If Clark throws his hat in the ring

[Walt Starr]

I will be behind him 100%. Right now, I'm behind Dean and I like Dean, but in all honesty, Wes Clark would kick Bush's ass all the way back to Crawford.

They can't touch him on the patriotism thing. He's unafraid of saying he's a liberal.

The man would appeal to the mushy middloe as well as the Liberal base. Should he become the Democratic nominee, Bush would be lucky to take Texas.

[nomaco-10]

1. At the risk of being redundent...

a Dean/Clark ticket would be unbeatable. Add Clark as VP to any candidate (except Lieberman) and they win in my opinion. 440 and some days left til the election, anything could happen.

[Walt Starr]

3. Add Clark as Lieberman's running mate

and I would vote for Lieberman.

At this point, though, I would prefer Clark at the head of the ticket.

[jeter]

91. Clark would be better at the top

But with every passing day - I sense Bush's desperation. He's going to lose. LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE LOSE.....

[FauxNewsBlues]

22. democratic military ticket

I would be fascinated by a Kerry/Clark ticket just to see the contortions that Karl Rove needs to go through, to turn AWOL Bush and "other priorities" Cheney into military heroes.

Would be entertaining to see democratic candidates who can say they actually experienced combat so they know what it is like on the ground, when they are asking for an end to The Madness of King George.
They could actually turn this into a chicken hawk, Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz referendum.

It does not shock me that the two republican senators who were most squeamish about the war during debates were McCain and Hagel, who not coincidentally were the two non chicken hawks on that side of the aisle.

[Catch22Dem]

35. I'd like to see

Kerry/Clark
Clark/Kerry
But I've come to the decision that I want Clark somewhere on the ticket, I don't care where.

[Julien Sorel]

51. If Clark is this potent,

why wouldn't he be at the head of the ticket? It makes sense to put your best foot forward, and you seem to think that's Clark.

[MoonRiver]

79. But Clark/Dean would be better IMO.

I know it would be a hard pill for Dean to swallow, but he is friends with Clark. AND, most importantly, they have a country to rescue. Egos should be out the door on this one.

[ThomWV]

2. I Agree With You Completely

this is an election in which I will be voting for the Democratic candidate no matter who that might end up being but given the choice I want it to be a person who actually CAN BEAT BUSH, and I do not think that any of those who have already declaired have that quality. Clark, on the other hand, is electable and CAN beat Bush. That is the only thing that is important to me at this time.

Thom

[bowens43]

4. I think that

most of the Dem candidates can beat bush. I don't trust Clark BECAUSE of his military background. I could very well be wrong but I don't like the idea of someone who is accustomed to having his orders followed unquestioningly running the country. That being said, I will support the nominee.

[HootieMcBoob]

10. Clark had to become adept at diplomacy

when dealing with NATO. There were other militaries and other heads of state that had to be dealt with there. You don't reach that position without being a bit of a political animal and learning an awful lot about diplomacy. It's not like he was ordering around a bunch of privates. He was coordinating and organizing several countries and their militaries.

[Eloriel]

84. And word is he didn't do that well at that bit of diplomacy

"I'm not going to start Third World War for you," Jackson told Clark
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208120,00.html
Behind the scenes battle over Pristina airport between British and US generals comes to light

Mark Tran
Monday August 2, 1999

Nato supreme commander General Wesley Clark is not being allowed to fade away quietly. Days after the Clinton administration relieved him of his command two months early, Newsweek is reporting that the victor of Kosovo was blocked from sending paratroopers to Pristina airport to pre-empt an unexpected Russian advance.
Lieutenant-general Sir Michael Jackson overruled General Clark because the British commander did not want to spark a clash with the Russians.

"I'm not going to start Third World War for you," General Jackson told the US commander, according to Newsweek. In the hours that followed General Clark's order, both men sought political backing for their position, but only General Jackson received it.

more

You know, there are many things I like about Clark -- he has a very warm persona on TV. Looked and sounded good on Maher last night. Decent ideas, the VERY few I've heard (and I'm glad I finally heard an explanation for that deplorable not quite being able to say he's a Democrat shit). But you guys really need to take a longer look at this man's background.

Here's a google page for you too:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Wesley+Clark+Russian+general+%3AGuardian

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

85. Ahhh, the Deanyboppers come out of the woodworks.

Is that the final word? Or are there others? Are you presenting a one-sided version of Pristina? I think you are. Mudslinging, here we come!

I wonder if Dean can transcend mud the same way he transcends mere policy.

[tjdee]

105. You don't KNOW Clark until you go to his site...

I'm tempted to say "You don't KNOW about Clark unless you go to his site and read his blog" the way you do when someone criticizes Dean.... but, Clark doesn't have an official site yet.

:-)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

18. You and Quite a Few Other Radical Left-Wing, Anti-Military Folks Here

I don't trust Clark BECAUSE of his military background.

That type of attitude smacks of unfair, kneejerk bigotry, IMO. It's undemocratic, and it's anti-progressive.

But at least you're honest about it, unlike so many others here who hide behind supposed "critiques" which are empty, vacuous and ultimately complete and utter BS.

Frankly, I'll trade the lot of you for all of the much more reasonable people who will rally around a Clark candidacy. Thankfully, they outnumber people like you by a large margin.

DTH

[Racenut20]

24. Why not tell us

What you are really thinking.

[readmylips]

29. Dove: You must have super human powers or you are G.O.D

You can see through the screen that I'm a 'radical left-wing, anti military folk...and a bigot..'

My family has a long history of military service, and my uncle was killed in WWII. I have a son in the Navy, 16 year service already. My husband is an old fart Repig Marine. And Yes, we were against the war in Iraq and we were RIGHT.

Don't be so quick to play God or are you a repig?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. If the Shoe Doesn't Fit You, Then Don't Wear It

Simple as that.

DTH, Who Was Also Against the Iraq Invasion...But Who Also Thought This Was About Clark

[Kahuna]

55. And Clark was against the war in Iraq too. So, why do you

mistrust him? There's a disconnect with your logic. It just doesn't add up.

[Sophree]

31. Radical left winger here

And proud. ;-)

Seriously though, I have to say that there are quite a few of us left-of-lefties who are not anti-military. You are right, being automatically anti-military requires no thinking (or black and white thinking at best) that usually marks conservative, not liberal philosophy.

Give the man a chance, he's the real deal.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. Good On Ya!

If you're not reflexively anti-military, like a decent proportion (based on my perception, anyway) of the radical left-wingers here, then my comment certainly was not directed at you.

:thumbsup:

DTH

[Eloriel]

86. Is it anti-military

to believe that MILITARISM isn't where America ought to be -- now or ever?

Is it anti-military to believe, deep in one's heart of hearts, that SURELY war ought to be by this time in humankind's history an anachronism? And therefore that any country's military ought to be small at best?

Is it anti-military to worry that too many people on the left of the political spectrum are hung up on testosterone and uniforms? Or that a Dem candidate just feeds an unnatural and dangerous militarism that has gripped this country since 9-11, thanks to Bush?

And is any of that black-and-white thinking?

Eloriel

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Anti-military, left wing radical, here.

I also don't "trust" Clark's military background. But, I also think that he's probably the candidate (if he ever becomes one) who would probably have the best chance to unseat the boy emperor, and I would have no qualms in voting for him.

Since when is being anti-military equated with bigotry? Does being anti-corporate also make one a "bigot". How about anti-republican?
Anti-Fascist?

You seem to fall into the trap of seeing "anti-military" as being "anti" the ordinary sad sack GI. Not true. No more so than being anti-corporation means that you hate the file clerks who work for them.

I suggest you engage your brain before applying labels.

Me: USMC 1961 - 1965
You: ?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

66. Once Again

I would have no qualms in voting for him

Then I'm not referring to you. Feel free to take offense if you wish, however.

I suggest you engage your brain before applying labels.

Ouch. You might want to take your own advice, however, since you clearly seem to be ignorant of the actual definition of bigotry:

"bigotry: The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them."

"bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

Helpful DTH

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. Then why the "bigot" appelation?

I see. So, I can be "bigoted" against the military and still win your approval (not that I give a rip)?

By your definition anyone who sticks to his opinions, "obstinately" and "unreasonably", is a bigot. Does that apply to "yellow dog" Democrats as well as "left wing radicals"? How about those that are deeply religious?

I obstinately distrust the military, the government, the media, the republican and Democratic parties, corporations, salesmen, televangelists, politicians, and a host of others. Sometimes my obstinacy crosses the line into unreasonableness and intolerance. There is possibly a televangelist who is not a shakedown artist but I don't believe it.

"partial to one's own group" Well, as far as politics go I am indeed "intolerant" of right wingers, hypocrites, and (so called) "Christian Conservatives".

In fact, I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone who doesn't fit into your definition of "bigot".

You cheapen the term.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

69. Not "My" Definition, Pal

Sounds like you have a bone to pick with Webster's, not me.

DTH

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. A convenient sidestep.

It's the definition you're using.

Do you answer any questions, or merely try to justify YOUR choice of words?

What is YOUR definition of "bigot"?

Do you consider yourself not bigoted by Webster's definition?
Do you consider those mistrustful of the "the military" to be bigots?
Do you consider those mistrustful of the corporations to be bigots?
Do you consider "yellow dog" Democrats to be bigots?

I am neither your "pal" nor a "bigot".

[DoveTurnedHawk]

75. Whatever Floats Your Boat, Pal

I like using words accurately; sorry if you don't.

:eyes:

DTH

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. "Accurately".

If you identify people who mistrust the military as "left wing bigots"
your definition of "accurately" is sorely lacking understanding.

I suggest that you try reading beyond your age level. You might discover that the simplistic use of words can have undesired effects.

Such as your inability to comprehend the meaning of words beyond the simple definitions offered by a dictionary.

Try a book without pictures for a change.

Your boat has holes in it. Do attempt to, at least, act like an adult.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

90. Wow, Wrong Again!

I never said "left-wing bigots," but trying to put words in my mouth seems to be par for your course.

Never have I seen someone so opposed to using the dictionary. It's really quite amusing...although probably not quite as amusing as seeing you so easily goaded into a froth with your weak personal attacks.

DTH

[Bake]

103. I'll take General Clark over a "Dukakis" clone any day

Several comments have been made to the effect that we have eight/nine viable candidates, any one of whom is capable of beating Smirk. Truth time: we **don't** have eight or nine viable candidates. We probably only have three or maybe four. I'll leave it to you to discuss amongst yourselves who those are.

Bake

[Catch22Dem]

36. Do you trust me?

I have a military background.

[Bake]

102. Following orders is what happens in the Executive Branch

Or at least what is supposed to happen. Don't assume that at high levels in the military there are not policy arguments.

Bake

[HootieMcBoob]

8. There are a few who could beat Bush

I think Dean or Kerry could beat bush. But, I think that any of the current candidates with Clark as a vp or with Clark at the head of the ticket and one of the other candidates as vp could not only beat bush but could beat bush in a landslide. I would without question vote for any dem candidate in the general but I can't help having visions of LANDSLIDE when we add Clark into the mix :toast:

[Walt Starr]

65. I think that clearly half the field right now could beat Bush

I think that Clark would thoroughly thrash Bush and I would love to see a clean sweep of every electoral vote against the boy king-wannabe.

[Clark Can WIN]

49. Amen to that

Here we have a candidate who has basicaly stood up and said you know what, to hell with the usual labels, label this (obscene gesture)

He's a liberal who can make the moderates feel all warm and fuzzy inside. He has the best chance to beat Bush like a rented freakin mule all the way back to Crawford in humiliation. I hate to impose that on the citizens of Texas, but it must be done.

[Kahuna]

56. Not to mention, get so many Dems at the polls that we take back the

senate and maybe the house too. We need somebody who will get the greatest number of voters out on election day. Clark supporters believe Clark can do that. We believe that people will not just be motivated to vote against bush, but to actually want to vote for Clark. Because Clark really stands for non-partisan bickering and wants to really unite us.

[Democat]

5. Clark is going to get a lot of people excited

I think it's possible that Clark's campaign will ignite big grass roots excitement. Something even bigger than the great response we've seen to Dean.

Dean has gotten people excited, but I think the feeling for many people with Dean is that he's a great guy, but he probably can't beat Bush.

Clark can win.

[jumptheshadow]

13. I agree

If he runs I suspect we'll see a lot of political neophytes start working the streets for him. Quite a few of them will be over 35 and it will be their first brush with activism of any kind. Many of these newcomers will see our nation's current situation as a defining moment for themselves.

Most of the new volunteers will be white. That concerns me. We must serve and energize our minority constituents. The Democratic candidates have to find a way to do this.

[Kahuna]

58. I can almost guarantee you that Clark will be very attractive and

motivating to black voters. I think Clark can get at least as many voters out as Gore did. We need a candidate who can ignite Americans to take our country back. Blacks will be there for Clark. We like manly men. :7

[Clark Can WIN]

53. Clark can WIN

Clark can win.


Hhhhhmmmmmm............ where have I heard that?:pals:

[Eloriel]

87. The only people who believe that about Dean

(that he can't beat Bush) are listening to other people who also don't know what they're talking about.

Eloriel

[poskonig]

6. The GOP *can* chew up Clark on the patriotism thing.

Voting for someone on the basis of using a title as a security blanket is a big mistake. Remember, Clark's position on Iraq is the same as Dean's.

The GOP trashed Max Cleland, and they can certainly trash Clark, a political novice. The "you support bin Laden and Saddam" crap is still in play. The GOP can also quote high ranking personnel that disagree with Clark and do a compare and contrast session.

We are going to beat the GOP attacks, which are inevitable, with a lot of fundraising and organizing shitloads of supporters. Jettisoning this for a nice title is folly, IMHO.

[Democat]

9. What is being jettisoned?

Clark's grass roots support, along with his ability to organize, fundraise, and mobilize, may very well be stronger than Dean's, if that's what you're referring to.

Once he announces, watch what happens. I expect it will be interesting.

[OKNancy]

12. But, your post makes the perfect case for Clark

You write: Remember, Clark's position on Iraq is the same as Dean's.
You are right and Dean will get trashed ten times more than Clark. Dean is not immune, in fact they have already started.

You have your candidate, and I think you should support him with all your heart, but there are a lot of us who have not. Looking at Clark is not a slam on Dean.

[Donna Zen]

20. Please note:

Tony Zinni blasted the regime this week...now why is that? Do we seriously think that Clark has not done the risk analysis? His authority on the issues is the deepest of any of the candidates.

People are dying right now folks...in what looks like an endless war. How the fuck do you propose we get out of this? Clark's job on the Joint Chiefs was policy wonk. At the end of his first week in the post, North Korea suddenly became a crisis (read possible war) situation. What did Clark do? Instead of going on a 35 day vacation to a pig farm, he rolled up his sleeves, stayed up for two days and worked on diffusing the North Korean bombshell.

[poskonig]

23. Clark is a newb.

Some of the candidates have a talent for raising money and organizing support. If we don't have that, we lose. We counter Bush spin with massive amounts of people and money, not with titles.

I'm not certain trading campaign skill for a title (which seems to be the only thing that makes Clark stand out from the other 9) looks like a good switch from a strategic perspective.

[robbedvoter]

28. Ha!ha! You'll be surprised at the organization Clark has in place!

There are groups, meet-ups in every state in the country - and almost every country in the world too! Tens of thousands of people eager to spring in action and become hundreds of thousands fast (I am talking activists, not voters). Didn't you get any clue from this board? I am just now researching this and it blew my mind! The grassroots started this and the Clark movement is in full swing! (a big bunch of them were on the Maher show wearing their "Draft Clark" T-shirts last night). You may have heard them!

[poskonig]

34. Look at the facts; Clark doesn't have the goods.

Clark (or at least his supporters) has been running draft ads. How is he polling in NH and Iowa? Usually in the 2-3% range. How much money did Clark raise in Q3? Some got up to 15 million, Clark raised a million in monopoly money. Or look at meetup numbers. Some have close to 110,000 signed up, while Clark trails behind Kucinich with about 11K.

In other words, I'm being asked to not vote for the candidate with the best chances to beat Bush (and this takes $$ and supporters) but instead to vote for the person with the cutest title.

I know some of you like Clark, but his military title alone isn't a convincing reason for me, anyway, to switch candidates.

[robbedvoter]

44. How is he polling? He HASN"T DECLARED YET! WHAT POLLS?

You're funny! You want to compare the numbers of a prospective candidate with people in the race for months? You win! The outsider HAS NOT BEEN POLLED - other than on DU - where he wins.

[Sophree]

48. I don't think it's solely his military background

Although that is a plus because it trumps the perceived Rethug. advantage on defense.

It's his gravitas, his eloquence, his political sanity.

[tjdee]

64. Cute title?! And PLEASE, with the meetups!

I'm sorry, but military rank is no more a "cute title" than any other position that has to be earned.

Is Doctor a "cute title"?

Is President a "cute title"?

Argh, that is so disrespectful, to me. Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine or something. When people earn a title, it's not "cute" if they use it. There's a lot of hard work behind that.

And, as everyone knows, Dean's support comes from a large number of internet savvy people. Meetup is....wait for it....an internet site.
There IS a world outside of the internet. And the man didn't even declare yet--the fact that ANY are meeting for him, when that may be a lost cause, is pretty impressive. How are the Gore meetup numbers? The Hillary meetup numbers?

Oh come on.

[Kahuna]

60. Clark will do alright in that department. His supporters are just as

motivated as Dean supporters. Also in case you haven't noticed, the general media and our own liberal bigwigs (Lyons, Conason, Moore, Maher, Garafalo) like Clark.

I mean, the cynic Maher was begging Clark to run last night. Sure he used it in the context as for his mother. But it was more to it than that. He was begging for himself too. The day Clark announces there will be a collective sigh of relief, IMHO.

[Eloriel]

89. VERY well said -- and I'll repeat it

I'm not certain trading campaign skill for a title (which seems to be the only thing that makes Clark stand out from the other 9) looks like a good switch from a strategic perspective.

What also concerns me is that so many people (and HERE, of all places) flock to him without really knowing anything about himt. It only matters that he's a military guy.

I'll take executive experience in a civilian setting over ANY and ALL military experience. I was married to the Army once -- it's real different from civilian life. When generals say something, they fully expect that what they said will be carried out. It's a rude awakening for them when that doesn't happen. He won't do that well with most of Congress and will likely NEVER understand why the Dems in Congress don't vote in unison on most issues. After 25 or so years of getting whatever he wants done done, I'm not at all sure putting him in the White House would be that good for the left.

Eloriel

[Donna Zen]

98. Maybe...we'll see

Re: Some of the candidates have a talent for raising money and organizing support.

Clark has reflected on his learning curve for partisan politics, but regarding money and support...Clark has been working as an investment banker (and here's the important for me) developing emerging technologies by putting together their financing.

The money and latest may influence his decision about becoming a candidate, but his ability to walk that walk have been proven. See Next Wave, a company developing hydrogen engines.

[MoonRiver]

80. Look I like Dean too, but Clark would be more electable, IMO.

And regarding Cleland, I think the new electronic voting machines in GA were the culprets leading to his defeat. After all, Cleland was ahead in the polls up to the end. This was one of those many "surprise" 2002 election results, most of which occurred in states with, ta da, computerized voting machines.

[Walt Starr]

81. I think Dean can take Bush

But I think Clark would thrash Bush so badly that it would be an historical precedence.

In fact, I think Clark could end up taking every damn state in the Union including Texas.

[TheBigGuy]

7. Clark would move to the top three of my "undecided' list

Right now its Kucinich, Edwards and a fluctuating #3. If Clark runs he would be a solid number three....i would be picking from Kucinich, Edwards, and Clark.

[FauxNewsBlues]

14. It's tough

I like alot of the candidates (except Lieberman). I am so desperate to get the smirking chimp out of the white house, that I will vote for Lieberman if that is what it takes.

Oh, I will personally bitch slap Ralph Nader if he goes for it again in 2004, and claim that the EPA rules, the tax cuts and everything else would have happened under Gore too, so he is off to run again.

I was mad at the Greens for awhile after 2000, and I have forgiven them. I understand the frustration. However, once bitten twice shy. They have no excuse anymore. They do know that the two parties aren't the same. If they are willing to risk 4 more years of * just to prove a point, they have completely utterly lost it for me forever.

I could even see myself voting Dean/Clark, or Clark/Dean. If we are going strictly by electoral maps, I actually don't want my preferred candidate Dean to win. We lost Arkansas last time, and we lost Missouri in the 2002 Senate race. I wouldn't be upset with a Clark/Gephardt ticket

[southern democrat]

15. I am fully aware of what the republicans did to Max

Cleland.That stuff might have worked last year in a southern state that had low voter turnout.If they try that shit now at a national level they will be fucking themselves.With troops out in the field of combat and a smear campaign going on agianst a decorated veteran as Clark is it would affect troop morale.And by the time the primary season is over morale will already be low.I don't doubt they will try it but it won't work in 2004 and I'll tell you another thing,if Cleland ran agianst Chambless now ,Cleland would win.Chambless got alot of coattail votes off Perdue who only got elected because of the flag issue.Perdue has raised taxes and hasn't done a damn thing to get their precious confedreate flag back.Many of the voters in Georgia know they fucked up last year.It won't happen agian.Wesley Clark:Simply the "future of the democratic party,the future of America"

[blm]

70. That loss unleashed the FIRE in Max Cleland.

Bush and Rove will feel the heat of the Max Cleland Revenge Tour 2004.

He's going to be in every state, in every town with a Veteran's organization heading up Veterans for Kerry and he plans to tell those vets EVERYTHING that Bush is doing to them and the current military.

[quinnox]

11. If Clark joins

on Sept. 19, he would be in time to participate in the Sept. 25 debate. It would add some spice to the race.

[readmylips]

16. Clark is a Military guy...we need a healer....

and not another gun swinging military guy. We got plenty of those with little man bush. I'm for Doctor Howard Dean. If the public don't know who the other candidates are, for sure they will not know Clark. The only most popular person in the USA and the world is Hillary Clinton. My family from NYC suspect that the main reason why Hillary will not run; Prez Clinton will run for governor of NY after Pendeho Petaki's term is over.

Kerry is a close friend of the Bushes. He met his wife through the bushies. How can Kerry swing the truth against his best friends? Kerry may be a long-time-ago military hero, but this is today and the bushie regime eat raw meat for the pleasure of it. Ask Max Clealan. Kerry will be chewed up and spit out by kkkarl rove and little man bushie.

[southern democrat]

17. All I know

if your tyring to put Clark down to the same level as Bush you need new glasses.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

19. No Kidding

Some folks have tried to compare Clark to Schwarzenegger on this board. It's absolutely hilarious, how off-base and clueless that comparison is.

DTH

[Donna Zen]

21. Symptomatic

of the "Blinded by Medals" syndrome.

[Kahuna]

61. Thank you. That was an ad hominem attack based upon

pure ignorance.

[HootieMcBoob]

26. "gun swinging military guy"?

You obviously haven't listened to a single word Clark has been saying.

Because he has a military career doesn't in the least bit put him in that category.

In fact most of the people who got us into this iraq quagmire never served a single day in the military. Clark was a vocal critic of this iraq policy from the beginning. Most of the military people were advising against invading iraq. It was the pnac neo-con civilians who never wore a uniform but get hard-ons for every weapons contract that they see who pushed us into this.

I'm not suggesting that you stop supporting Dean but you need to look more closely at Clark before you make a statement that is so clearly off base regarding the man's character.

[Bake]

106. Ad hominem is lousy debate tactic

In today's world, you damn well better have somebody who at least knows HOW to swing the gun, and more importantly, WHEN to swing the gun. Calling Clark a "gun swinging military guy" is nothing more than an ad hominem attack that doesn't address the truth at all. Clark is on record as opposing the Iraq war and criticizing the pathetic planning for the occupation. Any president who looks, to the rest of the world, like a wimp endangers US interests; any candidate who comes off like Dukakis is toast.

Bake

[robbedvoter]

25. If you watched him last night, maybe you noticed he raised the level

of the debate. When explaining his reasons to consider running, he said: "It's not Iraq, it's not the economy." It's the democracy stupid - OK I made up that last part - but that's what he meant when he talked about the exchange of opinions between the two parties and making decisions based on that.
He reprised the theme in the "proud to be a liberal" answer: this country was founded on enlightenment - reason. We discuss things - we don't have someone who has all the right answers from above"
This is his theme : recapture democracy. That's why, my guy overcame his distaste for the military when he heard that.
Clark is not just bashing W on policies and offers better ones, he stomps for democracy. And I can't wait to help him!

[HootieMcBoob]

27. I'm with you there

I've donated money to candidates before but I've never worked for a candidate. If Clark runs I would do whatever was needed. Handing out flyers, making phone calls anything. This is the guy who has it all. Also, he has the potential to unite the country. A true uniter. Not just rhetoric.

[Donna Zen]

71. Volunteer?

Draftclark is currently putting together a list. Just tell them where you are, do you have any special skills, and what you have in mind.

[e-mail]

Oh_and spread the word.

[HootieMcBoob]

74. Thanks for the info

I'll send them an email. :)

[Kahuna]

62. "It's the democracy stupid." So true. That's exactly what he's saying...

HE put his life on the line to defend democracy. He knows what he has sacrificed 34 years of his for.

[dofus]

33. On September 13

in Indianola, Iowa, Sen Tom Harkin will be hosting a steak fry, which I understand is a "must attend" event for people running for president. I understand Bill Clinton will be there. Howard Dean and most, if not all, of the people running for president will also be there. The Dean Meetup in Kansas City has chartered two busses and will be sending more than 100 people to attend the event. (I'm one of them).

If Clark is serious about running, shouldn't he be in Indianola next Saturday?

added on edit: For what it's worth, there are 108,000 Dean supporters signed up on Meetup, and about 11,000 Clark supporters. So I need to ask, what grass-roots organization does Clark already have in place?

[Catch22Dem]

37. 11,000

for a guy who hasn't declared his candidacy is pretty good. So, let's take another look at those numbers when the playing fields are even.

[Woodstock]

38. Clark will also face a great deal of difficulty catching up with $$$

Most of the pundits are saying even if he throws his hat in the ring, it's really for VP. I like the Dean/Clark ticket.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

39. The Clinton Donors

Are largely uncommitted, apparently. Additionally, he will certainly have enough (based on existing pledges alone) to start a concerted fundraising push, and the more people hear about Clark, the more they like him, generally.

I have little doubt that Clark will kick ass in the fundraising department soon after he declares.

DTH

[Woodstock]

40. I'm getting this from the experts

I've heard from countless people on countless shows and articles that $$$ will be hard for Clark this late. I trust they are aware of "Clinton donors" as they formulated this opinion.

I'm not trying to take the wind out of your sails. I want to beat Bush, and I think Clark has potential.

One thing that needs to be taken into account - Clark has no experience governing, no record. But he has lots of other relevant experience. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

41. I Guess We'll Have to See

I've read what experts have said, as well. Mine must differ from yours.

:shrug:

Anyway, we'll hopefully see for ourselves, in short order.

DTH

[southern democrat]

42. Conventional wisdom didn't give Dean a chance

Nor does it give Clark a chance,last year it didn't give Republicans much of a chance to expand their majorities in the house and seanate,it also didn't give Jesse Ventura much of a chance in Minn.SO MUCH FOR CONVENTIONAL WISDOM.CLARK IS IN AND HE WILL WIN AND WHEN IT'S OVER I WILL GRIN!

[Woodstock]

96. No, these were reasonable people I respect

And yes, I of all people know Dean beat the odds.

These people aren't out to get Clark. It's just a question of plain and simple physical TIME. A LOT of money is required to get elected.

And I think Clark is aware of the time and the disadvantage of waiting - that's why I think he's really getting in the ring for VP.

I wish him luck whatever way it goes. As I said, I like the guy. Just bringing up something to keep in mind.

[Pepperbelly]

101. I think your perceptions are in error on all counts ...

the delay has been the smartest political move I have ever seen and I suspect that it was on Bill Clinton's advice.

So far as money goes ... pffft ...

Virtually ALL of the big money donors have thus far sat this one out. They are waiting to see the shape of it.

[robbedvoter]

46. The experts? Oh, if the experts are against it, let's pack and go

home. It's funny to me how just because you support a candidate in the race and feel threatened, you are unaware of sounding just like Faux. The experts also say that W is an unmeatable popular preznit and no one should dare run against him.

[Woodstock]

97. Getting a little emotional, aren't you?

Telling me I'm threatened and just like Fox News because I pointed out in the middle of a thread - and this one is new thread worthy if any is - that he faces a challenge raising money?

The challenge is reality. We in the Dean camp didn't DENY the challenge we faced - how could we? It was the truth. Do you want the challenge not to be mentioned at all? Or imply people are threatened or sound like the Republican media if they do bring it up? That doesn't sound like a wise strategy.

Challenges can be overcome. If you are really for Clark, then I'm sure you are aware of this one, and have a plan in place to overcome it ( besides just relying on "Clinton donors".) Just like we did for Dean - and I don't envy you the task, because we had a lot more time than you. It's been a lot of hard work for us to get this far.

As I said, I wish the best for Clark. I'd like to see a Dean/Clark ticket, but I'd be proud to cast a vote for Clark alone if it came to it. I like him more than any of the others. Don't assume everyone is "the enemy" - it's not a good way to win people to your side.

[Kahuna]

63. They're not experts. They have opinions just like you and me.

That's it. They said Dean couldn't do it too. But he's doing it.

[11cents]

43. Well, you've got us there

> Most of the pundits are saying even if he throws his hat in the ring, it's really for VP. I like the Dean/Clark ticket.

OK, we give up then. Pundits are really, really smart and just about always know what they're talking about, having their fingers on the pulse of the public as they do. After all, they were right about Dean from the beginning.

[robbedvoter]

47. Ha!ha! Sorry I didn't read your post before posting.

Same as mine, only funnier!

[robbedvoter]

45. Dean has been running - Clark hasn't started yet. Still, you are

threatened just the same. That tells me a lot.
I've been to a dean rally in NYC - I was impressed. Dean touched a nerve: people are angry at bush. Clark is finding the reason for the anger: not the war, not the economy, but calling us focus groups, stealing our votes - the attacks on Constitution, civil rights. "It's the democracy, stupid" is bigger that: "It's the war stupid, but I am with NRA and not a liberal"

[Wendec]

52. Touched a nerve

You are right about Dean touching a nerve, and I was/am interested in him for that reason.

However, the more I hear, the more I feel like I'm listening to the Democratic version of George Bush. Bush, and his manner, have been so incredibly divisive, and I'm not interested in maintaining the divide, regardless of who is in power.

I'm attracted to Clark, NOT because of his "cute title" as some have put it, but because he appears to me to be able to articulate a progressive agenda without dropping down to the level of smirks and anger.

[tjdee]

78. Shouldn't you be comparing Clark's meetups to Hillary's or Gore's?

Comparing Clark's meetup numbers to Dean's has to be one of the FUNNIEST things I've ever seen at DU.

Meetup.com? That's the end all be all of political support?

[sujan]

50. wake me up when he does.......

[GOPBasher]

54. Me too

I love everthing I hear about Clark. And I think he has a better chance of beating Bush than anyone else running.

[GalleryGod]

57. Walt,I rarely agree with you. I Do,INDEED,in this CASE.

:yourock: Clark would clean President PeePeePants's clock!:scared:

[SweetZombieJesus]

67. Well, he's my number two choice

Not ready to abandon Dean just yet, since I still think he's got the goods to beat Bush. But if it ends up being Wesley, I'd damn sure fight as hard for him as I would for Dean. Don't know if I could say the same about some of the other front-runners.

[imax2268]

72. right now

I'm with Dean...but I will definetly go with Clark if he chooses to run...Dean and Clark should hook up...but if not I will definetly go with Clark...
He will have BushCo sweating...

[durutti]

76. Clark would save the Democrats

He needs to run.

[Kahuna]

82. I agree. We've all been bellyaching about the lack of Democratic..

leadership. Too bad we ousted the best guy we had., Al Gore. What a miserable mistake that was. I see Clark as the second coming of Gore.
Clark sounds a lot like Gore and the issues including Iraq. I hope they are friends. Clark can use a wise friend like Gore if he makes this run.

[Julien Sorel]

83. I wince when I see stuff like that.

First, because I do not think the Democratic Party is in need of being saved; and second, because I believe Clark's candidacy is about much more than the Democratic Party, or sending the simian back to Texas, or wherever he will slink off to. Clark's candidacy represents an almost unique opportunity to restore some meaning to the word 'liberal,' which word has been degraded to the point where it is almost meaningless (kind of like the word 'terrorist'). Clark has the opportunity to drive a wedge between the military and the Right of this country, which have been in bed together for far too long. Then there is the policy stuff -- shoring up our international reputation, getting decent people on the Supreme Court (no more Scabies Scalias); a more rational approach to Affirmative Action: and so on. Clinton couldn't do this because he was always restrained by the modern image of a Democrat; as a military guy, Clark can move beyond that.

[Walt Starr]

92. I agree Billy

What he could do the best, IMO, is take away the "dirty" connotations from the word "liberal"

[southern democrat]

104. I agree that the Democratic

party is not in such poor shape as it needs saving.But I do see Clark as the future of the party.He takes the debate to a new level.Many misconceptions of our party that are advanced through the media and the republicans can be discounted by Gen.Clark.I personally believe that a truck driver that was vietnam vet should have their voice heard when they are voicing concerns about the unnessacary use of military force but unfortunately people and the media do not take common Americans seriously.Clark brings the ability to raise these questions and for them to be heard.This man is truly compasionate and respected.I haved followed Clark for years and I have never seen him express anger on TV.He always appears to have a clear level head.I get sick and tired of hearing the media and repiblicans trying to brainwash the American people that only ones willing to fight to protect America are Republicans.Wesley Clark is living proof this is a lie.My father was a WWII vet as well as so many other Democratic vetreans.Yes they did persecute Max Cleland,but this pattern must and will be corrected.There are reservations from members of our party no doubt,but to dismiss the fact that America is not liked everywhere around the world and we do have enemies is niave.George Bush has made America less liked around the world,therefore we are less secure.His actions have proven the case for a Wesley Clark presidency.Wesley Clark will make military decisions from the prospective of a person who has been in combat,who has been injured,who knowns the value of human life,who knows the importance of allies.He also knows the importance of the free life of Americans.Why make these sacrifices if we can't protect our liberties,our way of life,our personal happiness,our finanical stability,our committment to our elderly,children,and vetreans,our committment to a clean enviroment,I could go on and on.When I see Wesley Clark I see a man who represents the strength and diversity of our pary and the strength and diversity of America.I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN.I AM PROUD TO BE A DEMOCRAT,AND I AM PROUD TO SUPPORT WESLEY CLARK!

[snyttri]

88. Clark might be the best candidate. The tough primary should also give

a good idea if he would be the best President.

[Paragon]

93. Sorry, but...

Clark's entire candidacy smells of buying into the perception that Democrats are soft/have failed on national defense - an decisive mindset and wholly untrue.

[snyttri]

94. Clark may be the most effective critic of the war in Iraq, but he

offers much more than that.

He has expressed progessive positions across the board on domestic issues. He may be the most articulate spokesman for progressive issues, not because of his military background, but because he seems to have the ability to connect with people and persuade those who are not already committed to liberalism.

Also he says he is a liberal; something the current crop of leading Democratic candidates seem afraid to do; and something Democratic national candidates have been reluctant to do for a long time.

[Woodstock]

100. I get the same sense about Clark that I do about Dean

They are both good, decent people - who won't forget who elected them - and who won't be beholden to the corporations at our expense. Maybe it's gut instinct, and maybe it's wrong, but that's what I feel.

[lanlady]

95. I'm with you, Walt Starr

I'll bet there are many distinguished but disaffected military brass out there who are whispering encouragements in Clark's ear. They hate Rummie and they won't be rid of him unless Bush is run out of town. And Clark is just the man to do it. I'm also a Dean supporter but at this point, it's like a sacred historical duty of Americans to purge this country of the Busheviks forever!

[Donna Zen]

99. Made my morning!

it's like a sacred historical duty of Americans to purge this country of the Busheviks forever!

I love it...."sacred" Now I can adjust my world lens to include DU as a trip to a temple of the truth tellers. Yes!

[Bake]

107. Photoshoppers: A graphic I'd love to see!

Somebody has in their sig line two photos of Clark, the one on the left shows him in fatigues, stars on his cap, leaning into the cockpit of a fighter jet. I'd LOVE to see that photo juxtaposed against Smirk in his codpiece flight suit. I think that should be a campaign BILLBOARD all over the country.

Any takers?

Bake