Usually reliable Democratic voter to cast her vote for Bush *sigh*

[Seeking Serenity]

I had lunch with a girlfriend today who is usually a reliable Democratic voter. She has voted for Democratic candidates for president in every election except one since she's been old enough to vote (at age 18, she cast her ballot for Reagan, bandwagon-style). She votes for Democratic House and Senate candidates. She's not, however, exactly what we'd call an activist or a political junkie.

Today, she dropped this bombshell on me: She's decided to vote for * in November. "Why?" I exclaimed, almost shouting, with utter disbelief.

She said she's begun to feel sorry for Bush because of all the stories coming out about him. She had particular scorn for the Kitty Kelley book, which she said was a bunch of scurrilous and outrageous charges and no one going on the record to assert the claims.

I was stunned. She said that she had the feeling that there was a "piling on" at work, and that she was going to vote for * as a protest against what she sees as "politics of personal destruction."

"What difference does it make what anyone did 35 years ago?" she said.

I said, "What about what they did to John Kerry all through the month of August with the Swift Boat liars and Zig-Zag Zell?" "I didn't like that, either," she said, but this latest round, especially the TANG documents dust-up, pushed her beyond her capacity, she said, She said the CBS story appeared to be like revenge on CBS' part, sort of a make-up for the Swift Boat crap.

I was flummoxed. "You're too smart for this crap," I said (she is smart, she ran her own business before deciding to become a SAHM, but she also has a strong sense of empathy about her, too). She said she was tired of the mud throwing and that the charges against * are going beyond the pale.

"Using forged documents to slam someone? A well-known gossipist (did she coin one there?) taking cheap shots at someone using unnamed sources this close to an election? It has to stop. I want to show them that, at least for me, it's not going to work," she said.

I told her that they're doing it, too, and much more ruthlessly. She said it didn't matter. She said John Kerry wasn't enough of a draw for her to change her mind about her protest vote. She did assure me, however, that she would be voting for Vic Snyder and Blanche Lincoln.

I thought to myself, "Big whoop. There's no way in hell they'll lose. But Arkansas is still in play. Every vote matters."

What do I do with her? How can I convince her to see the errors in her thought? And, is it possible that this latest round of negative Bush stories, one after the other, could have other voters feeling sorry for him, too?

[Prodemsouth]

1. Your friend is very......STUPID.. notice a low posting number so I am

not sure I believe you. Sorry.

[Seeking Serenity]

4. I understand. I've been here since February or so, I just don't post a lot

I do when I have something to say.

I'm cool with the mistrust of the low-number posters.

[Cha]

117. I believe you...to me it isn't the post count..it's

what the poster says. Welcome to du.

I would say to your friend that the important thing is what bush has done to our Country for the last four years..his record speaks for itself ..on the Environment, Education, the misleading us and getting our Soldiers killed for No reason into Iraq, medicare, And they want to cut Social Security!!

Does your friend have a issue that is important to her besides everyone ganging up on poor bushie now?

Please keep us posted..I hope she can see the light!

Did she like Clinton?..because I'm hoping Clinton will have a speedy recovery and come to Arkansas from New York(where I am) and bring in Arkansas for Kerry!

[Deja Q]

34. I have a coworker who feels sorry for *. For very similar reasons.

And it's all the "liberal media"'s fault, too. :eyes:

Care to not believe me?

Sorry, but some people really do feel like that DUer's friend. And I'd pity them if they weren't trying to condemn us all because of a pathetic knee-jerk reaction.

There were people who voted repuke in 2002 because of the Wellstone memorial-turned-political-ad as well. They voted out of spite.

Maybe the DUer was lying, we don't know. But people will be people and will do stupid things.

[jdj]

71. Only an effin stupid sob would feel sorry for Prince Dubya.

Even rt. wing shills only pretend to be stupid.

Now we have encountered the land of the really stupid people.

Tell her to put her sympathies with the families of the soldiers lost in this obscene war, and tell her to cast her voter for whomever will make sure that no more soldiers have to die for a mistake.

[nlik]

35. I am new here also...

Are post counts something like a military rank here? Just curious, I usually don't post on forums (notable exceptions being game forums for EQ and DAOC) but here I notice a lot of fingers get pointed, or derogatory comments aimed at those with low counts here. Do I have to pad a lot of threads before I can have the audacity to post an opinion without suspicion from the higher ranks?

[dennis4868]

36. when someone with a low post number......

submits a negative Kerry post many here question it because there have been freepers who have come here and lurk and then will post a comment trying to fool us into thinking that Kerry is in trouble.

[PassingFair]

49. Especially those whose names contain the word

"muddle"

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. Damn, we think too much alike.

I saw that name and you popped into my head. :pals:

[Prodemsouth]

59. What Dennis4868 said, Not all low post counts means the person is a

freeper, but most low posters who out themselves do turn out to be freepers. Then there are others who will always be depressing defeatist- they are always with any left of center movement or party. It is just a fact esp. in the USA. This is why the left has not been successful in the US. Because it always has elements that always tend to be in a depressing and defeatist.

[leesa]

67. Of course MOST Americans are left of center, but that isn't success.

[Prodemsouth]

72. And your source for that statement is. If that is true than we are sure

are pathetic at mashalling that power. The legislative branch, the Presidency, the Supreme Court- Do I need to go on...?

[MUSTANG_2004]

151. Don't think so

I'd say most Americans have both liberal and conservative views, and vote according to what are the most critical issues in that particular election.

[Djinn]

37. pretty much

there are plenty of people here who will thinly veil their accusations of freeperhood based on a low (or lowish) post count, personally if I disagree with someone I try to counter their arguments rather than blow them off but I guess the idea that people have other things to do than post on DU or maybe just like reading rather than posting just doesn't occur to some of us.

I get really pissed off with the belief that anyone who is "lefter" than you or to the "right" of you or who has a low post count or who isn't a big Kerry fan or feels nervous about the chance of Bush being "re"-elected is instantly a freep or a troll. If there really ARE people hiding out here and "cleverly" posting trollish crap well at least it keeps them off the streets which is a good thing - who knows maybe a few pertinent facts will seep in over time...personally I don't think there's that many but if they're here, who cares? I have less of a problem with them than with posters who insinuate everyone else is suspicious

[Seeking Serenity]

44. Like I said, I know that mistrust exists here.

Borne of experience, I know. Trust has to be earned. Maybe I'll earn that trust one day.

All I can say is that I'm with Kerry all the way and with * all the way . . . OUT!

However, I will say that DUers are entitled to feelings of unease from time to time at a time of such great national crisis. It doesn't make them freepers.

[greekspeak]

52. Some people see low numbers and equate it with untrustworthiness

But people with high numbers get tombstoned too.

[NanBo]

86. Yeah DAoC! eom

[Cheswick2.0]

105. it depends.... are you a freeper or some other form of republican?

if not you have nothing to worry about.

[shanti]

110. they are suspicious

only if you recently signed up...if you signed up say...2 years ago and have a low post count, that's ok, imo.

but if they have no profile (to expose their recent du membership), and post provocatively, i will put them on ignore. when i check my ignore list, most of them have been tombstoned...:shrug: works for me.

[SoCalDem]

145. No "padding" necessary.. Welcome, btw..

:hi:
We welcome newcomers..as almost all here can attest...BUT.. when someone is "new" and posts nothing remotely "liberal", and is always ready to cast doubt on our candidate, or bolster * with rightwing talking points, they will lose that warm welcome fairly quickly..

For a few years now, there has been a well-documented, orchestrated "infestation" of rightwing loonies from other websites.
Apparently their own websites are not sufficiently stimulating, so they come here in droves...just to disrupt..

It's hard for some "longtimers" to ignore the "radar" ..

[Christof]

69. Hey now...

we cannot assume people with low post counts are freepers or disruptors.

That's not very progressive. We all had low post numbers once upon a time, right?

I'll give the poster the benefit of the doubt and welcome him/her to the DU! :hi:

[lefty75]

73. Precisely

I've been banned twice now, mistaken (I think) as a disruptor. I had a low post count and was encouraging a more aggressive stance for Kerry. I think that will help him win, would a freeper want him to win? I don't know why the mods here are so paranoid, geez.
We gotta fight, I mean, you'd think that Bush would be easy to beat, but lets face it, Americans are dumb.

[Cheswick2.0]

106. actually " we" can assume anything we like

we just can't say it until/unless the person exposes him/herself.

[Puglover]

76. And yet another friendly welcome to DU!

I wish this kinda crap would stop. <sigh> To the poster...I'ved experienced the same kind of frustration when I've been talking with someone about Bush/Kerry and they actually get to a point, look at me and say, "I don't CARE what the facts are; I'm voting for Bush." Well, what the hell do you say to that? Also my partner and I were talking about it yesterday...there are people out there who believe that America has the right to do whatever whenever it wants to around the world simply because we are America. These are the types that will be drawn to Bushco. That kind of thinking makes me sick but unfortunately there are alot of folks out there who believe it.

[chelaque liberal]

79. Low posting number

I have observed that there are a lot of posters with high numbers who post "LOL" "ROTFLMAO" "kick" and other well thought out comments. I have read here every day for more than a year and consider myself as liberal as they come, but I don't post often because I don't believe I have anything new to add to the discussion.

If it would make me more relevant, I suppose I could post "I agree" 20 times a day.

[Fla Dem]

115. Low posts don't mean diddley squat.........contribution does.

I enjoy reading other people's opinions, and do not have an overwhelming need to add my comments just to get post counts. If someone else has already posted sentiments similar to mine, what's the point of adding a post that says I agree. When I have a strong opinion I will post. Having said that, if you are going to take advantage of the forum and use it to get your thoughts and opinions across, then you should ante up and help support the forum. That I feel, is a greater indicator of your true leanings.

[lancdem]

2. There could be others

but what gets me is she doesn't care if Bush is a bad president or not. All I can say is, if people vote for Bush because they feel sorry for him, I have no sympathy for them.

[Seeking Serenity]

14. I told he that that was absurd.

What about the deficit? What about those tax breaks for his rich buddies? What about the fiasco in Iraq that is his responsibility alone? Extremist judges? His depleting all of America's moral standing in the world? Rolling back environmental standards? The millions of jobs lost? The list goes on.

None of that got through. "What about our political system descending into the gutter. It has to stop."

I didn't know what else to say.

[LisaL]

19. If she is so soft-hearted

tell her about Gore. Bush had stole the election from Gore, doesn't she want to send a message to Bush that stealing election is not cool?

[Green Lantern]

70. Hi-might I suggest something?

She is talking from a position of emotional conviction. You are speaking from an intellectual, fact based position. You need to marshal arguments that are both sound and appeal to her emotional processes. Leave Kerry out of it, if she doesn't feel strongly for the ticket. Target a softness in her, for example-kids being left behind, or our military families getting food from food banks to make ends meet while their loved ones are under fire, or injured (now about 18,000) troops who are not receiving the care they deserve and have earned laying it down for us. Find a point that hits both her and Bushwa in one stroke.
Appeal to her emotional processes with a greater issue in fair play than Bushwa bashing.
Good luck

[saracat]

3. Don't give them any ideas!

[Lindsey]

7. Let's talk about what happened to the Clinton's-MY GOD...

No one has EVER been treated as badly as they were.

[Ducks In A Row]

5. I guess it is true that breeding cost some their brains

too bad

[dogman]

6. She can't be too bright.

To base a vote on something this stupid when our country is at stake.

[bagnana]

8. this sounds like an urban legend

sorry. If your girlfriend is going to vote based upon who is "nicer" in a campaign, rather than paying any attention to what is being alleged and the actual record of the candidates, she doesn't sound like someone who would have voted the democratic ticket all her life. She sounds like a republican invention.

[progressivebydesign]

11. That was my first thought,... n/t

[Individualist]

20. my opinion as well n/t

[prolesunited]

29. Too many details

Too much time spent constructing it. :thumbsdown:

[Judi Lynn]

140. Exactly! They can never seem to get it right! Needs some fine-tuning

after some severe tuning. A whole LOT of that could be whacked off. It's very unusual for real DU'ers to write pages of material to set up a post.

They should be like their pResident!Get it pared down! Show respect
for DU'ers who don't have all day.

[Cha]

118. Because in actuallity...bush is the nasty one

..tell the bush voter to just listen to one of bush's speeches and hear who is nastier. Tell her to compare the two Conventions!!

Listen to zell from across over there in Georgia! See how nice he is!
GEEZ!

[athena]

9. She's a SAHM?

Ask her if she's not at all worried about global warming -- a problem her child/children will definitely have to deal with. Show her Bush*'s record on the environment.

Ask her if she's not concerned about the availability of guns. Remind her of Columbine.

Is she pro-choice? Does she have a daughter? Ask her if she doesn't mind that four more years of Bush* will mean an abortion ban and thousands of women dying in botched abortions or suicides. Will she not feel sorry for them.

Ask her if feeling sorry for someone is a good reason to make him president. A president should be strong; he shouldn't allow anyone to feel sorry for him.

[progressivebydesign]

10. She's lying.

She's not voting for Bush because she feels sorry for him. No one is that gullible or simple-minded. She is being influenced by someone.. probably a male in her life. I've seen it over and over.

For some reason TOO MANY women are influenced into voting the way their: crush, boyfriend, husband, or father votes. I've seen lifelong democrats turn into Rush Limbaugh fans... and worse..

I don't believe ANYONE would be simple minded enough to vote for the leader of our country because she feels sorry for him. Tell her that type of simplistic sentamentalism is best reserved for American Idol.. this is real world, and people she loves will be drafted in Bush's next term.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

38. Wasn't this the argument against female suffrage?

Then again, I know guys who would switch politics to score... But guys are more sociopathic and might vote differently than they tell their sweeties.

I am voting for the urban legend scenario here, though.

[progressivebydesign]

50. Yeah.. I go for urban legend..

.. as someone noted, too many details. It is infuriating to see how many female friends I've had that switched their allegiances, based on their spouse or boyfriend's preferences... My favorite one (so to speak) was the one that was seeing a married man.. SHE and HE ripped Clinton apart because he "cheated on his wife". I couldn't contain myself, I questioned their hyopcrisy, and they said.. "well, HE "should be held to a higher standard!".

[wildflower]

12. Mention just one or two key issues that will hit home with her.

And back up with citations (lots posted here or do a Google search).

For example:

-How old are her kids? Tell her if Kerry is voted in, no draft. However, there are articles, in fact documents right on the gov. Web site, showing there ARE plans for a draft under *

-Does she want Roe v. Wade overturned? The pill banned? And there are many other threats to women's health and lives, under the very real danger that * will appoint at least one new Supreme Court justice next term. Just one may be all it would take.

And there are so many others...

-wildflower

[xchrom]

13. your friend doesn't sound smart enough to breathe.

what happens to the judiciary, the environment, our troops,guns in society, childrens education, social security, -- those are reasons to go to the polls.

you need a new friend -- this one could have stepping in front of a bus before you know it.

[Mandate My Ass]

15. Muddle of the road

redux

[prolesunited]

30. Sure has the same M.O.

Maybe not the same person, but certainly the same style.

[Djinn]

40. Not the same MO

I thought the same thing when I saw this posters nic for the first time - however as someone who regularly butted heads with muddleoftheroad I'd lay money on this NOT being the same person. MOTR could NOT bring himself to stay out of religious threads and certainly wouldn't be avoiding the I/P forums.

Can people just respond to posts (or ignore them if they feel like it) and not imply people are trolls/freeps/republican stooges or banned posters re-born.

[Mandate My Ass]

47. Welllllllllll....

you could just as easily ignore what you don't like to see...

but that would deny you the pleasure of giving your little disapproving lecture now wouldn't it? :eyes:

[Djinn]

65. whoa

touchy much? I was interested in the original post that is why I read it - you can't decide an individual post is worth ignoring until you've read it unlike topic which usually (but not always) give an idea as to their content.

If you want to instant discount anyone who disagrees with you as being unworthy - go for it. :eyes: right back at'cha

[Cheswick2.0]

107. whoa, touchy much

Monica was simply advising you follow your own advice.

[Djinn]

124. hey cheswick wouldn't be "yapping at my heels" would you

and my only "advice" was that people respond to the POST or ignore and not call people freepers - I don't beleive I did that - but yap away all you like

[Cheswick2.0]

141. no you aren't important enough

I leave that yappy dog thing to others who are obsessed with telling people how to post.

[Cheswick2.0]

108. Djinn is fond of telligng people how they can post

and what they should and shouldn't say.

[Djinn]

125. and Cheswick is obnoxiously

dragging a disagreement from another forum entirely into this onwe - I see you havn't berated all the other people here who don't like the instant resort to "you're a freeper" ... get a life Cheswick

[Cheswick2.0]

136. LOL

No dear DJinn, it is right here on DU on this very thread that you made these comments.
You are the one who takes disagreements to other forums from here.

[Bridget Burke]

32. Definitely a case of deja vu.

For a minute there, I thought I was having a flashback.

[Demonaut]

16. sorry but I have to admit I'm feeling sorry for bush* too

poor guy, Kerry trying to tarnish bush's silver spoon, and anyone who's done cocaine knows it hurts sucking it up your nose and military duty usually requires taking showers with strange men. So give the guy a break, its not easy being a alcoholic, cocaine sniffing,illiterate,lying vietnam dodging coward with absolutely no ethics or sense of responsibilty......the world must seem a scary place

[LisaL]

21. I must admit

some times I feel sorry for Bush too. He is just like fish out of the water, clearly, this job is way toooo big for him. Let's be sorry for him and vote him out-he can't handle this job, let's help him to retire and send him back to Texas!

[democrank]

17. Tell your stupid `usually reliable` voter friend

that it would be more to her credit to start feeling sorry for the thousands of maimed U.S. soldiers, the families of the dead ones, the people in the unemployment lines. George Bush`s policies are responsible for this. If she votes for him, she`s voting for his policies. I feel sorry for her.

[Butterflies]

90. Good point!

If she wants to put her sympathy somewhere, bush shouldn't be first in line to get it.

[Fridays Child]

18. Tell her that she should explain her rationale to the parents...

...and family members of all the soldiers who are coming home in boxes.

[Piperay]

22. Great reason to vote for someone...

cause you feel sorry for them?!?! Well, all the rest of us are going to suffer because your friend and many like her have a kind heart but (hate to say it) no 'smarts'. :mad:

[mazzarro]

23. If she is that simple minded, and stupid, and foolish enough to

think that W* deserve to be pitied while Kerry does not, then "TO HELL" with her!

[Booster]

24. My first question would be has she seen Fahrenheit 9/11

and my second suggestion would be to have her listen to or read what Kristin Brietwieser and the other New Jersey widows have to say. These ladies have signed on the the Kerry campaign and will be seen on TV a lot more in the next couple of weeks. No one can listen to Kristen and vote for Bush. I have a best friend who is a Dem and said off the cuff that she might vote for Bush; I made her go see Moore's film and she snapped out of it. That's unfortunately a female trait; to take up for the little guy being beaten up, but like you say, wasn't she paying attention when they started in of Kerry? And you can bet they will start in on Edwards soon also. Good luck.

[maveric]

26. I've tried to get repugs to see F911 but they refuse saying "All Lies".

Michael Moore is a lying propagandist and its all Lies, Lies, Lies!
If they've drunk the Kool Aid chances are they are under the hypnotic effect, and will never even try to explore the opposing possibilities.
Its so damn sad what has happened to America.

[Seeking Serenity]

25. I really think she'll change her mind.

I think she was just in a fit of pique. She's too smart for that.

But I guess what worries me is that there may be others, those so-called "swing voters," who aren't as smart and could be similarly inclined.

[Booster]

28. I forgot to mention before that I can be a real

obnoxious asshole when it comes to Bush and my friend is just a little tired of some of my rants so she may have just been trying to push my buttons and, believe me, it worked. Nobody who knows me well would ever say they were going to vote for Bush. ha Maybe your friend was doing the same.

[UdoKier]

97. It would be ironic if "swing voters" rejected Kerry for camapaigning dirty

Since Kerry hasn't thrown any mud at all. It's all been from the Bush-backed Swift boat liars for Bush, and Cheney implying that Kerry would get us attacked again...

[Cheswick2.0]

109. I doubt there are more than one or two

I guess they will just have to vote for bush. Oh well.

[Cha]

119. Nah! I think she's one of a simple kind!

There aren't too many that brain dead! Sorry, but I have no sympathy for anyone who feels sorry for that murdering lyin' scumrag!

[cureautismnow]

27. Show Her Pictures of Dead Iraqi Children...

...and ask her if she feels any sympathy toward them. Ask her how in the name of humanity can she feel the slightest bit sorry for a mass murderer and an international terrorist.

A vote for Bush-boy transfers a fraction of the innocent blood from his hands to hers. Ask her how it will feel to be a terrorist enabler. She'll be in good company. Ted Bundy, Timothy McVeigh, and the Bin Laden family were/are good Republicans, too.

[Lefergus70]

82. Hey, that's a pretty good tack!

If you vote for Bush you've got a lot of blood on your hands. Tens of thousands of people dead and wounded in Iraq, and now we know it was all for a sham.

[EndElectoral]

31. Tell her to watch the interview with Secretary on Sixty Mintues

[Bridget Burke]

33. Thanks for your concern.

However, the Kitty Kelley book was planned long before Kerry was nominated; his campaign has nothing to do with it. And, last I checked, Dan Rather was not employed by the Democrats, either. He's just gathering more details to flesh out an old story. That's what journalists do; at least, that's what they used to do.

Somebody who can ignore the welfare of her own country because she "feels sorry" for the worst president we've ever had definitely needs help. If she really exists. Your little cautionary tale is just a bit too pat.

[DodgeDart]

39. I don't think this persons friend exists.

As for Kitty Kelly I am hesitant to jump on that wagon. She is known for gossip and says she just happened to start her book in 2000 and is now releasing it at election time. If she can do it to Bush she can also do it to Kerry when he gets into office.

[LisaL]

42. Well, there are so many stupid people that

vote for all kinds of crazy reason. In 2000, millions of people voted for Bush because they blamed Gore for acts of God, such as the weather either being to dry or too humid, etc. If somebody can vote for Bush because the weather wasn't very good, it's certainly stands to reason that someone could vote for him because they feel sorry for him.

[DodgeDart]

48. The weather?

Jesus I never heard that. Unreal.

[Bridget Burke]

84. But we're not "on" Kitty's wagon.

That's what I said. I remember she announced the Bush family book about the time he took office; the release time was announced as well. She wrote it to make money--that's what she does.

The Kerry campaign has nothing to do with the book. Democrats don't need to read it to find reasons for our vote; we already have enough. I'll probably read it for amusement. I read some fairly serious stuff but not all my intellectual pursuits are lofty.

If the book causes discomfort to the Bushes & disturbs any who are voting for him because he's a "moral" man--that's icing on the cake.

[Deadrabbit]

111. What if

Kerry gets in office and she does the same to him for money?

[Bridget Burke]

113. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

Somehow, I doubt that Kerry has as much baggage as the Bush family.

[Mandate My Ass]

41. "if she really exists..."

"Somehow I doubt it," I almost shouted with incredulous disbelief...:evilgrin:

[Ilsa]

43. Sympathy for a mass murderer?

Where is their outrage? It's not as if * is the defenselss little weakling and everyone else is a bully picking on him.

Geez, I don't understand people.

Read off the 1015 names of dead soldiers for her. Maybe that will have an impact.

[LisaL]

46. Let's face it

there are women like that-they would write serial killers such as Ted Bundy love letters and propose marriage.

[Vickers]

45. Hey, this got me thinking...should I feel sorry for Bush?

Let's see...

- born to rich parents

- lived a life of country club ease

- parents put him through college and grad school

- dad's friends give him money to start businesses and don't care when he runs them in to the ground

- never held accountable for a goddam thing

- sends other folks to die when he wouldn't even show up for freaking guard duty

Yup, I feel pretty sorry for the little shithead.

[MichiganVote]

54. Sure, feel sorry for Bush, after you vote against him, after the election

I feel sorrow for the troops in Iraq. There are more of them than there is of Bush. Frankly, voting for a President on the basis of pity is, well, pitiful.

[stavka]

51. You could just kill her....

I don't advise it, as killing people is wrong - but you would maybe free the gene pool of some load......

It might even be illegal....

[alfredo]

53. Tonight I did precinct walking with two Republicans for Kerry

It works both ways my friend.

[baldguy]

56. What happened 35 years ago doesn't matter.

Kerry went to Vietnam and was wounded - a lot of people did. Bush got special treatment to avoid Vietnam - a lot of people did. What matters today is how they handle questions about it.

An attempt was made to smear Kerry. Kerry defended himself and the record backs his version: the smear was a lie and failed.

An attempt is being made to smear Bush. Bush has made no move to refute the charges, and has refused to answer CBS' questions. We do know that the version of events as Bush has related do NOT match the records.

The way to end the "politics of personal destruction" isn't to reward those who use that tactic by rolling over and giving up - but to demand the truth from politicians and the media and reward those who tell us the truth.

Kerry told the truth. CBS has told the truth.

Bush has NOT told the truth.

[Mandate My Ass]

58. Well put

any truly "reliable" Democratic voter would have figured this out.

This story is smellier than a three-day-old fish in summertime.

[AlCzervik]

57. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but....

your friend is a stupid, selfish and uninformed beyotch. Again, sorry, i know she's your friend but if she were mine i'd say the same thing to her face.

[mitchum]

60. Your friend is a fucking idiot who had ALREADY made up her "mind"...

she was just casting around for a lame excuse to vote for him. A VERY lame excuse.

[hoi polloi]

61. Baby Pigeon out of the nest syndrome

Some people try to save baby pigeons, but trying to rehabilitate them requires specialists and a lot of time and effort. It is an honorable thing to try to save a baby pigeon. You cannot argue that people shouldn't try. even if you know their emotions have overcome them.
You can't change this instinct. Just accept it.
That doesn't mean you cannot find others to vote for Kerry as there are plenty you can influence.

[agincourt]

62. Three words for her,

PNAC, Iran , WAR! Sometimes milktoast is better than cyanide.

[Toucano]

63. Your friend is an idiot.

Since she believes feeling sorry for someone is grounds for making them leader of the free world.

This isn't the Special Olympics.

[mitchum]

64. If she's that stupid, tell her that the election is NEXT year

it'll work :)

[Cha]

120. LOL! Bonzai!

[leesa]

66. Sorry you have such an ignorant friend.

She is a sad speciman. Does she have no critical thinking skills at all?

[cheshire]

68. You are in need of some new friends dear. Is she blond? figuratively.

[liveoaktx]

74. I do not believe this story.. .it isn't that I don't believe that perhaps

someone might decide not to vote for Kerry but for Bush but this rationale doesn't wash as the reason.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tight_rope]

77. Your friend sounds like a "CRACKHEAD"!

How can you possible feel sorry for anyone who could not give a shit about you or humans in general.

[GoldenOldie]

80. What happened 35-years ago does matter

It bothers me that many people blow of George W. Bush's actions in ANG 35-yrs ago as being insignificant today. This same man who chose to ignore his military commitment and even seemed to extol in his ability to thumb his nose at his Commander's and do whatever he damned well pleased. This man is now the same man who is sending Guard Units and Reservists in to battle based on a lie. This very same man sends men and woman into a bloody battle where there were no plans for entering or leaving, no plans for adequately equipping the troops, no plans for adequately supporting the troops with basic necessities, no plans to insure their families basic support, no plans to insure that they would receive any and all medical care they need. This is the same man that has no trouble cutting benefits of the military while at the same time increasing their obligated time on the battlefield. This is the same man who although he did not fulfill his commitment 35-years ago, he would have no problem in throwing the book at any Guardsman/woman or Reservist who failed to report for duty as ordered.

Your damn right it's significant.

[drscm]

78. Dry drunks thrive on the pity of others,

it enables them to blame everyone else except their own behavior for the problems they create for themselves and everyone else.

[blm]

81. So it's OK with her that Bush stonewalled the 9-11 investigation?

It's OK that Bush used forged documents to LIE this country into war?

She has severe perception problems.

[Flammable Materials]

83. Ask her when she stopped caring about ...

... someone's ability to lead the nation, for Christ's sake?

I really don't think that Shrubya is going to send her a "Thank You" card for being so sensitive about his feelings.

Ask her about the feelings of the families of the 1000+ dead soldiers. Ask them whose feelings are more important.

[TryingToWarnYou]

85. Great example of Kelley crap backfiring and hurting us.

Unsupported claims can indeed hurt. One lost voter right here...I wonder how many more are out there.

[Mandate My Ass]

87. KK has been writing tattle tale books like this for decades

No dem put her up to it. How is her doing what she has done for years hurting "us?"

[TryingToWarnYou]

91. Did you read the post I replied to?

The KK trash was basically the last straw for that woman and now she is voting for Bush even though she is a long time Democrat. Every vote we dont get hurts us.

Us as in Democrats.

[Bridget Burke]

92. If the woman can ignore all the damage Bush has done....

And will do if he gets a second term--just because of a book she hasn't read--she is sadly mistaken.

If she exists at all.

[Mandate My Ass]

99. Take it up with KK

I'm sure she'd be more than glad to respond to your accusations that she's causing massive damage to the John Kerry campaign, and by extension, the entire democratic party. :eyes:

Just curious. Bought any bridges lately? Waterfront property in Kansas?

[TryingToWarnYou]

112. Yeah, Ill take it up with KK..she can show me a cocktail napkin

with her "evidence" on it. Please...

I hope that everyone here thats so willing to buy into unsupported allegations will remember their eagerness to believe word of mouth the next time Rove or Bush or the SBVT releases some crap on Kerry. Im sure Ill see your name on here demanding proof of the claims. Somehow I dont think you will be quite as tolerant of unsupported bullshit.

This is just a perfect example of hypocrisy in action. Its actually kind of sad to see so many on DU act like perfect hypocrites when we trashtalk FR for it all the time.

Word of mouth BS about Kerry = demand proof! because its coming from a group critical of Kerry and we love him.

Word of mouth BS about Bush clan = proof? we dont need no stinkin proof because its coming from a source thats critical of Bush and we all hate him.

If you dont think that people getting fed up with the mudslinging arent going to think negatively over this, then I would suggest that it is you who is interested in bridges and the like.

[Mandate My Ass]

114. Do you understand English?

Nobody put KK up to this. This is what she does for a living.

I don't give a shit if she made it up out of wholecloth...if she did she will get burned and will never sell another book.

It is up to the Bushes demand proof of her allegations. They're the supposed aggrieved party.

OK, now here comes the clue bus rolling up to a stop:

The book has nothing to do with Dems.

Hypocrisy my ass. You've got your panties in a bunch over a gossip columnist's book and think it's incumbent upon dems to champion their enemy or else be seen as hypocrites. That is so convoluted it borders on comical.

Get a grip.

[TryingToWarnYou]

129. Sorry, but you are so very wrong.

All the clever quips in the world cannot change the fact that if her book is full of crap, which it seems to be since she has *no* verifiable facts, then it will be blamed on the Dems/The Left because it is a book highly critical of Bush. Do you understand that? Its how things work with politics.

Do you honestly think that Freepers and their ilk will sit back and blame little ol KK when they can paint the entire left with the big broad brush of generalization?

And it is precisely hypocrisy when you do not demand the same level of qualification from someone critical of Bush as you do when they are critical of Kerry. You have missed the point in such a grand fashion that it boggles the mind.

Champion the enemy? No. They simply need to have the same requirements for credibility on "their side" as they do for the "other side". Thats the hypocrisy, genius.

[Mandate My Ass]

130. Who cares what freeps think?

if they even do at all, that is.

Thanks for posting, Karl. It's an honor to have someone so important posting here.

I love how it's the Dems responsbility all of the sudden to make sure every non-political non-office-holding citizen of the US is fair and balanced to the little AWOl chimp.

Peddle it elsewhere.

[TryingToWarnYou]

133. Karl? ROFL...

What a shame that you have to resort to petty namecalling when someone doesnt agree with you.

I never said anything about the Dems being responsible for everyone being fair and balanced.

I simply implied that we are hypocrites if we do not demand the same level of proof from KK as we do from the SBVT and their ilk. Some people are so blinded by their partisan politics that they cannot even acknowldege the fact that they have a double standard when it comes to word of mouth and 2nd hand rumors about a candidate.

Hypocrisy in Action at DU:

BS about Kerry = Demand proof and evidence

BS about Bush = Believed without question

Thats it in a nutshell.

Whether or not you admit it, the KK book does indeed hurt not only the reputation of "The Left" but it also influences some people in their decisions come vote time. Every lost vote is a vote for Bush.

[Cheswick2.0]

139. She proves everything in her book

Do you know that NO ONE has ever sucessfully sued her? It's because she documents everything.

[Bridget Burke]

154. Events recounted in Kitty Kelley's book are more easily proven

Than the existence of the "usually reliable Democratic voter".

[Mandate My Ass]

155. I know just the thing

since English and critical thinking are such a problem for you judging from your responses, let's do a pictorial essay.

Kitty Kelley is not speaking for any :dem: , she is speaking for herself and doing what she has done her entire career. Anybody who does not understand this is :dunce: or :crazy: or :smoke: and therefore not worthy of anyone's attention.

Repeating the same lie over and over again does not make it true, it only demonstrates a level of intellectual :hurts: and emotional :cry:

Bush is busy :nuke:ing the Middle East and :nopity:ing while Iraq burns and our soldiers die. Anybody who'd address :puffpiece: at such a time is a :+

This discussion has gone :thumbsdown: and your responses are such a :boring: that I will now take my leave of you and bid you :hi:

Buh bye.

[Cha]

121. Oh, please!

[Julien Sorel]

88. A simple approach.

What do I do with her? How can I convince her to see the errors in her thought? And, is it possible that this latest round of negative Bush stories, one after the other, could have other voters feeling sorry for him, too?

Educate her on the history of Karl Rove. If she doesn't like dirty politics, then voting for the Bush/Rove team is the wrong way to go.

[depakid]

89. A strong sense of empathy?

Puleez-

NO ONE with a strong sense of empathy WOULD EVEN CONSIDER voting for Bush. Especially if they have even a modicum of inteligence. That's simply not who Bush appeals to.

You've either misjudged this person or you are being disingenuous.

[NYCGirl]

93. If your friend is so damned sorry for that little pissant GWB,

tell her to vote him OUT of the job for which he is so obviously unsuited and ill-prepared, so he can become Commissioner of Baseball, the job GWB once said he really wanted.

[tom_paine]

94. Hey, it's the WizardofMudd!

Mulleofpud?

Puddleofmud?
Pudpullerofspuds?

Either way, I don't buy your mudd and never have.

[Judi Lynn]

146. Back and proud of it, apparently!

I'm sure you're right. Absense doesn't make the heart grow fonder.


Source: Mo Paul

[PROGRESSIVE1]

95. Hopefully your "friend" will be purged from the voters lists come November

:grr:

[UdoKier]

96. How about getting informed and voting on the ISSSUES?

Even if Kerry were responsible for Kelley's (largely true) book and the CBS non-forgeries, Compare that to Bush's MURDER of tens of thousands of people on a whim for fun and profit. Does she condone mass murder?

This man constructed a fake war rationale from whole cloth and she's okay with that?

If I had a friend like that they wouldn't be my friend for long.

[TexasSissy]

142. You got THAT right. Sounds like the friend just said that as payback.

[RobinA]

98. This Attitude

doesn't surprise me at all. I think when it comes to going negative against Bush versus going negative against Kerry, there's a certain danger of invoking sort of unconscious "quit picking on the retard" sentiment that gets aroused in some people.

I mean, it's considered fair to taunt a person for being an egghead, too complex, too rich, having overly nice hair, having an unbelievable number of war medals, being too successful a lawyer, liking rich women, etc., because all those are, in fact, good things. But when you start calling a guy dumb, dissing his bike riding, calling him stupid, deriding his air defense of Texas from the Viet Cong, calling him stupid, and picturing him in every political cartoon as a child, sympathy is going to be raised in some people who are only looking at things on a superficial level.

Bush picking on Kerry is OK because Kerry has had relatively more success in life from an early age. Kerry picking on Bush almost makes Kerry look like a bully who oughtta be told to go pick on someone his own size.

Now I'm not saying that I agree with any of this, but I think the sentiment exists out there.

[Bridget Burke]

100. Kerry is not picking on Bush.

The "friend" referred to objected to the Kitty Kelley book, announced at the beginning of Bush's term, & Dan Rather's reporting.

Let Kerry continue to take the high road; Bush's policies & Kerry's plans will supply material for hours of speeches. If anybody chooses to vote for Bush because others have pointed out he's a pissy, spoiled, addicted (but untreated) chickenhawk, they're beyond help.

[rniel]

143. Hmmm where can we find a retard type candidate

So I guess from now on that will be a trend to run candidates that are so stupid you feel sorry for them. Who cares of the country goes all to hell.

[Cheswick2.0]

101. your friend is an idiot

if she thinks we are going to beleive that crock of you know what. But just in case she is not telling a story, I am convinced that she is a tiny minoity.
Besides this story is not comming from the Kerry campaign. It is comming from the news media.

[w4rma]

102. I'm sorry. I dont believe a word of this story. I've seen similar writing

elsewhere. It's almost like a template.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

103. Who would vote for some one out of pity?

Who would pity George W.Bush?! Feeling sorry for someone has nothing to do with whether that person is an effective leader. This sounds like something a junior high kid would do, if they were allowed to vote. Her protest vote is not going to do anything to change the media in this country. It is only going to get her four more years of the same old shit that has been going on for the last four years.

[noiretextatique]

104. ask her how she feels about (s)election 2000

and why she would "feel sorry" for someone who'd send her ass to iraq...if he could.

[AngryAmish]

116. Your friend is shit

Do whatever you need to do to prevent her from voting, then have nothing to do with her ever again.

[Cha]

122. ON an above thread someone suggested

that she tell her the "election is next year" because with her missing brain cells..she would have no problem with that.

[robbedvoter]

123. Your avatar and your handle don't match. As for the tall story, here's

an answer:
Students who challenged and embarrassed Bush in class would then become the subject of a whispering campaign by him, Tsurumi said. "In class, he couldn't challenge them. But after class, he sometimes came up to me in the hallway and started bad-mouthing those students who had challenged him. He would complain that someone was drinking too much. It was innuendo and lies. So that's how I knew, behind his smile and his smirk, that he was a very insecure, cunning and vengeful guy."
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/16/tsurumi/in...

[Mandate My Ass]

131. handles and avatars

There used to be a guy who also had Muddle in his username. He was an openly racist freep and chose MLK as his avatar.

[Cheswick2.0]

138. yes and he lasted for a LONG time even though he was alerted on

over and over. He would blast whoever the front runner was and never talk about what candidate he did like. That seemed to be fine when the front runner was Dean. I think it was when he started attacking other candidates he finally got canned.

He was a sexist asshole too.

[Justice]

126. Ask her if she cares about her children's future...

Funny how Kitty Kelley's book and Dan Rather's newscast gets blamed on Kerry when he had NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER

[Hippo_Tron]

127. Four words: Woman's right to choose

If your friend has voted democratic in every election since Reagan I would have a feeling that she is pro-choice. Inform her that if Bush is re-elected there will be no such thing as a woman's right to choose.

[RobertDevereaux]

135. Yep, just say "Supreme Court vacancies"...

...and see if that outweights the vacancy in her head!

[devinsgram]

128. I take it then your friend is masochist.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

132. Reads like a poorly written piece of fiction....100% fiction.

[Judi Lynn]

150. Oh, YEAH! Very poorly written. So insipid you want to scream.

You can get screwed when you have developed a high level of expectation having read communications from the other 95% of great DU'er posters!

[hippiegranny]

134. print this out and make her read it

Despite the worst foreign policy blunder in American history, George W. Bush and his millionaire supporters don't know the meaning of the word shame

With Trembling Fingers

"If a spotted hyena stepped out of Air Force One wearing a baby-blue necktie, most Americans would salute and sing 'Hail to the Chief.'"

By Hal Crowther

I used to take a drink on occasion with a network newsman famed for his impenetrable calm -- his apparent pulse rate that of a large mammal in deep hibernation -- and in an avuncular moment he advised me that I'd do all right, in the long run, if I could only avoid the kind of journalism committed to the keyboard "with trembling fingers." I recognized the wisdom of this advice and endeavored over the years to write as little as possible when my blood pressure was soaring and my face was streaked with tears. The lava flows of indignation ebb predictably with age and hardening arteries, and nearing three-score I thought I'd never have to take another tranquilizer -- or a double bourbon -- to keep my fingers steady on the keys.

I never imagined 2004. It would be sophomoric to say that there was never a worse year to be an American. My own memory preserves the dread summer of 1968. My parents suffered the consequences of 1941 and 1929, and my grandfather Jack Allen, who lived through all those dark years, might have added 1918, with the flu epidemic and the Great War in France that each failed, very narrowly, to kill him. Drop back another generation or two and we encounter 1861.

But if this is not the worst year yet to be an American, it's the worst year by far to be one of those hag-ridden wretches who comment on the American scene. The columnist who trades in snide one-liners flounders like a stupid comic with a tired audience; TV comedians and talk-show hosts who try to treat 2004 like any zany election year have become grotesque, almost loathsome. Our most serious, responsible newspaper columnists are so stunned by the disaster in Iraq that they've begun to quote poetry by Rupert Brooke and Wilfred Owen. They lower their voices; they sound like Army chaplains delivering eulogies over ranks of flag-draped coffins, under a hard rain from an iron sky.

Yeats' "blood-dimmed tide is loosed." The war news has already deteriorated from bad to tragic to pre-apocalyptic, which leaves no suitable category for these excruciating reports on the sexual torture of Iraqi prisoners. Fingers, be still. In less than a year, the morale of the occupying forces has sunk so low that murder, suicide, rape and sexual harassment have become alarming statistics, and now the warriors of democracy -- the emissaries of civilization -- stand accused of every crime this side of cannibalism. Osama bin Laden has always anathematized America's culture, as well as its geopolitical influence. To him these atrocities are a sign of Allah's certain favor, a great moral victory, a vindication of his deepest anger and darkest crimes.

http://www.populist.com/04.10.crowther.html

[ProfessorGAC]

137. I Think You Overestimate Your Friend

You say she ran her own business. So did Li'l Georgie. Not exactly an examplar of business acumen and intellectual gravitas, is he?

Your friend is obviously not as smart as you think she is. Anybody whose decision in a national election is rooted in "piling on" is a shallow thinker. This is particularly true in this case, because the substance of the report in question has not been challenged, merely the authenticity of the documentation. So, it's piling on to suggest that a president is a slacker, a deserter, and a failure, while all around him laud his "successes", his "dedication", and his "strength"?

Of course it isn't. You need to rethink the level of respect you give your friend's intellectual weight.
The Professor

[Generic Other]

144. I tell people like this that I take such actions personally so will not be

associating with them any longer.

It's a free country, but voting for Bush carries a price.

[Ms. Clio]

147. Mission Accomplished!

Hasn't anyone else noticed that the OP hasn't responded to any of these posts for a couple of days, and hasn't bothered to debate even a selection of the rest?

[sr_pacifica]

148. She needs to see a therapist

Feeling sorry for Bush?!

[patrice]

149. Since her issue is "piling on", sit down with her and make a list :

Piling on Bush : Piling on Kerry.

Try to include dates. Get her to add entries to both columns.

Count them up.

Never cast aspersions on anyone's intelligence.

[Seeking Serenity]

152. Update

Wow, I never realized that my thread would have grown like it has. Me, a relative newbie. I guess that's a good thing.

Just to update: I have refrained from talking politics with my girlfriend (or even at all) since our last talk. I'm going to wait to see if she cools off and lets her better judgment prevail, and to let all this blather that had gotten her all in a lather subside.

I really do believe that she'll remain in the D column as it gets closer to time.

[Zorra]

153. I find this really hard to believe.

"*sigh*".

Have you noticed how desperate the freepers are getting lately?