People don't get it

[ariellyn]

I went to a party last night. Talk in a small group turned to politics and I perked up. Everyone present voted for Kerry. I thought I'd found kindred spirits. So I asked if they felt ** won in '04 fair and square. Six people agreed he did.

They said he won because people didn't vote and because the right is successfully using the moral values thing to bring others to their side. One insisted it was because of Rove's brilliance.

When I said that moral values was not even an issue before the actual election some insisted it was on the table up to three months before the election and Kerry just didn't step up and counter it.

I asked if it were possible that the MSM was biased and didn't cover Kerry. They don't. I asked if they knew how many people have protested around the world without coverage since 2000 against Bush and used March 19th 2005 as an example of how the MSM ignored hundreds of thousands of protests in favor of Terry Schiavo who had all of 50 protesters. Still no lightbulbs.

Asked if they ever heard of electronic voting and whether it was possible that the election was stolen. Yes they'd heard of it, vaguely. No, they didn't buy that the election was thrown. I mentioned Florida and Ohio and asked how it could be possible that exit polls were exactly opposite the election results if the election were fair.

These people weren't interested in hearing anything other than the brainwashed explanations they've been fed by the MSM that they don't even suspect is biased. They are not the first people I've talked to who don't believe the media is biased.

There's a lot more ignorance out there than I ever imagined. The enemy isn't just in the RW. People are comfortable. None of what BushCo is doing is affecting the majority to an extent that anybody's taking notice. I am saddened to have come face to face with such ignorance.

[fooj]

1. I've run into the same problem...

"Well, don't you think the media would have told us?" My favorite..."How come the news hasn't said anything about this?" Ugh!!!

[feelthebreeze]

11. It is the continuing denial of this Nation...

that we have lost control of our democracy that is the bitterest root to chew. Overwhelmed and beaten down by the oppositional forces in this administration, coupled with a biased if not antagonistic National Media voice, has left people feeling alone and powerless. It seems to happen on a subliminal level. I once thought it was apathy, but now I am viewing it as a people giving up.

I believe that our greatest hurdle leading up to the 2006 retaking of the House is to instill hope, courage, collectivism and a new message of what we all can do for a better outcome. We must offer answers and optimism to effectivly return this Nation to her people.
We spend our time attacking the actions, evil as they are, of this current, relatively small power base; yet by doing so we are strengthening their message of fear and anger. We have taken a small number of people and blown up their abilities. I just read a thread asking if we believe that bushit is the Anti-Christ! How can we hope to battle this power structure if we ourselves are so afraid? How much longer do we allow ourselves to puff up the fur coats of these little nasty weasels and allow our fellow Americans to quake before them?

We know, as I believe the majority of Americans do, that the actions being committed are not in our name. But to battle it singularly, as we at the DU do is just too overwhelming for the majority of Americans. They do not act on a National level. Why? It is because they are afraid, isolated and unskilled as to how to act as citizens in a Democracy. They do not know nor believe the power that is promised to them by our Country.

The majority of us were not raised to believe this Country is an ongoing experiment that requires attention and work from it's citizens. I was surprised when I heard Senator Boxer speak of how, and I paraphrase greatly here, we elect our officials to their positions and expect them to do their job. We are far too busy with our personal responsibilities and labor to have time to do their jobs for them.
That being stated, I personally love the courage and singular grasp of responsibility that this Senator exhibits, and I would proudly give her a seat as the next President of this Country. But to give our power completely to the higher point of the pyramid? Since when have we become to busy to do the required act of citizenry. When did this become the accepted norm for us all? Although I disagree with the idea put forth, nonetheless, She is correct in her assessment of what Americans have come to expect. We have lost our way with what is required of us to continue in this Democracy.

We need to embolden our individuals to action by
1) reexamining the personal responsibility of citizenship to this Democracy.
2) giving credit and power to the individual's involvement.
3) Give an open doorway to hope and answers.

We need to offer a better answer then the fear, thuggery and bitter stench of charnel house that is currently being employed as truth. If we wish to end this National denial we need to do more than point our fingers and say "See, see the evil and unmarked fascism that is creeping in and taking over?" As George Burns said "Critics are eunuchs at an orgy". It is clear to me that no one wishes to see this because they secretly know it already. Let's unmask these ghouls for the petty small minded children that they are and once again reroute this collective back to it's best course of action: Dream and then actualize. All great movements in this country began with a belief that it was better and right and that together we can make it happen.
We can end this denial.

[ariellyn]

12. I'm not sure if they are in denial or ignorant...to deny you have to

first acknowledge something. A lot of people have no clue that there's a problem with our democracy.

[Griffy]

43. its denial.. the facts are presented.. but it means accepting the crisis..

as real.. and in need of acts of courage to defeat. It is the fear of what you are telling them means to them... its scary, but we must help our friends and family through the fear and into the anger and action phase! I suggest you ask them how they know bush won.. get them to question the sources of their information.. point them to AAR and progressive talk.. point them to websites like www.truthout.com or www.democraticunderground.com or www.rawstory.com or.. or .. or.. take your pick.. or have a list on small cards, like I do.. with places to go for more information.

Also.. its comforting to know that once people see whats happening, they never go back.. so we are always growing in numbers... day by day, I listened to all the thank you calls to AAR last week on there 1 year birthday.. WE (progressive, liberal, reality based) are strong... and grOWING!

[harris8]

51. That's why I have DU and Truthout.org bumperstickers on my car

Instead of "in your face" bumperstickers about how I really feel about *, the BFEE, the GOP, etc., I proudly have my DemocraticUnderground.com and homemade truthout.org (truthout.com forwards to same address) bumperstickers on my car.

The way I look at it, some people might actually jot down the website address and check it out when they get home from work. A lot more information is presented on these excellent websites than you can ever fit on a bumpersticker... which reminds me, I need to make an AAR bumpersticker, and list the 3 (I think that's all) stations so far in Texas (Austin - KOKE 1600 AM, Corpus Christi - KCCT 1150 AM, Dallas - KXEB 910 AM).

[fooj]

14. "Dream and then actualize"...

Great screen name- Welcome to DU!

Peace!:hi:

[feelthebreeze]

52. Thank you fooj, great to be here

[globalvillage]

2. Sheep. So many sheep.

[Tesha]

35. The battle was lost December 12th, 2000.

The battle was lost December 12th, 2000, when the masses didn't rise
up and storm the Supreme Court with pitchforks after Bush v Gore.

The Republicans called the Democrats' bluff, and the Democrats blinked.
It was then that they knew they had us, and could get away with *ANY-
THING*! And so they have.

Tesha

[Griffy]

44. Great point.. but the war is just heating up! we are organizing ...

the awareness is growing.. it will take time, but Gore announced the lauch of an indepentant TV channel.. AAR celebrates 1 year with record numbers and millions of listeners. The MSM is now being exposed as weak by bloggers anbd new media seizing the huge market for the truth. Im ready to watch and listen.. I crave to hear the truth braodcast, and I'm supporting companies that do and denouncing those that support this cabal.

This is a huge point in the time line.... it was the legalization of fraud in our election system.. and it is only now that many of us see the pattern (sorry.. I wish I had seen it sooner too).. more see this everyday. Many of us make our friends and family question what they were told.. even if they say no no.. he won... how many other people saying bush cheated will it take... the bumper sticker on my truck says "bush cheated". Just keep pounding the message.. and if they wont listen by '06.. they will cheat.. and we will have even more proof.

If a lie repeated over and over becomes the accepted as true... what happens if the truth is spoken over and over?!

:think:

[Tesha]

45. We can talk among ourselves until we're blue in the screen, but...

> Great point.. but the war is just heating up! we are organizing ...
> the awareness is growing.

It no longer matters; the war was lost on that day when not one shot
(verbal or otherwise) was fired against the coup.

The left no longer has any hold on any of the levers of power,
it has no reliable means of getting its message out, the corporations
have no use for anyone who's powerless, and it will be a long, long
time before the left overcomes this to gain any power again.


> If a lie repeated over and over becomes the accepted as true...
> what happens if the truth is spoken over and over?!

If it's the left speaking the truth, nothing. And this has been proven
over and over again for at least the last six years.

Tesha

[Griffy]

48. OH no.. 6 years.. this is alot bigger than that.. and we DO have power!

We have finacial power 1st off.. we are most of the consumers, CA alone is a huge economic factor in this country. Look at what is happening, we are not just talking to each other here.. but new outlets are opening all the time, the market for the truth is huge and its only a matter of time. That day, were the coup seized power was the start.. not the end, for the backlash from this will be the furthering of freedoms and social justice. Or the start of the fourth reich, but I wont live to see that, cause they will have shot me by then. I, however, believe that most of America will come to see what has happened and will denounce bush and his lies... it will just take time, many stood by Nixon all the way.. to this day, but they are the minority. This crook will be unmasked! It is the only way for this nation to heal and move forward!

[acmejack]

3. Brainwashed by Faux

and Law & Order clones/reruns. Most of them think the you are deranged, confused, or some combination thereof. You're right, they are comfortable for the moment. >$3.00/gallon fuel will get them thinking (I hope).

[Morose]

46. the people who really can't pay 3 bucks a gallon

are already pushed out on the bottem at $2.15 and it hasn't made them wake up.

On the other hand, the overcompensating Hummer drivers aren't going to stop even if gas is $5 a gallon.

We've lost something fundamental in our WILL for democracy and freedom. We have no Civil Rights Movement.....because we're all the apathetic and oppressed minority now.

Go back and watch NETWORK. We're all happy to chant that we're MAD AS HELL. But we're definately going to keep taking it.

yes, I'm feeling pessimistic.

[BlueJazz]

4. I know that a part of me is one Sick-son-of-a-bitch cause...

I know that as repulsive as it is (also) a tiny part of me will experience joy when these "head in the sand" people finally come to the realization that their whole country is collapsing around them because they simply were not paying attention.

[ariellyn]

5. I know exactly how you feel. n/t

[BlueJazz]

6. Welcome to the SOB club! LOL

:)

[hootinholler]

26. Well then you can gather some small joy from me.

It was the election that awakened me, got my attention. My head wasn't really in the sand. I was getting my news from the networks trying to pay my mortgage and feed my kids through 2 bouts of unemployment, hearing at every turn your a software engineer, you shouldn't have trouble finding work.

There are unseen forces at work here in the world. I am of the view that political parties are manipulated by those wielding these forces. The puppet masters are becomming more bold as influence is consolidated.

This manipulation yields the surface view observed by most in America that all politicians are dirty and there's little the individual can do. While that is true as long as the individual is acting individually, history shows us that when we band together and act with coordination, mountains can be moved. Unfortunately, I fear it will take a large rude awakening to get enough of the public aroused to have critical mass.

-Hoot

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Underscores the fact that *media* is where the battle has to...

ultimately be fought.

The RW was smart to start pressuring the MSM way back when. Agnew didn't exactly discover it ( the Goldwaterites began the whining far as I remember; don't recall the McCarthy era but I don't think there was RW pressure designed to specifically influence coverage; they really didn't have to in those days) but was the first to exploit it ( as a figurehead; folks like Saffire and Buchanan were pulling his strings) as a political issue.

This drumbeat, obviously, has completely transformed the way "news" is reported. The left has to do the same; i.e. a "drumbeat". Individual writers and pundits have reported the new RW bias well ( Alterman, Conason, others) but progressive politicians have not, to my knowledge, addressed it openly. It's not resonating as a result.

They are going to HAVE to.

[ariellyn]

8. You are right. I'm not sure which issue is more important--vote

fraud or the MSM. I really think vote fraud is most important because it will take legislation to change the MSM. But how do you address vote fraud without the MSM? :shrug: I just heard on a Randi Rhodes rerun today that the Republican majority voted down all bills to use voter verified paper ballots. Getting a grasp on either issue is pretty hopeless.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. Well , none of this is easy. I think the way to the MSM's.....

heart is thru its wallet. (In another era you could legislate; no more)
Organized economic pressure; consumer boycotts and threats of same. All of this is done on a small scale at various websites, but not enough people are involved. Nonetheless, the idea has potential.

Secondly, getting prominent, especially *elected*, progressives to speak to the issue PUBLICLY could help significantly. It's hard, even for the present day media, to ignore the issue at that point.

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Something else I wonder

If people do know about the voting fraud and everything going on with that and they do pressure their senators and congressmen would they do anything about it? We all know they're just controlled (the republicans) by Rove and Cheney. And the dino's don't help either. Even if people did know what could we do?

[ariellyn]

10. Kick for more feedback...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

13. Based on the fact that the economy is headed down, the people will...

...will be a LOT less comfortable pretty soon.

When things begin to affect them personally, that's when they'll start looking for answers.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Even if they do

a lot of the people who vote republican STILL will vote republican and won't ever think of voting for a democrat. Some people would rather die then do that. So what then?

[fooj]

15. Kick and recommend!

Peace.

[Cleita]

16. I had the exact conversation with a family member.

"But the media would tell us."

She refused to believe me a few months ago, but is starting to come around. She was mad at me one day because she couldn't get through to me on the phone at seven in the morning.

She said, "Are you on the internet that early?"

I said, "Of course. This is were I get my news."

Then I named off a lot of my sources. I made a point of being somewhat mainstream. I told her that the TV isn't giving out hard news anymore. That's why you are getting all these surprises suddenly sprung on you and you wonder when THAT happened.

I think she is beginning to see the light. I actually saw a newspaper in her house the other day.

[MadHound]

23. Good for you, keep working on her

You will reach a point of critical mass where she will desire the truth enough to start going out and searching for it on her own. And then you will have won that battle, and can go on to the next person.

Good for you, keep up the good work.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. Awful

Since these people are all Kerry votes you should try to get "OutFoxed" to show them. After I saw that movie I just stopped watching MSM all together. Only thing I watch is the Daily show. I rely on outside news outlets like BBC to tell me about what's going on here and reporters like Greg Palast. You should also show them the "Bush Family Fortunes" movie. I don't know how it'd help with your friends but they might be into it. Or you can use "Unpredicited" the movie about 2000.

[ConsAreLiars]

20. Good sources. Another is

"Orwell rolls in his grave." Watched it last night and it is good an explanation of how things work regarding the media as I have seen. Get it here and give BuzzFlash a boost at the same time: http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/04/06/int04031.html

[renaissanceguy]

32. Same here. OutFoxed made me look at the language

news sources used, and then from there I could judge their authenticity.

I'm starting to stop watching MSNBC altogether, as they are heading in the FAUX direction.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[ariellyn]

39. These are people I probably won't see again anytime soon...

but I do have a friend who is very interested in these issues and who still believes people like Chris Matthews are credible. She watches Fox too. I think I'll get Outfoxed for her. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Vektor]

21. I see it all the time...

they're clueless. The question is, how do we reach the masses?

[MadHound]

22. So, what did you do about it?

Did you give out the titles of books to read? Magazines to puruse? Overseas newspapers that are publishing the news that nobody dares to publish here? Facts and figures, complete with sources for these people to check?

It is all fine and good to bitch about the brainwashing job that has been done on Americans, to whine and moan about how ignorant our society is, but if you're not helping to counteract the effects of these societal scurges, you are no better than anybody else. You're wrong in your contention that Americans aren't interested in the truth, they are, there is always an inherent thirst for truth in our country. But you have to approach these people gently, subtly, feed them a little truth at a time so that their hunger for the truth quickly becomes a ravenous need, tipping these people over to the point where they stop relying on you for the truth, and start going out and finding it for themselves.

Rather than being self righteous and run to go post in a like minded forumn, you will serve the good better by boning up on your facts, memorizing your sources, learning how to put together the quick, credible three minute arguement that imparts knowledge and the implants the seeds of doubt.

WE all know how hard it is for the truth to get through the MSM, that is why it is imperative that we ALL become walking encycolpedias of the truth, with the talent and finesse to gently insert this truth into the psyche of every person we speak with. The old saying about the truth setting you free isn't just a quaint bon mot to be dropped at your local peace rally. It is a fundemental concept of our society, and should be the driving force behind every contact with our brainwashed fellow citizens. Otherwise, the forces of corporate hemogeny win, and we all wind up being corporate serfs.

So rather than bitching and moaning about the ignorance of Americans, make it your mission to enlighten them. If they're going on and on about Schiavo and the Pope, jokingly do a schpiel about "In other news, 1 American was killed and fifty were wounded on an attack on Abu Graib this weekend" or some other quick one liner that will provoke discussion. Otherwise, you're just pissing into the wind. It is up to US to resolve this situation, and it looks like we're going to have to do it one person at a time. Roll up your sleeves and get to work.

[ariellyn]

40. I believe my post shows that I presented several issues.

I did so inquisitively, to get people thinking, and I followed up with facts.

This WAS a party--and the conversation quickly turned to other things. I had my time, and I made the best of it. You can't beat people over the head with this stuff.

The whole point of my post is that even our own are not on board.

Your suggestions about rolling up my sleeves are good. I need to be even more prepared. If you've done the type of homework that you're recommending, by all means share it here for everyone's benefit.

[MadHound]

42. Well, I always hit with quick hard facts to back a point up.

As far as the MSM goes, ask them if they knew that 90% of the media in this country, television, newspaper, radio, movies, books, etc were controlled by only five companies. Of these five companies, four have direct ties to the military industrial complex, and the fifth is indirectly tied to it. Then I would ask them if they honestly think that a media corporation so deeply involved in the military industrial complex would come out against the war? You should also read Eric Alterman's book "What Liberal Media" to put some more facts at your fingertips.

You don't have to beat them over the head, but if you get a good conversation going, people will naturally be interested in hearing the truth. Lay out before them what your case is in concise terms, and recognizable references. Hit them with some quick facts, go on to something else, and then come back and hit them again.

And stick around here and read the posts on various topics. I've learned a lot hear just from reading, and then I also go visit my local alternative bookstore for more research. Yes, I've been accused of making everything political by some other people at work, but interestingly enough, these people are also former Republicans that voted for Kerry after I got through with them. I'm around here, and you'll see some of my stuff, but also look at other's research too, we've got some fantastic facts people on this board.

[dbt]

24. "if it's important, it will be on the News."

There's the underlying--and quite fatal--logical fallacy that's keeping Murkins complacent. It was once a safe assumption, just as it was once safe to rally behind the President in times of national emergency.

[Tace]

25. "Night Of The Living Dead" It's Like A Horror Movie With Most People

zombies. Check out World News Trust, it's an independent progressive news media project involving a group of concerned DU'ers. Cheers

[ariellyn]

41. Definitely like a sci-fi movie...

We are officially in the Twilight Zone. It's like you KNOW doom is imminent and you try to warn everybody and they just ignore you.

[BiggJawn]

27. Take away their Cable Teeee-Veeee and they'll wake up.

Bread and Circuses...
Give 'em Double Thickburgers and scantily clad buff girls sweating by torchlight at the "Tribal Council" and they won't question anything else.

Rove knows this. He may not be brilliant, but he doesn't make the mistake of thinking the Murkan Sheeple are as noble as some of us think they are.

[mopinko]

28. this is why

i cut off my family. not that they are all wingnuts. there are only a couple. but the dems are just like this. "c'mon, you think he stole 3 million votes? c'mon, mo. can i have some of whatever you are smoking?"

[Henny Penny]

29. TV coverage of the vote.....

Over here we got lots of footage of reporters outside polling stations, queuing in the rain and being interviewed by the reporters. They were saying things like "we've been here for five or six hours!!!" and "a lot of our friends have left 'cos they had to go to work/ pick up their kids..." etc.

Did you not get that???

We thought it was unbelievable, in a first world country that this was happening. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[hootinholler]

30. Sadly, no we did not get that in the US media.

It got a very brief mention of some scattered problems in ohio. It was well downplayed. In part that is what got my attention.

-Hoot

[orpupilofnature57]

31. Rove via shrub, has piped in to the lowest of tools. Fear, prejudice&greed

The ? % that felt the need to take the safer tried and true path were duped, again

[Virginian]

33. It isn't all Rove

Shrub was also a student of Lee Atwater. They both know how to run the dirty tricks. Each of them is dangerous on his own, and when they put their heads together, there is real evil.

[spooky3]

34. Rent "The Insider" for a great example of how the media is

controlled.

If CBS, which prided itself on its journalistic integrity and leadership in the past, caved to moneyed interests when it was clearly wrong to do so, then how many more outlets with behave with little integrity on less clear issues?

[CrispyQ]

36. I have seen the same thing.

People are too comfortable. I live in a progressive & affluent pocket & post election, people went from pumped up to pooped, almost overnight. It is a symptom of being too comfortable. "We have to fight for our democracy?"

These same people, who got me off my ass last year, no longer follow politics or current events. People who a year ago were fired up to "get this group of thugs out of the White House" have nary a blip on their radar about BBV. I honestly believe that it is because bushco's policies have not caused them enough personal pain.

[Ironpost]

37. Had similar experience yesterday

A friend who says she is a democrat told me she couldn't listen to any news from foreign sources, That she couldn't imagine listening, reading or believing anything other than MSM. Why she said would you believe any other press other than ours... She don't get it.

[rockymountaindem]

38. And Kerry was supposed to burst out screaming "It's Stolen!!!"

the next day with no evidence and to a country where even most of his own supporters don't believe it could be stolen? Dream on.

[theboss]

47. I think Bush won too...so I guess I'm a sheep

I don't like the voting systems currently in place in this country, but nothing has convinced me that there was any massive rigging this time around.

[Griffy]

49. What makes you believe bush won?.. or is it faith? plz tell me?

I have yet to hear a good answer as to why people believe bush won! I mean, what.. CNN said so? Diebold counted the votes and you want to make those numbers the baseline and leave it to others to disprove it? You need proof of the fraud?.. I need proof of the offical numbers! If you say "offical" tell me who.. did you believe the MSM?.. what..? please tell me why you think bush won!?!

[tblue37]

50. My otherwise intelligent and informed 25-year-old

Dem-voting son also insists that I am succumbing to conspiracy theories because I think the election was stolen.

Too many people cannot bear to think that it has gone as far as it has. They think the world can't possibly work that way.