Why are many American Jews

[Must_B_Free]

willing to accept that their US Government is involved in corruption, but unwilling to touch the idea that the same may be true of Israel's far right Likud government.

For example, I heard Randi Rhodes say that the torture was probably imported or learned from Syria or Saudi Arabia, however we have a Janes news article that explicity mentions Shin Bet resources being hired for torture. Also we can google "Warrior Ethos" and find that there was a giant initiative to mold our forces to be more like those of Israel.

Another example, this one an example of progressive insensitivity, is Al Franken mocking the struggling screams of Arafat being smothered by a pillow. Laughing at the idea of murder? How fucking sick a way is that to represent the progressive cause?

Hey lets just be real - most if not all groups have some dangerous fringe element that is driven to seek control. Even PETA goes way overboard. Christian terrorists, Hindu terrorists, EVERYONE has em!

Why is it that many if not most American Jews are incapable of taking an honest look at the problems of some of Israel's policies? (on edit, perhaps I have overreached here - perhaps its only %30 or less?)

To be fair, I know many many Jews who are critical of the injustices committed by Sharon, but some seem in complete denial, in the same way right wingers are in denial of the true character of Bush.

My question is: How can we tell others what not to do if on some levels, we're not much better? How can we bring right wingers to reality if we are unwilling to face it ourselves?

Now bring on the calls of "Anti Semite"!

[Swede]

1. I bet some of your best friends are Jews.

You probably even work with one.

[Djinn]

23. don't know about Must B Free's

friends but speaking for this (Australian) Jew, I have ZERO problem with what he said - I wouldn't want to take a guess at the exact figures (I actually don't think they're as high as AIPAC would like to pretend) but most Jews tend not to be critical of Israel at all - there is more Jewish criticism of the Israeli govt INSIDE Israel than outside it. Things that are printed in mainstream Israeli papers are unsayable in the US, certainly they would not be printed in US papers.

Likud are not alone here though - succesive Israeli govt regardless of their political stripe have the same guilt.

It isn't really surprising though, people stick up for who/what they feel a connection with.

[Zhade]

39. See post #20.

Nice try, though.

[WestHoustonDem]

2. This American Jew

is unafraid to criticize the Israeli government, and neither are most of the other Jews I know. I don't begin to speak for all Jews, but if the media does as good a job analyzing our attitude towards the Israeli government as it does reporting the rest of the news, then your premise could be wrong.

That said, from the cradle we are taught about the Holocaust and the persecution of Jews throughout the ages. Many Jews identify the survival of Israel with the survival of the religion and that trumps everything.

[knowbody0]

4. do you have hope for peace between israel and palestine?

[WestHoustonDem]

12. actually I do have hope

because of the similarities between us. But not under the current government of Israel and most definitely not while the influence of the "religious" right in the US is so pervasive.

[Must_B_Free]

There are extreme similarities - customs older than the religions

kosher / halal for example.

[knowbody0]

16. we need dialog from all the peoples of the world

affected by the insanity of the fundamentalists...it is after all our planet, we share the same air,

[Is It Fascism Yet]

37. okay, my daughter the psychologist says

okay, my daughter the psychologist, whose professional specialty is behavior modification, and who trains autistic children, (with skittles for rewards), told me her solution for the palestinian/isreali conflict. Now, I know this sounds too simple, but I have to tell you, she is usually uncannily correct in her grasp of human dynamics. She says, "Somebody has to go down there and tell those people to all grow the hell up! No more backassward behavoirs to be tolerated! Somebody has to appeal to their common interests, at what-the-hell-ever most basic level those common interests might lie, and get them all to agree to just accept the status quo with regard to borders, call a moritorium on destruction, and establish cordial relations, for all their own sakes!" Well, yeah, I know, that sounds like a terrible oversimplification, but, ("keep it simple, stupid") sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one (Hackoms Razor?) Anyways, my daughter voluteers to go there on demand, bring her skittles, and modify some behavior big time. Maybe we should just send psychologists instead of diplomats.

[charlyvi]

46. Ockam's Razor.

Not Hackom's Razor. One of my pet gripes.

[Must_B_Free]

5. Yeah I think that's it

there are some circimstances surrounding the whole thing that shape perceptions and peoples ability to take an objective look at things.

Its almost the same thing as the "red-staters" unwillingness to see the war as a violation of the 10 commands, in particular, thou shall not kill. It's the same centrisst attitude that "we can do no wrong".

[Sara Beverley]

7. "...survival of the religion and that trumps everything."

No doubt, many Muslims feel the same way about their religion. When religion "trumps everything"---something so subjective trumping everything---therein lies the problem with the entire world.

[WestHoustonDem]

14. Which could explain why I wouldn't be considered to be a practicing

or observant Jew. Some of the very teachings of Judaism drove me away from the organized practice of Judaism.

[Must_B_Free]

20. Me too

although from an orthodoxed perspective I am not entitled to any jewish identity, I can't help feeling that I was instilled with some cultural aspects.

Really it's just that my father grew up in Shaker Heights and calls himself a Jew, even though, by the standards of most, he is not; (although his Jewish friends frm Shaker Heights do consider him "one of them").

[Djinn]

24. technically me too

Jewish side is on my Dad's side not my mum's we've also been godless heathens for a few generations now!

[jdonaldball]

36. Cool! Being godless heathens is an ancient Jewish tradition! :-)

I mean, the Old Testament is full of stories about relapses into various kinds of paganism and syncreticism etc. All of which makes Judaism more interesting, I think.

[Must_B_Free]

38. When I got into reading a little of the Lilith era stuff,

I was struck at how the form of the stories from that era is similar to the style of Hindu stories, in terms of the whole fantastical element of the human-animal hybrid characters... Same for the mesopotamian stuff. What a colorful time. Interesting that it is just universally common to that era of history.

[Pig_Latin_Lover]

3. I'm not Jewish, but...

...I think it comes down to the same things we have do deal with here, where criticism of the country and criticism of the government's policies are really two different things.

I know a lot of Jews who rrrrreally dislike Sharon, and pretty much the only Israeli leader they liked was Rabin who actually gave peace a shot. Now Israel has done some crappy things over the years and they certainly have a right to defend itself, but overall the end goal (or hope) has been to establish peace on both sides.

Of course, for a lot of Jews, the Palestinians make it hard sometimes, but so do the Likudists and other facets of the Israeli government.

[Must_B_Free]

6. It's really a tiny fringe of highly motivated people

who ruin it for everyone.

I think %90 of the people on earth are %90 similar. it's that tiny group of insane motivated people who foment the hatred and unwillingness to empathize.

[212demop]

8. I'm a Jew who's not reluctant to criticize Sharon- I loathe him

And I can speak for my parents as well. But what are you trying to say about Arafat? Are you absolving him of his crimes? Lest you forget- Munich 1972. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Sharon and Arafat deserve each other.

On the subject of American Jews-- here's a recent stat I heard on Randi Rhode's show:

The most US race based crimes last year were targeted at African Amercians

The most US religious hate crimes last year were targeted at Jews

Remember THAT.

[Must_B_Free]

10. True, Arafat is the father of modern terrorism

and that is somewhat unforgivable, yet there has to be some respect given for other peoples perspectives. He was a leader to these Palestinian people and to make a joke simulating somes screams as they are being murdered is just over the top and anthetical to what Al is trying to do.

I'm not one who goes for hating anyone. I dislike the Bushies and what they are doing, but as Mike Malloy said last night - hate will do more damage to the bearer of it than the object of it.

[blokenblue]

9. its not anti-semitic

I know a several Jews who are against the government of Israel they don't agree with the current politics in Israel it doesn't make them any more antisemitic then me anti-American for not supporting our current government.

[whalerider55]

11. as a member of the tribe

i know many, including myself, who consider sharon to be a butcher of bushian, nay rumsfieldian proportions.

my old rabbi, who once published a letter in the NY Times urging jews of conscience to vote for ramsay clark over jacob javits, always held to the fear that in the end, if they came for us again- nazi's, fascists, fundies, we were f*cked without a homeland.

still, i can't abide by the policies of sharon, and any of the likudists of his generation.

arafat is gone. when sharon goes, if we can avoid netanyahu, maybe the centrist secular party can have a go of it. labor has had no leadership of vision since rabin...

sigh.

whalerider55

[Hippo_Tron]

13. It's the same concept as evangelical christians hating gay people

I was raised Jewish and ever since age 6 I had the pro Zionist crap drilled into my head till the day my parents let me quit religious school. It's all about biblical right to the "promise land". Frankly I think the concept that god wants thousands of his people to die over some buildings in Jerusalem is absurd. Frankly I think that we should evacuate the place and drop a nuke on it so that neither side can have it; well not really, but I've pondered it...

[Must_B_Free]

17. oh my

"no mans promised land".

Either that or let all the people who are willing to fight for their religion get together in a cage and let em' have at it...

I had a crazy idea that if you really made jerusalem into an even bigger tourist area, in the vein of Colonial Williamsburg, you'd have to eventually find a way to pay tribute to the hate to keep the knowledge alive for historical purposes.

Will people on day reenact these attrocities like our civil war battles?

[bullimiami]

15. i think the majority, a significant majority

of american jews are liberal. they dont like bush and dont particularly like sharon or the likud party.

[Must_B_Free]

18. That's what I's like to think

From my personal experience, I associate Judaism with individual thinking, liberalism, tolerance and behavioural humanism, (and even health food.)

Is is just that the small fringe has everyone conned into believeing that more people agree with them than actually do?

[212demop]

19. Well, 75% voted Kerry.

[Must_B_Free]

22. Well that's reassuring

but that %25 could think "It's OK if he's like Hitler as long as he's on my side" is a little frightening.

What is disheartening is the level of deceit and deception that some of these people participate in. "Rachel Corrie jumped under the bulldozer and she was trying to protect a weapons smuggling tunnel inside that house", some was trying to tell me this recently. :puke:

[212demop]

27. Well, who's to say some of that 25% didn't go Green?

We do have a long history in progressive parties.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. I think you'll find most reform and conservative jews being liberal...

Orthodox jews are what I would imagine as being the more conservative wing, since their practice of the religion is more fundamental. Lieberman is an Orthodox jew and is definately no liberal. He does have the right stance on abortion, though.

[KnowerOfLogic]

25. Zionists and Arabs are two peas in a pod; I have been speaking

with Arabs on various Arabic websites for a few years, and i tell you that *not a single one* will condemn suicide bombings directly targeting Israeli civilians. NOT A SINGLE ONE. It is all about Israel did this, Israel did that.... I think that the Israelis started out in the present Intefada by showing a little restraint, but it appears that they have abandoned that completely now; both sides have given themselves over to the madness of war, and until they are both willing to look in the mirror and take responsibility for their own actions, and to renounce violence, there is going to be nothing but more dying and conflict. If the last few thousand years of history in that region is any guide, the future does not look bright.

[Djinn]

42. I don't think you speak to too many Arabs in that case

yes there are stubborn idiots on both sides who only see the "other" sides mistakes & crimes, however inside and outside the area there are many jews and many arabs who do not wear these blinders.

[starroute]

26. Something happened after the 1967 war

All the time I was a kid, American Jews did not identify with Israel.

You could hear very negative opinions of Israel from people like my grandmother, who I think must have been a strong Darwinian. In her mind, the European Jews who came to America were like the fish leaving the sea to become amphibians, or the apes coming down out of the trees to become humans. They were the fittest, the ones who deserved to survive. Those who stayed behind to be slaughtered by Hitler were the evolutionary losers, and the Israelis were a mere remnant of those who had already proved themselves unfit.

The most positive opinions of Israel came from people on the left -- both Jewish and non-Jewish -- who saw them as pioneering socialists and liked to mutter about kibbutzim and the virtue of politicians who never wore ties.

But all that changed when Israel started to win wars. I think there's a secret feeling among American Jews, "If we'd only known how to kick ass, Hitler wouldn't have dared do anything to us. If we can just be the meanest muthafuggers on the block, we'll be able to relax and feel secure." The result is that any kind of kick-assery, even if it's Mossad going out and assassinating the wrong people, is likely to be seen as a good thing.

In short, you've got a whole lot of people who really want Israel to play Clint Eastwood on their behalf, and relish it all the more the nastier it gets. It's not a happy situation, and it's made worse by the fact that nobody ever admits it. But I can see it even in my father, who these days seems to forget everything he ever taught me as a kid the moment the subject of Israel comes up. That just rips me apart.

What I did learn as a kid was that being a Jew means standing on the side of the oppressed and against the tyrants no matter who they are -- that if Jews do not stand with the most despised and excluded, there will be nobody to stand with the Jews when their need arises. That was the real reason American Jews were so active in the civil rights movement. It was the absolute bedrock principle of the thoroughly secular Judaism I received as my heritage, and the degree to which it has been trashed probably freaks me out even worse than the collapse of American democracy.

[vixannewigg]

29. Completely Agree

"What I did learn as a kid was that being a Jew means standing on the side of the oppressed and against the tyrants no matter who they are -- that if Jews do not stand with the most despised and excluded, there will be nobody to stand with the Jews when their need arises. That was the real reason American Jews were so active in the civil rights movement. It was the absolute bedrock principle of the thoroughly secular Judaism I received as my heritage, and the degree to which it has been trashed probably freaks me out even worse than the collapse of American democracy."

I don't know that this has been trashed. I feel this very strongly. I think most of the Jews I know feel this way, which is why they are generally so liberal.

[erniesam]

33. who stood with the Jews during the holocaust?

"if Jews do not stand with the most despised and excluded, there will be nobody to stand with the Jews when their need arises."

[Djinn]

43. perhaps you need to read some history

Giving ANY kind of support to Jews under the Nazi's would bring a death sentance not only to oneself but often to ones family as well, DESPITE this there were groups and individuals who risked this (see 'Righteous Gentiles')

The penalty for supporting jews in Poland 1941

"Concerning the Death Penalty for Illegally Leaving Jewish Residental Districts...Any Jew who illegally leaves the designated residential district will be punished by death. Anyone who deliberately offers refuge to such Jews or who aids them in any other manner (i.e., offering a night's lodging, food, or by taking them into vehicles of any kind, etc.) will be subject to the same punishment."

February 1941 the Dutch population mounted a general strike in protest against the treatment of Jews.

7,220 of Denmark's 8,000 Jews were saved by people who hid them, then ferried them to neutral Sweden.

Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat who led the effort that saved 100,000 Hungarian Jews in 1944.

Pastor André Trocme led an effort in France, which hid and protected 5,000 Jews

Every European nation had resisters. Poland's Underground - made up of children, teenagers, and regular men and women - defended the lives of thousand of Jewish and non-Jewish citizens.

Yad Vashem had 20,205 listed righteous gentiles as of Jan this year - that ONLY includes those they've been made aware of, many more we'll never know.

Do you honestly think YOU would have been this brave? Easy to say from the comfort of 2004 but when thwe stormtroopers are marching up your street and you have your own children to look after it's not so easy.

[Must_B_Free]

40. Thanks for an excellent analysis

"But I can see it even in my father, who these days seems to forget everything he ever taught me as a kid the moment the subject of Israel comes up. That just rips me apart."

Do keep in mind though, that peoples attitudes change as they get elderly and are faced with less optimism. My mother recently said "You know, when you get older, you don't care as much about other people and their problems."

[vixannewigg]

28. Difference Between What Jews Will Reveal to Each Other....

I am a Reform Jew (grew up Conservative but identify as Reform). I do not think that Israel is perfect, however I am also not quick to judge Israel because I have never even visited, let alone lived there. I lived very close to the WTC on 9/11 and I know that after the attack I was extremely angry at the terrorists to the point that I felt very prejudiced toward most Arabs. I'm not proud of that, but my point is that I'm not sure I feel comfortable judging Israel when I have not experienced what the Israeli people have experienced.

When I see what's happening in our own country, as fundamentalist Christianity seems to take over, I am more and more glad that Israel exists. I am hesitant to "air dirty laundry in public" because enough people already seem to be so critical of Israel around the world.

I think you might find a difference between what Jews would say to one another regarding Israel and what they would say to non-Jews. I think many Jews would be very uncomfortable criticizing Israel to non-Jews. I also think that the older generation is much less critical than the younger generation. When you grow up Jewish, you are taught that Israel kind of is perfect and that Jews never did any wrong in the creation of the country. My grandmother gets very angry at me when I criticize Israel. I remember watching a show on the history channel about Jewish terrorists and I was completely shocked. I'd never, never heard of that.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. You make a very good point!

I was raised as a conservative/reform Jew. Your comment about airing dirty laundry to non-Jews is a very good one. I look at it this way...I can say my mom is acting like a bitch to my brothers or family members, but if someone else EVEN suggested it, there would be a rumble! We keep our dislike of the "family" in the 'family!' All Jews do not think Israel or her politicians are without flaw, any more than all Americans believe the Shrub is the best president! There is so much hate directed at Jews, we do not want to add to it or have our comments misunderstood, so we stay quiet or "blindly" support Israel.

At DU, I have seen some people who are very articulate at criticizing Israel, but others are nothing more than anti-Semitics! Sometimes it can be a fine line, but often it is not. Just because you do not support the policies of Israel, does not make you an anti-Semite!

[starroute]

41. It's weird, because "Exodus" was a huge best-seller in the 1950's

That's the Leon Uris novel about the founding of the state of Israel -- the one that got made into a movie in 1960 implausibly starring people like Paul Newman and Sal Mineo as would-be Israelis.

And one of the main themes of "Exodus" was the internal argument between the non-extremists and the terrorists. As I recall, a central episode of the book was a lightly fictionalized account of the bombing of the King David Hotel.

So it's not like this stuff wasn't known at the time and even for twenty years after. It's just been conveniently stuffed down the memory hole since then.

Of course, it's not only the Israelis this affects. "Exodus" also gave ample coverage to the British beating members of the Jewish underground with rubber hoses -- and you don't hear much about that these days either.

[Djinn]

44. absolutely

the difference between the English and Hebrew versions of various Israeli papers will show this, and it's a normal human reaction - most people have the view that THEY can criticise their family but "outsiders" can't, it's pretty natural really, even if I don't agree with it.

On the Jewish terrorism issue, I'd always known about Irgun, Stern Gang, Palmach etc I only recently found out that my grandfathers cousin (a jew) was killed in the King David Hotel bombing.

[genieroze]

30. I don't know if that's true for most Jews especially the ones living

in Israel. The ones here don't necessarily know what's going on there any more than you or I do. You can dislike Israel or Sharon's policies and it doesn't mean you are antisemitic. I don't hate Americans, just it's policies and many of it's leaders. I feel very sorry for all parties over there. They both live in constant fear of each other and that's not right. I'm sure there are Jews here that agree with Israel's policies and many who disagree with them. I don't like Sharon but I like him more than Bush.

[BrklynLiberal]

32. The people who know the least about what is going on in the world

are the people who are kept informed by the mainstream media in the US.
Israelis know a lot more about what is going on in Israel than Americans do.

[BrklynLiberal]

31. I agree with most of what you said, and I am Jewish.

I think that both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people have suffered under the leadership of men who have had a vested interest in maintaining conflict rather than finding peace.
I blame most of this "blindness" by American Jews on the mainstream press in the US. They never present the struggle between the Israeli government and the Palestinians even-handedly. I was shocked the first time I saw some of the things that the Israeli army is doing to the Palestinians. But I had to see it via the BBC, FSTV or some other alternative news source. You will NEVER see it on any mainstream TV news show or in a mainstream newspaper.
Even when I send article to people I know, they deny the validity of it and say it is Palestinian propaganda.
Now, with the support of the Christian-Zionists fomenting the Israeli violence against the Palestinians, you will see even less of the truth in the American Press.
There is, in fact, a huge peace movement in Israel. The Likkud government does not represent most of the Israeli people any more than the Bush government's policies truly represents most of the American people.

[imenja]

34. there used to be a strong American Jewish Peace Movement

but they became very disillusioned after Taba. Let's hope that Bush decides to move now that they no longer have Arafat to blame everything on.

[BonjourUSA]

45. What ?

In France, for example, a very little part of the Frenchs with Jewish religious practice are Zionists or support Sharon.