Freepers say CBS used forgeries

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1210987/posts

[Fovea]

1. LOL

hee hee hee.

[cthrumatrix]

22. shit ...meet fan

[redqueen]

2. They truly cannot handle the truth

I guess it hurts their teensy weensy little brains.

[madmax]

3. Yes, it's a vast left wing conspiracy against bush.

Only their side tells the truth. :mad:

btw. does anyone know what OTER stand for in this memo?
...regarding Bush's OETR...

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf

[RichardRay]

30. OETR = 'Officer Efficiency and Training Report'

or something very like that.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[skypilot]

4. If they were forgeries...

...someone other than a dumbass freeper would have figured that out by now. Jesus, we are in the 21st century we don't need some goofy ass freeper to figure out if something is real or not. There are professionals out there that are very good at these things.

[cmd]

5. I guess that means the WH released forgeries yesterday

Poor freepers, the truth hurts.

[librechik]

8. yeah, didn't bartlett bring out the originals

even though they already released "ALL THE RECORDS" back in Feb? Can the freepers continue to just blind themselves to these routine lies?

[da_chimperor]

6. Aww, cute!

The freepers are exposing the 'liberal' media.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

7. Something like them...

Happened in France, back when. It was caused by an epidemic of ergotamine poisoning. Perhaps that is their explanation. Perhaps.

[Bandit]

13. I believe you are not that far from the truth

Call it tinfoil hat material but I have no other explanation for this nation becomming insane in the manner that it has. How can logical thinking people fall for this BS?

[rocktivity]

9. How do they explain the Bush White House releasing them, too?

And how do they explain The Bush White House's claim that they'd already released EVERYTHING they had?

:headbang:
rocknation

[John BigBootay]

62. The WH "released" the same docs that CBS faxed them n/t

[StClone]

10. Fatuous fonts -- lol

Grab hold of the inane font line. If that is the way to divorce yourself from the reality of the documents Freepers. The reason these documents have never come to light is because Rove purged ever record he could find -- but not all(!) as the investigation digs deeper.

[redqueen]

11. Who was the guy who claimed he witnessed the purge?

I need to look that up...

[redqueen]

12. No luck yet

If anyone else remembers the serviceman who has been quoted as saying that he saw people cleaning out bush's service files during the 2000 campaign, would you please be so kind as to post a link!

[Judi Lynn]

25. Does "Retired Lt. Col. Bill Burkett" sound familiar?

Guardsman says he saw Bush's Guard records in trash
Allbaugh: Charges are 'hogwash' and 'absolute garbage'
Friday, February 13, 2004 Posted: 11:01 AM EST (1601 GMT)

(CNN) -- A former officer in the Texas National Guard said Thursday he once overheard a conversation in which there was a request to sanitize President Bush's Guard records during Bush's tenure as Texas governor.

Soon afterward, he said, he saw Bush's Guard performance review in a trash can. Bush served in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War era.

Retired Lt. Col. Bill Burkett, who was then an adviser to the Texas adjutant general, who in that capacity serves as the commander of the state's National Guard, made the allegations.

He said that in 1997 he overheard Joe Allbaugh -- who was Bush's chief of staff at the time -- ask Guard commander Maj. Gen. Daniel James to gather Bush's files and "make sure there wasn't anything there that would embarrass the governor."
(snip/...)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/12/elec04.prez.bush.texas.records/

On edit:

Found a photo of _Bush's chief of staff Joe Allbaugh. Look how smug _Bush looks! Yuck.

[redqueen]

36. Well done - thank you!

I don't see how there can be any doubt the repukes are lying AGAIN.

For one thing, it's the ONLY thing they're good at.

For another thing... which 'full set' of documents did they just release?

:eyes:

[Athletic Grrl]

66. Holy crapola!

If the records were in fact thrown out, the logic for forgeries is just that much stronger. I would not put this past KKKarl Rove.

[louis-t]

26. found it!

http://onlinejournal.com/bush/110400Starr-Conover/110400starr-conover.html

edit: damn, too fast for me. good work.

[StClone]

28. Nice work

You done real good! :-)

[LuminousX]

14. Interesting

Notice the posts that basically say Bush should be cleared of these past crimes because he has proven himself to be a great leader. That latter element is obviously one of contention because his reelect numbers are very low for an incumbant.

Fundamentally, their core argument is might makes right. If you can get away with a crime and makes somthing of yourself, the crime no longer matters. I thought conservatives weren't supposed to be relativists.

[EST]

15. Actually, contrary to FR

Most, if not all those offices used IBM selectrics. This machine resembled a typewriter, but had a ball, about the size of a golf ball, on which were the characters. This system was fairly flexible, and if you needed a particular font, such as a typeset with scientific characters, all that was required was a different type ball. A few copies of the selectric are still around. They were enormously popular precisely because of the ability to use a different character set, and, although they could be difficult to repair (for computer division pukes like me), IBM had a huge office products division to maintain millions and millions of them.

[jmowreader]

29. They were also extremely rugged

We used to take a Selectric to the field in the 101st Airborne. We managed to drop it out of the back of the truck at least once every three exercises (we once managed to drop it six times on one exercise) and it worked fine, never skipped a beat.

I am in search of a working Selectric because it's not easy to fill in a three-part NCR form on a laser printer. Anyone got any leads?

[yardwork]

39. I have an old selectric. It doesn't work all that well, though.

I bought it for fifty bucks at a local university resale lot. Check ebay.

[htuttle]

40. It's easy to make a rugged typewriter if you don't care how much it weighs

What the hell was the case on those old Selectrics made of? Lead? Depleted Uranium?

[jmowreader]

53. Cast iron, I think

The guts of the Selectric were no slouch, either.

[Barad Simith]

58. Yes, I have one I'd like to sell

It's in storage, but nearby. I can get it today and check the model number, make sure everything's still working, etc., if you're interested.

[Renew Deal]

35. Here is the Selectric Composer

http://www.ibmcomposer.org/SelComposer/

According to this, it came out in 1966. http://www.etypewriters.com/history.htm

[Frodo]

44. If that's true...

you can supply us with a couple pdf links of the other documents produced this way? That would pretty much sovle the problem, wouldn't it?


None of the ANG records I've found online have any of the indications that are being pointed out as evidence of forgery.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

48. Hmmm

again on the side of justice and truth...you're just dying to see any credibility destroyed here, aren't you? :eyes:

[Frodo]

50. Wow! With a sig like "rational", I'd think

Truth would not be determined by partisan ideology.

"Bad news for Bush and good news for Kerry MSUT be true because I WISH it so".

I fall for that in Baseball and Football (the Ref is ALWAYS blind). Not in real life.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

51. But truth is colored by ideology

Especially when a contrary position is offered that is quantified by questionable facts. You focus on minutiae thinking that it masks intent. It doesn't.

[Frodo]

54. PERCEPTION of reality is colored by ideology...

... and only whan rationality and logic are removed.

The documents either ARE or ARE NOT real. I find it interesting to note (again) that most RWers see them as fake while most of us think they are real.

Of course I HOPE they are real, but I haven't seen enough evidence either way. Their production is somewhat suspicious, and the seriousness of the political consequences if they ARE forgeries make me want to follow up on every piece of it.

[MadHound]

16. Hah! These people are idiots! And I can say

After working in the print industry for six+ years. Their arguement of mono-spaced vs proportionally-spaced fonts would hold water, if it were true. But upon printing out a copy of that memo, and putting it under a printers layout guide(which has a font grid), it is obvious that the memo is correctly printed with a mono-spaced font, as was proper for typewriters of that day. It is also obvious that the document came off of a typewriter rather than forged on a computer because of the printing artifacts in the document itself. Things like the smudged crossbar on the "t", the heavy inking on the bottom of the "A", etc. While documents printed on a computer are perfect, barring printer malfunction, documents printed on a typewriter are filled with artifacts, smudges here, cut-offs there, due to the wear and tear on the typewriter itself. In fact, there is a whole branch of forensic science out there devoted to typewriter imperfections, and any document, given time and effort, can be traced back to the machine it was printed on due to the unique nature of the artifacts left on the paper.

These fools are simply brainwashing themselves, explaining away the unwanted knowledge with bullshit and lies. This seems to be a standard operating process with these people, and it is truly pathetic to witness. Oh well, let them have their delusions.

[jmowreader]

24. A little snippet of communist history for MadHound

Every communist country required you to register your typewriter. If you were able to find one, you had to take it to the police, who would type up a sample of text on it and retain the page.

If someone produced a political screed critical of the government on a typewriter, they'd just compare the screed to the samples they held, then arrest the registered owner.

[Frodo]

45. What font is it printed in? n/t

[Frodo]

47. Ok, on further review.

I don't know about 6+ years in the printing industry, but that is no mono-spaced font. I just pulled one back up and there's just no way.

[msmcghee]

17. In 1971 I worked for an office equipment dealer . .

. . as a repairman. I'm not absolutely sure about this but it seems to me that the two innovations that the IBM Selectric typewriter offered were the removable ball type fonts, and, since a cable pulled the font ball across the page, the distance it pulled could vary with the character being typed - thereby providing proportional spacing.

The detents for the spacing were on the ball itself and you could use a proportional ball for letters or a standard ball if you wanted to do a lot of text columns.

I definitely remember working for a typesetting company during those years that had an IBM Selectric Composer. It would even justify type on both the left and right side if you told it to go back and do that from copy you had already typed in. Of course, this would not have been used for typing memos or letters. But the technology was avaialble.

Are there any other old timers here who could confirm that for me?

[msmcghee]

18. Ooops, I missed RevRussell's post.

RevRussel, Do you specifically remember proprtional spacing on those? Or is that just my imagination?

[EST]

19. You are correct.

Folks today tend to think anything proir to the advent of the PC had to resemble the printuots that Moses brought down from the mountain.

[yardwork]

41. I can confirm that this technology was not new in the early 1980s

I worked in an office that used IBM Selectrics, and we considered buying a Composer. These machines were like primitive word-processors. They held small amounts of information in short-term memory, allowing reprinting of phrases or memos in different formats as you describe above.

Very early PCs were coming out at the time, and we decided not to buy the Composer, but wait until PCs were more advanced.

[Bridget Burke]

43. I used a Selectric Composer in the early 70's.....

To prepare copy for a hippy newspaper. You had to type everything twice, but it would produce justified columns of your chosen width. Then they were cut out & pasted up!

A few years before, I used a Selectric (or possibly an Executive) with proportional spacing.

[salvorhardin]

61. You're right

The Executive models could vary the spacing between letters, providing proportional spacing. As far as fonts, the Times Roman font dates back to the 1930s (if I recall correctly).

I learned to type for real (ten finger typing) on a 1970s era IBM Selectric (it was probably bought in 1967 when my school was built) that did all of the things you describe.

[rumguy]

20. This is the essence of their argument

"Every single one of the memos to file regarding Bush's failure to attend a physical and meet other requirements is in a proportionally spaced font, probably Palatino or Times New Roman. In 1972 people used typewriters for this sort of thing (especially in the military), and typewriters used mono-spaced fonts. "

And yet they offer no proof of anything they state.

[jmowreader]

21. As usual, the freepers don't know what they're talking about

Freepers claim that the documents are forgeries because they're set in a proportional font, which "did not exist" when Bush was in the National Guard.

That's bullshit.

There are two minor problems with this theory.

One, proportional fonts have been around for five hundred years. Bill Gates did NOT invent the proportional font. It's monospace type that's a recent invention.

And two, the highest-end IBM typewriter was the IBM Selectric Composer--and this general obviously had one. This is what IBM says about this machine:

The IBM SELECTRIC® Composer's escapement system employs rotating elements, rather than the conventional rack system, to provide the required displacement. This permits the basic unit of escapement to be varied, and allows the number of units per escapement cycle to vary in proportion to character width. In this paper the authors discuss the machine requirements that led to this approach and describe the elements that have evolved. The analysis used to evaluate the design (and modify it to some extent) is also recorded, in a separate section.

Translation: this typewriter was unique in that it could produce proportional text. A number of books were set on this device. The first six editions of "How To Keep Your Volkswagen Alive" were set on the Composer. It was very expensive, but if you were a real VIP, like a general, you had one because it made documents that couldn't be produced any other way.

[Renew Deal]

23. The IBM Selectric could change fonts...

<snip>
Instead of typebars it had a pivoting typeball that could be changed to use different fonts in the same document.

The ability to change fonts, combined with the neat regular appearance of the typed page, was revolutionary and marked the beginning of desktop publishing. Later models with selective pitch and built-in correcting tape carried the trend even further. Any typist could produce a polished manuscript.
<snip>

http://www.fact-index.com/i/ib/ibm_selectric_typewriter.html

[Cat Atomic]

27. You'd think they'd stop and ask themselves,

"if the WH released these documents... and they're forgeries... that means they're covering up or distracing from something more damaging." It wouldn't suggest Bush's innocence at all- especially when the issue at hand is politically connected people playing the system. It just makes it look like he's doing it again.

So even if those things were forgeries, it wouldn't save Bush. It'd damn him.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. YES!!! If they were forgeries then Bush could be impeached in a second!!!

Freepers are fucking IDIOTS!!!

[John BigBootay]

63. The WH didn't find or produce these memos, guys--

They were faxed to the WH by CBS and re-released by the WH later. No one is contending that the WH kept, hid or knew about these and CBS is not naming the source of the memos.

[Spazito]

64. CBS had experts examine the documents and they found no fault

with them. I don't see the freepers as exactly experts so will go with CBS on this one.

[Renew Deal]

34. This might explain your forgeries.

The Bushies forged them years ago.

http://onlinejournal.com/bush/110400Starr-Conover/110400starr-conover.html

[Renew Deal]

32. Anyone know if superscript was used in those days?

That's the only thing left to knock down.

[msmcghee]

38. Yes, many type balls had special characters.

For engineering and science departments, for example, fonts with superscript and subscript as well as Greek characters were available.

[yardwork]

42. Skilled secretaries typed everything before PCs

Nobody typed their own memos and letters. Highly-skilled secretaries typed everything, and they took pride in producing polished documents. It was nothing to pop the Selectric balls in and out several times while typing a single document. Subscripts, superscripts, italic type, bold type, etc. - all these would be used in the same memo or letter.

I remember the typing pool at the small college where I grew up. Those ladies typed about a hundred words a minute on rackety machines, producing beautiful documents in triplicate with carbon paper. They rarely made a mistake. Everything was spelled perfectly. Spacing was an art.

[yellowcanine]

46. Also Mag card IBMs were available in late 60s - They were really

primitive word processors and could do all of the stuff the Freeps are yapping about.

[juajen]

65. Yes, indeed, I was one of those skilled ladies

A legal secretary, assistant and administrator. Too bad skills like this are not needed anymore. Also used my Gregg shorthand for many years, also unnecessary in these enlightened times. It helped raise five children and the money was very good for a "woman".

[Gothmog]

33. LOL Freepers are so stupid that this is funny

The freepers are so stupid that it is funny. They simply can not deal with the truth or their heads would explode.

The morans on FR are discussing how to get Rush and Drudge to notice their "discovery." They hope to get their "discovery" out to the world through Drudge and Rushie. That is funny in and of itself.

Stupid Freepers. Keep up your good work. It is so very very funny.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. Yes show the world they were forged so we can show Bush is a criminal

[dryan]

52. IBM equipment....

did have proportional spacing in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The Selectric was the best typewriter ever made. It had all kinds of interchangable balls which were put into a slot in the middle of the patent.

[Snazzy]

49. IBM's first proportional typewriter--dates to 1944

The IBM Executive and Wheel models also were proportional (The selectric was not--at least the ones I've used).

That is an IBM font, Prestige Elite (it's not a Times):



Also, keep in mind this is an Air Base. They had a need for typewriters that produced flight plans, weather documents, and such--not just memos. I.e. they needed access to technical symbols, ordinals, etc., for everyday use.

[Snazzy]

60. wrong font

Adjutant IBM font--missed the closed 4 before.

[Gothmog]

55. Freeper on Disney Board are attacking CBS documents

It is sad but the Freeper theory has made its way onto a disney discussion board. See http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=0558a126a074758f39009411d2b00c65&threadid=641542 The idiots are just copying the stupid theory from the freepers.

[rawstory]

56. SOURCE for DRUDGE 'news' story heads Conservative Victory Committee

Don't be so gullible, guys. CNS is a conservative propaganda machine.

Source of claims CBS documents faked heads Conservative Victory Committee

By John Byrne | Raw Story Editor

Internet ‘journalist’ Matt Drudge has posted an extremist claim posing as news on his website, The Drudge Report, which suggests that the new documents that indict President Bush’s failures in the National Guard are actually fakes.

The source of his story, Cybercast News Service, is a well-known conservative ‘news’ machine headed by L. Brent Bozell III, who also serves as the head of the Conservative Victory Committee. CNS News was founded in 1988 to combat the “ liberal bias in many news outlets”.

...

Here’s a quick statement from his online autbiography.

Mr. Bozell also serves as Executive Director of the Conservative Victory Committee (CVC). An independent multi-candidate political action committee, the CVC has helped to elect dozens of conservative candidates over the past ten years. He has also served as National Finance Chairman for the Buchanan for President campaign, and Finance Director and later President of the National Conservative Political Action Committee.

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=291

links to his online bio at site

[rawstory]

59. and his other 'source' sits ON THE BOARD of a conservative thinktank

http://rawstory.com

[bobbyboucher]

57. Denial is a powerful thing.

Complicity on the other hand is treasonous.

[BigBigBear]

67. OK, fine

where the physical exam documents to prove it?