Message: "The Republicans want to destroy Social Security."

[scottxyz]

"The Republicans want to destroy Social Security."

Short and sweet. Simple and true. Repeat it until it sinks in.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2004_12_12_digbysblog_archive.html#110316296280193366

[JHB]

1. "And it's not a lie"

They've accused Dems of "scaring seniors" for decades by claiming that they're out to destroy SS. Well, now they're in control, and that's exactly what they're trying to do!

[ThomasJackson]

4. Not a Lie?!?!?!

Social Security is going to implode eventually ( 13 years or so ) because there will be too many retirees supported by too few workers. Back in the day there were 32, 33 workers paying into the system per retiree receiving SS benefits. It is less than half that today. In the future could be as low as 4 or 5. Folks live longer. Baby boob followed by baby bust. The demographics are what they are. Stuffing your head in the sand won't fix things.

[Warpy]

6. Bullcrap

Using the most conservative figures, the GAO has determined that it's solvent until 2050 at present levels; it's solvent until 2100 if it pays 80% of present benefits.

That collective shriek you hear from Repuglicans is because it will start needing to use some of the 40% of overpayment of FICA that they're now robbing for pork projects.

Don't fix it if it aint broke, son, and don't believe GOP propaganda.

[ThomasJackson]

8. read on "son"

GAO assumes solvency based on "redemption" of what are, in effect, IOU's from the US Treasury. These begin in 13 years. WHERE, PRAY TELL, IS THE TREASURY GOING TO GET THE MONEY FROM?!?!?!?!?!

Does the phrase "robbing Peter to pay Paul" sound familiar?

[JHB]

16. From those who are robbing Peter AND Paul

The deficits for Social Security and Medicare combined over the next 75 years are projected amount to 2.2 percent of GDP. At the same time, the Bush tax cuts will cause a revenue loss also equal to 2.2 percent of GDP over that period.

You remember, those tax cuts that were SOOOOOOO necessary because the budget was in surplus (heaven forfend we pay down the debt some).

And speaking of robbing Peter Middleclass to pay Paul Moneybags, How about those monster Bush budget deficits? Paul's in a much better position to buy Treasuries than Peter is, not to mention his reduced taxes on dividend income (from those companies cutting payrolls through outsourcing, or by getting fat no-bid contracts for "work" in Iraq...).

[tx_dem41]

22. I hope you get as upset by the $400-500 billion deficits...that

are funded with "IOUs out of Treasury". Oh, and that deficit would be $850 billion if not for the $350 billion SURPLUS SS is bringing in right now. In other words, I am (and have been for 20 years) overspending into SS to help finance a deficit, and now as I get closer to retirement age, you want to flush my money down a toilet.
Thanks, buddy.

[Royal Observer]

13. OK, OK

but if I were you and I were going to collect SS after 2010; I'd be worried.
Is it OK to believe Dems like D P Moinyhan and Bob Keary or do you consider that to be Dem propaganda.

[JHB]

20. They're not the whole story.

If the political landscape were very different, then there might be some honest debate over the merits and demerits of Moynihan & Kerrey's proposals.

We don't have that kind of landscape. Now, the people who have ALWAYS opposed SS have the reigns of power, aided by a more-than-a-decade-long propaganda campaign to scare everyone about it's "bankruptcy".
The long-established MO of these people has been to use a reasonable-sounding pretense to push through a radical agenda.

Under these circumstances, M&K merely provide figleaves for getting under the hood of SS and dismantling it.

[Royal Observer]

26. Landscapes and fig leafs notwithstanding

M&K knew how the SS program works. Many of the people who reject their proposals, don't.

[Andromeda]

50. Well, Patrick Moynihan is dead now but I never heard ...

of Bob Keary -- I think you mean Bob Kerrey.

There are some Democrats who think there might be some merit in setting aside a small amount of money into private accounts while still paying into Social Security, not doing away with S.S., in addition to Social Security.

It's experimental and there's been no extensive studies done on what effect it would have on S.S. over the long term.

Social Security is the most successful federal program ever created.

Believe this: If the Republicans are pushing for Social Security "reform" it can't be good. They want to do away with S.S. altogether.

Zip, finite, nada, that's it. No more Social Security, period.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. 13 Years????

That's preposterous! Where did you get those projections? Even the most dire projections from the rabid right place it at 2031, and these are the same geniuses who claimed that gov't revenues would go up if they lowered marginal tax rates.

Admit it, you just made up that 13 year number, didn't you? There were NEVER 33 workers per recipient. You made that up too.

The demographics, the real ones, not the ones you made up, do not reflect that the problem is created by that as much as by declining real wages. Do a multivariate model of the financing cycle of SS. You'll see. Of course, that would require real data and real analysis and not just some made up canards.
The Professor

[tsuki]

23. Check the figures. Good until 2042, at a less than modest economic growth

rate. Longer if the economy picks up.

[Cocoa]

29. you've got all the talking points down cold

very efficient summation of the republicans' completely bogus argument.

Except that not even the most ridiculous republican liar would claim SS is going to implode in 13 years or so. You've bested Gingrich, George Will, David Brooks, all of them, with that one. :toast:

[wicket]

Your "facts" are off by a mile

Try again. :eyes:

[Andromeda]

49. So you're a doubting Thomas, eh?

I don't know where you got your figures from but you're waaaaay off. Sounds like Repug talking points to me.

Social Security will be solvent until the year 2050.

[Glenda]

2. I think a lot of programs will be destroyed by repugs

before people smarten up and realize it is too late for everyone.

Thanks for posting the link.

[sandnsea]

3. SSI is communist

We could add that in, the Republicans have always thought FDR New Deal programs were communist and never supported them. After SSI, it'll be Medicare and every other social system in the country, including public education. We ought to haul up that law in Alabama to help the cause.

[henslee]

5. From the folks that brought you the S&L debacle and the Enron scandal!!!!

The third in a trilogy that has made billions more than Star Wars Trilogy!!!

[billbuckhead]

7. We also have to give motive---destroy SS & give the money to crooks

They want to Enronize Social Security

[Just Me]

35. New policy: American lives are worthless; give your money to corporate

arms dealers, oil diggers and financial wizards.

Yeah, those corporate profiteers HATE giving anything to the whole of American society and want to pocket every penny of our country's wealth as quickly as possible.

Disgusting bunch of evil "Greckos"!!!

[tsuki]

28. If we give the money to those financial wizard, it will be like my dad's

Dryfus Fund. In 1960, he started putting $50 a month with the promise in 10 years it would at least double, more if he let it stay.
He invested in 10 years, $6000.

In 1975, it was worth $5000. He'd of been better off banking the money.

And look at the big savings of the 80', 401K. I have friends crying about how their 401Ks are worth less than half what they once were.

Seems about the time to retire, the money evaporates.

[sweetheart]

9. How to fund SS obligations AND end regressive payroll tax

Strangely, SS ties its sources to its outpayments, unlike any other
tax program. I do support severing this link, and making the support
of SS a general taxation obligation, not specific to payroll tax.

That said, payroll tax is a regressive tax, and i am for abolishing
it, in favour of income tax, one that is progressive. One would
think that DU progressives would as well consider de-coupling the
obligation and the elimination of a regressive tax, for progressive
taxation.

[ThomasJackson]

11. it figures

Why is it that the usual solution to any economic problem around here is "Pay me with someone else's money."
It is like GroundHog Day. Or like owing money to a book.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

12. Are you aware of where you are posting?

You posts don't seem to take into account the fact (especially this one here) that middle class America has always foot the bill so it's as much our money as anyones.....

[tx_dem41]

24. Well....you want to take my money away from me too.

I don't see how you are any better...in your own eyes. I have paid over 100,000 into SS over a long period, and now you want to take MY money away from me. Thanks.

[tsuki]

30. Does that include the money your employer paid in for you. That is also

your money. Your employer always considers it before boosting wages and benefits.

[tx_dem41]

34. You're right of course. Thanks for pointing that out...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

36. EVERYBODY is suppose to sacrifice in a "civilized" society.

If you don't want to contribute your fair share for living in this great country or you advocate against expectating those who have the capacity to contribute to sacrifice,...maybe you seek something other than a democracy where liberty and justice (economic and social) are applied to everyone.

[Royal Observer]

15. I have found that

many of the most ardent supporters of SS don't know how the system works.

[Cha]

47. I do know this...I've put money in over

a lifetime and I expect to get Social Security checks when I retire at 62. I'm counting on it. I have no pension fund or 401k.

And fuckhead bush better not screw with it.

[JohnnyRingo]

10. The great republican mantra:

"if you don't work...You don't eat".

I guess I should have started saving for retirement when I was 7 yrs old....Like Dick Cheney.

[Andromeda]

48. Oh, but didn't you know -- Social Security

is welfare? Old people have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and go to work!

Those lazy senior citizens.

You're never too young to start saving for your retirement even if you're only 7. Let's do away with all those pesky child labor laws and make kids go to work to earn their keep.

<sarcasm off>

[RobertSeattle]

14. Heard a great analogy for this

There's an old ant killing trick where you mix sugar and borax together and then place the mixture where the ants are. The ant's like the sugar but they can't really tell the difference so they end up taking the sugar and borax back to the nest and this eventually kills the colony.

Republican domestic legislation is like this - they really want to kill the program, but they'll add some "sugar" to trick middle class people into supporting it.

[Royal Observer]

18. Great analogy

If the ant doesn't die from the poison; he dies in 20 years (the life expectancy of ants).

[MISSDem]

17. They do want to destroy SS and all of the other

entitlement programs. I think that is the plan with the financial situation they're getting us into. The government will be so broke that they can just say "sorry, we just don't have the money to fund these programs. So we are just shutting them down". You know less government, personal responsibility and all of that.

[Wiley50]

38. SS is NOT an ENTITLEMENT!

It is a disability and retirement program that I, for one, have paid my PREMIUMS into for 30 years!
It is not welfare.

Wiley

[MISSDem]

43. Sorry, I misspoke. Should have said SS and

the entitlements.

[Wiley50]

21. My Four Year Wait

Many of the people who want to privatize,bankrupt and ultimately kill Social Security have incomes over $80,000 a year and, therefore, are not required to pay into it. They see it as socialism, as welfare.
Social Security is not welfare. It is a disability insurance and retirment program for those who don't earn enough to have any other way to provide one.
I paid into Social Security for over 30 years while working a low-paying, physically debilitating profession, Floor covering (carpet laying). What I have to show for it is 10 ruptured discs, a flattened cervical spine, a displaced S1 (lumbar) nerve and two severely arthritic knees. I had back surgery in 2000 which only made it worse. I am able to be mobile and pain managed by wearing a Fenanyl patch which makes me groggy and very nauseous.
I filed for SS disability in 3/01. I am scheduled for a hearing before an administrative law judge in 3/05. This will be the first time that I have been allowed to see anyone face to face or even contact by phone. In the meantime I have survived on $149 a month in food stamps and by living with my 81 yr old mother. SS has ignored my medical records and 6 Doctor's letters. I have an attorney but that hasn't sped anything up.
The Director of Tennessee Disability Determination Services ( who have caused this log jam ) stated publicly last year that the wait was actually good because many applicants would either give up and find employment or die.
My situation is normal for those who apply in my state.

Wiley

[tsuki]

33. And every state now. In Florida, people applying for SSI are told it is a

welfare program and they have to sell everything they have before they can apply.

[Zinfandel]

27. WHAT IN THE FUCK NEEDS TO BE "FIXED"

about Social Security?

Because it's a liberal program that has worked extremely well for decades and ALL the greedy, lying, selfish, republicans have vowed to destroy it as well as every aspect of the "New Deal"?

So if the party in power has publicly vowed to destroy a program they despise, isn't it likely we are going to hear lies, distortions and smears about SS from the very same wealthy, greedy piece's of dog shit?

They've raided and stole our SS surplus intentionally for greed and to ruin it, and now have the fucking gall to say it's failing and that it doesn't work?

This is more incredible fascist bullshit and once the corporations get their foot in the door, forget get it, it's over. The greed of the corporate structure will destroy SS and the people who will absolute need to depend on it in the future...but that's the way these devil destroyers, conquers work...take, take and take, now, all they possibly can and fuck everyone else and others future!

A once strong economy like Argentina went complete bankrupt when they privatized their Social Security and the corporate republican fascist here, want nothing less but to destroy Social Security forever. Give the money via "investments" to the ravenously greedy corporations.

Bit by bit these republican corporate monsters are tearing down and reversing generations of hard work, sacrifice, determination, at the cost of peoples lives in many cases, by liberals, the unions and progressive democrats, to help the poor and create some fairness for the workers and the future of their families. They hate us and see us ONLY as workers to be exploited, then tossed aside to die when used up, for their own sick disgusting greed.

[Strelnikov_]

40. And Even Here (DU) There Are Calls To . .

- Have the revenue come from general income taxes. Once SSI is in reality a 'tax', it will go the way of welfare, because that is how it will be viewed.

- Raise the retirement age. Great if everyone were office workers, and no one had health problems.

- Eliminate it all together. "I don't know why I, as a younger worker, should have to pay for someone else's retirement".


If there needs to be modest reduction in obligations, I would support means testing. Once an individual's total of monthly benefits paid exceeds what they paid in, with interest, they would be means tested for any future benefits. The only people in 'deficit' to the system would be those in need, therefore making it somewhat fairer for younger workers. Everyone would get out everything they paid in, with interest, if they live long enough.

[Cocoa]

31. absolutely right

and their claims that they are trying to save it are pure Orwell.

[idiosyncratic]

32. What will happen to those people presently on SS and SS disability?

Especially the ones on Disability. Some of them are in their 20s and 30s and will live many more years . . . if they don't die of starvation, or hypothermia after being kicked out of the housing they can no longer afford.

[LaPera]

37. Repeat the lies, while the republican owned corporate media pounds it in

night & day, 24/7 as truth.

[Strelnikov_]

39. Add " . . and Medicare"

[JohnOneillsMemory]

41. Republican policies are EUGENICS. Put that in the public's vocabulary.

I hope this makes sense to the many new DU-ers who are only just starting to try and understand why so many good people embrace terrible things and call it 'morality' and what to do about it.

Psychology is the most important tool for understanding how we got into this mess and why.

Left, Right, Center comprise a FALSE VOCABULARY TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE
OF KILLING PEOPLE FOR MONEY.

Some people get the scam and some don't and enable it creating a very confused American public
1) Those who kill people for money and hide the evidence
2) Those who don't and fight to expose the evidence

This polarity of awareness within the two main political parties alienates some who choose to sit between murder and justice and call this 'Centrism.' But denying justice is not moderation, it is STILL INJUSTICE.

"Because I don't trust the 'radical fringe' who want to either
1) throw all the Jews in the oven (right wing)
OR
2) throw none of the Jews in the oven." (left wing)

"Yes, all things in moderation. So the right answer is in the middle.See? Politics is all about...compromise.
-Compromising your values." (DLC/DNC)

The Tactic We Must Deal With Or Die:
Psy-ops culture war tactics of Orwellification-
'Weaponize the good, demonize the outraged liberals who protest this.'

This is the way the domestic culture war (psy-ops propaganda to intentionally stir people up and chill dissent) works:

Take something, like the US government, do terrible things with it.

Then, when liberals criticize the terrible things, claim they are criticizing the good part and so 'liberals must be bad.'

"They hate us for our freedom."
"They are jealous of our virtue because they are sooooo bad."
Amazingly, this really resonates in A MASTER RACE MENTALITY!

OR:

Neo-cons put a baby in hot water.
Liberals accuse them of abuse.
Neo-cons claim that 'liberals hate babies.'

Christmas has been weaponized the exact same way.

Neo-cons use religion to kill people with the New Crusades.
Liberals cite First Amendment separation of church and state.
Neo-cons claim that 'liberals hate God, Jesus, Santa, etc.'

Neo-cons use our children as troops to kill for oil.
Liberals scream bloody murder.
Neo-cons claim 'liberals hate our troops.'

That last one is the most dangerous because it will lead to a Tienanmin Square situation where our own troops will be called in to stomp on 'enemies of the state' or PROTESTERS.
http://museums.cnd.org/June4th/massacre.html
(Photos of Tienanmin Square Massacre of Protesters)

The Inaugaral parade will see Bush* literally hiding behind our troops so that the hostility of the protesters will be used to claim that liberals are against the troops 'just like the Fallujan insurgents.'

Unh-oh. Orwellification of 'save our troops from war' into 'kill our troops by not supporting the war.'

January 20, 2005 is the next big psy-op event to create a Brown Shirt movement in this heavily armed and polarized country.

SO...

Re-Orwellification OR Flipping the Polarity on Evil Back to Good:

The Master Race mentality of American Exceptionalism Saving the World and the Christian-Inanity of being the wrathful smiting 'Chosen Few' are the binary agents of American Fascism.

There's no time to back up 358 degrees to explain to the public how the democratic humanity of 'We the People'+'All God's Children' has been perverted into American fascist 'Divine King Stomping out Satanic Infidels.'

SO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE! CHANNEL THE PASSION FOR VENGEANCE INTO
A PASSION FOR JUSTICE! People WANT to be part of a dramatic movement in their lives which TV has turned into a movie script starring Arnold Schwarzenegger, Indiana Jones, and Mel Gibson fighting evil.

Fight propaganda with...PROPER-GANDA!!!
I recommend pushing forward just 2 degrees USING those so so deeply entrenched-through-propaganda attitudes with a campaign of renewed reverence for

1) The Bill of Rights and US Constitution
2) Jesus' teachings about caring for the poor and needy.

These are the tenets of The American Revolution AND Jesus Christ AND liberalism!!

We must flip the polarity of these ideas back to caring for ALL people instead of Republican Eugenics that justifies death by both poverty and war as being necessary 'collateral damage' for the greater good of the herd.

[idiosyncratic]

42. Excellent comments. Thanks.

n/t

[Wiley50]

44. It's current buisness for some of us

[Wiley50]

45. And Someday will be current for you

[wicket]

46. They need to stop crying WOLF!

:grr: :grr: :grr: