Need some tips from DUers

[progressoid]

My mother-in-law showed me this email (she's way RW). I ignored it, but I know it will come up in conversation soon. She'll want to use it to show me how great the GOP is and how evil the Dems are. I have a few responses ready but would like some more ammo from you people.

Here's the email:


Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

Capital Gains Tax

CDL license Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Court Fines
(indirect taxes)

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax
(FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel permit tax

Gasoline Tax
(42 cents per gallon)

Hunting License Tax

Inheritance Tax Interest expense
(tax on the money)

Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges
(tax on top of tax)

IRS Penalties
(tax on top of tax)

Liquor Tax

Local Income Tax

Luxury Taxes

Marriage License Tax

Medicare Tax

Property Tax

Real Estate Tax

Septic Permit Tax

Service Charge Taxes

Social Security Tax

Road Usage Taxes
(Truckers)

Sales Taxes

Recreational Vehicle Tax

Road Toll Booth Taxes

School Tax

State Income Tax

State Unemployment Tax
(SUTA)

Telephone federal excise tax

Telephone federal universal service fee tax

Telephone federal, state and
local surcharge taxes

Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax

Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax

Telephone state and local tax

Telephone usage charge tax

Toll Bridge Taxes

Toll Tunnel Taxes

Traffic Fines
(indirect taxation)

Trailer registration tax

Utility Taxes

Vehicle License Registration Tax

Vehicle Sales Tax

Watercraft registration Tax

Well Permit Tax

Workers Compensation Tax

COMMENTS:
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

[bryant69]

1. That's the Conservatives in this country

Building a Bridge to the 19th century.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[progressoid]

5. like it!

[deadparrot]

2. We had no debt when Clinton left office, too.

[progressoid]

6. Like it!

[Dookus]

16. no

we had mounds and mounds of debt when Clinton left office. But we did have a budget surplus.

[deadparrot]

20. Sorry, my mistake.

[RagingInMiami]

3. 100 years ago we didn't spend billions invading other countries either

[progressoid]

7. Like it!

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Remind her we also had child labor, diptheria and outhouses, too. n/t

[progressoid]

12. Like it!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Write her back and tell her Reagan and Bush's deficits were the largest

tax increases in US history...every time the gov't goes into the red, we get charged more interest on the debt...THAT IS A TAX and since the deficits of both of these admins are larger than every other admin combined, they amount to the largest tax increase on the working class ever.

[progressoid]

13. Yep! too true

[AverageJoe]

9. Easy response

Say this: "We were ten times more prosperous four and a half years ago. And by the way, you're insane."

Well, if you want to keep the peace in your home, you might want to omit that second sentence.

:-)

[progressoid]

14. Actually, she IS insane. But apparently so were just over half of the

voting public

[Mabus]

29. whose votes got counted.

sorry, had to finish the sentence to ease my own mind. I still refuse to believe there are that many voting dumbasses. Especially because I live in a red state. :scared:

[progressoid]

32. "I still refuse to believe there are that many voting dumbasses"

Me too.

Ditto on the red state.

[Mabus]

45. LOL.

All I can say is I married well. Both his parents were dead when I met him. On the other hand, I understand his parents were Dems so I wouldn't have to put up political differences.

[Kipepeo]

46. Me too Mabus

There are a lot of dumbasses...but I refuse to believe they are the majority.

[Kota]

10. We had all these things under Clinton and we had a budget

surplus and at least we had a middle class.It seems to be shrinking.Some of these are also fees and are at the State level.

[tubbacheez]

11. That email is a perfect example of a logical fallacy.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/


See #35 "Questionable Cause"


In other words, there were plenty of changes in the last 100 years other than the emergence of various taxes.




Don't try to overpower her argument. Instead, teach her to think clearly. Much nicer thing to do for people... even RWs.

[tanyev]

15. 1905?

Lots of women died in childbirth back then. Guess the Democrats also get credit for fixing that.

[katinmn]

17. these "hidden" taxes are much more prevalent under the RW agenda

Here in MN where our Republican governor refuses to raise taxes despite record deficits (except for those he can dump back on to local governments in the form of property taxes) we have had an onslaught of new user fees.

He's also going after Native American gambling casinos, although they already pay state taxes. He just wants more.

[KitchenWitch]

19. Yes Pawlenty has dug his heels in on this one

Even with evidence and support for the opposite, he still sticks to the no tax hikes policy. Meanwhile our local communities are having to cut necessary services (snow removal etc) in order to keep their budgets balanced due to the cuts in state aid. GRRR

[katinmn]

21. remember last winter when schools practically shut their heat off?

Course, there were 60 kids to a classroom so the body heat kept them warm.

[KitchenWitch]

23. Yes, so needless

and now Minneapolis is having to close schools, since they do not have the funding to keep all of them open...exponentially expanding class sizes, a hallmark of rethug education policy. :nuke:

[katinmn]

26. well, they are hell-bent on privatizing education, too, and the best

way to get people to turn away from public education is to make them fail.

I don't hear much talk about vouchers anymore, though.

[KitchenWitch]

27. They would have to really put their money where their mouth is

If the school voucher thing passed, it would end up costing them more than if they truly funded *public* education. I would like a voucher for the entire tuition of St Thomas Academy for my son...Yeah that would be less expensive than public education...:evilgrin:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

18. Tell her if she wants to.....

drive a buggy down dirt roads to get to the market...
back to one-room schools w/all grades and one teacher, slates instead of books...
Work her whole life and get nothing in the end...
no safe drinking water and no police or emergency services...

Don't these idjots know that taxes pay for these things?

[TEXASYANKEE]

22. Largest middle class?

We had the largest middle class in the world in 1905? It was my understanding that the US didn't even have a true "middle class" (and certainly not one of any significant size) until the GIs came home from WWII, got educated, and moved away from the farms.

[NV Whino]

24. Every one of those taxes

pay for things such as: road, tunnel and bridge maintenance; animal control; police; fire; etc.

No Taxes. No services. No roads. etc.

[Mabus]

25. Ask her how many of those she pays

then ask her about those court fines.;) Ask her how many account receivables she has outstanding? How many IRS penalties has she paid? Ask her about that inheritance tax and find out how much you're going to get. Ask her how many wells she has sunk in her lifetime. BTW, what state does she live in?

Anyway, I find this list and the same comments on a number of wacko and wacko RW websites like http://www.taxednomore.com/tax.htm and http://www.netscientia.com/tax-taxes.html

[Midlodemocrat]

28. Having just buried my dad, a few months ago

who paid the highest ss tax you could his entire life and retired with approximately $1 million and went through all of it to pay for his health care, in just ten years, mind you, anybody that says Medicare and Medicaid aren't worthy is just blind to the reality. He went on Medicaid when he became destitute and received exemplary medical care until he died, including two operations and a three month stay in the hospital.

Thank God for Medicare and Medicaid. He would have died much sooner without them and missed so much.

[oscar111]

31. Housewives went 2 work, when Reagan allowed bosses to cut job benefits,

wages too.

I might add, when taxes were highest, ninety percent, under Truman, we had prosperity and housewives.

Reaganomic taxcutting has only sparked mass hunger and mass homelessness.

wages now lower than when reaganomics began... adjusted for inflation.

[DrGonzoLives]

30. If by "middle class"

you really mean "huddled, exploited masses," then, yes, that email is 100% true.

[ultraist]

36. In 1900: Women and children worked in sweat shop factories

The average life span was 47.

Is she not aware what the standard of living was like in 1900? Or what our taxes pay for? People do not starve to death in our country anymore. Our child mortality rate has decreased due to medicaid although the poverty rate is increasing under BUSH.

How could she be opposed to inheritance taxes that tax only the wealthy?

Apparently, she needs to review her sixth grade history book to see how far we have come or move to a third world county.

[Skittles]

33. 300 BILLION TO KILL PEOPLE IN IRAQ

ASK HER IF THAT MONEY GROWS ON TREES

[jmowreader]

34. While they're correct none of those taxes existed 100 years ago...

neither did pavement, trucks, cars, widespread use of gasoline, toll roads...

This is like the "13,000 new taxes" Clinton supposedly implemented in Arkansas when he was governor there. Then you go into the taxes and find things like a $1 inprocessing fee for newly-incarcerated state prisoners. Hmmmm...maybe if you'd quit doing that shit, you wouldn't have to worry about that tax?

[faithfulcitizen]

35. here's something "pithy" ... just say:

"i know it's awful (sigh) if only Bush wasn't such a big spender..." ;)

[progressoid]

39. Tee hee. Very good

[two gun sid]

37. 100 years ago

We were not the most prosperous in the world. Children slaved for shit wages. Our life expectancy was crap. The nations wealth was in the hands of 1% of the people. We were under going radical change. The IWW was formed 100 years ago. Debs was getting ready to run on the Socialist ticket for president. There was no OSHA, Social Security, Child Labor Laws, 8 hour days, disease was rampant in our cities.

Christ, I could go on and on. That e-mail is total bullshit.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. In 1905, Britain and Germany were the most prosperous countries

and America was a backwater.

[Dude_CalmDown]

38. Tell her to go fuck herself - n/t

*

[ultraist]

41. The rich keep getting richer while the middle class dwindles

It began in 2000 and continues today. It's trend that is happening on Bush's watch. It's unfortunate that Bush spends, spends, spends the lower and middle classes' money while millionares and billionares rack up more wealth.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/06/26/pf/taxes/wealth/
Rich get richer

IRS says growing wealth for 400 top taxpayers outstripped increases in their tax burdens.
June 26, 2003: 12:43 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The rich got richer in 2000, according to a study by the Internal Revenue Service released Wednesday night.

A separate IRS report released Thursday showed that in 2000 there were nearly 2.8 million "high-income" returns, those with adjusted gross income of at least $200,000. That's a 14.1 percent increase from 1999 (the total number of filed returns increased just 1.8 percent in that time).

The first study shows that in 2000 the wealthiest 400 taxpayers in the United States accumulated nearly $70 billion in adjusted gross income. That marked 1.1 percent of total AGI versus 0.5 percent in 1992.

Members of this elite group had AGI of at least $86.8 million, a big increase from $67.4 billion in 1999. The IRS did not say how much income the No. 1 filer had.

[progressoid]

40. EXCELLENT RESPONSES ALL - glad I donate to DU!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Tell her that Republicans claim that they don't raise taxes but

by that they mean only income taxes. Instead they raise "license fees" and "user fees" and "assessments" or pass expenses for public services down the line to local governments.

[LeftyMom]

44. Fees, my response

While some fees are raised to create revenue (generally by republican governors who refuse to raise taxes, in my experience) others exist in order to direct the costs of an activity to those who create them. For example, I've never paid to register a boat, never bought a hunting or fishing permit, and I've never paid for a septic permit. Why? Because I don't own a boat, I don't hunt or fish and haven't got a septic system. The costs assosciated with those things, such as BUI boat patrols, game wardens and county inspectors ought to be paid by those who create a need for them.

Costs assosciated with road maintainance ought to be paid in proportion to the degree one causes roads to need maintainance. Those who drive the haviest and least efficent vehicles create the most damage to the road and the greatest pollution in the air, because thier vehicles use the most fuel. Those who drive the greatest distances pay more in taxes for road maintainance because they buy more fuel. Those who buy goods shipped great distances pay find that those costs are incoprorated into the price of the goods they consume. Those who own cars and cause wear and tear on the roads pay vehicle registration, those who don't do not. This is as it should be, because it would be an unfair burden to have he student without a car, the family with a car they drive fairly little, the mother who drives her SUV a great distance to work and back and the long haul trucker pay the same amount toward road maintainace and improvement when they do not cause the damage or share in the benefit or improvements equally.

As for traffic fines and court fees, I obey the law. Those who do not should pay thier fair share toward the costs of the legal system. I have used the civil courts in my professional capacity and have never minded the fees involved as the waits were short, the facilities were plesant and the staff did thier jobs well. I got what I paid for.

I avoid IRS penalties by filing my taxes on time. The one time I filed and paid late, I incurred a penalty. I really didn't mind, it was my responsibility to pay on time and I didn't.

I don't recognisze some of those terms. By food tax does she mean the fee resturaunts and grocery stores pay for inspections? If so, I'm glad for that one. Has she ever had food poisoning? If she means sales tax on food, she really ought to move someplace civilized. We have no taxes on groceries in California, although we do have a fee to encourage recycling of some food and beverage containers.

BTW, does you MIL reside in one of those overtaxed red states? The reason I ask is that we don't have half of those taxes where I live (for example we have no local income tax) but I've noticed that my midwestern IL's pay a lot more taxes than I do.