WTF...Kerry got FIVE deferments?!

[friesianrider]

At my debate tonight with the College Repukes, one of them brought in a Vietnam Vet who said Kerry got five deferments. (?) I said he must be confusing that with Cheney who for five deferments; Kerry volunteered to serve. THe Vet shouted back that that was AFTER K got 5 deferments. WTF is up with this? Even the Swift Boat Liars never claimed this outrageous lie.

Can someone provide me with an unbiased source that backs me up on this? I'm really upset that students heard this lie and the Vet made me look like I was just some college idiot who had no idea what I was talking about.

[deadparrot]

1. The ball is in his court: you tell HIM to find proof.

[madmax]

2. That's a lie.

Cheney got 5 deferments. Get yourself a copy of 'Tour of Duty - John Kerry and the Vietnam War' by Douglas Brinkley. Or try Kerry's website for his military info.

[Sparkly]

3. That is ridiculous

Sometimes you have to ask them to prove what THEY are saying, because it's virtually impossible to prove a negative.

[friesianrider]

23. I did tell him to prove it...

One professor said they had never heard such a thing, either. He said he would, it was a "fact". I told him to bring evidence in the next debate.

[gratuitous]

33. There's going to be a next debate?

Surprising, considering the usual cowardly tactics of the freeper right. When he can't provide the evidence, be ready to hammer him, and revisit the prevarication often during the remainder of the exchange. Every dubious or wrong-sounding fact cited by this guy should be met with, "Oh really? Is that as solid as your five deferments argument?"

[theboss]

36. It's probably true

A deferment was a common thing for a male college student of draft age, which Kerry was. If he didn't get them, there would be a problem.

People need to get it out of their minds that you had to do something unseemly to get a deferment; you didn't. You just had to go to college, get married, have a baby, etc. It was common.

The important thing is that once he used up his perfectly legal deferments, he volunteered.

[camero]

4. That makes alot of sense

Why would someone volunteer after getting 5 deferments?

[Mr_Spock]

22. Funny sig - hehe

I like that - I had similar thoughts when they had the GAUL to argue an obvious attempt at cheating.

[tibbiit]

40. why? because they ran out

it happened to all guys. they got defferments when in college 4 A. when college was over, or you failed... and you were still the right age, then you went into the service or tried to get even more deferments.

Most people joined up when their deferments were up rather than be drafted. You joined up instead so you had a tiny choice of where you went. If drafted you went to the front:)

tib

[Liberal Veteran]

5. It wouldn't matter if he got 5 million deferments...HE STILL WENT TO WAR!

So are we supposed to believe that because Cheney and Kerry got deferments, that their military service is equal?

That makes absolutely no sense.

[donheld]

25. Right on

What the hell was this debater trying other than to obfuscate the real issues.

[TahitiNut]

39. Kerry was born in December, 1943. He would've graduated ...

... high school in June, 1962, after registering for the draft in December, 1961.

When Kerry graduated from high school in 1962, Vietnam and the draft wasn't on any but the most sensitive of radar screens! It just wasn't an issue that consumed our (draft age males) attention until 1964-65. The "chances" of being drafted in 1961 or 1962 were about 1 in 10, on average, depending on your local draft board. Local draft boards had quotas. In affluent communities where many/most draft-age males were in college, it was the least affluent males that had to worry.

1. Immediately upon registering, Kerry would've gotten a "I-S" classification as a high school student just like any high school student whose 18th birthday occurred before they graduated.
2. Upon graduation from high school and upon acceptance to college (Yale), he would have gotten a "II-S" deferment as a college student. The requirements for a (college) student deferment were:
   • Be enrolled in a course of study leading to a degree or certification,
   • Carry a full-time course load,
   • Maintain a "C" average or better.
   These ("making satisfactory progress") were somewhat mutable guidelines to the local draft board, implemented to varying degrees of rigor. At that time, college graduation didn't automatically reclassify a person as long as they went on to a graduate degree. This was the era of "professional students," students who pursued a series of college degrees. Many of these students would've subsidized their enrollment costs by writing papers and taking quizzes and tests for sub-par 'student's like George W. Bush. It could be lucrative.
3. Upon graduation from Yale in 1966, without enrolling in graduate school or getting an 'occupational deferment' (like teaching), Kerry would've been reclassified "I-A". Instead, he volunteered and obtained a commission (OCS?) which entailed a longer service commitment. A typical Navy enlistee would have incurred a minimum 3-year active duty commitment in those days. An officer would have had a minimum of a 4-year active duty commitment. As an member of the armed forces of the U.S., Kerry's Selective Service classification would've been "I-C".
4. At the time of Kerry's release from active duty in March, 1970, Kerry would've been reclassified "IV-A" (having sufficient active service).

This whole notion of "the number of deferments" is fucking ridiculous (even for Cheney) unless the kind of deferment changed. Technically, every draft-age male was required, by law, to notify their draft board if there was any change in their activity under which they qualified for a deferred classification.

I graduated (and turned 18) in June, 1961. I received a draft classification of "I-C" (member of armed forces) since I'd been accepted to the U.S. Coast Guard Academy. Two years later in 1963, when I left the USCGA and enrolled in college, I received a classification of "II-S." Upon graduation in 1966, I got a job as a high school teacher and received a classification of "II-A," an occupational deferment available to teachers and certain employees in defense-related industries. In 1967, at the age of 24, when I left teaching and went to work for General Motors, I was reclassified as "I-A." I was drafted in March 1968. If I'd kept teaching for another two years, I'd not have been drafted and not gone to Vietnam. Dumb.


Under the "it's a small world" category, I was a cadet at the USCGA in New London at the same time (1962-63) Kerry was a student at Yale in New Haven, only a few miles away. I was a sophomore (third-classman) and he was a freshman. (I might've had to dodge his sports car since both cadets and Yalies visited Conn College to date the women there. We didn't like the Yalies. Purportedly, they didn't like us, either. At least they drove like they didn't.) I was a grunt in Vietnam at Long Binh at the same time Kerry was running swifboats in the Mekong Delta, less than 100 miles away in January-April, 1969. Small world.

[papau]

6. johnkerry.com has all military records

:-)

a rather desparate lie - I wonder why your College Repuke made it up?

[loathesomeshrub]

7. same stupid dumbasses, all the time!

[alittlelark]

8. uh, yeah,

are you saying you COULD NOT refute this?

[LiberalAndProud]

9. They borrowed a page from Rove's book ... if you can't dazzle 'em

with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

[eagler]

10. He may have gotten deferments for the years he was in college but

then later joined up after he graduated.

[kikiek]

11. And being a Vietnam Vet made this more credible how?

This is the same smearing of Kerry they're doing to try and cover the lack of any service on Bush's part. Tell them he is confused. Then get yourself a list of the current administrations service in Vietnam. Or I should say lack of. It isn't pretty for people slandering those who went.

[smiley_glad_hands]

12. If Kerry got a deferment it was for college.

When he finished he volounteered.

This is reasonable, considering that Cheney got deferments and never volounteered, and W--well we all know about W.

This is a non--issue.

[xray s]

13. possibly true, but irrelevant

Kerry went to Vietnam after graduating from college. presumably he got deferments while he was in school, that was a universal program for anyone in college.

The real point is, Kerry volunteered to go into the military after he finished school. Then he asked to go to Vietnam, then he volunteered for one of the most dangerous assignments, Swift Boats, which had a 90% casualty rate.

I'll take that record over the coke snorting shit for brains moran in the WH any day.

[SoCalDem]

18. Yep..as I recall, they had to carry a certain GPA and number of hours

I dated a guy who had changed his major about 4 times, so he could stay in college..he was a 24 yr old senior..( a professional student)..
He started ona basketball scholarship (he was 6'9") played til his eligibility ran out, then switched to cracking the books.. If he ever graduated, he would probably have had several choices of degree..

They had to sbumit paperwork, every semester(?) year(?) ..I forget..but I know if they did not get their paperwork in on time, there was hell to pay..and the possibility of being drafted..

so techically, those were "deferrments"..

[GainesT1958]

14. He's lying through his teeth (all three of them)!

Cheney got FIVE deferments--Kerry ENLISTED in the Navy and REQUESTED duty in Viet Nam, as a Swift Boat crew member. Cheney, meanwhile, stated he had "other priorities" at the time (like avoiding service, for instance :eyes: ).

We--and you--don't have to prove he's lying; HE has to prove YOU are wrong! And he IS wrong!

B-)

[theboss]

37. Once again, it's important to understand what deferments were

You didn't have to do anything unseemly to get them. I always assumed Kerry did get deferments in college; why wouldn't he?

It's what happened after the deferments expired that matters.

[union_maid]

15. John Kerry went to college

He went to Yale before he served, so he must have had deferements for that. I don't know if you had to get a new one for every year, but I'm sure you had to demonstrate that you were still a fulltime student. Not everyone got deferments to avoid service. Some just wanted to finish school. Nothing wrong with that and it was a perfectly normal thing to do unless you needed the GI bill to go to school. There's a very big difference between finishing four years of school, serving and then finishing your education and doing what the chickenhawks in this administration did.

[Kire]

16. googled it

""The National Archives and Records Administration has located Mr. Kerry's official Agency record; it is enclosed. Mr. Kerry registered with Selective Service on December 11, 1961, at Local Board #7 in Concord, New Hampshire. He was given Selective Service Number 19-59-43-209. Mr. Kerry was classified "2-S" (Registrant deferred because of activity in study) on May 26, 1964, and was subsequently awarded this deferment four more times, through April 5, 1966. On April 6, 1966, he was reclassified "1-D" (Member of a Reserve Component). He was separated from active duty on March 1, 1970, and was reclassified "4-A" (Registrant who has completed service) on April 29, 1970. This was the last action taken by Selective Service concerning him."


-==-------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
stuff like this is only found in Freepers' message boards and no legitimate sources

[KC21304]

17. Kerry applied for one deferment for studies in Europe

after he graduated Yale and was turned down. So he joined the Navy. Guess he didn't have the right family or political connections.

[librechik]

20. he had connections, he just didn't take advantage of them

Kerry's a real gentleman with integrity, not a craven boob like the Prince. It was honorable to educate yourself before going to war. They did that that at the Naval Acadmey, too, and guess what, they got to stay out of the frontlines while they were there, too.

[leesa]

19. Yeah. Right.

[cubsfan forever]

21. The Chickenhawk cowards

will say anything, no matter how false. Are you sure the "Vietnam Vet" really was one? Remember the little freeper clown at the DNC who said he did "six tours of duty in Desert Storm?" (You know the one with six weeks of high level bombing and four days of mop-up?) Lots of rednecks and freepers claim this for whatever reason, even if it isn't' the case. Whatever. Point is, John Kerry IS a decorated Vietnam Vet who served TWO tours of duty. Ask your friends where Commander Bunnypants was during 'Nam. Then tell the repuke to go Cheney himself!

Professor 2

[mistertrickster]

24. When debating, there are three ways to refute an opponent's argument--

1. show that it is factually wrong.
2. show that it is logically invalid.
3. show that it is in conflict with a higher value.

You couldn't show #1 because it was probably true due to JK's student deferments while he was in college.

But you could show #2. The number of deferments one gets is wholly irrelevant to the fact that Kerry VOLUNTEERED to serve, unlike everyone in the Bush administration. This is like saying that M. L. King didn't do anything for civil rights for the first twenty years of his life, a total non-sequitur.

The issue is not whether Kerry got deferments--the issue is who used deferments to hypocritically avoid serving in a war that THEY SUPPORTED (as long as other boys fought it). That was Bush and Cheney, not Kerry.

Also, the "burden of proof" is entirely on the person who makes the claim. If he / she can't source it (and in a formal debate, he /she would have to show you the citation), then it carries no evidentiary weight.

[BUSHOUT]

26. Don't be so weak minded. Go on instinct and call them on the lie...

If the vet YELLED you needed to YELL back.

Your instinct was telling you you'd never heard of this before, so you should have run with that. Obviously such a large hammer would have hit Kerry before.

[friesianrider]

44. Why in God's name would you say that?

I'm being "weak minded"? I agreed to a two-on-one debate to argue Kerry's position, and I did my best. I asked for proof and said he must be thinking of Cheney because I had never heard that before. And I'm not going to start yelling at a formal debate. They tried numerous times to get me to lose my cool and I didn't.

Jesus Christ, what IS it with people here attacking other Dems constantly for absolutely NO reason at all?

[ComerPerro]

27. Ask the college repuke why he is sitting there debating you

and not in Iraq right now fighting to protect our most basic of freedoms and our security.

[Virginian]

42. Yes, why isn't he?

All these people who are so pro the Iraq war could be putting their actions where their mouths are.
If they are young and healthy, they could be enlisting to help with the shortage of manpower.
If they are older and still able bodied, they could be sending resumes to Haliburton to make lots of money and help do their part for the war effort.

These hawks need to prove they are not chicken hawks. Call them on it.

[Elwood P Dowd]

28. I also received 5

1965,1966,1967,1968, & 1969. After graduation, I was immediately classified 1-A and drafted in 1970. Thousands of us received 'em and then went off to serve. A few managed to use daddy or influential Friends or money to avoid it. Folks like Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, Savage, Boortz, O'Reilly, Lott, Rove, Wolfowitz, Evans, Delay, Hastert, AssKKKroft, Ailes, Bennett, Bauer, Card, Libby, and the gang.

Limbaugh had a good excuse though. He had a pimple on his asshole that got him several deferments. Too much anal sex in his younger years.

[quaker bill]

29. Kerry went, Bush and Cheney didn't

enough said.

[WoodrowFan]

30. EVERY college student did

EVERY college student did!! DUH! As the others above pointed out, he then volunteered and served.

[shawn703]

31. What was the draft like in 1966?

I thought the lottery didn't start until 1969 anyway?

[Charon]

32. What was the draft like in 1966

Basically, when you deferment for school or what ever expired, you could reasonably expect to receive you draft notice soon there after.
I graduated from college in late May 1969, got my induction notice late in June 1969. Think the lottery system wasn't in place until 1970.

[Virginian]

43. The lottery is something else entirely.

before the lottery was when people got deferrments.

I am pretty sure the first lottery wasn't drawn until 1970 or 1971.
Basically the lottery chose dates out of a hat. The dates were given a number representing the order in which they were drawn.
The number associated with your birthday determined whether you would be drafted. It was supposed to be more fair than the deferrments.

[theboss]

34. It would be shocking if he didn't

He was in college; if you were in college you got deferments. My dad got two deferments, then dropped out, then got drafted. (Then went back to school on the GI Bill later).

My uncle went to college (deferment), dropped out, got married (deferment), and had a daughter (deferment).

You need to be careful when debating this as there was nothing wrong or unseemly about getting deferments. You were stupid if you didn't.

The important part is not that Kerry got his legal deferments. The important part is that he eventually volunteered to serve.

[FlaGranny]

35. I couldn't find much

wrong if he DID take five deferments if afterward he volunteered TWICE. Many, many college students took deferments to finish their educations and never bothered to volunteer for service afterwards. That Kerry may have done so (not that I'm sure he did) just proves he didn't take deferments to avoid service.

[theboss]

38. That's the point

Hundreds of thousands of young men went to college (my dad's best friend) or got married (my uncle) or got their wives' pregnant (my other uncle) specifically to get deferments. Kerry did none of this. It's possible that Cheney did all three.

Once Kerry's deferments expired, he volunteered.

[Vickers]

41. Thank God it kept him out of the Vietnam War!

Wait.....it didn't?

Well huh. How 'bout that.

[sangh0]

45. You don't go to war with a pea shooter

and you don't get into a debate if you don't realize that you don't have to prove anybody wrong - they have to prove they're right

[Liberal_Minded]

46. I agree

I agree