Gay folks, would you switch to straight if you could?

[GreenPartyVoter]

Poll question: Gay folks, would you switch to straight if you could?

Oh man. Had to sit through Dr. James Dobson and his 5 warnings of a "pre-homosexual child" in Sunday School today.

Now, if you've read my posts before you know that I am a liberal Christian who married into a conservative Evangelical family and that my husband refuses to attend a church where I would be more comfortable. (And when it comes to topics like homosexuality and abortion, we don't discuss them in favor of maintaining family harmony.)

Anyway, long story short, though I disagree with some of their doctrinal stances and occasionally feel like I am trapped in a cult, for the most part I love my church family.

But watching that Focus on the Family video really had my teeth on edge. On the one hand, I didn't want to get into it in class. If my hubby felt embarassed by me and my position on the issue, it would have led to a BIG fight on the ride home in front of the small fry.

On the other hand, I got sick to death of listening to all the crap about the "abomination of this lifestyle". All the poor people out there in the world starving or dying from lack of medication or unable to better their lives due to lack of education and THIS is what gets their panties in a bunch?

So, I managed to find a way to NOT start a fight with hubby but talked about the whole nature versus nurture issue and made the group focus on the nature part. (Dobson says there isn't one, but I know for a fact that is not true.) I know I didn't change any minds today, but Idid see a few wheels turning, I think, at least as far as to the possibility of there being a biological basis in many cases.

/end of rant. Please, Lord, let this Bringing Up Boys series be overwith soon. I am sorry I ever raised my hand and said I would be interested in studying it for Sunday School. *blah*

---------------------------------------------------------------------

And God told His children: "I love you. Play nice."

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[ropi]

1. OMG

what sort of poll is this?

would you wish to become gay if you could?

i know that you don't mean for this post to be offensive, but it is!

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. That was my point though. That's what Dobson is saying, that you could

switch if you want to. You have no idea what this guy is like.

[ropi]

14. you're right..

I have no idea what this Dobson person is like; moreover, I have no idea what your church family is like. However, I would suggest that as a liberal christian you could have made or taken a stance against such a showing as his video in sunday school. No one forced you to sit through that video and you could have called those persons into question who desired to show it in the first place. How sad it must be to seek fellowship at the detriment of other people. I don't find this Christian at all. I find it asinine and demeaning.

I realize that your spouse will not go where you wish to worship, but your silence in that matter and in the gay issue 'does not protect you'(being forced to watch such stuff and not speaking up), I feel makes you complicit in the act of discriminating against GLBT persons.


edit: passion caused me to omit a phrase

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. I have two little boys. "Bringing up Boys" sounded like it would be

useful to me.

So far it has not.

And I am sorry if you think I am being complicit in an act of discrimination. However, we (hubby and I) have agreed to disagree on the issues of abortion and homosexuality, especially in front of the kids because they are not subjects to talk about in front of small children. And it does not seem likely either will change views. (I know I won't, and so far in 17 years of being together he has not either no matter what I say.)

I also know that my husband's bias against homosexuals is SO strong that he WOULD forgo the unspoken truce we have of not discussing it, and seeing as how we drive 45 minutes home from church that would have been 45 minutes my 4 and 6 year old boys would have either been listening to their dad rant. On the scale of what is important, I consider I have more responsibility in protecting my children than I do in engaging in a fight I cannot win with my husband just out of pure ideology.

[yardwork]

81. As the mother of two boys, I am deeply saddened and troubled

by your posts. I am straight, but I have many gay and lesbian friends, and they have suffered in unbelievable ways because of the bigotry in our society.

I am certain, based on talking with my friends, that they were born gay or lesbian. There is no way they could change, anymore than I could become lesbian. I might be able to fake it if society demanded it of me, but I would be miserable.

A lot of adolescent suicides are thought to be directly related to the child's recognition that he or she is gay, and the consequent feeling of utter hopelessness they face in our society.

Please don't raise your children to feel bigotry toward gays and lesbians. What if one of them is gay themselves?

[K-W]

32. Dont be so hard on her.

You are right, and it bothers me as well, but for some people in some situations standing up for for what is right can be an act that requires amazing courage. We should never critisize someone for lacking amazing courage. We are none of us always brave or always right.

[ropi]

38. hard?

I am not being hard on her at all. What I am being hard on is the fact that we have someone here who does not speak up when she sees or views something that is wrong, and then comes here to ask a question in order to get a dialogue moving. While I support giving everyone voice and support everyone in the dialogue, I must say that I am horribly astonished that a person who fashions herself as liberal would wish to silence herself to keep the peace. Futhermore, her using "the children" is a terrible excuse. I believe that she could have easily dicussed this with her husband at another time and place. I wasn't saying have an all out war in the car for 45 minutes, but to come here in order to have voice on a topic which has obviously bothered her truly needs to be discussed with the person who she mentioned in her first post, her husband.

For all she knows, one of her children may be a GLBT person, one of his or her friends may be, and she has given an example to them of how not to speak up just to keep the peace.

[K-W]

41. Some people arent willing to sacrifice thier marriage for riteousness.

You are out of line. Your outrage is misplaced. You cant hold it against someone that they arent willing to destroy relationships over a cause.

[ropi]

43. kw

i am not asking that either. she is the one who wrote earlier that she feels such conversations, which push persons outside of his or her comfort zone, is good for growth.

[K-W]

47. You are making far too many assumptions about her marriage.

How could you possibly know enough to know that this would be a good idea for her relationship? Perhaps it would lead to growth. Perhaps her husband would choose his beliefs over her, leave her, take the kids and raise them to be just like him and leave her in a financial pit.

Now I dont know if that is the case, but you dont know if it isnt, and unless you knew thier relationship intimately, you shouldnt make such judgements with such certainty.

[ropi]

45. out of line

ah..yes, i am out of line...for your comfort, I'll silence myself.

Look, Oh, DU'ers how homophobia in all forms raises it's ugly head!

[K-W]

50. Holy charecter assault batman.

Give me a break. I am a homophobe because I think it is unfair of you to redicule somebody for whom believes the price is too high to stand up for what she believes in. She is oppressed. Her community and husband are oppressing her. She could stand up for what is right no matter what, but few Human Beings are capable of that. So while I think you would be fine to encourage her to stand up and fight, you are out of line to scold her.

And would you please refrain from assaulting my charecter if you intend to continue this discussion.

[ropi]

53. Homophobia was not intended for you, personally KW

If I wanted to say that you were a homophobe, I could have written "K-W is a ........"

It was the act of silencing that I was referring to as homophobic (I did write in 'all forms').

[K-W]

55. Thank you for clearing that up.

And I dont think you should silence your opinion, I disagree with your approach and your judgement of Greenpartyvoter. I think in her situation it is understandable that has a hard time standing up for herself and what she believes in and that she deserves support and encouregement, not redicule. She is in a very tricky situation, and alot is on the line for her.

Edit: gender agreement

[ropi]

57. i admit...

Maybe my approach is confrontational, but it was meant to call out just what the real issue was in this topic. From what I can see in this thread and in this discussion is a lot of confessional tone and some true abuse on many levels.

[ropi]

61. I support her

100% and Kayell's recommendations are sound. I can see that she informs herself and reads up on the topic and for that I am pleased. However,when I see a person crying out for his or her voice to be heard, I am going to push that person to speak up and to have the voice heard.

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. You are lucky that you and your partner are in complete accord

on every topic and that your own children are never at risk for being caught in the middle of a huge fight.

Considering you were not in the house when we last went round on this discussion (HE initiated it, not me, and when the kids were around) and went on and on about how I would not be in heaven when I died, and you did not see the fists punching the wall or hear the invectives flying around, I guess you don't understand.

But you try to imagine being 4 or 6 years old and hearing your father say that mommy won't be in heaven with you for all of eternity. I know for a fact how scary that is because my brother and I spent years tormented over the possibility that our dad would not be in heaven with us because our grandfather said so. I know what spiritual abuse is like and I will protect my kids from it. As long as the church is innocuous enough in the Sunday school for them at their young level of classes *god made the world and loves everyone in it and didn't he make some very cute bunnies stuff) and they are not being exposed to the legalistic crap that gets laid on you when they are older, then no, I won't kick and scream about wanting to go to another church.

And since opening my mouth AT ALL on that subject in class was taking a risk of repeating that incident all over again, yeah, I guess I was braver than I could have been. Not heroic, no. Not today. That day is coming, but not yet. I am not ready to take on the entire church with zero backup yet. I have a lot of researching and studying to do before I can do that. This is a place that thrives on scriptural study, so I am going to make darn sure that when I DO say something about this subject I am well-learned enough to be able to say why their beliefs are wrong and not just cause I think it _feels_ wrong.

[kayell]

54. Green Party Voter - This is IMPORTANT

You are in an abusive relationship. Even if those fists hit only the wall and did not touch you, you clearly saw them as a threat. Your behavior in response is exactly like the way abused women react.

You NEED to get to some help and counseling NOW for women in abusive relationships. That is a LOT more important for your children than some myth of keeping the peace.

[GreenPartyVoter]

56. Actually, I did not see the fists as a threat to ME

but I was worried that the kids would. Was also worried about the psychological damage that could take place there for them.

And any way, I am sad to say his fists were not the only ones flying. I was slamming down books and whatnot too.

WHICH is why I said that we have agreed to disagree and not discuss it, at least when the kids are around. We know from history that it is a super-charged topic for us, we don't seem to handle debating it maturely very well, and it is VERY bad for the children to watch us disintegrate like that over something they have no idea about. I can't debate it with him. He is homophobic and hiding it behind his religion, and I have told him so.

But he also know that I will not tolerate him saying anything in our house in front of the kids about it. He can switch WILL and GRACE as soon as it comes on, but he knows if he makes a derogatory comment about the theme of the show I will go up one side and down the other of him and we will be right back to the screaming match again.

[kayell]

58. Here are some #s you need, keep them for when you are ready

and remember that abuse is a lot more than actual physical damage.

http://www.sboard.org/SHELTERS/ME.HTM

I recognize this. I've been there - a long time ago.

[GreenPartyVoter]

60. Thanks. I will keep them around

I don't think I will need them, but you never know.

There is a downside to forming relationships at 15 years old, and that is that it has taken forever for the two of us to grow up and deal with each other as adults. (And I shoulder much of the responsibility there, too. As I said, I am just as good at throwing fits and stomping as he is.)

[K-W]

59. On edit, I will mind my own business.

La de da.

[belle]

84. have to agree with kayell there.

[LTRS]

69. How sad for you

But if you are really interested in knowing more about this subject, try this site http://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu.htm

It speaks to all sides of the issue, so not only will you get some decent talking points, you'll also get a preview of the arguments you're likely to hear from the opposing point of view.

[Terran]

27. It's not offensive at all.

It's a legitimate question, and one that I imagine every GLBT person has contemplated. For me the answer is: no way. That would be no different from changing myself into, say, a woman living in 18th century Japan--an entirely different person, in other words.

[GreenPartyVoter]

31. Exactly. I can't imagine trying to change something like that

when it is an integral part of who you are. And when Dobson points out the ambivilance some gays have with their sexuality and says "Deep down they know it's wrong" I have to say "No, deep down they worry about the bigotry that goes along with it."

[Liberal Veteran]

3. I wouldn't trade the 15 years with my partner for anything in the world.

Would life had been EASIER if I was straight? Maybe. Of course, then I would probably have been a toffee nosed little bigot like my two older brothers are who are heterosexual.

If anything, being gay has made me a better person if not a person with an easier life.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I think you have a point. It's true that hardship builds character. I

think most people who never venture outside of their comfort zone don't really develop very deeply.

[jdj]

4. that seals it. this is child abuse. Dobson and "fucking up the family"

need to be sent packing. He's giving people liscense to abuse their kids. This sick, twisted motherfucker.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. He even had a licensed psychologist backing up everything

he wanted to hear. And they were whining about being persecuted, that the American Psychological and Psychiatrists Societies (or however they are named) and the major publishing houses, would not touch their bona fide research that made their case that homosexuality is predictable, preventable, and treatable.

These people are stuck back in the Victorian era when they thought women's moodiness was caused by the womb wandering around the body and throwing her hormones out of whack. *hence the name hysteria*

[jdj]

19. I'm horrified that a church would allow someone to come in

and give parents liscense to psychologically torment their children.

[tigereye]

35. as far as I know

there is no "bona fide" research of that type. The APA etc, resolved that issue long ago... and at the time it was quite acrimonious, from what I have read. How anyone could be peddling that kind of crap is incredible. It is very sad that a psychologist ( or anyone for that matter) would stoop to supporting something so absurd. And to be telling children things that are that absurd and promote such intolerance is also quite disturbing.

Sigh.

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. Yes, it was very disturbing. They were talking about

the decision made in 1973 when they (the APA) changed their stance on the subject of homosexuality and that one of the major doctors who backed that change had switched his opinion again in favor of what Focus on the Family is peddling.

I'd like to do more research on that to see whether there is even a kernel of truth to that!

[tigereye]

86. well it's a little too late for that!

30 years is a long time. There was a very interesting interview about this on This American Life last year, where the interviewer interviewed her grandfather, a psychiatrist, (I think it was her GF) about his role in the debates at the 73 convention that shaped the change. It was a fascinating discussion, although intense, as that NPR series tends to be.

I would have to check to see what the current state of research is at this point, they don't usually go back on major decisions they have made unless there is a ton of evidence and I suspect that research of that type would not be well looked on - I can imagine who would be paying for it! Now you have made me curious - maybe I will have a look. :)

I am always stunned when people ignore the status quo and decades of real research and social change, for these wild, dogmatically and politically motivated goose chases.

[vajraroshana]

74. I think that they were lying about the persecution

IIRC, the psychological associations still accept "ego dystonic" homosexuality as an illness. Their so called bona fide research that they are referring to most likely refers to this form.

The "ego dystonic" part refers to gay people that are profoundly unhappy and distraught with their gay identity. With counselling some of these people may be able to come to terms with their identity, but for a small fraction that can't there are some therapists who treat them to "become" nominally heterosexual, or at least to fake it as such (in some sad hope that their profound ego dystonia may be calmed). Of course it's controversial, but I don't think any legitimate researchers are going to be snubbed, just the ones that pose as legitimate researchers while in fact pushing an anti-gay agenda with bad science and pseudo-therapies that are devastating and damaging to the unfortunate individuals caught in their world-view.

Ego dystonic homosexuality is "predictable": grow up gay in an intolerant bigoted fundamentalist homophobic environment.

..."preventable": enlighten people about the intrinsic evil of their homophobia and its devastating consequences.

..."treatable": unconditional love and acceptance.

[vajraroshana]

82. On a more personal note...

Me and my lover/huzband will be celebrating our 18th anniversary next week (on the 20th). Eighteen years with a loving decent caring man and the love and support I've had from my non-homophobic relatives (even though they're few and far between) and the love and support from his side of the family have been all the therapy I've ever needed to overcome any ego dystonia that I suffered due to being raised in a homophobic/gay-hating environment. And becoming Buddhist 15 years ago and having the most wonderful spiritual teachers and friends that one could ever hope for.

Like I was implying, religiously motivated hatred is predictable, preventable, and entirely treatable.

[GreenPartyVoter]

87. Happy Anniversary :^) I'm glad you

have had some family and friends who could support you. (From my original post I think people were thinking that _I_ believe that homosexuality is curable and wrong, which I don't. I hope I didn't offend you with my badly worded posts.) Did you also find over the years that you had to end relationships with others who were not supportive? Or that you were disowned by any family members?

I'll support my boys if either of them is gay. Don't know what my husband and his minister father and brother will do, but I don't care. By the time the kids are old enough to approach me and say, "Hey, this is who I am" they'll be ready to deal with mom and dad and grandpa and uncle having a showdown on the subject. And I'll be hauling them off to a different church, too. (Although I want to do that whether they are gay or not just because I don't want them to get indoctrinated in most conservative evangelical beliefs. So I will probably take them to the United Church of Christ or Unitarian Universalist, which both affirm loving homosexual relationships are right and also support pluralistic universalism.)

I am sick to death of hiding my beliefs like this and worrying what the fallout will be if I tell the people I know what I think. But the family I married into refused to come to my wedding if we had drinking and dancing at the reception (so, we didn't have those things), tried to break hubby and I up in high school because he wrote a slightly sexy letter to me, and hung up on me when I tried to explain why the Iraq war is wrong.

Can only imagine what will happen when I tell them that I believe:

Jesus is A way, not the ONLY way

Homosexual couples deserve the same rights as hetero couples

Abortion should remain legal

There is no such thing as Hell (though I think there may be a purgatory of sorts, in the sense that either we reincarnate or we experience our "sins" from the eyes of our victims. I believe that we are meant to grow and learn. Hell doesn't teach us a thing, except fear.)

I don't take the Bible literally, and I think it is right screwy on a lot of subjects.

I am not offended at the thought that maybe Adam and Eve looked like apes.

[serryjw]

91. Happiness is GOOD for America!

Whether you are a happy straight or Gay couple being happy in a satisfying relationship only makes us more productive individuals. We all are looking to take this journey with someone...Why on earth should a Gay person be denied this fundamental right.As a straight woman I have been fundraising for HRC to hopefully secure your rights to get legitimately married someday

Congrads on your anniversary!


Namaste!

[gospelized]

6. not a chance

not for all the money in the world.

[gospelized]

8. and re: nature vs. nurture

who the hell cares?!

i haven't given a minute a thought to "why" i'm gay. i don't care. it's who i am and i don't question it.

[AntiFascist]

7. Hypocrisy

How many right-wingers switch to gay whenever they have the urge?

www.blogactive.com

[jdj]

11. blogactive rocks.

thanks for posting it.

[K-W]

9. A good point to make

to those who have a hard time dealing with biological causes of behavior (and most very religious people have a hard time with it, because it violates thier worldview) is that homosexuality has existed in societies since the beginning of recorded history, it is not some modern movement that needs to be wiped out. If it is a sin it is a sin not uncommon to the human experience and as such the approach to homosexuals should be no different than the approach to any kind of sinner. It isnt in the ten commandments, it wasnt one of Jesus' major points. There are plenty of problems that the bible places a higher priority on than homosexuality. Considering how rampant adultery is and the fact that murder still exists, I think it is a bit early to be focusing much good christian attention on the problem of homosexuality.

[jdj]

15. great book on animal homosexualtiy:

"Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Diversity in Nature:

This is a species by species guide to natural homosexuality documented by wildlife biologists and zoologists. Needless to say, only a handful of species covered in the 700 pages fail to display forms of homosexual behavior. (I say forms because there is SO MUCH variation, female to female, male to male, and a few species are transexual (some fish) so they can change their gender every few years and preference as well). Once you have read this book, or just thumbed through it, it will become painfully clear that homophobia is nothing more than a control issue and in it's institutionalized (religious) form it is simply a fight to control breeding behavior among clan members.

[kayell]

17. I second that recommendation. Excellent book

[ezee]

24. WELL SAID!

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. I brought up the point that my brother was into guys for a while

and you know what? Once growing hips and breasts and he went to the doctor to find out what was wrong, it turned out he has XXY chromosomes.

And these people are STILL telling me "But yeah, he had the choice to NOT be with guys even if he wanted to" and I said, but technically, at the basest level he IS a girl, so therefore why was him liking guys wrong? Because he only had male plumbing?

Then I told them that he was put on testosterone to stop the wash of female hormones from making his hips and breasts develop further. Know what happened? He went back to liking girls more than boys.

NOW. No way do I believe that this is proof that every case of homosexuality is "curable" But I used it to point out that YES there has to be, in some cases at least, a physiological factor and that they need to get off this whole "His mama coddled him too much and it made him gay" crap.

Then I told them about the male twins born a few decades ago where one of them had his penis accidentally cauterized off after cirmcumcision. The doctors and family made the decision that rather than have him grow up a boy without a penis they would carve out a vagina and raise him as a girl.

Guess what? Didn't work. The poor kid, raised to be a super girly girl was still male at the DNA level. All they did, unwittingly, was screw him up. (Last I heard he had a sex change back to male but was still dealing with a major identity crisis.)

[jdj]

21. If this is the same kid I know about, he committed suicide.

Amazing that DOCTORS would make this mistake.

[antigone382]

22. Actually he recently committed suicide.

He got married and wrote a book, if it's the guy that I'm thinking of, but I guess it was just too much for him.

[K-W]

26. the problem with this issue is you are fighting more than homophobia

You are fighting a philosophy of human behavior, one that all but completely rejects scientific approaches to human behavior. Without free will the entire christian system of morality and ethics absolutely crumbles.

You can create some wiggle room, many christians create a line and catagorize some behaviors as beyond our control and some behaviors as matters of will, but that philosophy is not consistant if you believe every word in the bible is true. So you are not only asking them to get over thier homophobia, but also thier conceptualizations of human behavior and its relationship to thier faith.

God wouldnt have said homosexuality was wrong if it wasnt a sin. And if it is a sin it must be something they chose to do. To argue that even one homosexual did not choose it is to argue that god was wrong.

I still think the best line of reason with someone who is hoplessly devout is that the approach to sins is not an approach of hate or coersion. You cant force sinners to change, you cant bribe or pressure sinners to attone and devote thier hearts to Jesus. (you can probably wrap this up in christian language better than I can) You can only share the good news with them and live life as an example. If they choose to walk the wrong path in spite of God, you let that be an issue between them, their soul and god. Jesus taught through love, acceptance and by example. He saved sinners who chose to be saved, he didnt force those not ready to make that choice.

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Yes, today the Pastor was talking about how the laws of physics

have never changed and neither has God's law. All I can say is, there is no way this church is an exact recreation of the life style and worship style of 2000+ years ago.

He even talks about how we have to think about the Scripture when we read it, and make it work in modern times. BUT while he clearly thinks it is fine to serve lobster at the Church picinic or have a female minister, homosexuality is a no-no. And he does not even see that he is "picking and choosing" how interprets the scripture, just like he feels liberal Christians are wont to do.

[kayell]

37. He must have missed the part in the NT where Jesus fulfills the law

and the New Covenant is established. I gather pork, poly-cotton blends and shellfish are big no-nos in your church, hmm. (added: oops, apparently not) Man needs to catch up on his Christian theology.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Yep. I am tempted to send him that letter

to Doctor Laura that is circulating the 'net. Pretty sure Reverned Ray has a copy of it on Liberals Like Christ.

[Templar83]

63. I personally have a problem

with the fact that you have grouped "murder," "adultury," and "homosexuality" into the same category. Despite the fact that you probably, in all human civility, never intended such a disparity it nonetheless now exists.

I am not in any way a fan of picking needles from haystacks but this paradigm makes me very uncomfortable even at first, second and third glances! We talk about making theosophic progress in regards to beliefs held toward the homosexual community and yet we place homosexuality in a category with "murder" and "adultry." Inadvertently, whether or not you left a disclaimer that it was not listed among the jesus no-nos, you have LUMPED homosexuality in with cardinal sins!

Furthermore, you have underscored this point by refering to it as "the problem of homosexuality."

I would personally like to say OUCH.

[K-W]

65. You seem to have missed my point entirely.

I was suggesting a way you could convince a fundementalist to be less active and militint in opposing homosexuality by appealing to his beliefs. Some people unfortunately will, for thier entire lives, believe that every word in the bible is true. For them it is a fundemental truth that homosexuality is a sin and wrong just like any sin. My point was that even if we assume that it is a sin, you can still make a case against actively trying to force homosexuals to reform, and that their methodology is not in line with the teachings of christ.

I was not comparing Murder and Adultry to homosexuality, I was contrasting them. My entire point is that they are very different, even though according to fundementalist christians they are all sins.

[Templar83]

66. I understood your point

I am, however, saying that whether you realize it or not, your language is indicitive of things unsaid:

«Considering how rampant adultery is and the fact that murder still exists, I think it is a bit early to be focusing much good christian attention on the problem of homosexuality.»

In the above phrase, yes you have made a contrast, but you are putting them in the same category.

[K-W]

67. No, you clearly didnt.

Of course I realize my language did that, that was my point. My point is that sometimes you need to appeal to people using thier logic, not yours. My point is that some people will never believe that homosexuality is not wrong because they will always believe god said it was, but that you can still appeal to these people to be kinder to thier fellow man by appealing to thier beliefs, no matter how flawed they are.

I put them in the same category, becuase for a fundementalist christian they are in the same catagory. God said both were wrong. And nothing you can say to them will convince them to give up thier faith in god and the bible. They wont even listen to you.

[Templar83]

68. And moreover

You do not even see the marginalization that you invoke in the begining :

«I was suggesting a way you could convince a fundementalist to be less active and militint in opposing homosexuality by appealing to his beliefs.»

So, we then reaffirm for the militant fundementalist that homosexuality is wrong, like murder and adultery, but our attention for this sin can wait until later?

This in no way modifies the belief. If anything it will give more amunition.

[K-W]

71. Fine argue with walls, try to move mountains.

Try to get fundementalist christian homophobes to admit that the bible is false.

Good luck.

Meanwhile stop accusing me reaffirming anything. The tone of what I am saying is "Homosexuality is not wrong, but even if you refuse to believe it, you still shouldnt abuse/assualt/deprogram/legislate against homosexuals."

How you could possibly see this as a negative message is beyond my comprehension. Im sure a fundementalist homophobe needs me to tell him how to feel about homosexuality.

[Templar83]

73. Peace

I was not attacking you, sir. I attacked your language. All I was asserting is that you should choose the words that are to be vehicles for your ideas better. The language you used actually gave an impression of something completely different. If you had simply said what you just said above, I would never have had an "ouch" moment.

Peace.

[K-W]

75. That's what i did say. You misread.

Perhaps next time before you jump to conclusions, you should think about context. The context is talking to devout fundementalist christians. And I suggested for those of them that refuse to believe that homosexuality is not a choice you can argue a less aggressive stance towards homosexuality. That is what I said. I used language that argues from a christian fundementalist point of view, and I explained why I did it.

And where I sit, accusing someone of spreading bigotry is an attack.

[Templar83]

77. I'm out

I do believe this discussion has become moot. Emotional responses are now being hurled instead of logic.

[K-W]

79. Did you read my post?

I presented a perfectly logical argument.

Meanwhile, rather than address my points you choose to act superior, pretend that you have been some emotionless robot in this discussion, and pick up your toys and go home.

It is such a childish argument technique and it doesnt become someone who pretends to be transcendently superior.

(you see two can play at the pretending to be a genuis game)

[LTRS]

83. It wasn't in Jesus' "minor" points either

In fact, he never saw fit to mention it at all, even though it clearly existed in his day. Thing about freeper style christians is that they pick and choose their way through the bible, deciding what applies to the rest of us and what applies to them - and just making up stuff they think should be there. And very, very few of them follow the teachings of Jesus from what I can see.

[Lefta Dissenter]

12. Holy (no pun intended) COW!

You can't imagine that your troubles will be overwith at the end of the 'Bringing up Boys' series! Not that you asked, and it's none of my business, but if I were you, I'd get with hubby into some counseling with a Christian counselor who doesn't belong to either of your preferred churches. EQUAL PARENTING is going to be a real challenge, and avoiding speaking your views just to prevent a blow-up in front of Junior is not going to sit well with you.

Sorry to sound so negative. Parenting is hard enough without having disagreement on the important issues like sexuality, etc.

[kayell]

13. 2 questions unrelated to the poll

How does Dobson combine the idea of "pre-homosexual" children with the standard rw "christian" idea that homosexuality is a choice rather than genetic?

Why do you spend time with people who are so clearly against much of what you believe? Is your marriage so controlling that you can't choose to attend a different church than that which your husband attends? One that would be more compatible with your beliefs? This IS a major part of your life. :shrug: I know that isn't any of my business really, but you did bring it up.

[ropi]

18. I have to go with kayell...

I have to go with Kayell on these questions...you appear to be someone who has studied some history and some gender-related theories.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Dobson is blaming it on the Mamas. They coddled

their sons too much yadda yadda.

As to the other part, my FIL is a minister and easily upset. I mean the man once fled our home in a rage because he found non-alcoholic beer bottles in the basement. (I later learned his father was an alcoholic, so that helped me to understand what the REAL issues was. He was hiding behind the Bible but it was really a personal situation that was bothering him.)

Marriage is about compromise. While I am frustrated that my hubby won't compromise with me on this, I am not going to cut my nose off to spite my face. I 'm not going to kick up a fuss and make things unhappy at home for our little ones over what brand of church we go to. And I am not going to confuse them by going to a different church than they do. (Daddy will only take them to his because he is scared of them going to Hell. :eyes: )

Anyway, I can get liberal fellowship here online :) so I am only dealing with that church 2 hours a week. My kids are more influenced by me than by church when it comes to understanding God (so far, any way). And I figure that I may be doing some of these people good at church. Planting a seed, so to speak.

And if I do see the day where my kids are starting to get that glazed over Bible thumper look *thank heavens their dad is not like that* I will whisk them off to try other churches. I fully intend for them to see what other denominations and faiths are liek when they are old wnough to understand them. But right now, at 4 and 6, all they know is that God loves them. (Which is all you ever really need to know anyway. :) )

---------------------------------------------------------------------
And God told His children: "I love you. Play nice."

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[kayell]

28. Well, we all make our own choices in life, but

it seems your choices are being made for you. I wonder why it is (almost) always women who do the compromising in a marriage and who use that line. I never hear it from men.

Added: you may want to consider what a lot of us here are saying about staying true to oneself for your own situation.

[ropi]

39. becasuse

in a heterosexist patriarchal paradigm, woman always has to give in...

[ropi]

40. becasuse

in a heterosexist patriarchal paradigm, woman always has to give in...ya can't upset daddy or hubby...

[kayell]

42. I'm kinda hoping the poster will start asking herself these questions

It sounds like a horrible situation to be in - much akin to living in the closet your whole life. Maybe posting the situation here is a first step to realizing that it is harming her. I hope so.

Honestly, this reminds me a lot of things I have heard from abused women, as far as the justifications.

[kayell]

51. Oh, hell, guess that comparison is dead on. Just read post #46

Fists hitting the wall etc.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Of course I ask myself these questions

and I am counting down the days til when my kids are old enough that I feel they can deal with mom and dad having loud differences of opinions with each other without worrying about eternal lakes of fire waiting for one or the other of us.

Believe me!

For now, I rebel quietly and maintain my liberal christians website, and I keep whispering in my children's ears what _I_ believe about God so that their father's denomination does not get the last word in.

[Morning Dew]

70. You already lost the debate within your family.

Your children will grow up learning that this virulent homophobia is good and right.

I feel sad for your predicament, but I don't see how enabling your hubby now will ever help you later.

[grace0418]

85. I have to agree

I'm glad you have a liberal community here, and I wouldn't want you to feel ganged up on. God knows I'm new around here so maybe I shouldn't be chiming in but I just had to say something as a woman who has also been with her husband for a long time (since we were 18, although we didn't marry until we were 27). Marriage is about compromise, that is true, and certainly my husband and I disagree about a lot of things. When we first met he was homophobic. And I eventually told him that I couldn't be with someone who had a prejudice about another human being like this. I woudn't marry a racist, why should I allow a homophobe in my life? I said I wouldn't have children with him unless I knew he would love, nuture and accept them no matter what. That's what really got him, because he knows the kinds of hoops he has to jump through for his parents approval and he would never want that to happen to our kids. I'm proud to say that he is now completely free of his homophobia!

When I think back on my own childhood, I think I was more confused by inconsistency than I was by disagreement. I didn't understand why my father could claim to be a devout Christian and go on and on about the ten commandments but then make comments about gays. My mom told me later that she hated when he talked like that, and I said "Well why didn't you say anything?!" She said she didn't want to have a fight in front of us. I personally would've preferred the fight over the confusing messages.

I say you should go ahead and disagree. Your children may not understand right now but when they're adults they'll respect you. And if you are truly worried about real or perceived violence or threats of violence, then I agree that you should consider whether or not your relationship is abusive. Good luck!

[GreenPartyVoter]

88. Welcome to DU and thanks, I will

have it out with him at some point. But not until the kids are older. 4 and 6 are too young for this. They still sleep with security blankets and the lights blazing all night long. *l* Speaking up now (beyond telling my husband not to say bad things about gays in our house), while I may be aiding the GLBT cause, I would simultaneously be screwing up my boys. In the grand scheme of things, that just doesn't feel right to me.

[ropi]

30. hmmm

"Marriage is about compromise. While I am frustrated that my hubby won't compromise with me on this, I am not going to cut my nose off to spite my face. I 'm not going to kick up a fuss and make things unhappy at home for our little ones over what brand of church we go to. And I am not going to confuse them by going to a different church than they do. (Daddy will only take them to his because he is scared of them going to Hell. :eyes: )"

Indeed, it is about compromise. How fitting that you have to watch such a video and live in such a way that your voice does not mean anything! You're not going to kick up a fuss? Ok, I'll kick up a fuss about it. Your excuse for not standing up for your rights or your belief concerning this video demonstrate that you have no desire to even assist or help GLBT persons. Your stance is total's bullshit and your excuse for wanting to keep the peace at home is a form of backpedealing. Yes, you use this format to dicuss things with liberal christians, but you don't help out anyone else on the boards with posting such a poll.

I can say I have seen a number of christian men who rule their homes with an iron fist hide on such formats as webboards and chat formants to keep the peace and to not confuse the little ones..and they are the first on their backs in a hotel or begging for you to date them on the side because they are not understood at home. If old Dobson wishes to do a video--he needs to do one on how to call out the hypocrites in churches who go on the DL.

[ezee]

20. Why would I want

to deny who I am. Your sexuality goes to the core of your being. By dening that you deny your true self. Thus you kill your self. NOt a good way to live.
Yes, it would have been eaiser, in some ways, to have been straight in this world, I wouldn't change a thing though. I love myself. Those who can't miss out.
And as far as the church goes, I tell them the same thing I tell my fundiminlist family. GOD DOESN"T MAKE JUNK.
god made us all, just the way we are and we should spend more time celabrating that creation and less time tearing it apart.

[ablbodyed]

23. Rant coming>>>>

but I'll hold it in. As a LIBERAL I have to consider that my post may hurt someone who doesn't deserve to be hurt by my anger.
Not that 90% of whimmies (white-hetero-males) could take one-tenth of the cruelity and crap that a gay person takes EVERY day in this homophobic society. And for the record: I WOULDN'T CHANGE FOR ALL THE CURRY IN INDIA.

[Quetzal]

33. I'm glad we are talking about this

Dobson is blaming it on the Mamas. They coddled their sons too much yadda yadda.

That's a bunch of bull shit. I have gay friends that who grew up in a motherless home and had a loving father.

And the bullshit about how the mother coddles the child too much is dangerous as well. I remember a post on DU awhile ago where a father was being extremely harsh to his child while the mother sat by idly while in public. This DUer asked the mother why the father acted that way and she said that the father didn't want his child ending up gay.

It is stereotypes such as these that can cause more harm than good.

I am glad that this DUer told the mother that she needed to step up and take responsiblity as a parent.

[phylny]

78. Hear hear!

The whole "the mother caused it" garbage reminds me only too well of the theory that autism is caused by a "cold, uncaring mother." That was disproven as well.

For centuries, mothers have been wrongly blamed when biology is clearly the reason for MANY things.

[GreenPartyVoter]

89. Welcome to DU, and you are right. It's frightening that in this day and

age of science, there are people in this culture who still run around with a medieval mindset of that sort.

[phylny]

90. Thanks so much

for the welcome~!

[TahitiNut]

36. Well, I can think of reasons to want to be gay, if I could.

Seat up or down? No problem.
Simultaneous orgasms? No problem.
Faking orgasms? No problem.
Who gets the check in the restaurant? No problem.
Panty hose hanging in the shower? No problem.
Reading and folding a roadmap? No problem.
Bathroom cabinets filled with cosmetics? No problem.
PMS? No problem.
AMS? No problem.
Swapping clothes? No problem.
Draft? No problem.

Sadly, however, I'm hopelessly straight. I didn't have a choice. :shrug:

:silly:

[mitchum]

44. James Dobson is just another grifter

Elmer Gantry without the charm

[vajraroshana]

76. and evil to boot.

Not merely misguided or simply someone with a misinformed opinion but in fact evil. He and his ilk make money creating and perpetuating suffering. They do it willfully knowing this to be the case because they are evil twisted sociopaths.

[zydeco]

62. Ask yourself

Would I become homosexual if I could? We are what we are.

[jonnyblitz]

64. not even. no interest. and I LOVE women, too.

:loveya:

[Johnny_wishbone]

72. hmmm

My mother went from being an atheist to going full on into 7th Day adventism.
Evangel is a cake walk compared to Adventism or the Mormon church.
They ARE listed as cults.
But even with all the insanity, not everyone ties it all together and brands Bush as the next comming.
There was one minister in a local baptist church in Louisville who would preach the tolerance of love and how it made us all better people.
I think his name was Mike Duke.
Evangel is nothing but drama and hollow miracles.
It's Jesus and finger pointing for lazy people.
It is more likely that that kind of mentality would produce MORE people who would be interested in homosexuality.

[sandnsea]

80. "Bringing up Boys"

I read a little on this poor boys are being side-lined by the feminazi agenda a while back. Is this series part of that? Is it really just a backhanded way to return to the days when boys were gods and girls adored them? Just curious.

And again, I don't know how you do it. God has some very special blessings in store for you, I'm sure!