Always believe what the secretary says.

[librechik]

I have this general rule in life--that it's the Administrative Assistants in the world who really run everything. The Boss doesn't know what he's doing in 10 minutes, let alone next week; he has to ask the secretary.

So when Killian's secretary took a look at those documents, and said "yeah, they're forged" my heart sank. But when she subsequently said that the forged documents reflected the substance of Killian's thoughts and actions at the time, a little ray of sunshine opened up my eyes.

Y'see this has been worrying me for a few days. It was obvious to me that the docs were made on a typewriter,not Word, because of the slight variation of individual letters along the base line. But the truth is, unless CBS had access to the original documents, no one would ever be able to prove it. Every word being uttered by experts on the typography aspect is utter bullshit--unless they handled the originals. Every moment we non-experts spend discussing the subject is a moment lost in the battle against Shrub (that's what they want!)

Does CBS have the originals? I'm beginning to seriously doubt it.

So here's the scenario--say there's a disgruntled underling in TANG command office, someone who is party to or at least knows about the "scrubbing project" of Shrub's bad record preparatory to his run for president. What if this person was upset that the Wastrel was getting such preferred treatment, and also felt a little CYA was needed. Let's say this person made copies of the documents just before the originals were destroyed by Dan Bartlett and gang. What if those copies were passed to CBS?

Or here's another scenario. We still have the disgruntled underling in the TANG office. But this time it's ca. 1972. This person also makes CYA copies of the documents, using 1972 technology. (Xerox machines did exist, I believe, but carbon paper was being used too.) This person's identity is a little less clear. It mightbe an officer in the TANG, It might even be the very secretary who typed the originals, though I couldn't say.

I merely think it is intriguing. And I always believe the secretary.

[troublemaker]

1. re: slight variation of individual letters along the base line

It's an artifact of photocopying. I am sick to death of trying to explain this, so feel free to disregard the truth.

Why? Because, if you need to measure type (body size, ledding, letter spacing) and match it exactly, you have to work with original documents. If you are measuring a photocopy of an original document, the measurements can be off by half a point or more. If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy, the distortion grows to more than a point. If you are measuring a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy scanned into a PDF file, e.g. the Killian documents, forget it. The "kerning" and letter spacing you think you see may or may not exist on the original document. Probably not, in fact.

I know this because I learned it from my old film patching days. If all I had to work with was a photocopy, my patch wouldn't match. I had to measure the original printed page.

So, let's dispense with the "proportional type" theory. I've looked at the PDF files, and IMO the quality thereof is too far removed from the original (the wavy baselines are a dead giveaway) to know what the original type proportion was. And any "kerning" one might see is probably the result of distortion that occurs in photocopies that are generations removed from an original.

http://www.mahablog.com/2004.09.05_arch.html#1094852190259

[JimmyJazz]

2. I hear what you are saying, but you just know

Sean Insanity has no scruples whatsoever and he will be all apologetic for having to report this, but, you know - she's old and her memory can't possibly be all that clear and ya da ya da...

After all, this is the same guy who trotted out JOHN ONEILL to discredit the AWOL charges against Bush and to, once again, say that Kerry isn't fit for command.

[wryter2000]

3. Well, I'm a secretary

And I believe her if she says "I didn't type those." Even though it was a long time ago, I think she could remember typing something so damaging to the son of a US Congressman.

However, I don't think she has any more insight into whether or not they're forgeries than I do sitting right here. Someone else could have typed them.

Also, the WH has an uncanny ability to make people take back statements that embarrass WA. Sharon Bush recently tried retracting her statement about cocaine and Camp David, even though she was asked in front of a witness whether or not the story was correct. They may have "gotten to" the secretary, too.

I suspect you're probably right that CBS hasn't seen the originals. The theory that the disgruntled officer made copies before the originals were destroyed wouldn't surprise me one little bit. However, CBS has clearly interviewed more than one source. It sounds to me as if they've done their homework, and not even the WH has contradicted the content of their reports. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned.

[annabanana]

5. sorry . dupe

[annabanana]

6. See new CBS statements

She ALSO said Killian had a locked cabinet where he kept docs she didn't have access to. AND she didn't dispute to content of the documents.

[oneighty]

4. Secretaries

do leave a 'typed by' signature line in my experience.

My boss the MD had a secretary. He also had a typewriter and more often than not did his own typing.

Just a thought.

180

[JimmyJazz]

8. also to add to that point

The existence of those documents makes logical sense. Here is a guy who is career military. Along comes this snot nosed rich kid who is clearly getting special favors. Killian (who I would bet is a by-the-book man), knows he's violating military protocal and seeks to cover his own ass. What other way would one do that in 1972 except to create these kinds of memos and lock them in a cabinet for safe keeping? What Killian's secretary is saying also makes sense: he discussed this with me (what secretary doesn't know his/her bosses secrets), but didn't have me type these documents (why bring her in on it).

[juajen]

12. This makes sense

All of my bosses in past years, with one very small exception, were always in "protect the secretary" mold. I never typed anything that was questionable in the legal sense. It protected me, but, more importantly, it protected my boss. After all, all secretaries are not loyal, hang myself for the boss types. The less she knew, the better. Even at that, it appears she knew a lot. Of course, I was a legal secretary and legal administrator. We were always concerned with the legal aspect of everything.

[WolverineDG]

9. typed by

looks something like this (at least the way my mom the secretary taught me)

DG/mom

where DG is the boss & mom is the secretary who typed whatever it was.

dg

[oneighty]

13. Yes

Thank you. I could not recall how it was done.

180

[wuushew]

17. Then where are other documents that she typed for Killian?

This whole mess can be cleared up quite easily by requesting through the FOIA ALL the documents she may have typed for Killian while Bush was serving with the TANG. My suspicion is not only would you find great variation on documents(typos, spacing, misc errors) but that the signatures would match quite well with those we see on the CBS memos. I don't dispute her as a source I just don't think the right questions are being asked.

[napi21]

7. I think the sec. statement "they reflected Killian's thoughts" is

much more damaging than all the hoopla about originals, copies, fakes, etc. This is first hand testimony to what was going on in that office back in 1972. You are absolutely RIGHT with the "BELIEVE THE SECRETARY! They know more about what's rea;;y going on than anyone else.

[Missy Vixen]

10. I am a former secretary

>I have this general rule in life--that it's the Administrative Assistants in the world who really run everything. The Boss doesn't know what he's doing in 10 minutes, let alone next week; he has to ask the secretary.<

Oh, the stories I could tell. I used to work for an architectural and engineering firm.

Suffice it to say that my former employer thought it was cute to introduce me to clients as "my boss". My boss' job consisted of reading the Wall Street Journal from cover to cover and listening to right-wing-whacko radio. My job consisted of running his schedule, making sure he got to meetings on time, and generally running interference for him, i.e., he didn't return phone calls. From anyone. When the Wall Street Journal became too much for him, I was required to read it daily and give him a verbal summary.

Secretaries know where all the bodies are buried. They know who is screwing off, screwing up, screwing someone else, and they know who's responsible for the latest flameout in your business. Your clients know who's really in control, too.

The documents in question were in the "locked cabinet". We all know that they were most likely typed when that secretary was out of the office or after closing time.

Julie

[librechik]

11. My day job is as an AA

so I know what you're talking about--I work in a news organization. The stories management refuses to cover just break my heart, sometimes. I hang in here though because every once in awhile we do something right, and I like to help make that happen.

I also like the "locked cabinet" news. That is very interesting--but again not very helpful, since there is no physical evidence. But if the secretary says it happend, by god you can count on it!

But oh well--this is so frustrating--why are we obsessed with trivia when Shrub is destroying the Middle East?AAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH!

[Karenina]

14. When Shrub his minions are

DESTRYING THE PLANET!!!!!!!! :argh:

[WolverineDG]

15. dontcha just love it

when someone comes in & snots off on the secretary because they think they're "better" than the secretary???? :grr: :grr: :grr: hey :dunce: who do you think is going to get you in to see the boss, make sure your calls get returned or whatever it is you want the boss to do???? heh heh heh :evilgrin:

i'm not a secretary, but mom taught me well..... ;)

dg

[Missy Vixen]

16. I lived for that S$#()$*

>when someone comes in & snots off on the secretary because they think they're "better" than the secretary????<

It would make my day when someone would do this to me, especially a co-worker.

It's amazing how those who treat the secretary (or AA,) with respect and courtesy got their messages faster, their projects were fast-tracked, and they were the recipients of all special attention. Clients (or co-workers,) who mistreat the worker bees tend to live to regret their behavior. Of course, I didn't do anything illegal, unethical, or underhanded. I simply said nothing and waited for Karma to take care of it.

My husband has an administrative assistant. I make sure she is very, very, VERY happy with how she's treated by DH. When the shit comes down, she's gone out of her way to help him out.

Julie

p.s. Above posters, you're right. This is trivia while * is destroying the world. Let's face it, if the administrative professionals of the world were handling it, we'd be better off...