Bush, Hitler, Stalin, and the GOP...Is history repeating itself?

[goodboy]

Until he discovered politics, Hitler failed at just about everything he had ever undertaken,(Sound like someone we know?) and no one expected him to rise to power. However, Hitler found a simple way to the top: Just tell discontented people what they want to hear and make promises you have no intention of keeping. He found that in the world of propaganda and power plays, a gift of gab and bullish determination could replace sound principles and honesty.

In his first radio speech after becoming Chancellor on January 30, 1933, Hitler---a fervent Christian---invoked God's blessing on the German government and pledged to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation,(Uniter, not divider)

but die Führer (the Leader) had no intention of being a uniter. His Nazi Party's battle cry throughout the campaign was

Down with the liberals!

Hitler made public dissent all but impossible at first,(hmm?) and later made it illegal. Whenever groups tried to voice a protest during a public speech, he would have storm troopers clear the dissenters from the hall and also made sure that the media did not give provide the public with any coverage of dissenters or public protests because it was encouraging of destructive elements. (Free Speech Zones, Ann Coulter's recent advocation of violence against dissenters in her 'lecture')

***used with permission***
More, much more, here:
http://www.thepubliccause.net/Articles/BushHitlerStalinGOP.html

[goodboy]

1. The Pukes' new campaign to destroy our courts inspired this post.

Didn't Hitler take control of parliament in the 30's in much the same way the GOP is working now?>

[Biology]

4. family values

And one of the buzz phrases was "family values"

[goodboy]

6. "activist judges" (nt)

[rawtribe]

2. ...

[goodboy]

3. That picture speaks a thousand words...(nt)

[Lone Pawn]

20. Actually, just four.

[goodboy]

28. No three, sir,...right three! (nt)

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rapcw]

12. Is that the picture from the protest in Germany that had to be taken down?

Thanks for sharing it.

[rawtribe]

24. Yes...n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

14. This was in Germany during Bush's visit there.

[Pachamama]

43. It's hard for me to read the sign above, but its either Dutch or Danish

This might have been in Belgium?

In any event its funny as...shit?

In German it would read "Gleicher Scheisse....andere Arschloch"

[Dangerman]

62. Permission to use yor image...

Mind if I use the pic as my new sig?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

10. .

[wildmanj]

8. is history repeating itself

ITS SAD BUT TRUE

[Swamp Rat]

9. Yes

[Just Me]

11. The multinational corporacrats we have now, are MUCH worse!!!

They have a hellavu lot more power to impose their will. They also seek to bring Americans into the fold of global economic slavery. They are rolling back the clock to pre-USA days. Evil fucks!

[nolabels]

42. I would say that was the case, Hitler's Nazi Germany were smaller fry

I would also say this was inevitable. The multinational Corporations and businessmen who first backed Hitler were a maverick group who got gulped up by Hitlers political machine.

The vast majority of the corporatist of today are into bushco full tilt. They are joined at the hip and will mostly always require each other till the idea of a corporation as an entity is gone. It has never been possible to prosecute an idea or notion.

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853

[Just Me]

59. This time the enemy to be destroyed is more ambiguous,....

,...hence, the corporate fascists' power-mongering is far more successful. They learned from history how to more effectively oppress. Meanwhile, we still have to work our butts off trying to teach Americans about what the hell is happening.

Our corporate fascists cannot be called "Nazis" since such is clearly associated with targeting the Jews as the enemy. However, the corporatocracy is certainly fascist making anyone who opposes its destructive wheels of profiteering an "enemy": liberals, atheists, intellectuals, feminists, protestors, pacifists, etc.

[nolabels]

67. I have no problem calling them "Nazi's"

But any nomenclature is of little use unless it can have meaning attached to it. We don't call them Hitler lovers or Jew killers. It was also way more than just about Jews (the Nazi's scapegoat).

The wannabe monsters have learned from the past history of their predecessors. That was never never in doubt. The thing is that it did not start yesterday.

Here is an article that might shine a light or two.

The Hidden Origins of Nazism
(snip)
Before being recognized as a political movement, the ill-aimed system of social intolerance now known as Nazism was apparent in various fringe-Masonic philosophies of Europe. Extreme arguments to form a militant racist Order were voiced in the esoteric doctrines of astrology, Theosophy, and Illuminati occultism which became popular in Germany during the early 1920s.


One man who had a virtual monopoly in syndicated fortune-telling was Hugo Vollrath, who also used the pseudonyms of Walter Heilmann and Dr. Johannes Walter. He presented himself as the secretary of a fictitious Rosicrucian secret society in Germany and collected subscriptions from many gullible people who received impressive diplomas. Vollrath, who assumed the arrogant title of Gnostic Bishop, was accustomed to wearing a fez at his office. "It keeps my aura in place," he once remarked. Another astrology figure and close friend of Vollrath was Abdul Bahai (no apparent connection to the Persian Bahai sect) who claimed to be the Metropolitan and head of a Gnostic Church based in Haifa
(snip)
http://www.blackraiser.com/nazorigM.htm#

Use a grain of salt reading that of course, but it could bring up some more questions

[goodboy]

81. The pukes have given us a treasure trove of things we can use to associate

them with fascism. After all, complete control of govt, and the media is what helped hitler get power. OUR government is producing propaganda, torturing people, imprisoning people without charge...

We are a fascist nation. We should call it like we see it.

[nolabels]

86. There weakness and from where they draw the strength of their cult.......

is in there cultural and social intolerance. Exposing them and this trait is how they get defeated. They know that and we know that.

The dark force they and other groups aligned with them represent a Fascist Empire(in my opinion) that is under the radar just like 'Just Me' stated and purposely operate on the sly in what ever way they can. Most of the elected people in congress are of little use and or have been compromised too seriously to change much. We the citizens must do it for ourselves this time. Though each of us may see a slightly different angle on it, mostly we can all agree there is something very wrong, underhanded etc. going on here (once who ever it is gets a few real glimpses of it of course)

Informing others what we see, feel or sense about what is going on is how we can inform others and keep everybody else up to date on what the nasties might be doing. Some may be on or off the wall, but taking the pieces of information we can all collaborate could be worth while. So I am keeping my ears to ground

[goodboy]

88. I think just about anyone can find an item or issue to pound the pukes

with, and by proxy, draw comparisons to hitler, and fascism.

The time for mincing words is over.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. The Repukes get upset at the comparisons because the parallels are

so accurate. Quotes from "Mein Kampf" could be mistaken for Shrub's speeches. There are many parallels, not the least of which is the infamous

GEORGE BUSH AND THE 14 POINTS OF FASCISM:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

[goodboy]

16. I read that...everyone on DU should read that. (nt)

[Just Me]

19. Yup!!! You'd think Goebbels was THEEE model for neoCON tyranny.

It sure does appear that way.

[goodboy]

33. Geobbles, and Rove...clones?

[unhappycamper]

38. excellent site. they have some really great poster art

some of the posters that caught my eye:

[hollowdweller]

15. No Joke - I am concerned we are really going that way.

And just like with Hitler, Europe has no balls to counter us. There are some really disturbing political trends in the country now that I have never seen before. Not just debating the issues but trying to punish people who speak out, and actually morally demonize the opposition. Plus people are so asleep in this country. They don't wake up unless something is done to THEM, never mind what is happening to anyone else in the world.

[goodboy]

17. Me too Hollow...me too.

[hatrack]

18. I see much the same, and it really hit home last night

I went to see "Downfall", the German movie about Hitler's final days and the fall of Berlin, and at the risk of being shouted down as alarmist, it seemed weirdly appropriate.

First of all, it's a brilliant, horrifying, riveting movie - see it before it's swept away forever from your nearest multiplex by "Sahara" or some other pile of Hollywood cat logs in the next week or so.

Beyond that, there were two points that really stuck with me. First was the absolute blind bullshit brainwashed faith in "The Leader" with which all the "good Germans" in 1945 washed away their fears and doubts and any of those nagging remnants of reality. I see more and more of the same blind, uncritical regurgitated spew from more and more people who support Bush. They don't think, they don't ask, they just conform and obey and repeat the same pre-chewed crap. When the economy goes in the shitter, they'll be lining up for the Magic Answer Man (whoever that turns out to be) just as they did in 1932 over yonder.

Second, Goebbels makes a truly chilling statement about halfway through the movie. "The German people chose this. They gave us a mandate, and now they'll have to cut their pretty little throats." Paraphrased, but pretty close. The movie was shot and wrapped well before Bush could spew his crap about "mandates", so I found that eerily appropriate.

[goodboy]

27. Where can I see that movie? (nt)

[hatrack]

29. One good movie site I can recommend - Rotten Tomatoes

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/

They have a search function - just plug in your zip code, and they'll give you the nearest theater for any movie.

Good luck!

[goodboy]

32. bookmarked...thank you.

[Helga Scow Stern]

41. That movie really hit home with me too when I saw it a few weeks ago

I had even appropriated that line you paraphrased for my signature line.

[gordianot]

22. They will have a damn hard time with Concentration Camps. n/t

[acmejack]

48. Think FEMA...

They have places all ready and waiting for us.

[LoganW]

44. Ummm they don't?

Do you think the EU was formed just for the hell of it?

[goodboy]

52. on that subject, some of my fundie relatives claim the EU is one of the

signs of the apocolypse.

[mmonk]

21. acceptance or indifference to violence

on the part of the public at large always seems to be a theme.

[goodboy]

34. Hmm...you mean like violence against..."activist judges" even if they're

right-wingers like Greer?

[BrklynLiberal]

23. Why does this thread have only 2 votes for greatest?

[goodboy]

26. Thanks BL...I wish everyone would read this. Know your enemy, and learn

how to vanquish him.

[TankLV]

30. Not any more - I should have made it 3.

Another thing they didn't mention.

My partner and I were out at a grocery store, and I made some disparaging comment on the bunkerboy and the repukes, as I always do, somewhat loudly - and he shushed me - he was afraid of what "others" might hear.

The fear of saying what you think, for fear of retribution of some sort, should be a 15th sign.

How many people here right now have second thoughts about saying something out loud or self-censor themselves in public?

I constantly debate and often defer to wear my "fuck bush" pin or some of the other ones.

THIS is what our once great country has become!

[goodboy]

31. I know what you mean, but I'm not afraid to say anything to anyone.

Once a puke left a note on my car because he thought my bumper stickers were "discusting" (sic) And if I didn't like it here I should leave.

Fascism: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. )

[tavalon]

45. Yeah

I get notes on my car too.

[tavalon]

46. Yeah

I get notes on my car too.

[understandinglife]

25. ....HAS repeated itself. No question about it. (nt)

www.missionnotaccomplished.us (begin creating a different America; one that reflects both knowledge of history and an earnest attempt not to repeat the well documented evils of the past)

[goodboy]

35. so what are we gonna do about it? I hope it doesn't take the american

people as long as it took the german people.

[understandinglife]

36. Start with www.missionnotaccomplished.us on May 2, 2005...

...and build from there.

Peace.

[Discord]

37. probably longer.

[BeFree]

39. Good question, goodboy

Read on DU some time ago about some skinheads going to see a campaign speech by a neo-nazi. Well, sir, they raised quite a ruckus therby painting the politician with an undeniably nazi colored paint.

All quite intended, mind you. Maybe some of yall could show up at our political nazi campaign speeches? Like the next time b**h comes to a town near you?

In the meantime, as a Liberal, I intend to define my Liberalism as being anti-nazi, every chance I get.

[goodboy]

84. I confront those fascists every chance I get, and I call them fascists

and you should too!

[Horse with no Name]

40. I have been thinking for the last several months

That "like-minded" people like ourselves should gather to one section of the country. I feel that our country is coming to that and I absolutely hate it.
It sounds ridiculous and conspiratorial, but I know that I won't talk about * on a cordless or a cell phone and I tell my kids not to say anything in public--just jokingly even.
(On a good note--my youngest daughter is #3 in her junior class and has decided to major in political science when she goes to college.You can guess which party she stands for in a veryyyyy red town,lol:) )

[tavalon]

47. I don't think that would be a good idea

If we all gather together, it will make it too easy to round us up.

[goodboy]

51. I understand what you're saying, but

the country is already divided. We need the support of all the american people to defeat the fascism in this country.

[DivinBreuvage]

49. Hitler was NOT a fervent Christian

and the assertion that he was, suggests that the author of the article probably isn't informed enough about Hitler and Nazism to be making comparisons of this sort; though of course parallels can always be drawn between any two authoritarian governments. He could have pointed out the frightening parallels between Bush and Idi Amin, Louis XIV, or Vlad the Impaler, but he went for Hitler for the same reason everyone here on DU does: because Hitler is sexy.

In fact Hitler despised Christianity, and the Nazis, like the Bolsheviks and the Jacobins before them, sought to weaken the influence of the church. Dictatorships that demand absolute loyalty to the state do not allow their citizens to channel their allegiance toward a third party belief system. The problem the Nazis had is that by the time they felt strong enough to move against the churches

It is true that Hitler payed lip service to Christianity for the sake of his audience, but this should not be interpreted as reflecting his genuine beliefs, any more the phrase "Democratic People's Republic" means that North Korea is democratic.

[goodboy]

53. would you agree he was obsessed with Christianity? (nt)

[DivinBreuvage]

60. No, I wouldn't agree with that at all

Stonewall Jackson and John Brown are examples of men who were obsessed with religion. Hitler's obsessions were race, conquest, and possibly disease, as is evident from his speeches, writings, and private conversation.

[goodboy]

66. why did he spend time collecting religious paraphernalia and such?

Why did he search high and low for valuable Christian Artifacts?

Why did he claim to be a Catholic?

[DivinBreuvage]

73. What, like his expedition to Egypt to locate the Ark of the Covenant?

That was a movie, make-believe. I've read a number of biographies on Adolf Hitler -- I mean by professional historians, not by quacks -- and none of them mention Hitler's interest in searching high and low for valuable Christian artifacts. Perhaps you, or your sources, are confusing Hitler with Himmler, who was indeed interested in the occult, or with Göring, who was infamous for plundering art treasures; or perhaps they are making things up. I think one could argue that more fairy tales have been concocted about Adolf Hitler than any other historical figure except Jesus and, possibly, Abraham Lincoln. It is on record that Hitler openly scoffed at Himmler's occultist pretensions.

As for why he claimed to be a Catholic, that's easy enough to explain given the fact that he began his political career in Bavaria. If he had begun it in Prussia he might have claimed to be a Protestant, except that such a declaration might have seemed suspect given his Austrian origins. In short, he did it for the same reason American candidates talk about their faith or show their families in their television ads: to send the message that they're "just folks".

And in any event, how do either of these things qualify in your mind as an obsession with religion? I don't think you make your case at all.

[goodboy]

77. You're saying that Hitler didn't collect religious paraphernalia?

[DivinBreuvage]

78. Did he?

Post your facts and prove me wrong. On edit, I'm especially interested to learn how he was obsessed with it.

[goodboy]

80. More on Hitler's religious ideas:

The Psychopathic God, Adolf Hitler

Hitler as Religious Leader

Since Hitler saw himself as a Messiah with a divine mission to save Germany from the incarnate evil of "International Jewry," it is not surprising that he likened himself to Jesus. On one occasion during the 1920s, as he lashed about him with the whip he habitually carried, he said that "in driving out the Jews, I remind myself of Jesus in the temple." At another time he said, "Just like Christ, I have a duty to my own people...."

At a Christmas celebration in 1926 he thought it appropriate to compare his own historical importance favorably with that of Jesus. Christ had changed the dating of history; so would Hitler, for his final victory over the Jews would mark the beginning of a new age in the history of the world. "What Christ began," he observed, he, Hitler, "would complete." And in a speech on 10 February 1933 he parodied the Lord's Prayer in promising that under him a new kingdom would come on earth, and that his would be "the power and the glory, Amen." He added that if he did not fulfill his mission, "you should then crucify me."

http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/hitler.htm?FACTNet

[DivinBreuvage]

87. I am still waiting for you to back up your claim

that he had a penchant for collecting religious relics.

I've read The Psychopathic God. It's a very interesting and entertaining book, not a biography but a psychological portrait, though the Freudian lens through which the author views Hitler has, I understand, since been discredited (I believe the book was published in the early 1970s).

After WWI many Germans, Hitler among them, yearned for an authoritarian figure who would undo the shame of defeat and restore Germany to greatness. Does it strike you as particularly odd, given Germany's cultural heritage, that Hitler and others would sometimes clothe that idea in Messianic imagery? They did so for the same reason that Jesus used farming or herding imagery in his parables, or for the same reason that some Iraqis might frame resistance to the US occupation in the imagery of Saladin. There isn't anything particularly significant in the use of Messianic imagery in this case.

Nor is the Messianic complex in people like Adolf Hitler a particularly unusual phenomenon. He also compared himself to Arminius (Hermann) who destroyed three Roman legions in the Teutobergerwald in AD9 and to Frederick the Great.

How often did Hitler go to church to worship (i.e. not to speechify)? Perhaps you should do some research on that?

I assume from your fervor to establish Hitler's religious bent that you are opposed to religion. That's fine. But I think people like you too often make the mistake of assuming that any reference to the Judaeochristian religion indicates that the statement maker is either "obsessed" with religion or primarily religious in their motivation and intent. You fail to take into account that prior to the Second World War religion was such an embedded part of European culture that even atheists would refer to Biblical figures and incidents, not because they believed in them but because it enabled them to clothe an idea in an imagery that everyone could understand. It doesn't necessarily indicate any sinister religious fervor.

Now obviously Germany was a Christian nation, and religion was of vital importance to many Germans. But it wasn't the primary motivator for either Adolf Hitler or most of the people who worked for or supported him.

If you want valid examples of religion as a major motivator for atrocities, I can give you two right off the top of my head: the Inquisition and the Spanish conquest of the Americas. I know there are other examples too. Nazi Germany just isn't one of them.

This is my last post to you on this thread. I see no sense in continuing to argue with you over a subject with which you clearly don't have enough familiarity to engage in an informed discussion.

[Individualist]

54. Bushitler also pays lip service to Christianity

to fool those who are too ignorant to see that he's using it merely as a tool.

[DivinBreuvage]

61. I agree with you 100%

that is why I disagree with those who assert that Hitler was a fervent Christian.

[Malva Zebrina]

55. How are we to know what his genuine beliefs were?

He took advantage of the absolute loyalty of Christians to their religion, and perhaps thinking persons in this day and age, right now, could learn some little bit, even a tiny bit, of a lesson from that. -- or maybe not-- given the stalwart loyalty to their religion, of those who are caught up in Bush's fascism as to believe a god is guiding his presidential hand and , as did Christians under Hitler, would willingly surrender the precious and wise notion of separation of church and state, for the sake of their religious beliefs. (or for money)

Whether or not Hitler was pious, or a true believer, is irrelevant, imo.

Today we are seeing the noble and wise notion of separation of church and state eroding in favor of a state religion and that religion is Christianity and a particularly malevolent one at that.


In this country, it appears that the exact same thing of using Christianity is being repeated ad Hitler, and it is getting stronger imo.

[DivinBreuvage]

68. I think one can draw some inference of his genuine beliefs

from what he said in private conversation with people he had no need to persuade or impress, such as Martin Bormann and Josef Goebbels. In fact Hitler is really quite an open book compared to an enigma like Stalin.

I don't think your statement that Hitler "took advantage of the absolute loyalty of Christians to their religion" is very accurate; nor would I agree that the Germans had any real political concept of the separation of church and state as you seem to think. Of course it is possible to identify religious leaders who were fervently pro-Nazi, just as it is possible to identify religious leaders who opposed Hitler so strenuously that they were killed for it; but, on the whole, religion appears to have been rather a weak motivator for the German people in their support of Hitler and the Nazi Government. They didn't back Hitler because they believed God wanted them to; they backed him because he was restoring Germany to her "rightful" place among the nations, and when that started to go south they backed him because they were terrified of the Bolshevist Juggernaut looming from the East. Hitler himself appealed to these themes far more frequently than to the Christian faith of his listeners. Your suggestion that Hitler got the Germans to do what they did by playing upon Christianity like some pied piper, is just not true.

Furthermore, I think that the question of whether Hitler was pious or a true believer most certainly is relevant when one makes the assertion that he was "a fervent Christian". Hitler is not exactly a neutral or insignificant personality after all. It becomes even more relevant when one attempts to infer some kind of sinister symbiosis between Christianity and Hitler/Nazism, as is often done here on DU.

All that being said, I agree wholeheartedly with you that the separation of church and state is noble and wise, and it is very ominous and frightening to see how rapidly it is being torn down. I would also agree with you that the malevolent right-wing strain of Christianity in America is a very real threat. In fact I would argue that love of religion (I do not say love of God) is to Americans what the love of Germany was to the Germans of the Nazi years.

[Malva Zebrina]

70. No one knows how fervent he was, really.

I don't think your statement that Hitler "took advantage of the absolute loyalty of Christians to their religion" is very accurate; nor would I agree that the Germans had any real political concept of the separation of church and state as you seem to think.

You may want to look over an essay/article by Thom Hartman on this concept. Scalia, a very devoted Catholic, said in a speech that it was because Germany had separation of church and state, that the holocaust occurred.!!! Remember that? Unbelievable

http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/8859.htm

Who was it that took advantage by making Christianity the state religion? Someone had to agree and it is certain that the church leaders did agree (not only Catholics; don't forget, Lutherans)and those leaders were the ones who existed before the state took over the religion and those leaders had no opposition at all from the pews that consisted of the common citizen.

Your suggestion that Hitler got the Germans to do what they did by playing upon Christianity like some pied piper, is just not true.

In you post #61 you said you agreed with the post #49. and that #49 post said that Bush takes advantage of Christianity by "paying lip service to it " and to fool those who are too ignorant to see it, and your above statement seems to contradict that in view of the subject of this thread.

I fail to see how Stalin enters into the discussion of Hitler. That seems to me to be another discussion for another thread.

As for his private conversations-- how is that relevant?

I am not trying to prove that Hitler was a staunch Catholic and believed totally in the Catholic theology and that was why he was so evil.

The facts as far as we know,is that he did take a religious bent in many of his speeches and he indeed did appeal to those Christian leaders and the Chirstian followers who adored him, apparently.

It is a fact that the people of Germany, on the whole, and of course there were some who did not agree who shut up, or left the country, gladly supported Hitler--indeed, fervently supported Hitler, and that goes for the leaders of the Christian churches who willing handed over the leadership in the church to Hitler and his third Reich by becoming a religion controlled by the state.

This simply cannot be denied. There was NO great Christian uprising over the fact that Hitler took over the churches and put them under his fascist belt as there was NO great uprising over his expanding his empire by invading other countries. In fact, he was appeased by most other countries in many ways.

The people of Germany, on the whole, vigorously and with gratitude in their hearts, supported Hitler. Religion played a large part in the goals of Hitler and he knew it was a strong appeal that would benefit him politically--and it did.

[DivinBreuvage]

74. You're using Antonin Scalia to prove your point?

Scalia is openly opposed to the separation of church and state, and his statement has as much credibility as Jerry Falwell blaming September 11 on liberals and homosexuality. Shame on you for not knowing better than this.

>>your above statement seems to contradict that in view of the subject of this thread.

Not at all. I agree that Hitler payed lip service to religion to make people feel comfortable with him. I do not agree that his lip service to religion was a primary factor in getting the majority of Germans to support him, nor do I believe that religion was a primary motivator for most Germans who supported or worked for the Nazi regime.

>>I fail to see how Stalin enters into the discussion of Hitler. That seems to me to be another discussion for another thread.

This was in response to your question "How are we to know what his genuine beliefs were?" My point was that Hitler was really pretty open about what he thought, as opposed to someone like Stalin who was pathologically secretive.

>>As for his private conversations-- how is that relevant?

Again, this was in response to your question "How are we to know what his genuine beliefs were?" We can gain some understanding of what his genuine beliefs were through his private conversations. I don't understand why you would ask this question and then pretend to be so obtuse about the answering of it.

You are right when you say that "the people of Germany, on the whole, vigorously and with gratitude in their hearts, supported Hitler." You are also right to say that many Christians and churches supported him wholeheartedly. I just don't agree with the assertion that religion played a particularly significant role for most Germans in their support, or that Hitler's religious remarks played a particularly significant factor in winning that support. If you want to find something to blame it should be nationalism, not religion.

[Frederik]

56. Well I don't know if

Bush is such a fervent Christian either, when it comes to his genuine beliefs...

[Finder]

57. Point is...he used religion.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed.



I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.



What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.



This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.



And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.

http://atheism.about.com/library/quotes/bl_q_AHitler.htm

[DivinBreuvage]

69. Point is.... not in any meaningful way.

Other factors were far more important to Hitler and the German people, as I point out in post #68. I certainly understand the desire of some people here to use the supposed Christianity of Adolf Hitler as a club to beat something with, but it's just not accurate or honest to do so. In fact it's something a conservative would do.

Most of the quotes you cite are from Mein Kampf, which was written early in Hitler's political career and was, of course, intended for public consumption. If you are interested in a more accurate portrait of what he really believed, I would point you to the lengthy monologues he delivered to his inner circle, which were recorded "for posterity" by Martin Bormann (note how many times he compares Christianity to a disease, which in itself is very meaningful to those who know what significance the theme of disease had to Hitler's mind):

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together...."

"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>."

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity."

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself...."

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity...."

"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity...."

"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse...."

"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....

"Christianity <is> the liar...."

"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer...."

"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea."

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery...."

"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics."

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."

[Finder]

72. You are still missing the point...

Fascism is about power. If you have a chance to check out the piece in Harpers by Jeff Sharlet--Jesus plus nothing, do so. The Nazis were successful in getting most of the people to go along with them. I don't know what history books you are reading but even the Church has come forward to apologize for its part in the travesty.(Thanks to Pope John Paul II)

Hitler gave big tax breaks, made religion mandatory in school and created the "us vs them" society. The German people saw "godless communism" and the Liberal Jewish Elite as their enemy. Cults(small sects), Atheists, and Homosexuals were also sent to camps. The same memes being used today were used back then.

What they believed or said between themselves is of no matter. The fact they used religion, fear and patriotism to garner support is the point. Many in our own government adopted a lot of Nazi tactics against communism in the Cold War. Same old enemy of my enemy is my friend crap that gets us in trouble every time.

[DivinBreuvage]

75. Not if the point is that religion was a significant factor

It played a minor role. Some people on this forum keep referring to Hitler's supposed Christianity as if it were a major factor in doing what he did, or in getting people to go along with him. That's just not true, and that's what I take exception to.

What Hitler believed or said most certainly does matter when one makes the assertion that he was a fervent Christian. Does it matter if someone says I'm a fervent Christian, whether I am or not? Not really. Does it matter if someone says you're a fervent Christian, whether you are or not? Not really. Does it matter if someone says Hitler was a fervent Christian? Yes.

Furthermore, Fascism isn't really the point either. It is utterly irrelevant whether Bush is a fascist or whether the US today is "eerily similar" to Nazi Germany. The mode of tyranny is meaningless; the tyranny itself is the only important detail. So what should we be doing? I don't know.

[Finder]

76. Christianity was a MAJOR factor

as it is a major factor in politics today. And don't get Fascism and Nazism mixed up. Like Soviet communism, it was a style, not a pure "ISM".

The Nazi propogandists used the bible and religious writings to demonize the Jews and other groups.

[DivinBreuvage]

79. No it wasn't. Post your facts and prove me wrong.

Citing a couple of lines from Der Stürmer or an early quote from Martin Niemoller isn't sufficient. Demonstrate in a convincing, fact-buttressed way that a significant number of the German people supported Hitler first and foremost because of appeals to their religion.

Goebbels published a few of Nostradumus' prophecies with explanations of how they applied to Hitler, for the benefit of those who believed in such things. By your reasoning we may now say that astrology played a major role in getting the Germans to support Hitler.

Did I get Fascism and Nazism mixed up? I'm not aware that I did; but if I did, perhaps you can you point out a significant distinction between the two.

[Finder]

82. Here is an AP from 1933

From the Lansing State Journal newspaper (Lansing, Michigan) of February 23, 1933.

HITLER AIMS BLOW AT 'GODLESS' MOVE
Chancellor's Forces Seek the Catholic Support for Latest Campaign



BERLIN, Feb. 23 (AP)--A campaign against the "godless movement" and an appeal for Catholic support were launched Wednesday by Chancellor Adolf Hitler's forces. They struck at two of his formidable opponents in the March 5 elections, the first at communists and the latter at the allied Catholic parties.

Meanwhile five more persons were killed and scores were injured Tuesday night in the incipient civil war which has been waging since Hitler's rise to power. This brought the number of deaths in political clashes since the first of the year, when Hitler began negotiations for the chancellorship, to about 70.

A campaign against the "godless movement" was announced by Bernard Rust, nazi commissioner for education and culture in Prussia, in an address Tuesday night before students at the technical university here. He said the details would be revealed in the next few days. In his speech opening the campaign for the reichstag and Prussian diet elections, Hitler attacked communists for the spread of atheism.

An appeal to Catholic nazis was printed Wednesday in Hitler's Voelkischer Beobachter, assailing the Catholic centrist and populist parties. It recalled the papal encyclical of January 9, 1928, which admonished priests to serve the religious interests of the nation and not to affiliate with political parties. Hitler, himself, is a Catholic.

Nazis invaded a centrist campaign meeting at Trier but were repulsed after a stiff fight. Several persons were injured at Kiel and Opladen in nazi-reichsbanner clashes.

[Finder]

83. Another good article with quotes

The Religion of Hitler
...

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mien Kampf never appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books.

He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of their countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."

Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.

Hitler, like some of today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." He liked corporal punishment in home and in school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it. If past is prologue, we know what to expect if liberty becomes license.


more...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/religionofhitler.html

[Finder]

85. And regarding Bormann....

Hitler's Table Talk

Those who deny Hitler as a Christian will invariably find the recorded table talk conversations of Hitler from 1941 to 1944 as incontrovertible evidence that he could not have been a Christian. The source usually comes from the English translation edition by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, with an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper.

The table talk has Hitler saying such things such as: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."

But those that argue against Hitler's Christianity fail to see that Christianity comes in many forms, two of which consist as: a belief system held by Christians, and organized religion. It was the latter, organized Christianity, that Hitler spoke against (just as many Christians do today). Not once does Hitler denounce his own Christianity nor does he speak against Jesus. On the contrary, the Table-Talk has Hitler speaking admirably about Jesus. But the problems with using Hitler's table talk conversations as evidence for Hitler's apostasy are manyfold:

1) The reliability of the source (hearsay and editing by the anti-Catholic, Bormann)

2) The Table-Talk reflects thoughts that do not occur in Hitler's other private or public conversations.

3) Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity.

4) The Table-Talk does not concur with Hitler's actions for "positive" Christianity.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reliability of the source

Not one of Hitler's table talk conversations were recorded or captured by audio, film, or broadcast on radio. According to H.R. Trevor-Roper, Hitler refused to admit any mechanical recorder into his room. Hitler reluctantly allowed Martin Bormann to pick stenographers (Heim, Piker) to record the conversations. It was Bormann's idea to record Hitler's thoughts in the first place. In a facsimile written after the last of Hitler's recorded table talk, Bormann wrote a directive that stated:

"Please keep these notes most carefully, as they will be of very great value in the future. I have now got Heim to make comprehensive notes as a basis for these minutes. Any transcript which is not quite apposite will be re-checked by me." (bold characters, mine)

"Apposite" means, fitting; suitable; appropriate. Exactly what Bormann means by "re-checked" can only be speculated upon. However, it bears importance here that neither Heim nor Bormann could hardly be in a position to determine what deems apposite, considering Bormann's biased views against Catholicism. Should we take it as simply coincidence that the church denouncements by Hitler in the Table-Talk parallel the anti-church sentiments of Martin Bormann, but nowhere else?

Martin Bormann served as the instigator, fuel, and reason for the perception of many Christians that Nazism was against Christianity. Many times, quotes attributed to Hitler are actually Bormann's. It is well known that Bormann secretly worked against the Catholic religion behind Hitler's back and without his permission. It has been pointed out that "the fight against the church organizations" were Bormann's pet project. In spite of Bormann's repeated attempts to persuade Hitler to act against the Churches, Hitler insisted that "There has been no official Party announcement, nor will there be one."

How can any honest seeker of truth rely on Hitler's table talk when the entire transcript was edited and kept by the anti-Catholic Bormann?

Two scribes recorded Hitler's conversations at the appointment of Martin Bormann. One was recorded by a civil servant in the Reich Ministry of Justice, Heinrich Heim from 5th July 1941 to 20th March 1942. Later, from 21st March 1942 until 31st July 1942, it was taken by Dr. Henry Piker. The record, whether taken by Heim or Picker, was passed to Bormann. Bormann made two copies of his record. One of these was kept in the Fuhererbau in Munich and was burnt at the end of the war; the other was sent to the Berghof at Berchtesgaden and came ultimately into the hands of M. Genoud. It is this second copy of which the volume of Hitler's table talk was translated.

Moreover, Dr. Picker regarded his own recording as authentic and insisted that "no confidence can be placed in Bormann's editing of it." Indeed, he writes, rather testily, of "Bormann's alterations, not authorised by me." . Unfortunately, we do not have the unaltered version of Dr. Picker's or Heim's recordings.

In other words, there are no originals and the copies were filtered and edited by Bormann. The table talk cannot



http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

[DivinBreuvage]

89. There are some serious problems with your sources

Due to work obligations I haven't had time to respond to you yet, but will do so this evening.

[tofubo]

50. similar post i did on another board (on history, not hitler)

from www.answers.com/topic/benjamin-harrison
Harrison, Benjamin

(1833-1901), twenty-third president of the United States. After graduating from Miami University in Ohio, his birthplace, this grandson of President William Henry Harrison became a lawyer in Indianapolis. A staunch Republican, he fought for the Union and emerged from the Civil War a brigadier general. Despite an iceberg-like personality and the loss of the gubernatorial campaign of 1876, he became Indiana's leading Republican. Although undistinguished during a term in the U.S. Senate, Harrison, as an inoffensive war hero from a crucial state, won the Republican nomination in 1888 with the help of James G. Blaine's endorsement. Because his supporters were strategically located, Harrison was elected by a majority in the electoral college even though the incumbent, Grover Cleveland, received more popular votes.
Harrison influenced legislation and was an efficient executive, but his lackluster personality made his administration seem colorless. In conjunction with the Republican-controlled "Billion Dollar Congress" of 1890, his administration was remarkably productive. To wipe out the $100 million surplus of revenues over expenditures, Congress passed a generous Dependent and Disability Pension Act and the protectionist McKinley Tariff, which raised rates higher than ever before. Responding to pressure from the West, Congress approved the Sherman Silver Purchase Act, which required that the government buy 4.5 million ounces of silver each month and pay for it with Treasury certificates. Harrison managed the inflationist tendency of this legislation by redeeming the certificates in gold. At his request and to make good a plank in the Republican party's 1888 platform, Congress also passed the Sherman Antitrust Act, which was by far the most influential law passed during his administration.

---but then---
from http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h762.html

Agitation for action on the silver question was intense by 1890. Farmers were straining under growing debt and sharply falling prices. Western mining interests were anxious for a ready market for their silver and exerted pressure on Congress. Western voices were much stronger with the recent addition of Idaho, Montana, Washington, Wyoming and the Dakotas to the Union.

The Sherman Silver Purchase Act was part of a broader compromise. The Democrats gave their support to the highly protective McKinley Tariff in return for Republican votes for silver.

-- then we had to ---

Repeal of the Sherman Silver Purchase Act. Cleveland had concluded that the major cause of the Panic of 1893 was the drain on the gold reserves generated by the Sherman Silver Purchase Act of 1890. The president summoned Congress into special session in the spring of 1893. Republicans joined a segment of the Democratic Party to repeal the measure, but Cleveland was disappointed to conclude that the economic distress was not relieved. Western and Southern members of the president’s party were upset by his cooperation with their political opponents on an issue of vital importance in their districts.

there's a parable in there somewhere, we are on the verge of a major panic (dollar falling, gas prices rising, salaries stagnating), we can only hope that congress doesn't pass a give away (like tax cuts to the rich, oops already done that), so they then don't have to repeal it with even more onerous bills and measures

oh well, it looks like my train of thought derailed somewhere along the line, but does anyone else see the events happening all over again ??
(oh, and as an aside, benjamin harrison and george wtf bush are both related to king edward the 1st)

(harrison by the way)

Despite a falling-out with Blaine and other party leaders, Harrison was renominated for the presidency in 1892, but this time he lost decisively to Cleveland. The dissatisfaction of New York Republicans, the anger of civil service reformers over his appointment policies, the alienation of western farmers favoring inflation and opposing protection, and labor unrest were responsible for his defeat. He was able, but his accomplishments and his personality offended more supporters than they attracted. In retirement, Harrison lectured and served as chief counsel for Venezuela in its boundary dispute with Great Britain)

this time cleveland "lost" and bush "won"

[Finder]

58. Good post and link.

Until we are allowed to really study fascism rather than read the "victor's" whitewashed accounts, history will keep repeating. What we call fascism is not new, nor is it unique to WW2.

[goodboy]

64. I think we need to use the term Fascist more. We know it really bothers

the right, because the truth hurts...Calling attention to this is the first step toward shaking the American people awake. I like putting hitler's quotes on a notecard, reading it to a right-wing fascist, and then asking them who said it...99% of the time, they say BUSH SAID IT...what does that tell you>

Those bastards don't have any problem calling us Commies, so let's call them what they are...Fascists.

[Dangerman]

63. History WILL repeat itself...

If we do not impeach Bushler next year, Hitler and his Nazis are members of the Vienna Boys Choir compared to what will happen.

[goodboy]

65. Yep...LTTE's are a great way to get the message out. Also, in discussion

with any rightwingers you have, call attention to the similarities based on fact between bush and hitler, and then...call them what they are.l


Being nice never got us anywhere.

[goodboy]

71. thank you DU, for your support on this topic. I'll say it again, we need

to call these fascists what they are. We're gonna have to be the people who shake the sleeping population awake.

[thecai]

90. Many Americans Are

"Blind in one eye and can't see outta the other one", if they don't notice what's been going on these past several years in the U.S. of A....