Could someone help me with a response to Freeper I Work With

[complain jane]

Discussion today about politics, he says the problem with the Democratic Party is that the Democrats need to keep poor people poor so they can promise them extra benefits.

?

Also claims Bill Clinton told "black people" when he moved to Harlem that he was going to give them "special extra benefits" because "they were black", and according to The Freeper That I Work With, this is an example of "what Democrats do" and why we're "so out of favor with the American people".

He caught me all off guard and I just got pissed off.

[bobweaver]

1. Never converse with these people, period.

[NightTrain]

2. Ask him to cite the sources of his allegations.

And if he can't cite them, or if he says Fox News or talk radio, tell him that shit keeps him ignorant and that he ought to try some real news sources for a change.

[Eric J in MN]

3. The burden of proof is on him to prove that quote (nt)

nt

[LoZoccolo]

4. A lot of economic arguments are here.

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com

"Beat the Right in Three Minutes" has unemployment statistics for Democratic vs. Republican administrations.
http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/beattherightinthree.htm

[complain jane]

14. sweeet! thanks!

[purduejake]

5. I'd avoid politics at work...

I've cut off friendships over politics and do not want these matters and emotions to interfere with my work performance. I'd just tell him you don't want to talk about the subject anymore.

[complain jane]

11. Normally I do, but

I've known him for 6 years so it's a little different for him. Otherwise I wouldn't get into it. But even in my political arguments with him, the guy is actually my friend. Regardless- these are the things he believes and I want to be able to straighten him out. He knows what I think of Bush and Faux news already.

[purduejake]

22. Good luck.

I've tried to enlighten people as well and it's only worked once. My best friend holds some political beliefs I have a problem with, so we just avoid the topic like the plague. Actions are much stronger than words. I tend to draw people to the left by demonstrating compassion and open-mindedness to things they go through. For example, I (almost) never condemn anybody for making a mistake that repukes would be howling at. Nobody's perfect, and everybody is deserving of equality unless they demonstrate otherwise by limiting the freedoms of others.

[complain jane]

30. I agree. The thing is,

I think this guy has nothing but freepers around him, in his family, etc. and if he's going to discuss politics with me I want to be able to take his propaganda apart for him instead of just walking away. I don't think I'll ever change his mind. But if I can show him the idiocy of some of things he says, I'll be happy. Who knows if it's possible.

[complain jane]

6. But all I could stammer out in my total disdain for him was

a thoughtful and eloquent "Who the f said THAT?" and he said here, let's go online, and was about to when I got called away in a meeting.

Where can I go to read up on stuff like this? I mean read up on what programs the Dems have or anything about this.

Obviously, politics is all new to me, I don't know squat about how to answer him.

[noamnety]

7. little factual problem

Dems are the ones supporting an increase in minimum wage; republicans oppose adjusting it to inflation, which hasn't been done since before Bush was in office.

This would suggest that the republicans are the ones wanting to keep a slave labor class. The push for a regressive (sales) tax, along with lowering income taxes for the rich, also has the effect of making the poor poorer.

I could speculate on why that is (that phrase cannon fodder comes to mind), but the reality is that the policies of the republicans consistently work to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

I would refuse to dignify the Clinton quote with a response until he provides a source, it sounds like an urban legend.

[neuvocat]

8. Tell him to stop being such a pathological liar.

[LostInAnomie]

9. So if we keep the poor people poor to promise them benefits...

... then what reason do the Repugs have for going out of their way to fuck them over every chance they get?

I guess it is just out of spite.

[lastknowngood]

10. Any time a freeper says anything it's a lie. Call it a lie and tell them

to prove the truth of the assss ertion with facts from unbiased sources. That shuts them up all the time because they are just repeating Rash Limpballs or Jerry Foulmouth talking points.

[saltpoint]

12. No sense continuing conversations with a slanderous --

-- moron.

Hit the cafes and bookshops, hook up with some progressive folks, and talk with them instead.

[complain jane]

13. To elaborate further,

he was trying to back up the claim that Democrats are making it harder for minorities by holding them back with things like Affirmative Action- which he seems to think is "special rights" and bigotry. He said people don't like that, minorities don't like that.

Also said that Dems better not challenge Gonzalez, otherwise we'll "lose the Hispanic vote" because according to him, Hispanics are already fed up with us because we hold them back and insult them with things like Affirmative Action.

I just stare in disbelief.

[1monster]

15. Tell him that the Republicans have think tanks for making up lies

and distortions to feed to the gullible party faithful who are too damned lazy to check out the facts for themselves...

To prove it, pull up some of Rush Limbaugh's whoppers and the truth behind the lies.

[PA Democrat]

16. Ask him how that is possible

when Democrats support raising the minimum wage, and Republicans do not

when Democrats support worker rights to organize, and Republicans have worked to systematically destroy unions

when Democrats have supported financial assistance to low income students so that they can afford to go to college, while Republicans have cut financial assistance

when Democrats were the party to create Social Security so that the elderly would not have to live in poverty, while Republicans say that they will cut benefit by a third to enrich their Wall Street as part of their "privatization" scheme

Ask him also if the sun rises in the west in his alternate reality.

[deignan]

17. Response

You should tell him that poverty is relative and that the poor here are richer than the rich in many contries.

On the second point, ask him why he still keeps up with Clinton so closely. What does it matter what Clinton says?


The more thoughtful response (tried and true damage control) is to admit that affirmative action by its design is intended to be what it is. It is anti-egalitarian (a reason for the problems of the DNC and it has outlived its utility by consensus). Naturally, many people don't mind special perogatives. Would it be any different (was it) when the shoe was on the other foot?

You don't have to defend everything just because it is attacked. Being thoughtful is more persuasive -- invariably.

[GreyRoofoo]

18. A goverment helping its less fortunate constituents?

I guess we only do it for votes instead of helping human beings.

[complain jane]

23. Some sort of similar statement was in my response to him, actually.

I said that programs like Affirmative Action may not be perfect but that they are designed to help people and what has the Repug party done for them? How has the Repug party done any better? And his response was "Bush wants to create a climate of ownership" to which I responded, that's a nice sound bite but how does that help someone who can't afford to own anything?

[newyawker99]

36. Hi GreyRoofoo!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[jobycom]

19. Put some habenero sauce in his coffee

You've heard the old line about not trying to teach a pig manners? Same with Freepers. Just say "That's the type of Bullshit I'm used to from you liars" and walk away. Then he'll have to prove it to you, and he won't be able to, so he'll be the one mad, not you.

The habenero sauce makes it even better. But be careful-- too much, and it can be considered assault.

[complain jane]

24. He gets grilled on a regular basis from my coworkers.

There are a small handful of freepers at work but most of us hate Bush. Especially in my (graphics) department. My bosses hate Bush, except for one who teeters on the edge at times and really worries me. One minute he cringes when Bush is on tv and says "He's so full of shit" and then when bin Laden's on the tv he cringes and says "they hate us for our freedoms".

:shrug:

[OutsourceBush]

20. report him to homeland security as a terrorist

he will see what the republican fascists are all about real fast.

[Catherine Vincent]

21. Just ask the idiot for proof. If he doesn't have it, tell him to

SHUT THE FUCK UP! And not speak to you again.

[complain jane]

25. Thanks for the responses --

Next time we have a free moment I'll tell him to show me the Clinton thing online, since he says all I have to do is look it up. I didn't want to look it up with him until I asked about it here first and if such a thing did take place (which I would have been sure would have been a quote taken out of context anyway, it always is) I wanted a strong response, or at the very least to have some clue about what I was talking about.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. This guy is full of freeperganda. I duke it out with another one online all the time, but the online one is so full of ridiculous garbage he's not worth seriously responding to. This guy at work is someone I've known for 6 years though and despite his freeperness, he's a nice guy otherwise and somewhat of a friend.

So, when I have a political discussion with him, I want to be able to put him in his place firmly and with info to back myself up, rather than just walk away. If I just walk away he'll chalk that up to a victory.

[booley]

26. What have the Republicans ever done to help the poor?

when it comes ot Dems, I can think of medicaid, Social Security, the GI Bill, headstart, public schools, Pell grants..numerouse things designed to help the poor not be so poor. or to keep people from becoming poor in the first place.

What have Republicans done?

[SweetLeftFoot]

27. You could

do some "overtime", wait until he's gone home and then put some prawns in the curtain rods of his office. failing that, take a shit in his desk drawer.

[complain jane]

37. LOL

[LisaLL]

28. economic and social policy

The driving force of the Democratic Policies is that a rising tide raises all ships. Our policies make the economy and communities better for everyone (contributing to the common good, improving the great equalizer of public education, etc). The Conservative Policies are driven by creating further differences between poor and wealthy. Conservative economics demands a conservative wealthy elite, rewards the wealthy and punishes the poor.

I highly recommend reading "Don't think of an Elephant" by George Lakoff. It's a quick read and gives an excellent model for the differences in Progressive vs Conservative Values and explains why each side supports the policies they do. It has improved my ability to discuss these issues.

Values-based answers have been working well for me. Read George Lakoff. (If you google: <Lakoff chelsea elephant> the first chapter is online.

[LisaLL]

29. ask him to define the problem and discuss what is effective

Elevate the discussion. He is engaging in name-calling.

" I think it is valuable to define what problems we feel should be solved and learn about what are effective ways to address these problems. Name-calling lowers the discussion to knee-jerk reactions and nobody learns anything.

It sounds like you are concerned about poverty. I, too, am concerned about poverty. I also value effective problem-solving. If we both feel that poverty is a problem worth adressing, why don't we discuss what can be most effective. Without labels or name-calling. You go research some solutions and so will I. We'll discuss tomorrow. "

[leesa]

31. There is just nothing about what he said that makes any sense. Don't

bother with him...he is creating his own fantasy.

[lectrobyte]

32. You're probably wasting your time. I think the best thing to do

would be to get him fired so he can learn firsthand about the need for a social safety net and those "special extra benefits" he seems so concerned about.

[shadowknows69]

33. my family wasn't poor during democratic presidencies

we've been pretty damn close for the last 4 years.

[gollygee]

34. I always thought the Republicans like to keep people poor

so there's a big pool of cheap labor available.

[rockymountaindem]

35. I find...

that if at first you can't respond, look at them like they're a babbling fool and seem not to take them seriously. If you're someone they respect, then that alone might cause them to question what they've just said. Then you go do research to make a real response.

I don't know about the Clinton stuff, but as to the first accusation you should say "That's pretty manipulative and insensitive, and I think the Democratic party is Innocent until proven guilty" and then ask him for any proof he's got that his claim is true. Of course, you should tell him that the opinions of partisan hacks like Rush, Hannity and O'Rielley do not constitute evidence.