The Religiously Insane Secretary Of State...

[RBHam]

"I think people who believe in a creator can never take themselves too seriously. I feel that faith allows me to have a kind of optimism about the future. You look around you and you see an awful lot of pain and suffering and things that are going wrong. It could be oppressive. But when I look at my own story or many others that I have seen, I think, "How could it possibly be that it has turned out this way?" Then my only answer is it's God's plan. And that makes me very optimistic that this is all working out in a proper way if we all stay close to God and pray and follow in His footsteps.

I really do believe that God will never let you fall too far. There is an old gospel hymn, "He knows how much you can bear." I really do believe that.

I greatly appreciate, and so does the president, the prayers of the American people. You feel them. You know that they are there. If you just keep doing that, it is so important to all of us.

In many ways, it's a wonderful White House to be in because there are a lot of people who are of faith, starting with the president. When you are in a community of faithful, it makes a very big difference not only in how people treat each other but in how they treat the task at hand."

more insanity...

http://chebar0.tripod.com/id117.htm

[Crunchy Frog]

1. Condi pretending to be religious?

That is a new one.:eyes:

[elehhhhna]

25. she needs to pray for braces or a retainer.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. She needs to pray ...

to the God of the Gaps. Hahahahaha!

[LibertyorDeath]

2. "more insanity" Exactly

[LiberteToujours]

3. "He knows how much you can bear"

Unless you're not a member of God's Own Party, that is. Then you can just go fuck yourself.

[Javaman]

40. Or you are a starving child in Iraq or the Sudan..

it seems to me, that the religious types always us that, "he knows how much you can bear" when it's not affecting them. However, when the shit hits the fan, watch and see how many jump off the God wagon and start screaming, "God has abandoned us!"

[kayell]

4. *sigh* We're doomed

[cassiepriam]

5. It's official....

they are all crazy, and very dangerous.

[ladjf]

6. There is a global epidemic of religious insanity.

The main symptom of the disease is that it alters brain chemistry to the point that the inflicted lose touch with reality causing them to manifest behaviors dangerous to their own survival. Unfortunately,
their sickness causes harm to the healthy by way of spreading wars.

[glarius]

7. The 'wonderful' White House has people of faith????

"When you are in a community of faithful, it makes a very big difference not only in how people treat each other but in how they treat the task at hand."......It seems this community of faithful doesn't care about how they treat the Iraqis....Sorry Condi...your little sermon doesn't hold water!

[bryant69]

8. If she weren't the secretary of state and she had said tthis

Would she still be described as insane?

I mean these seem like pretty mainstream religious sentiments. Describing them as insane seems pretty close to describing being religious as insane.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[donhakman]

9. ?

You sound like honestly describing real or pretend religious zealotry as being insane is a bad thing.

[BiggJawn]

10. In a word, yes.

For instance, let us say that it was ME who had said all that. Now let us suppose that instead of "God", I had said "Tinky-Winky" or "Winnie-the-pooh", or any other fictional character.

The popular consensus would be that I was stark raving mad, wouldn't it?

"I mean these seem like pretty mainstream religious sentiments. Describing them as insane seems pretty close to describing being religious as insane."

Now you're getting it. if 6,000,000 people say an insane thing, it's STILL an insane thing.

The idea that Whirled Peas is dependent on whether or not a mythic Sky-Guy LIKES us is at best, absurd, and at worst, criminally insane.

[bryant69]

11. Well I guess you have to describe me as Insane too

Since I also believe in God.

[Lindacooks]

35. BiggJawn wasn't talking about belief in God

He/she was talking about depending on God to get us out of the trouble we cause. THAT is what is insane. These nutso people think that, no matter what they do, God will step in and save the world before we totally destroy it.

THAT is insane.

[UncleSepp]

14. Not really...

if 6,000,000 people say an insane thing, it's STILL an insane thing

No. If six people say something which is unprovable and not supported by observation, it might be delusional. If six million say it, it probably isn't. One of the criteria for a person's beliefs to count as delusional is for those beliefs not to be common for that person's culture.

I am curious about why you seem to want to make your point through mockery of others. Would you mock such people as Tutu and Gandhi for their faith? Would you claim intellectual superiority over them? Why is it that you feel it is your specially given place to lead others to the light of reason as you see it? Do you feel that your opinions are so valuable to the people of this community that you have special license to violate the normal social rules and conventions? Do you feel that such rules as this one:

BIGOTRY

Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry

are made for other people, and not for you?

[BiggJawn]

17. Did you "alert" on me?

If I have "broken the rules", that is the proscribed process.

"No. If six people say something which is unprovable and not supported by observation, it might be delusional. If six million say it, it probably isn't. "

So, if 6,000,000 people say a certain race or ethnic group is inferior, then that's a valid POV, too? I don't think so.

If, 2,000 years from now, 6,000,000 people believe in the divinty of Winnie-the-Pooh, does that make him divine? I don't think so.

"I am curious about why you seem to want to make your point through mockery of others. Would you mock such people as Tutu and Gandhi for their faith? "

I really dislike this "mockery" word. the only context I EVER hear it used in is a religious one, i.e.: "You're MOCKING my beliefs and faith!"

As for Tutu or Ghandi, sure, if they asked, I'd tell them I think they believe in fairy tales.

Like I said, you should have alerted on me.

[gratuitous]

18. I dunno, I've read Tutu and Ghandi

What specifically in their writings do you think are "fairy tales"?

[BiggJawn]

19. Their belief in the "Divine"?

Don't ask me, AuntJen says I'm the one "mocking" Tutu and Ghandi. Ask her.
I think that's what she was referring to. this "divine" thing.

Doesn't have to mean I discount EVERYTHING they've worked for, does it?
Works speak louder than Faith any day, IMO.

BUT....

I also refuse to believe that GOOD works are the EXCLUSIVE realm of people who profess "Faith".

Bush professes "Faith", does he not?

[gratuitous]

21. No, I was asking you, not AuntJen

You were the one who said that Tutu and Ghandi believed in fairy tales. I simply asked what, based on their writings, you thought were fairy tales?

Sheesh. You'd have thought I'd challenged someone's most sacred personal belief or something.

[BiggJawn]

22. No, I thought that was ME....

"Sheesh. You'd have thought I'd challenged someone's most sacred personal belief or something."

That should be MY line.....

Like I said, go ask AuntJen, she's the one who dragged Tutu and Ghandi into this when she asked if I'd "mock" them over their "faith".

[gratuitous]

23. Okay, as long as you don't have a reply

I guess I should have known better than to look for a substantive argument. Sorry to have bothered you.

[bobbyboucher]

39. Here, let me help you,

Tutu and Ghandi did many great things. They worked toward goals that are genuinely good. However, doing these things can still be good and noble regardless of "why" you do them. If for instance, they only did what they did because of their belief in a "god", that still doesn't change what they did from being good to being lunacy, because it was for "god", so to speak. But nor does it mean that their belief in "god" is any more valid.

Doing things that are constructive and "good" for humanity is not the exclusive territory of the religious. So I guess this means that doing good deeds does not in and of itself make you sane.

[UncleSepp]

30. Who said this?

I also refuse to believe that GOOD works are the EXCLUSIVE realm of people who profess "Faith".

Are you responding to some post the rest of us didn't see? No one here has claimed such.

[UncleSepp]

29. No, I didn't "alert" on you.

I don't think that tattling to the admins should be the first resort. The point is, you post as if you are above the rules of discourse here. Are you above normal social rules? Are you above explicitly stated rules? Do you believe that rules are there for other people, but not for you?

As for this line, which you seem to misunderstand:

If six people say something which is unprovable and not supported by observation, it might be delusional. If six million say it, it probably isn't.

That is not to say that any belief held by a large number of people is necessarily correct, only that it is not correctly described as delusional (or, as you would say, "insane"). From the DSM-IV, this is the definition of a delusion:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith).

You dislike the use of "mockery" to describe your own assessment of people who hold religious beliefs as "insane", but it appears that you are using "insane" as a term of belittling rather than as a term meaning "having a mental illness". You are casting scorn and derision upon people who hold religious beliefs. Also, in substituting absurd fictional characters for deities, you are creating a farce of religious belief. Therefore, you mock the belief and the believer. The word stands, and is completely appropriate.

Yes, I have gone to the extreme to name Gandhi and Tutu, but if you are going to label all people with religious beliefs as insane, that includes the good, the bad, the powerful, the weak, the famous, the unknown, everyone. You dodge the charge by saying you'd tell them you think they believe in fairy tales. The charge was that you would label them as insane. Was Gandhi insane? Is Tutu insane?

[BiggJawn]

45. OK, not "insane", just WRONG.

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to deflect criticizm, let me ask you in ALL sincerity...
Why are YOU jumping MY shit so hard when RBHam was the one to ask about our "Religiously insane" Sec. of State?

I was just agreeing with him.

And as for Religion, I stand pat. If 6,000,000 people belieive a fantasy, it's STILL a fantasy. Or Fairy Tale, or Lie, or Delusion...Whatever.

What do you want from me, anyway? An apology? Do you want me to "recant"? Pray the "Sinner's Prayer"? Fuggeddaboutit.

Sorry. Not gonna do any of it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. the proscribed process for reporting religious bigotry

on this site achieves little or nothing in most cases as the rules are losely applied in this arena. So, I doubt 'alerting' on you would do much good.

Mockery is still mockery and the reason you hear it in a religious context so often is that is WHEN it is done most often here. Facts are facts...

theProdigal

[BiggJawn]

46. I've found the same holds for reporting atheist bigotry.

I don't believe in your faith system. you may not believe in my lack of one. You're not going to change my mind, and I don't really care if I change yours. You want to consider me a "bigot", OK. I guess that's fair, since I consider religious people not quite right, either.

If you find that unacceptable, OK. You know where the "ignore" button is.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

47. believe what you want...

i was simply pointing out the facts of how the alerting systems works or doesn't work...but i would love to see some of the anti-atheist bigotry you see here...i don't ever see any...

the key thing is that when you throw terms around like 'sky-guy' it is disrespectful. you want people to respect your decision on what to believe and what not to believe while at the same time belittling their decision on what to believe or not believe. while there may be MANY religious zealots out in the world who would persecute you for your beliefs, i doubt you would find one here. i have never seen any one refer to atheism with the hatred with which christianity is refered to on this site. i am not persecuting you...neither is AuntJen. no one is calling your belief a 'fantasy' or a 'lie' or 'wrong' but you feel free to do just that to my beliefs. what would you say to me if i labeled your faith in atheism as delusional and just wrong?

theProdigal

[Djinn]

48. can you show me some anti-religious bigotry

apart from anti-muslim which pops up now and again mainly though through utter ignorance (ie that the Koran supports FGM) saying

I don't beleive in God anymore than I beleive in the divine winnie the pooh isn't bigotry, any more than the (evangelical)Christian belief that if I'm not saved I will burn in hell - I just think you're wrong - they think I should suffer in torment!

Do you not think it's insane to state that the world's is going to be OK because God knows what we can bear - does God just hate people in Sudan, the Ivory Coast, Iraq, Afhanistan? are they praying to the wrong God (and how come it's not bigoted to think that) or can they tolerate more than us?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. sorry...i was posting to a specific use of language

and i admit that i have hijacked this section of the thread and i am sorry for that. but just above in this very thread there are examples that in most of the world would be anti-religious bigotry. Use of mocking language to belittle one's faith is as much a form of bigotry as calling someone a dago or a nigger or a cracker.

as to believing that it is insane to have faith that your religious figure of preference might decide to have things all work out for the best...no, it's not insane. it is called hope. if you believe that your religious figure of preference is going to do everything by his or her self...well, that might be stretching it a bit.

theProdigal

[Djinn]

51. it's not the same as someone's nationality/race etc

it's calling people on what they believe, just like it's not racist/bigoted to call someone on their belief GWB made us safe from the people that attack the WTC by bombing Iraq.

Personally I tend to be a bit more circumspect at DU, I figure it doesn't hurt to attempt to be polite when you get in flame wars like I tend to do! so I generally wouldn't go with "insane" but if someone beleives that Jesus was the son of God, a virgin birth who "died for our sins" and was resurected and that everything we know is part of God's plan then it's on the same level as someone who tells me they believe there is a Fairy King at the bottom of their garden coming to take all their troubles away - just because lots of folk beleive something doen't make it any less bizarre.

the "big god plan" thing is a cop out in my view - it's not hope it's putting ones head in the sand.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

52. well, i am sorry that you see it that way

but i certainly respect your views and appreciate the polite candor with which you express them. one thing that the non-relgious among us seem to not understand is that some people take thier religion much more seriously than their race...so it IS much the same to belittle race as it is to belittle religion. faith transcends race...and can bind people of many races together in a famliy that CAN stand for and act for good.

i personally find your beliefs staggering...and interesting. if you and i were personal friends i would love to have a beer or twelve with you and talk about how you came to your faith. you could tell me how illogical my faith is and i could tell you how cold and unfeeling your faith must be and we could have a grand time talking it out. and in the end...we would both still believe as we do...and we could split the cab-fare back uptown.

and no, putting one's head in the sand will never solve the problems of the world. my belief is that God left us here as stewards of this world...and what we do with it is partly how we will be judged. but believing that God is watching and willing and ABLE to help...well, that is hope...

thanks for the discourse!
theProdigal

edit for continual use of redunant phrases

[Djinn]

53. ummm

"you could tell me how illogical my faith is and i could tell you how cold and unfeeling your faith must be"

one I do not have any "faith" in terms of any deity or master plan, and why is it "cold and unfeeling" to not beleive? It's BECAUSE I don't believe that I want to fix the problems we have NOW not let them be fixed in the afterlife, I want people responsible for war crimes etc punished NOW not in the afterlife. I do FAR FAR more volunteer work than ANY religious people I know (from several faiths) so I'm really confused as to how you get cold and unfeeling???

how on earth do you get cold and unfeeling - I can explain why I find BIBLICAL belief illogical (believing in God or even Jesus is one thing - it's IS illogical to beleive the Bible as it contradicts itself and much of it has been proven to be false/impossible)

Whether or not one takes one religion seriously is irrelevant - some people SERIOUSLY and deeply beleive that people from non Anglo backgrounds are inferior are their beliefs valid, is it OK to say "that's a load of crap" there are plenty of people who believe strongly in astrology yet the Christian Bible see's fit to call THEIR beliefs crap.

It isn't bigoted to question someone's beliefs or even to find them ridiculous.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

54. you have faith in lack of a deity

that is all i was refering to...and cold and unfeeling in the sense that there is no reason for being...you just are. that's cool...sorry if my terminology offended you. i certainly did not mean to imply that YOU were cold and unfeeling.

and i agree with you that thinking that non-anglos are somehow inferior is WRONG and BIGOTED. their beliefs are not valid...because they see someone as inferior. i do not see you as inferior...you (to my faith and understanding) were created with every bit as much worth as i have. to my belief structure, you are loved as i am. thinking that ANYONE is inferior and expressing it in derogatory is a hideous thing to do. and to say someone's beliefs are crap or to mock them is a part of that hideousness. one thing that i wish more christians really would GET is the whole judgement thing. supposedly, part of being a christian is that you believe God gets to be the judge...

but let me pose one question...is it wrong to think someone's beliefs are ridiculous? i would say so...because none of us has the answer...and won't until we move from here to whatever comes next. it cannot be proven either way...so why are some faiths more ridiculous than others? is it wrong to think that the woman with the image of the virgin mary in her cheese sandwhich is nuts...well, i think it IS wrong...she COULD have made that appearance (belief in miracles required for that one). we don't have to believe it ourselves...but we don't have to tear down. you cannot prove what faith is all about...so why are you the judge of what is right and wrong? questions are good...mocking criticism is bad.

theProdigal

[Djinn]

57. so the bible is ALSO bigoted

given that it demands people do not have other God's except the one(?) depicted in the Bible?

Also it's not cold and unfeeling to think there is no master plan - I think we're are the result of an an amazing collection of planetary/geological/climate etc coincidences and it's pretty cool we're here, I don't need to have a belief that one day some guy in the clouds will tell me why I am, I'm happy enough that I am.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

59. agreed again...the bible is exclusive

as it says there is no other god. but, the thing is, ALL religions believe they are the right one...else there would be only one or none. while i believe my faith is the proper one (and you believe yours is) i have to be willing to accept that i COULD be wrong. and, if you are intellectually honest, so must you. that is why i don't belittle other peoples' faiths...or lack thereof. it is also why i get bent out of shape when someone belittles anyone's faith.

too bad we aren't sharing a beer...i think i will go pilfer one from my wife's stash...she's pregnant and won't be missing it for a while :-)!

thanks again for the conversation! i look forward to more...

theProdigal

[The Magistrate]

62. That Is Part Of the Problem, Sir

All religions do make a claim to absolute truth; there are a variety of religions making such claims, all of which differ signifigantly in their details; therefore the great majority must be wrong. However, no genuine adherent to any religious belief can actually accept the possibility their belief might be wrong, since among the dogmas of the religion they claim adherence is that it is true absolutely. A person may claim to accept that possibilty while adhering to a religion, but in doing so they are necessarily dishonest: either they do not really accept their religion might be wrong, or they do not really adhere to the religion they believe they do. The larger body of the problem is this: religion has come to be viewed as synonymous with good by many people, though there is in fact absolutely no warrant for this quaint identification, and so many feel that to view themselves as good, they must view themselves, and describe themselves, as religious. In many cases they do this despite being perfectly aware that the religion they identify with is a tissue of falsifications and moral impostures that any clear-sighted ten year old can see through if left un-bullied by pious adults, and this has always struck me a form of moral cowardice that ill-befits either the individual or the society that individual is a part of.

"There are thousands of human insects ready at a moment's notice to reveal the will of God on any conceivable matter."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. you are totally wrong :-)

either they do not really accept their religion might be wrong, or they do not really adhere to the religion they believe they do

You can absolutely be an adherent to a faith, truly believe in its precepts and yet be intellectually honest by admitting that it might be wrong...there is nothing wrong with that thinking. I have a deep and abiding faith that I have gained through years of study and interaction...and yet I know that I COULD be wrong...and those two things are not in conflict with one another...it is just logical...but I can see where you would (as would many others) believe that is not something that a religious person could hold to.

I will agree with you about the religious=good thing! You are right in that there is no real correlation between religion and good other than that which is in our minds as a perception of self. Good is such a subjective term...but referring to any religion as a tissue of falsifications? Come now...you have no way of proving that any matter of faith is a falsehood...why would you say such a thing unless you, too, where an adherent of a faith???

theProdigal

[The Magistrate]

64. They Are Incompatible With Honesty, Sir

But the matter is never worth pursuing with those afflicted with the capability of faith. That has been best defined as beliefs that are not and cannot be supported by evidence, and therefore any who profess it will be immune to rational discourse in the matter: one might as well try and argue a man out of love with his wife.

That all religions are a tissue of falsehoods would seem, however, worth repeating here, particularly since you seem to imagine matters of faith could be proved, or at least not disproved. All religions make statements of historical fact, and of divine activity, that can be proven false, or shown to be unnecessary to explaining events. These statements are, in fact, fabrications, and can generally be traced to the self-interest of some priestly caste or social element of the society the creed supports.

Much of your effort here boils down to the school-yard taunt "I know what I am, but what are you?" A conclusion from evidence is a very different thing from a faith, though nowadays it pleases some adherents of faiths to pretend otherwise. That is a mere sophistry, akin to a rightist's attempts to demonstrate the victimization of white males in our society by reference to things like affirmative action programs as discriminations against them.

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

[RBHam]

65. I may not agree with you on everything, sir...

But I wish I could put into words the distaste I feel for the "Religiously Insane" as well as you do...

p.s.
this is one of the reasons I feel so certain that these people, put into places of authority and power, can commit the most evil of deeds while rationalizing it so completely. The end justifies the means, as it were.

i heard pat robertson counselling young christians that it was there duty to "facillitate the coming of the Lord" and that good christians are but "tools of the lord"...

all over the a/m radio band are fundamentalist firebrands predicting the Rapture is imminent. i was astounde one day to tune into one of these shows and hear the radio preacher prolaiming that the "Lord's Day Of Terror" was soon at hand...

imagine a few thousand of these brainwashed, moonie-style, true believers handpicked ahead of time, ready to do whatever duty it is that the Lord has decided for them...

and then used efficiently and cynically by a right wing, nationalist, militarist elite intent on global domination...
www.newamericancentury.org

i tells ya, magistrate, it makes one really nervous that a "religiously insane" President has his finger on the button...

[The Magistrate]

67. It Is A Frightening Prospect, Sir

It is pleasure to be in agreement with you on this matter generally, of course, but the particular item you reference is indeed a distressing one. Matters of state, and particularly matters of violence, ought to be the objects of the coldest and widest calculation conceivable, and persons who do not accept the discipline of reality ought, in my view, to be barred absolutely from meddling in them, let alone control over them. Falsities believed by rulers have done more harm to humankind, and brought low more nations throughout history, than any other idenitifiable factor.

"I will own as good no conduct in a diety I would not own as good conduct by a man."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

68. no...not incompatible with honesty...

just your view of it, apparently. You cannot prove for or against a deity nor can you prove against said deity's actions...i have never claimed more. if you are of the mindset that the poetry and allegory in the judeo/christian bible are meant to be taken as fact...well, i suppose you could prove some of it wrong. but if you look at it as an inspired work to explain the presence and activity of the divine in the creation of this world and its inhabitants then proving wrong does not become a possibility.

and sir, i am taunting no one nor any beliefs. i have been nothing more than curious and in good-faith have been exchanging ideas and beliefs but you, of course, will call it what you will...right or wrong.

thank you for at least giving a veiled attempt at politeness even though it is frought with disdain.

theProdigal

[The Magistrate]

69. You Will Cling, Sir

But the thing remains. Honesty is what it is; it is nothing peculiar to me. Faith in a thing is a belief that a thing is true, hewn to without evidence to support the proposition. This is absolutely incompatible with any doubt about the truth of the proposition, and so it is not possible to state honestly that one has any doubt about what one believes as a matter of faith; either the person does not actually believe the thing, or does not actually doubt it. There is a strain of liberal theology that holds the doubter expresses more faith than the firm believer: it is amusing, but no more than a sophistry aimed at getting round the plain meaning of the words employed, as so much of theologic thought is.

Those who postulate a diety must prove its existence, and this they have singularly failed to do. It is quite possible to prove that particular claims of action by a diety are false. You admit as much concerning the Bible, and it is just as possible with the scriptures of eastern religions and various other beliefs throughout the world. Your statement that the texts of the Bible are poetry and allegory not meant to be taken as fact is a bare-faced confession they are not fact, as well as an imposition of your own modern mind on the people of the past, who certainly did take them as fact, and on the compilers of the tome, who certainly presented them as, and meant them to be taken as, fact, often to the pain of death for those who expressed disagreement. You postulate that they were inspired in their actions by a diety, but you cannot prove that, and the far simpler explaination that they were inspired by self-interest and will to power, both solid human motivations that can be observed as principal inspirations for human action throughout the existence of our species, can be amply demonstrated by the plain statements of the texts in question. Again, the real root of the problem is the persistence of people in attempting to wrap this shabby exercise in exploitation by fraud of fellow humans in the mantle of moral good. It will not wash, Sir, and is no honest exercise of an intellect.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

[ProdigalJunkMail]

70. well, once again...you will not be swayed and are calling me a liar

by your insistence that i cannot hold to this course...to understand that someone can believe something to be true but be willing to accept the fact that they could be wrong. that's fine...believe as you will...sounds almost like a religion to me. this comes down to pride and ego...am i the sole repository of truth? no...and while i can believe my faith is correct and true, it is imperative that i not place myself in a position that i cannot be wrong...as it appears you have.

good luck with your stance...as long as you believe that you cannot question your faith and still have it you will never understand...

good day...sir
theProdigal

[The Magistrate]

71. This Is Too Rich, Sir

Unfortunately, circumstances will deprive me of adequate access to a machine to engage it properly till tomorrow evening. For now it can only be noted that your attempts to portrray yourself as both persecuted and misunderstood are most amusing. Till then, Sir....

"The bleating o' the kid excites the tiger."

[FizzFuzz]

60. my impression about Tutu and Gandhi is that they had strong faith

as an undergirding of a powerful vow to TAKE RIGHT ACTION. Faith alone is meaningless and even harmful, as we are all seeing demonstrated before us every day.

Faith without works is dead as the saying goes, and participating and even conceiving callous destructive acts without self reflection, while proclaiming loudly about your "heartfelt" faith is blasphemy. Not to mention unproductive, jejune and insane.

IMHO

[The Magistrate]

61. Well Said, My Friend

All societies and cultures exist by instilling delusions among the people born into them, but that these are widespread does not make them any less delusory.

One element of the "God's plan" drivel that is so commonly mouthed that annoys me particularly is the individual's blithe assumption of favoritism directed towards him or herself personally by an omnipotent being. There is in this an element of spiritual pride that dwarfs the psychological concept of megalomania, and makes the sin of Lucifer seem akin to a parking ticket by compare. To state that the success or survival of one was "God's plan," or "a miracle," contains the neccessary corallary that the failures and deaths of others were similarly willed by this diety, or willfully not prevented by this diety.

"You won't regret this...for quite some time...."

[JanMichael]

12. "Insane"? Perhaps not. Self important & delusional?

Sure. It's a great way to justify one's success with the pain and suffereing of others due to "God's Plan".

Wait, I take that back, it's Insane and Selfish.

[donhakman]

13. More accurrate than insane and selfish

it is comforting and blissful to defer to gods in the midst of confusion and complexity.

Immediate gratification of having an automatic answer is not so much selfish - but easy.

[donsu]

20. well, religions are a construct - and

the bloody hands bushgang is the wolf in christian clothing. just like Robertson, etc. are con men working the the religion trade.

[lgardengate]

32. I agree. Most people with faith in God would agree w/her on this..

So do i. I am also offended at the trashing of anyone who has faith in God and draws strength and comfort from there faith. I know many mainstreem religious people who would be shocked to be called "insane" for there faith. IMO this shows alot of hostility to people with faith BECAUSE of there faith. Not Cool!

[Lindacooks]

34. It's spelled 'their', not 'there'

and if you read the New Testament, the crooks currently occupying the White House are NOT Christian. They do not believe in any of the teachings or words of Jesus Christ.

And the problem is when, instead of working to address and solve problems, people say 'it's in God's hands'. That's a total cop out and is the lazy person's solution to poverty, disease, war, and environmental destruction. God gave you a brain and a body to be able to solve problems and help others, not to just blindly accept whatever is happening as 'God's will'.

[bobbyboucher]

41. I think you misunderstand,

people here do not want to tell the religious among us what to believe and how to live their lives. On the contrary, they want merely for you to do the same.

[Djinn]

49. so you think

God is just seeing how much the BILLIONS on earth who are starving/oppressed and brutalised can take? if that's the case God is an arsehole.

[sandnsea]

66. I think it's blasphemy

And the whole idea that "I'm doing well because God loves me" is sick and the root of everything wrong in this country. Blasphemy. Insane. Take your pick.

[gratuitous]

15. Curious that Condi knows how much we can each bear

But she seems ignorant of the hard words that Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jesus had for leaders (both political and religious) who heaped burdens on their citizens and followers and yet did nothing to assist them.

I wonder why such selective reading of the Bible counts as fundamentalism when it plays to one set of scriptures but ignores a great bulk of others?

[Kinkistyle]

16. Oh, so God actually sets limits on how much we can kill!

Well well well, God gives us safety nets I see! (Unlike our government which is preparing to take away ALL safety nets that have been set up to help the meek, for they ARE blessed.) I wonder how far God will let us fall hmmm? Thousands more dead? MILLIONS?

God certainly is a funny fella!

[Q]

24. The 'religiously insane' don't have to take responsibility...

...for their actions. It was 'God's Plan' all along...so you can't blame Bush* or his crew of cronies.

[qs04]

26. Popular sentiment

"I really do believe that God will never let you fall too far. There is an old gospel hymn, "He knows how much you can bear." I really do believe that."

Guess that means nervous breakdowns and Post-Tramautic Stress Disorder are fictitious. I'd better get ahold of some acquaintances of mine and inform them so they can stop suffering.

[AngryOldDem]

27. SAY WHAT????

>>>You look around you and you see an awful lot of pain and suffering and things that are going wrong. It could be oppressive. But when I look at my own story or many others that I have seen, I think, "How could it possibly be that it has turned out this way?" Then my only answer is it's God's plan. And that makes me very optimistic that this is all working out in a proper way if we all stay close to God and pray and follow in His footsteps.>>>>


"It COULD be oppressive"?????

This is enough to make me go atheist.

[bvar22]

31. Ahhh, Condi????

"when I look at my own story or many others that I have seen, I think, "How could it possibly be that it has turned out this way?"


You might want to thank the Democratic Party and liberal Americans. or maybe Condi is saying that the Democratic Party is the Party of God's works?

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. May I just say

UGH! *slap to the forehead*

------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[demigoddess]

33. she is confusing prayer with self conceit.

enough said

[KlatooBNikto]

36. Patriotism,Samuel Johnson once said, is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

The famous doctor neglected piety as an even more potent and intoxicating tool in the hands of scoundrels from George Bush to Condoleezza Rice to Jerry Falwell to .... you name it.The doubly potent mix of patriotism and fake piety is the staple of this administration.

[RBHam]

38. Rapture or Rupture?

World thinks America has gone mad, and they are correct
by Bryan Zepp Jamieson
04/26/04
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/Religious/rapture.htm

Excerpt:
What we have now is something worse. Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney believe in the Rapture – they even had some crackpot come in and lecture astounded Pentagon chiefs on Bible codes – the notion that the placement of words in the Bible signified strategy for the military to follow in the 21st century. Condi Rice believes in the Rapture, and, along with Karl Rove, has worked strenuously to convince Putsch that only an Israel that controlled all of its supposed ancestral lands – much of the middle east, including Baghdad – was what would be needed to take Condi up to heaven.

And Putsch himself?

Yes, he believes in the Rapture nonsense. The rest of the crackpots in the administration couldn’t be doing what they’re doing if he didn’t.

American foreign policy is in the hands of people who are seeking the end of the world in order to hurry their personal salvation.

Which leaves the question: in a potential second term, would Putsch encourage a nuclear war in order to kind of hurry his ascension along?

[CoffeeAnnan]

43. Condi's fake piety can be highly correlated with her scarcity of sex.

May be she should pray that GW gets to see her outside the oval office (wink, wink) in more compromising settings.They can have their discussions about Total Information Dominance,Plausible Deniability and other weighty matters during pillow talk.

This reminds me of another such fake piety outburst from the Bush Family Consigliere, James Baker, which received very lengthy coverage on the front page of the NYT.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carl Brennan]

55. All the while she's getting boned by her ...."husb......the president".

:eyes:

[burrowowl]

56. Well, Billy Graham finally

came out a bit too late as a lifelong Democrate.

[renaissanceguy]

58. The religious right

seems to have this notion that being "godly" means playing god, i.e., destroying creation (or what they believe god created)

[superconnected]

72. Looking at this administration all I can say is

"God help us!"

[RBHam]

73. kick

nt