What the Dems should be demanding in exchange for the 87 billion

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

They must make it clear that this admin misled everyone on the costs.
They MUST DEMAND

a) Cheney's energy papers, unfettered and NO NEGOTIATIONS.

B)THEY MUST DEMAND that Bush re-enact Clinton's executive order that made it unlawful to award govt contracts to companies that avoid taxes by moving offshore. They must point out that this is the only way to recoup some of the revenues.

C) They must demand the resignation of Wolfy Rummy and Perle.

[benddem]

1. repeal the Taxes

and the Patriot act. Fire Ashcroft:spank:

[w4rma]

38. I say repeal Bush's tax shifts to the wealthy. Sen. Biden says postpone.

Biden says he thinks the wealthiest Americans would postpone their tax cuts to give Bush the money he wants.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/07/bush.reax/index.html

…
Biden also said he supported Bush's call for spending $87 billion on military operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan next year, although he said the administration should consider deferring tax cuts to pay for it, instead of simply increasing the deficit.

"I think the American people are ready to sacrifice to win, and I think if we went back to the American people and said, 'Look, the very wealthiest among us, we're going to postpone your tax cut a year or two to pay for this,' I think they would embrace it," he said.
…
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/07/bush.reax/index.html

[Solly Mack]

2. Oh, I'll never get my wish list so I'm not going to torture myself

But I like yours...

[wryter2000]

3. And hearings

And hearings into whether or not the White House could have prevented 9/11/01 and the flawed intelligence about WMD and the outting of Ambassador Wilson's wife and flying the Saudis home after 9/11/01.

I want hearings along the lines of Watergate hearings so that the entire country has to listen to the truth!

[leftofthedial]

Plus, 9-11 investigation and kill the tax cuts

complete and unfettered

total end to the tax cuts

and free Barney. That poor dog has suffered too much already.

[Cocoa]

4. apologize for freedom fries

it even rhymmes. :-)

[imhotep]

5. I have to laugh

everytime I read "Dems should do _____."
They wont. ever. }(

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Right...they never did anything...you are certainly an objective observer

[imhotep]

15. are you

so thin skinned, you can't tell when someone agrees with you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. I'm not thin skinned at all...that's why I challenged your obvious bias

which is ANTI DEMOCRATIC on every post I have ever read by you.

It's easy to stand against something...please tell me what you stand for..is it even possible? Can it be accomplished? Have you ever had a complex thought?

[Cocoa]

12. then Miguel Estrada must be hearing cases right now

right? A lot of people here asserted very authoritatively that the dems would NEVER filibuster him, some listed all the dem senators who would vote for him.

[Booberdawg]

6. It's 87 Billion, how about an accounting of how it will be spent???

And an exit plan?? And before Rumsfilled resigns he needs to kiss up with "Old Europe" and the the UN and he and bush need to apologize and ask for their help, turn this operation over to the UN.

Those things are a MUST!!

[David Zephyr]

7. Now This Is A Thread That Merits All DU'er Input.

Thank you NSMA for a very helpful thread here. I will think about this and come back later with my thoughts.

I hope all DU'er will weigh in and that this thread would be sent to EVERY Democrat in the House and Senate.

[bluesoul]

9. Hmmm

How about not granting the 87 billion? :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. And continue to get our troops killed?

Continue to leave Iraqui's in danger? Run the risk of them not having needed services?
Do all or nothing people even bother to think?

I see your :eyes: and raise you a set :eyes:

[Booberdawg]

11. I really don't think that's realistic though. It won't happen.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. What isn't realistic about it? Funds need to come from somewhere..

Rummy, Wolfy and Perle all made statements prior to the war that deliberately misled or SORELY miscalculated the costs...FUZZY MATH FUZZY MATH!!!

This is a chance for the Dems to NOT POLITICIZE BUT CALL FOR ACCOUNTABILITY...so far the accounting is OFF OFF OFF>

Klayman's papers indicate that Iraq's oil fields were on documents. This is their chance.

[Booberdawg]

22. I don't disagree that the funds need to come from somewhere

In fact I don't think they miscalculated, I think they deliberately lied. I would beleive though that it got worse than they expected it would.

I don't think it's realistic that they with get Cheney's energy papers out of this, with or without "unfettered or negotiations".

Nor do I think it's realistic to think they will get Bush to "re-enact Clinton's executive order that made it unlawful to award govt contracts to companies that avoid taxes by moving offshore"

Not that I don't think you make an excellent point - I DO! I just don't think that's a realistic possibility. I don't think the Democrats will even request it. Call me cynical, I just don't believe that will happen.

The resignations of Wolfy, Perle and Rumsfilled - maybe.

Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong.

[wabeewoman]

13. They must GET IT IN WRITING

1. UN BUY IN and active role not just demanding UN participate
2. Repeal tax cuts
3. An bipartisan oversight committee of ALL future actions of this administration
4. Investigations into energy, 9-11, corporate influence, logging, EPA
5. Iraqi company's involvement in rebuilding; voiding all non bid contracts in favor of local contracts by Iraqi's
I could go on but this would be a start....
edit for typo

[rucky]

16. d) UN Leadership in Iraq

Just write that check to the United Nations...i don't trust the $$ would go to Iraq, otherwise.

[TheYellowDog]

17. NO

What I would demand is that people on here stop complaining about the 87 billion dollars when the Congress is considering work on a 400 billion dollar prescription drug bill while we have enormous deficits. And it is completely immoral for you to be trying to deny our troops the money that they need, NSMA. I was against this war too but it is just plain wrong to deny them their equipment and food, in order to make a political point.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. No one is denying them anything. They are saying WE SUPPORT THE TROOPS

and here is how we can offset the costs as far as the offshore accounting is concerned.

They are saying, the people who strapped us with this enormous cost are so blind by their ideology and have already wasted so much money, we have no confidence in their ability to spend these funds wisely. We cannot wage this was with FUZZY MATH like the fuzzy math and fuzzy evidence that got us into it.

We can NO LONGER MISLEAD the American people on the real reasons for this war and we can no longer tolerate an administration that believes they are not accountable to the American people for ANSWERS.

It is NOT IMMORAL TO DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY AND COMPETENCE.

[Nederland]

19. Not likely

The Dems can demand anything they want, but they don't have the votes to get it. And if you think the the Democrats are stupid enough to fillibuster the bill you are dead wrong.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. I don't think they'll get everything but a couple of these

can get repubs on board..they have to go back to their districts and justify the expenses as well.

[bloom]

23. I would love to see all of your demands

esp.:

B) THEY MUST DEMAND that Bush re-enact Clinton's executive order that made it unlawful to award govt contracts to companies that avoid taxes by moving offshore. They must point out that this is the only way to recoup some of the revenues.

and ADD

D) repeal the tax cut and come up with a system for paying our debts and obligations.

[Kenneth ken]

24. Can you

explain how the energy papers are at all relevant to Iraq, in 20 words or less?

Like it or not, we live in a sound bite world. I can agree on B & C, but for general audiences, 'A' could be easily spun as blatant, irrelevant partisanship.

[Booberdawg]

25. They have maps of Iraqi OIL fields on them

Maybe someone else can provide links. There were some threads on this several weeks ago.

[Kenneth ken]

32. I know about this

the question is can it be explained as relevant to the Iraq invasion in sound bite fashion to the masses of people who don't know.

i.e. So? We've known for years Iraq has oil. The pre-war sanctions allowed Iraq to sell oil; the US bought oil from Iraq; why would that source of oil not be included in energy papers?

[Booberdawg]

36. I happen to agree with you.

I have stated in a previous post that I don't think it is realistic to think we would get A or B in exchange for the 87 Billion.

[Kenneth ken]

39. I think B is reasonable

if people were more aware of the fact that companies which do not pay taxes, (due to having moved their corporate headquarters offshore for no reason other than to avoid paying taxes) are allowed to get government contracts, they would see it as unfair.

Whatever other faults this nation has, we do like the idea of playing fair.

C would be tough, given the loyalty ethic of this misadministration. But again, to the people, it would seem fair - those three essentially run the 'war' in Iraq, and should be held accountable for their bad decisions.

[Booberdawg]

53. The only difference we have is in semantics

I think they all A, B, and C, are reasonable, plus the requirements I metioned in post #6 and a few others.

I just must be more cynical or pessimistic than some of some of my comrades here. I just don't think it's realistic to think in a Republican controlled Congress it's even politically feasible for Democrats to succeed with such demands, much less make them.

But ironically, I feel the opposite of you, and feel that option C is the easiest one to accomplish. I see calls from both Republicans and Democrats alike for the resignations Rumsfilled, Perle, and Wolfy. Perle already resigned "sort of" but that was only on paper. he still holds the power of the position.

I would like nothing better than to be proved wrong and served a plate of crow on this. I really think the best we can hope for is just getting back to good business sense in the first place and being given an specific accounting of what this 87 Billion is going to be spent on and an exit plan, WHICH IS WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!! That's just good business. We might get some tax cuts repealed.

What I DO know for sure is that this administration is no longer going to get away with treating Congress oversight responsibilities as a nuisance anymore. They have PROVED beyond any shadow of a doubt they cannot be trusted. They fucked up - BIG TIME.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. Larry Klayman's subpoena'd documents from Cheney contained maps

of Iraqi oil fields. Secretiveness and withholding of important information have resulted in this accounting mess. Let's stop all the fuzziness and return to a government accountable to the people.

[Kenneth ken]

27. 38 words -

and what 'accounting mess' in Iraq are you talking about? Now you just confused everyone even more.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Comeon no nitpicking on the number of words. If it can be stated in ten

seconds or less it can fly...granted it needs a little work..help me :D

[Kenneth ken]

34. hey look I double-posted

ok - I'll concede to the 10 second rule. As far as help; mmm - that is sort of why I raised an objection to the point - I haven't come up with a sound bite reason to support it. I'd like to know everything in those energy papers, but this might not be the right lever.

I'm ok on B & C with sound bite reasons.


I'll give more thought to A.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Fair enough...how about

This war was planned prior to 9/11. Halliburton who paid Cheney 30 million dollars has benefitted immensely. Iraqi oil fields are in some of the subpoena'd documents. Americans deserve to know the full degree to which they have been mislead on the reasons, costs and sacrifices they must make to ensure success.

[Kenneth ken]

37. better

still not great IMO, but close enough that I will accept a good sound bite reason could be fashioned for this demand (even if you aren't the person to shape it.)

Ok, I'm on board for A,B, & C.


:thumbsup:


fat lot o' help I was, eh.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Hey that's OK..I welcome the work out

:D appreciate the challenge..I might come back to this later if the point is not already moot..if I do..I'll pm you the new improved sound bite.

[Kenneth ken]

28. dupe of #27

[MindPilot]

29. Not one thin dime of American taxpayer money should go to Iraq

Fuck bailing out the Bush adminstration on the backs of the working class. Let Dubya figure out how to pay for it his own self.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. That'll happen

[meti57b]

33. in exchange, The Supreme Sacrifice: the bush administration resigns

because Iraq is that important to them .... in exchange for the Democratics vote for the $87B.

[Booberdawg]

41. Just noticed this article

that Democrats demand pretty much what I detailed in post #6

Democrats demand details on Iraq

ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON, Sept. 9 — Democratic senators maintained Tuesday that President Bush’s request for an additional $87 billion for the “war on terror” — most of it intended for use in Iraq — buttresses contentions the administration seriously miscalculated the cost of going to war there.

AT A SENATE Armed Services Committee hearing, the panel’s top Democrat, Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, noted that the administration had rejected estimates before the war that an Iraq conflict could cost $100 billion to $200 billion. The new $87 billion request is in addition to the $79 billion that Congress approved last spring.

Addressing Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Levin said “you told Congress in March that ‘we are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon.’ Talk about rosy scenarios,” Levin said.

<snip>

DETAILS OF IRAQ STRATEGY DEMANDED

Democrats have said they are willing to provide the money sought by Bush, but that they want him to spell out details of his overall Iraq strategy.

For months, many Democrats and some Republicans have complained that the Bush administration has offered few details about how it will rebuild Iraq, how much international support can be expected, how much American taxpayers will have to pay over the years and how long U.S. troops will be based there.

Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Mass., said he will offer an amendment to the Iraq spending bill that would bar money for relief and reconstruction until Bush officially reports to Congress on his Iraq strategy.

“Before the Congress writes a blank check to the administration, we need to know what the broader plan is,” Kennedy said in remarks prepared for the hearing.

Some Republicans have also criticized the administration. Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., said on CBS Tuesday the Bush administration “did a miserable job of planning the post-Saddam Iraq” and “they treated many in the Congress, most of the Congress like a nuisance.”

Democrats are using the money request to argue that the administration didn’t plan adequately for the war’s aftermath, was overly optimistic about Iraqi and international cooperation and foolishly pushed through tax cuts even as the war aggravated a growing deficit.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/963751.asp?0cv=CB10

[Booberdawg]

43. post debate kick

:kick:

[newyawker99]

60. Booberdawg

Per DU copyright rules
please post only 4
paragraphs from the
news source.


Thank you.


NYer99
DU Moderator

[Booberdawg]

62. Awww newyawker99

It was a long article!! I thought I could get away with it!!

My bad. Thanks.:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. night shift kick

[Jack_Sparrow]

44. *drool*

Nice start!

My list:

1. FREEZE the tax cuts, including a restoration of the estate tax to pre-2003 levels, eliminate the Social Security base limit for deductions on high income folks, and ... ok, I am dreaming here... so let's make it good...

2. Matching Funds - $87 Billion for our public schools, national park system, and infrastructure.

3. Cheney must resign upon disclosure of the energy papers. His pacemaker must run on hamster power from now on. :-)

[Booberdawg]

47. I like #3!!!!

I can see I'm gonna like you Jack_Sparrow!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Jack_Sparrow]

48. Thanks Boober!

Or do you prefer Mr. Dawg? :D

[Booberdawg]

54. LOL! Well ....

Boober, or as I call him - Boobie, is my no good spoiled rotten pooch!

I iz a she! :D

You can call me any reasonable facsimile! Or, Linda. :hi:

[Jack_Sparrow]

56. *embarrassed*

Sorry about the gender mix-up!! :o

Hope your puppy forgives me too. :-)

[Booberdawg]

59. Awww ...

We are both pretty forgiving, as long as you're a Democrat.:D

[gristy]

45. Here's my list

1. Eliminate bush's tax cuts. Eliminate them to the extent that tax revenue PER YEAR is increased by $87B. If and when the cost of the Iraq conflict is scaled back AND the deficit is brought under control, we'll talk.

2. Wolfowitz's and Rumsfeld's resignations are demanded, and they are banned from serving our government in any capacity. Oh, and they are not allowed to leave the country. Their presence in a federal courtroom may be required at some point in the future.

3. Control of Iraq is released to the U.N. That is, the U.S. government shall surrender Iraq to the U.N.

4. No-bid contracts in Iraq are cancelled, and the U.N. administers all future contracts, WITH BIDDING.

5. No gov't contracts for any U.S. companies with offshore headquarters for the purpose of evading U.S. taxes.

Thats it. That's my list.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. I really think if they pressed hard they could get some of these

I think that for them NOT to take the perfect opportunity to say to the American people...These people not only miscalcualted, they risked your sons and daughters in their over reach and we want to make sure they cannot do it again with their dreadful foreign policy would, could and SHOULD FLY!

[gristy]

52. I just sent this list in to my fab Senator

Maybe I'll follow up with a phone call tomorrow...

on edit: Good thread, NSMA. Thanks for moderating and encouraging the debate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Thanks for the compliment

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. They have to account for every penny of the

trillions missing from the Pentagon budget, the money that the Pentagon's own auditors can't find.

"Eighty-seven billion?"They should say. "What did you do with the two trillion we gave you before?"

Actually, I know the answer. It went to kickbacks for contractors and lots of bucks for black ops.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Now would be a very good time to bring it up but you KNOW why they won't

Repubs will cry CLINTON DID IT!!!!

[frank frankly]

51. HELL YES!

now you're talking!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. yep

[Ein]

58. Damned Straight!

This Green will support a movement to these ends, if the Democrats bring it to fruition.

Great post.

[SoCalDem]

61. Has anyone (ordinary people) ever even SEEN the budget??

Most families have certain bills that they must pay each month, and aafter those bills are all paid, what is left is discretionary income.. We do not have the "magical ability" to print us up a new batch, or to insist that our neighbor give us some of his, when we run short of money..

It has occurred to me that we take for granted that our "representatives" will vote for only things that are necessary, but we all know how it really works..

It may just be time to have us an old fashioned audit, and MAKE them spend on things that WE want.. They keepp telling us that it's OUR money.. If that is true, why are THEY so freewheeling with it??

Each state should start a grassroots organization to rise up and DEMAND an ACCURATE accounting of just where our money goes..

Can you imagine running a household budget the way the federal government does??

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Ask Ahhnold to open those books...8 billion is a drop in the bucket

compared to 400 billion

[jenm]

64. here's the text of the letter I wrote to my republican congressman

As one of your constituents, I wish to convey to you that President Bush's request for $87 billion should not be granted unless a full and open investigation is made into the failure of the US Air Defense System on the morning of September 11, 2001, including having Mr. Bush and his senior staff testify under oath. In addition, I believe this adminstration should be held accountable to the US citizens concerning VP Cheney's energy papers, requiring full access to all documentation of those hearings. I have serious concerns about the trustworthiness of the current executive branch. Congress needs to provide the checks and balances called for by the US constitution. I trust you consider this responsibility to be primary in your position as congressional representative. Thank you for your consideration.




It was probably too polite, dangit, but I'm still pretty new at this....

[uptohere]

65. regarding the first demand

do you also believe that Dean should rescind the order Dean gave to seal his gubanatorial papers for double the duration of all past Vermont governors ?

The rational given for both acts is the same, to protect the confidentiality of the parties involved in debate and negotiation.

I can accept that people will say things when they assume that the conversations will be held in confidence that they will not say otherwise. If you need to be thinking out of the box then you need to have an environment of trust.

I can also see where there ought to be an open door in matters of public concern.

I can't see supporting both. Given that I have to say "ok" to closing doors if that can facilitate positive change.