Fellow carnivores: ever have reservations about eating meat?

[Jesus Saves]

When I see animals *play*, you know, take enjoyment in their own existence, it gives me pause. I'm not talking about fish. But you know, the larger mammals, even birds for that matter.

Sometimes we think of animals as guided entirely by instinct. Someone will ask 'Why did such and such an animal do that" - and the answer is "instinct" of course. But ya know, the ability to play, you know that's kinda something else.

I'm not saying I'm ready to stop eating meat. Actually I like to hunt, although in the last ten years I've only done some scattered pheasant hunting.

Fish, well I'll probably always eat fish.

[Name removed]

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[hobbit709]

19. First thing I learned

in survival training way back was "If it moves, it's edible, if it grows, it may kill you". Now some things that move have the ability to kill you too, so I try not to pick on them. Anything with big teeth, fangs or venom I believe in a mutual nonaggression pact. but if you're out in the middle of nowhere and don't know plants are edible, what parts of the plant are edible, or what plants need to be cooked/processed to make them nontoxic, leave them alone. Raw lizard don't taste half bad after two day in the desert.

[Worst Username Ever]

2. None whatsoever.

Well, when it comes to red meat, I think of my health. Consequently, I limit my consumption of red meat considerably.

[lastknowngood]

3. Only after it's turned green on the outside.

n/t

[SnoopDog]

4. Ever see the History Channel show on 'meat processing'?

First I do eat meat but it is very rare.

The way our meat is produced is well disgusting.... It could change your mind forever..

[Jesus Saves]

8. That's a whole other can of worms

When I was going to school in California, we drove down the big interstate that runs down central California. We passed a huge slaughterhouse. You could smell that thing from miles away. It was an awful smell. I quit eating cow meat for awhile after that. Figured it probably came from that place.

[htuttle]

5. Animals eating animals is how Mother Earth moves the energy around

It's all 'her' anyway.

However, I gave up eating mammal meat after it started giving me abdominal craps. There's all that Mad Cow/CWD around now, too.

I just eat birds and fishes now.

[demosincebirth]

49. I think its called IBS

Eating beef is one of the things they don't recommend

[Name removed]

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[Jesus Saves]

11. That's not me at all

You got me pegged wrong.

On edit: the whole tenor of my post is serious and thoughtful.

[Pacifist Patriot]

7. "Fast Food Nation" did it for me.

Pesco-vegetarian for three years now. Don't miss it.

[whistle]

Yes, especially meat that was raised on corporate farms...

..which regularly practice mixing their dead animals into the feed of the living animals. Sort of a Pre-Solent Green corporate ethics. Fish is also being raised by corporate farming and are using the same types of practices of mixing dead animal proteins into the feed.

[Feron]

25. I agree

The rendering process is disgusting enough ,but feeding that slop to animals is wrong even if it is "just protein". It's definitely made me investigate alternatives to animal products.

[achtung_circus]

56. The feeding of animal byproducts

to mammals has been illegal since 1997.

[Jesus Saves]

57. Why do I keep hearing about it?

In relation to mad cow disease?

[achtung_circus]

81. The initial source of Mad Cow Disease

BSE or Bovine Spongioform Encephalopathy is believed to stem from scrapie in sheep. Scrapie, a Transmissible Spongioform Encephalopathy, is believed to be transmitted by deformed proteins called prions.

It was former practice to turn dead animals, through the rendering process, into protein meal for use as feed additive. Problem is, prions, unlike bacteria and viruses, pass through the rendering process. Scrapie infected sheep, rendered and fed to cattle caused BSE.

The response in North America was to ban the feeding of animals to mammals. In Canada, sheep and goats cannot be fed to anything.

That's the big BSE link. That's what started it all.

[mainer]

96. actually, what started it all was mother nature

BSE, scrapie, CJD (creutzfeldt-jakob disease), and other forms of prion-based diseases, all occur in nature. One in a million cases seems to be the spontaneous rate of occurrence. And vegetarian animals get it too. Squirrels get it! Elk get it! they're not being fed corporate feed.

Yes, the BSE problem was magnified in the UK because they fed their animals the remains of downer cows. But let's not blame the ORIGIN of BSE on mankind. It's been there all along in nature.

[achtung_circus]

106. I think I can agree with that.

the feeding of deadstock as protein exacerbated the problem and concentrated transmission.

[Jesus Saves]

160. Care to comment?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3429971&mesg_id=3434834&page=

[achtung_circus]

182. Interesting.

Thanks for the link. On a brief overview some stuff I agree with, some I disagree with, some I know to be true, some I know to be false (at least in Canada), some I don't know and some is spun. I'll take some time for a more in-depth look.

[Maru Kitteh]

142. Actually animals ARE still fed to vegetarian animals that you eat,

The 97 regulation was poorly designed to attempt to end the feeding ruminants to ruminants. Chicken are still fed their own feces and rendered chickens, pigs and cows, legally.

Cow blood is still fed to cows, legally, even though blood is known to transmit BSE. Cows are still fed the rendered bodies of cancerous and diseased pigs and chickens, who were fed the cancerous and diseased bodies of downer cows and other offal.

The 1997 ban was inadequately constructed and enforcement is NONEXISTENT. I can find NO person or entity charged with violating this worthless regulation.

In fact, it's not even a real ban - it's a labeling requirement on bags of feed containing ruminant animals only. From this article


"The 1997 FDA feed regulation is not a feed ban, but a labeling requirement that meat and bone meal from cattle and other ruminants be labeled 'do not feed to ruminants.' (MCUSA, p. 215-218) Government investigators have found that this rule has been widely ignored and poorly enforced. "

Here is a very short article from a former USDA meat inspector who was among the first to blow the whistle about mad cow.

" For each carcass, says Friedlander, inspectors are allowed only 15 seconds of inspection. Friedlander witnessed cow carcass abscesses bursting over meat that was then hosed off, wrapped up and shipped to the consumer. He encountered supervisors who were more concerned with falsifying inspection documents than protecting consumers from possible cow cancer. Just two weeks ago, he says, a cow in Texas with symptoms of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy was sent straight to the rendering plant without testing. "

www.meetyourmeat.com

[Pithlet]

9. I do

I was just thinking about this earlier, after my visit to the zoo yesterday. I've considered more than once cutting meat from my diet completely, and have even attempted it in the past. It's extremely difficult after being raised on a meat heavy diet.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. I thought I would have a problem with it...

I was raised with the Meat, Grain, Veggie formula for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Fortunately it is much easier to eat vegetarian, especially pesco-vegetarian, these days. I think my diet is much more interesting now than it was before I cut out mammals and poultry.

[Jesus Saves]

21. What about red meat

from a reputable farm, or that was killed in the wild?

[Pacifist Patriot]

67. Nope, I've lost all desire for non-seafood meat.

I was offered some organic farm raised ostrich recently and couldn't bring myself to eat it. And I used to adore ostrich.

[Jesus Saves]

74. So do you eat lots of fish now?

Several times a week? What kind of fish can you get that's fresh where you live?

[Pacifist Patriot]

80. I only eat seafood maybe two or three meals a week.

I'd say one shellfish dish a week, maybe a salad with some canned tuna on it and then a filet like tuna, salmon, tilapia or grouper for a nice meal on the weekend.

I'm one of those weirdos who actually likes "meat substitutes." Morningstar makes great veggie burgers and breakfast faux meats. I adore seitan (a wheat gluten product) and nothing beats a coconut crusted tofu in Asian slaw. I also eat a lot of dishes with beans for the major protein source.

[Pithlet]

31. My problem is I don't like veggies all that much.

I'm not a big veggie person, which doesn't help. There are few vegetables I really like. I'm a meat, cheese and carb person. I have to make an effort to include enough veggies in my diet as it is. Having kids helped, since I HAVE to buy and cook vegetables for them. I wish my palate didn't run in that direction :( I found that I was miserable on a veggie diet. The food always sucked.

[Pacifist Patriot]

70. That's a shame.

I detested vegetables as a child and into young adult hood. I find it nothing short of amazing that I like them now. Put a brussel sprout on my plate and you'll see me heave though. Whoever decided those were edible should be shot.

[tsuki]

84. I love them. We grow them in the winter down here. No bugs. No

sprays. I have several bags in the freezer. Broccoli and Califlower also. We make the cabbage into egg rolls. Collards are also frozen

Have just planted the spring garden. Spinach is up. Peas are up. Got the tomatoes blooming upside down. Potatoes this week. Sweet potatoes and squash are coming along.

[Pacifist Patriot]

88. Okay, you hit on another one.

I don't do collard greens. Too many bad memories of being forced to eat them with fat back as a child. LOL!

[tsuki]

97. I fry them. Clean them. Wash thoroughly. Dry (I use a hair blower.)

Cut them into strips. Then fry them in oil. Remove and toss with a teaspoon of salt and sugar. You will never eat Lays again.

[Maru Kitteh]

129. I don't eat vegetables in the same boring ways I did before

Plus, you don't have to eat every veg on the planet you know, you can stick to ones you like, plus there is the whole world of fruit, grains, pastas, tofu (great stuff done right), hummus, lentils, beans, etc.

My diet is much more varied and satisfying than it was before I went vegan.

[Pithlet]

151. I don't like vegetables

I've tried them in many various ways. I just don't like them. Vegetarians are always telling me that I'd learn to like them, and that my diet will be better tasting/more exciting. That just hasn't been my experience. I can't live on bread and pasta and desserts.

[Maru Kitteh]

128. I was raised in Nebraska by parents who put meat in EVERYTHING

Now I'm a vegan. It's really not so hard as long as you have some good resources. If I can do it out here on the prairie, anybody can.

try watching this: www.meetyourmeat.com

then you can get a nice veg starter kit here: http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/

and when you are looking for food ideas you can go here: http://vegweb.com/

and when you want companionship or advice you can go here: http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/index.php?

[Pithlet]

152. I just don't like vegetables.

I've tried. Really, I have. I appreciate the information and support. I'm sure I'll try again, and those resources will be helpful. I hate meat substitutes even worse than veggies, adding to the problem. I also have digestive problems that eating vegetarian seems to exacerbate.

[mimitabby]

176. it looks like you better keep eating meat

I'm not suggesting as others have, that you become a vegan
or a vegetarian, but if you aren't willing to learn more about veggies, you will never succeed (with a diet) without meat.
There are so many varieties, consistencies, flavors, of veggies.
YOu can go to an asian market and try a new veggie every day of the week and still have more to try...
then you can try little known italian veggies.
and put all sorts of wonderful cheeses on them, or just lemon...
I love meat and i will never stop eating it. we are so fortunate
here that we have choices and that people like you can muse
about whether or not meat eating makes them feel guilty...

[Pithlet]

184. I'm perfectly willing to learn

It's not that I haven't tried all those things.

[Name removed]

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[Jesus Saves]

16. That post got me thinking about this

True - but that was a joke post.

It got me thinking about how I dislike PETA, but on the other hand, I thought if they weren't so militant I could at least sympathize with them.

OTOH, I love to fly-fish, and PETA is against fishing, even catch and release fishing. PETA is so screwed up.

[seabeyond]

22. i am a be and let be kinda gal

someone wants to eat meat, fine. not fine. someone wants to smoke, not wear a helmet, speed, do drugs, drink, destroy their lives fine, someone wants to do all that is right fine.

ultimately it does no good what so ever to dictate peoples lives, because people make their choices, and another cant do it for them

this isnt one of my battles in anyway. they want to fight for animal rights, cool. my husband wants to go hunting, fine

i'll fry up the bacon

[Jesus Saves]

23. believe me, I'm not trying to dictate anything

I was asking the question from a personal level.

[Swamp Rat]

12. Would the Jesus eat doves?

[Zenlitened]

27. No, the jesus loves doves...

... it's cats he hates!

[htuttle]

75. Yes! With some favre beans and a nice Chianti!

[Sugar Smack]

95. I loved that movie-

Thomas Harris is a genius, and I really don't mind hearing quotes from Silence of the Lambs. Jodie Foster's performance was top-notch, and even though he's a repub, Anthony Hopkins did a great job.
Or maybe because of it!

:D

[Swamp Rat]

118. HAHA! You must be talkin' 'bout "Xtreme Jesus!"

:D

[Sugar Smack]

125. NOOOO! We're talkin' bout Silence of the Lambs

and it has nothing to do with Princess Bride or any of those quotes.. These are new quotes!!!!


;-)

[forgethell]

13. Animals eat each other.

Even a rabbit will eat some meat if it comes in its way. It's nature's way of keeping the environment in balance. And, as Darwin has taught us, we are animals like any other. Besides, if God hadn't intended us to eat meat, He wouldn't have made it taste so good.

Nope, no reservations at all. We are the top predator on the planet, and it is duty to eat meat.

[Uzybone]

14. Never

and fish "play" as well.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Nope.

Doesn't freak me out when I see other animals eating meat either. I watch a lot of Animal Planet and have various pets. They eat better than I do, which is fine. But, it doesn't bother me to eat meat at all. And, isn't it "speciest" to not want to eat the "cuddly" or "lager mammals and birds" but fish get nary a thought?

[Jesus Saves]

20. "Speciest"

I don't play that game. I think that whole concept is absurd. Only a whacked out PETA type would play that card.

I'm not a PETA type, just a thoughtful person who sometimes thinks about things from different angles.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. That's OK

I think the concept of watching playing animals changing meat-eating behavior is absurd. By the by, I am not a PETA person. I like some things they put forth, but I feel the are a little over the top. And, I, as a thoughtful, person, just pointed out that "some animals are more equal than others." :)

[Jesus Saves]

35. Let's face it

In terms of intelligence, feelings, whatever, there is a continuum in the animal kingdom. Some animals have more of it than others. A chimp has more of it than a fish. The more an animal has of that, whatever you want to call it, the sometimes less comfortable I am in the thought of killing and eating it. Is that so hard to understand?

And as I think about it the ability to play show's breaking out of the pure instinct mode. You know, a bacteria probably doesn't play, but a mammal does, I've even seen birds play.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Fully understand what you are saying.

I agree that there is a "continuum" in the animal kingdom. My point is, does that make the animal more special than a non-playing, stupid animal? I can appreciate that it bothers you. I don't really take issue with that. Hell, you didn't even go on a "meat is murder" tirade, which I find absurd. I was simply pointing out that people's sentiment gets in the way of objectivity sometimes.

I have a house full of pets, they all play. Even my fish will play chase.

[Amaya]

17. no

[xynthee]

24. Absolutely!!

I've read many horror stories about how we get meat, and it really does make me feel guilty.

But, as long as I don't think about how our meat is processed or about all the horrible things we do to animals, I can eat meat almost guilt-free.

Maybe if my husband were a vegetarian instead of a perpetual Atkins dieter, I could do it. I guess it's all his fault (what a relief)!!

[Cooley Hurd]

26. Yes... all the time...

BTW - fish play too, don't they?;)

[Jesus Saves]

37. Do they?

I'm a fly-fishermen and I'm not so sure. If they do, it's not the same way a bird or mammal plays.

[yashuryabetcha]

28. Would recommend

Reading "Fast Food Nation". It's a short read and if you are looking for a discussion on morality, the political aspects addressed here alone, may leave you rethinking your appetite.

[Jesus Saves]

39. I've read it

I've only eaten fast food a few times since then. It really is an eye-opening book.

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. if vegetables didn't make me want to vomit I'd be a vegetarian

I wouldn't kill and animal under any circumstances. I don't even like killing insects.

But I can't eat vegetables, any vegetables. I just hate them.

[Maru Kitteh]

177. Love your animation - have to ask you a few honest questions

Do you eat any vegetables?
Have you only eaten them plain? Do you like them in stews, soups or chilis? Do you eat pasta sauces? Have you tried any vegetables raw? Stir fried? Is there an ethnic food you prefer?

How do feel about fruits?

And lastly, if you don't mind, what is your age?

www.meetyourmeat.com

[MrSlayer]

30. No, never.

I doubt I ever will.

[solinvictus]

33. Sometimes..especially after the other night.

A few nights ago, my little chihuahua, Fiona, cried aloud because she caught one of her nails in a blanket and couldn't get it loose without pain. Of course, I freaked out and worked her out of the mess, but her cry of pain gave me pause. It made me imagine how many millions of times per day piglets cry after being pulled from their mothers or adult pigs scream in pain and fear as they're led down a slaughter shoot. It honestly makes me wonder about eating meat and the ethics of animal slaughter. Why do we, on the whole, treasure dogs when pigs are equally intelligent?

[Jesus Saves]

41. Yep

that's what I'm talking about. Well put.

[flvegan]

43. It's all in the human ego.

Why do WE treasure one and not the other...because we, as people define their value, rather than accepting the value that they inherently have. Because we can abuse them, destroy them and eat them, we do. Because we "can" doesn't make it right.

BTW, there are no ethics in animal slaughter. None.

Pain and fear...and we're the cause of it, for absolutely no good reason outside of taste, or personal lack thereof.

[solinvictus]

46. I'm beginning to agree with you...

in some ways. I still can't see a problem with fish, shellfish, or mollusks as they have no complex nervous system.

[achtung_circus]

68. screaming?

"adult pigs scream in pain and fear as they're led down a slaughter shoot."

The cutoff for acceptable vocalization rates in slaughter hogs is 10% or less. That's any vocalization.

The gold standard for livestock welfare during slaughter is Dr. Temple Grandin of Colorado. Her website has almost too much info. She conducts audits of slaughter plants and has developed the audit system generally used in North America.

<http://www.grandin.com/humane/rec.slaughter.html>

[Jesus Saves]

71. That

all sounds well and good.

"When stunning is done correctly, the animal feels no pain and it becomes instantly unconscious. An animal that is stunned properly will produce a still carcass that is safe for plant workers to work on."

I still remember the slaughter house I passed in California. The herds of cows heading into it. The smell, the awful smell. I don't know man - if in practice, it's quite that clean and tidy.

[achtung_circus]

92. I can't speak to California,

but I do know that much of the former odour from slaughter houses was from the offal stored on site. Offal is the "leftovers" entrails, etc. Some of the smell might be good old manure.

I do know that Canadian slaughter houses have very strict cleanliness requirements. It is still difficult and bloody work.

We hear about the exceptional cases, like the chicken plant videotaped by PETA because they are the exception. Animal welfare is consistently rated as the #2 food concern after food safety. The industry is aware of that rating. Some jurisdictions producer groups are actively seeking partnerships with enforcement in order to weed out the bad apples. Here is one of the best examples:
<http://www.afac.ab.ca/>

[Jesus Saves]

93. So you that Tyson video was an exception?

to the rule...

[achtung_circus]

102. I do.

Again, I can't speak for conditions in the US but behaviour like that in a Canadian plant would result in charges, either under Provincial welfare legislation or possibly under the Criminal Code of Canada. Meat inspectors here arte required to report such behaviour, a video like that (should the behaviour not be observed by a meat inspector) would be a slam dunk case.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. Unfortunately the beef and poultry industries in the US are heavyweights

I wouldn't trust the US gummint with regards to that as far as I could throw 'em.

[achtung_circus]

114. I've heard horror stories about the USDA

they are the farmers' friend and see themselves as enablers rather than regulators. I don't know why the people involved in the Tyson video were not charged.

In Alberta, for example, the Animal Protection Act charge of causing "distress" is a "strict liability" offence. Intent in not required. It happened- you're guilty, unless you can prove "due diligence". That's true in someone's backyard or the Cargill plant that kills 6,000 cattle per day.

[Jesus Saves]

116. Wow

that is strict, and serious.

[Warren DeMontague]

107. Drive up Route 5 sometime from Los Angeles on a hot day.

Phew.

For the record, I think factory farming is bad on several levels, I personally don't eat much poultry and no red meat anymore. When I do eat chicken it's free range, organic, etc. I mostly eat fish but (thanks to Bush and his EPA) that is becoming increasingly dangerous... Frightening.

But I don't preach at other people about how they eat.

[achtung_circus]

115. I don't know the area

are there hog barns, chicken barns, what? I've heard of dairy "farms" in California milking thousands of cows. I do know "Feedlot Alley" in southern Alberta. Mile after mile of chicken barns, hog barns, feed mills and feedlots.

[Warren DeMontague]

137. I think there's a "farm" with something like a million cows...

or something ridiculous like that. I forget what, specifically, it is, but there is absolutely no mistaking that SOMETHING smells horribly putrid for approximately 50 or so miles. If you're lucky.

Actually, just googling "route 5 stench" I found this information:

http://www.latimes.com/extras/drivetime/

(The "Charms" of Route 5... That's a laugh. The only thing that's charming about it is it's a really fast way to zip from the Bay Area to LA, and vice-versa.)

Not everything is appealing along the way. There’s the stench emanating from the large number of cattle grazing at Harris Ranch near Coalinga. Coalinga, considered by some the halfway point between L.A. and San Francisco, offers service stations, lodging and food.

Ahh, the wonders of the internet.

[ohio_liberal]

132. Ick, I know that smell

There's a mom and pop grocery store here in town and they buy a slaughtered cow from a small-time meat packing plant - they're supposed to be a humane facility but I don't know for sure. The grocery store cuts the meat on premises from those big sides of beef. I can't even walk in the store it reeks so bad. It literally smells like something died in there, all the time. And it's a smell you remember forever.

[davekriss]

183. I recall once...

...when driving between two midwest cities, late at night while I was at a gas station, a truck carrying a load of pigs pulled into the station. I never heard so much fear-fulled screaming in my life. The lot of them sounded so terrified!

If the unabashed meat-and-potatoers amongst us can shirk off causing so much terror in these pigs without another thought, does that say something about their sensitivity toward sufferring in general? Would not the same persons be less inclined to care about people being ripped to shreds by American bombs in distant lands where skin color and culture differ from their own? I do think there is a continuum here. Wolfowitz and Cheney and Rumsfeld must really enjoy a juicy prime rib! (Note I acknowledge that its a giant step from a meat eater to a callous imperial warmonger, but there is probably some relationship between the two.)

Dogs: I recall seeing something on PBS once about a resturant somewhere in the far east that served fresh dog. The cook would go out back to a pen of white dogs and select one for slaughter. The odd thing is he was followed by his two pet dogs!

Dogs II: I have a wiemeraner and a labrador retriever. Not enough meat on the wiemy to make a meal, but that fat tender lab ... hmmm... (she's looking up at me now with doeful eyes!)

[aikidoodler]

34. It's their own fault for being so delicious

Feeling guilty would be doing a disservice to the memory of those distant ancestors of mine who spent so much time running from large predators. We should not forget those who struggled for so long to reach the top of the food chain.

I'm talking about around 1930. My family evolved later than most everyone else.

--edited to remove idiotic spelling

[kwyjibo]

36. I have a hard time with meat on the bone.

It's just too hard not to imagine where it goes on the animal, like ribs..

Also, I can't stand fish/shellfish that still has its head/tail/skin. Even as much as I love the flavor of shrimp, if I see the little legs, I get really grossed out.

Despite that, I've tried being vegetarian and it's too difficult. I love eating meat, and I think life is too short to deprive yourself of really good food.

[ohio_liberal]

134. I hear you

I can't eat shrimp because I can see the veins in the flesh. It makes me sick to look at it. And chicken, I can't touch raw chicken and then eat it later. It's slimy and disgusting.

[hobbit709]

135. the "vein'

in the shrimp most people can't handle is actually the digestive tract and is usually full of the plankton that shrimp eat.

[Maru Kitteh]

178. Otherwise known as shrimp shit

Yum yum. Most shrimp come to you shit and all, especially the little ones. Gross. :puke:

[justjones]

38. I took a human anatomy class....

with real cadavers. That class made me seriously pause about eating meat.

But being the carnivore that I am, I got over it fairly quickly.

The whole experience just made me realize that we too are animals, we just happen to be on top of the food chain. In the right circumstances, we'd be "meat" for other animals....we aren't much different.

[Jesus Saves]

42. Woah

That's heavy. I've never seen a human cadaver, but I can imagine it must be a shock of sorts at first.

[justjones]

50. It was definitely an experience.

I didn't study a complete cadaver...in fact, it was a lower division anatomy class at a university, so we studied what was left over from the medical students. They are the ones who dissect the complete cadaver.

So it was more like arms and legs with the muscle, tendons, etc, intact and exposed. It took me a few days to get over how bizarre it was to be studying human anatomy like that when we are taught through popular culture that only serial killers are exposed to things like that, which, btw, made me realize only the sickest of the sick could get anything other than intellectual stimulation from it.

[Jesus Saves]

53. I'd have a tough time doing that

I understand it's essential for doctors to get that kind of training. It's totally essential. I suppose I'd get over it if I was training to be a doctor.

But the first few times I'd be thinking something like how someone loved that person. You know, like kissed the lips and arms and hands that we were now dissecting. It'd freak me out. Make me feel uneasy, like I was violating something sacred.

[Stirk]

155. I had a similar experience from working with a cadaver.

I was an art major and we worked on cadavers for our medical illustration work. Somehow I had a picture in my head of the human body as one of those clean, colored diagrams we studied in high school. But it's no different from any other animal, of course. I guess I knew that already on some level, but it was still a shock.

[Left Is Write]

40. No.

But then again, I don't consider myself a carnivore, which implies I eat *only* meat. I'm an omnivore. I eat a little of everything.

[theliberalavenger]

44. Read Fast-Food Nation...

Read Fast Food Nation - then you'll have reservations.

[Pacifist Patriot]

69. That served as my epiphany.

The movie "SuperSize Me" darn near made me vomit.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

47. Rarely

Humans are successful as a species partly because we can live off a wide variety of foods. Meat happens to be one of the foods we can eat.

That said, corporate ranches, slaughter houses, and packing plants are disgusting. As a child, I had a friend who's family owned a farm and grew their own cows, chickens, pigs, etc. The animals were well cared for, and the meat was fantastic. I stopped shopping at Walmart years ago, but I've eaten meat bought from their meat department and it was disgusting. Imagine the corners they have to cut to make it cheap enough to sell at Walmart! I now buy my meat from a locally owned grocery chain that provides very good meat and produce, much of it locally produced.

[Vogon_Glory]

48. I Have Reservations--Then I Get Over Them

I do have reservations about eating meat from time to time, but I usually get over them.

I eat relatively little beef--health reasons. I do eat a lot of chicken and I have few scruples about either eating chicken or turkey.

I do enjoy watching animals. But I've seen enough animal activity not to believe in gooey cartoon sentimentality about the cute, innocent birds and bunny rabbits--blah, blah, blah. Animals, especially carnivores and a lot of the primates, really aren't all that nice to each other or to other species.

[Stephanie]

51. Isn't this a Lounge thread?

[Jesus Saves]

52. Is it?

Mebbe.

[Dave Reynolds]

54. No.

[Jesus Saves]

55. Yes.

[Dave Reynolds]

59. Nuh uh.

The only reservations I have are at a good steakhouse.

[Jesus Saves]

62. Yeah huh

From now on it's broccoli and cauliflower for you.

And pork rinds, you can have pork rinds, I know how much you love those.

[Ladyhawk]

58. All the time.

I know animals are more than mere automatons. I am owned by a parrot, so there can be no mistaking the intelligence of this beautiful creature.

I still eat meat, but have considered becoming a vegetarian at certain points in my life. I'm not ready to make that commitment just yet, but yes, I've thought about it.

At the same time, I realize that the whole "circle of life" thing means that certain creatures eat other creatures. That's just the way it is. However, it could be argued that humans have partially removed themselves from the circle, so we really have no right to re-enter it to take. :shrug:

[Jesus Saves]

60. It's a conundrum

I love a good steak.

Maybe someday I'll limit myself to fish. A halibut steak can be just as delicious as a T-Bone.

But I don't know if I could ever fully get myself to stop eating red meat. I love cheeseburgers too. Especially green chili cheeseburgers, of the type they sell in the Southwest.

[Ladyhawk]

101. I have the same problem. :)

I like hamburgers a lot. The mad cow thing made me stop eating them for about a month, then I decided that was no fun at all. I'm not sure I'm cut out to be a vegetarian. I promised myself that when I got a chance, I would review my opinion on this issue. :)

I've already had to change so many of my core beliefs during the past ten years that my head is reeling. I decided that this could take a back seat, at least for awhile.

[Bouncy Ball]

61. So many reservations, in fact, that as of Saturday, I am a vegetarian.

It's been four days now. I feel great and it hasn't been difficult.

I watched some videos on how these animals live their miserable lives and how they are killed. It was God-awful. I was already leaning toward not eating meat and that did it. No way.

I am not against eating meat PERIOD. If these animals could live their lives as happy and healthy animals, then be killed in a quick and HUMANE manner, I would not have a problem with it. But that is not the case, sadly.

[Jesus Saves]

65. There are places, health food stores, etc....

where you can get meat that was raised well, and treated good...

[Maru Kitteh]

189. Meat is not a health food

Can you fit it into a healthy diet? Of course. Very, very little of it, but yes. Are you better off without it? Demonstrably, yes. Look up the China Health Study, the largest human study ever conducted.

Heart attacks are never the work of apples and asparagus. Cholesterol does not come from bananas and tomatoes. Nobody gets fat from eating cucumbers and cantaloupe. Doctors will never advise you to lay off the dark leafy vegetables. Colon cancer and diverticulitis is not caused by carrots or cabbages. Kidney stones, alzheimers, impotence............ not caused by grapes or grains, rice or rutabagas.

[OneBlueSky]

63. I've pretty much stopped eating beef and pork . . .

except for the occasional BLT . . . meat consumption these days is almost exclusively fish and fowl . . . having been raised a carnivore, it's taking me some time to bring my dietary habits in line with my values . . .

[applegrove]

64. I know it is terrible for the environment..but I love meat. I think if the

banned industrial meant I would get a hobby farm. No - actually I couldn't get used to killing. See I know I am a hypocrite on meat. I'll try and eat more salads.

[mainer]

66. Carnivorous behavior allowed us to evolve to advanced societies

sorry to my vegetarian friends. i've tried to be vegetarian myself, but never made it past two weeks before I started having dreams about eating meat.

Without carnivorous behavior, humans never would have moved to northern climates. High protein diets seem to be associated with rapid brain growth.

Can anyone name any culture that achieved technological advancement while being purely vegetarian?

[htuttle]

72. Yer got a false linkage there

Human brain size has not grown a bit since we were Cro-Magnon. If you are talking about 'cultures achieving technological advancement', you are talking about people with equivalent sized brains.

In answer to that question anyway, there have been few cultures that have been entirely vegetarian. Cultures in India have been nearly vegetarian at many times. Even they have dishes like lamb curry, however. Buddhist monks have generally been vegetarian, but they've never comprised a separate culture -- with the possible exception of Tibet (though there are Tibetan meat dishes I'm aware of).

Speaking again historically, the difference in technological levels (though I think you're really talking about technological development, not advancement) between cultures today is insignificant, and relatively recent.

Finally, fish comprise the lion's share of many of the most Northern cultures. There's a lot more fish than walrus out on the ice. Easier to catch, too.

[Pacifist Patriot]

76. Yes, given that "culture" as we know it has only evolved in the last...

100,000 years or so, diet isn't really a good indicator of cultural differences as far as technological advancement is concerned. Heck, neanderthal man had a larger average brain capacity than we do.

[mainer]

78. If you eat fish, you're not vegetarian.

[Pacifist Patriot]

86. True

There are quite a few sub-categories of "vegetarian"

Vegan
Ovo-lacto
Pesco-

Of course pesco-vegetarian not being a strictly vegetarian diet. Then again, ovo-lacto isn't really either.

To each his own. Pesco-vegetarians still tend to eat fewer meat products than do those with the traditional "American diet."

[mainer]

82. some berkely research on meat eating and evolution

Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet



By Patricia McBroom, Public Affairs



BERKELEY-- Human ancestors who roamed the dry and open savannas of Africa about 2 million years ago routinely began to include meat in their diets to compensate for a serious decline in the quality of plant foods, according to a physical anthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley.


It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain, said Katharine Milton, an authority on primate diet.


Without meat, said Milton, it's unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton.


Her thesis complements the discovery last month by UC Berkeley professor Tim White and others that early human species were butchering and eating animal meat as long ago as 2.5 million years. Milton's article integrates dietary strategy with the evolution of human physiology to argue that meat eating was routine. It is published this month in the journal "Evolutionary Anthropology" (Vol.8, #1).


Milton said that her theories do not reflect on today's vegetarian diets, which can be completely adequate, given modern knowledge of nutrition.


"We know a lot about nutrition now and can design a very satisfactory vegetarian diet," said Milton, a professor in the Department of Environmental Science, Policy & Management.


But she added that the adequacy of a vegetarian diet depends either on modern scientific knowledge or on traditional food habits, developed over many generations, in which people have worked out a complete diet by putting different foods together.


In many parts of the world where people have little access to meat, they have run the risk of malnutrition, said Milton. This happened, for instance, in Southeast Asia where people relied heavily on a single plant food, polished rice, and developed the nutritional disease, beriberi. Closer to home, in the Southern United States, many people dependent largely on corn meal developed the nutritional disease, pellagra.


Milton argues that meat supplied early humans not only with all the essential amino acids, but also with many vitamins, minerals and other nutrients they required, allowing them to exploit marginal, low quality plant foods, like roots - foods that have few nutrients but lots of calories. These calories, or energy, fueled the expansion of the human brain and, in addition, permitted human ancestors to increase in body size while remaining active and social.


"Once animal matter entered the human diet as a dependable staple, the overall nutrient content of plant foods could drop drastically, if need be, so long as the plants supplied plenty of calories for energy," said Milton.


The brain is a relentless consumer of calories, said Milton. It needs glucose 24 hours a day. Animal protein probably did not provide many of those calories, which were more likely to come from carbohydrates, she said.


Buffered against nutritional deficiency by meat, human ancestors also could intensify their use of plant foods with toxic compounds such as cyanogenic glycosides, foods other primates would have avoided, said Milton. These compounds can produce deadly cyanide in the body, but are neutralized by methionine and cystine, sulfur-containing amino acids present in meat. Sufficient methionine is difficult


to find in plants. Most domesticated grains - wheat, rice, maize, barley, rye and millet - contain this cyanogenic compound as do many beans and widely-eaten root crops such as taro and manioc.


Since plant foods available in the dry and deforested early human environment had become less nutritious, meat was critical for weaned infants, said Milton. She explained that small infants could not have processed enough bulky plant material to get both nutrients for growth and energy for brain development.


"I disagree with those who say meat may have been only a marginal food for early humans," said Milton. "I have come to believe that the incorporation of animal matter into the diet played an absolutely essential role in human evolution."


Milton's paper also demonstrates that the human digestive system is fundamentally that of a plant-eating primate, except that humans have developed a more elongated small intestine rather than retaining the huge colon of apes - a change in the human lineage which indicates a diet of more concentrated nutrients.


###


http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html

[Pacifist Patriot]

83. Well then I'll pay homage to those who went before me...

so that I don't have to.

the human digestive system is fundamentally that of a plant-eating primate

[mainer]

91. Modern man can easily be a healthy vegetarian

Because he has a wide variety of nutrients to choose from, not to mention vitamin and iron supplements. But primitive man had none of those things. And one of the primary afflictions of females was chronic iron deficiency and anemia from repeated childbirth. They simply couldn't get enough iron in their diets. Eating meat was one way to maintain sufficient amounts of iron stores.

Look, evolutionary researchers have no political axe to grind. None of them are out there pushing the 'carnivorous agenda' unlike so many vegetarians. They're just looking at the data and reporting what they see.

I think vegetarianism is an ideal which is easily achieved today. But people shouldn't project their politics on science and insist that ancient man simply HAD to be vegetarian just because it coincides with their utopian view of what man HAD to be.

[Pacifist Patriot]

94. But that's not what I said.

I gave a nod to exactly what you pointed out. I doubt our ancestors would have bothered with animal nutrients if it didn't satisfy a need. Seems like a lot of trouble for a luxury. But then I'm a pragmatist.

[mainer]

100. sorry, linked my message to the wrong one!

didn't mean to argue with yours.

[Maru Kitteh]

188. Vegetarians almost always get MUCH MORE iron in their diets

than meat eaters do. I know the USDA and the slaughter industries have done a good job of selling that little myth - along with the protein myth and the calcium myth - but the FACT is vegetarians have on average a greater iron intake.

I don't have a Utopian idea of primitive humans, man or otherwise. I don't think they were hunting pears and cabbages with those spear points. But the truth of the matter is the ancient diet was much heavier in plant foods than the predominantly male anthropologists have by and large depicted. This can be chalked up to quite a few things.

1.) Who wants to spend what little spare time you have depicting a glorious turnip harvest on your cave wall? Wow Bob! That's quite a tuber you've got there!
2.) Killed and eaten animals leave behind hard evidence. Vegetables and plant matter eaten leave behind soft poop sticks.
3.) Predominantly male anthropologists have a rather notable habit of living out their ideal macho cave man fantasy through their work. Mostly their scenario reads like a good right wing conservatives guide to better living. Kill lots of animals, kill your neighbor, drag the little missus home by the hair and then ignore her while you go forth to conquer the world. As less testosterone driven research is being done, a much different understanding of early hominid life is emerging. Along with primitive man, some actually consider primitive woman too.

[htuttle]

87. Yes, I'm aware of that

But humans stopped evolving, and our brains stopped growing, long before anything like what you'd call 'culture' came around. The biggest difference between modern humans and Cro-Magnon is software, not hardware.

We couldn't have gotten to where we are without eating meat (a mixed blessing if you ask me), but you don't get any smarter by eating more meat. I think meat eating in modern humans has much more effect on aggression than intelligence.

[Pacifist Patriot]

90. With all of the crap being pumped into the animals...

pollution, antibiotics, hormones, etc. there is no telling what it is doing to us. I wish I could give up seafood and dairy products but I'm not there yet. I do try to buy as much organic/vegetarian dairy as I can but damn it gets expensive. I don't compromise on milk and eggs though. The thought of hens eating chopped up chickens for their feed is repugnant to me. I'll gladly pay triple for vegetarian non-medicated eggs.

Completely anecdotal and not in the least scientific, but I only got into organic dairy between my first and second child. My first is heavier and more aggressive than the second and third child who ate far less meat in their diet and organic eggs and milk. He has a shorter temper and a greater BMI than the other two. Have no clue if there is a relation or not. Could be personality I suppose.

[Pacifist Patriot]

73. Maybe we had to go through that "adolescent" carnivorous period...

to become enlightened vegetarians. ;)

[Jesus Saves]

77. One thing: I'm glad my eyes are facing foward

and not off to either side...

[Padraig18]

79. Nope.

Not one millisecond's worth...

[Jesus Saves]

85. Not even one nanosecond?

You're telling me that never, ever, in your entire life you sat back and pondered this?

I don't believe it. I just don't.

[Padraig18]

104. Not one nanosecond.

I'm a farm boy.

[Jesus Saves]

109. You never raised a calf for 4-H

and then have to let it go for slaughter and feel bad about it?

Nothing like that, ever?

[Padraig18]

121. What part of 'no' am I not making clear?

:shrug:

[Vektor]

130. I've gotta hand it to you, J.S.

I may not agree with you about the election fraud issue, but I commend and appreciate your compassion toward animals. I don't put down carnivores (my husband and pets are carnivores) but I enjoy someone who likes animals.

[adwon]

89. Once

I considered the inherent hypocrisy between pets and food animals once. Why are some ok to eat but some not? Why care about the life of one and not the other?

So, I considered the vegetarian course. Beyond the fact that I'm not a big fan of greenery, I tried to give it an honest evaluation. My problem was that I saw no difference between eating animals and eating plants. Both are alive. Plants may feel pain, I really have no idea whether or not they do. I can attest from observation that animals feel pain. I just don't see a moral difference between the killing of one and the killing of another. So, I decided that if I were to avoid any kind of killing, it would entail starvation. I decided, for myself not others, that the choice of what to eat is not a moral choice, but a practical choice.

This doesn't mean I'm a fan of 'anything goes' when it comes to food production. While I may not find the choice of food to be a moral matter, I do find how one treats the food before it gets to the plate to be a moral matter. It offends my personal sense of rightness for animals to be treated inhumanely, no matter their destination.

Anyway, this is just my thoughts. The perspective should be read as restricted to me, not as a guide for anyone else.

[Jesus Saves]

98. I think that's a thoughtful evaluation

I can see how you arrived at it. Let me just add though, animals have more awareness than plants. I think you can just straight up admit that without worry.

[mcscajun]

99. Nope...but I stopped eating eggs for a few years once upon a time.

Between freshman H.S. biology class and a little too much dwelling on the innocent white egg, I was revolted by the whole idea of eating them.

I got over it many years later. Never stopped eating meat, though.

There are times when I get tired of meat; and then I make a nice vegetarian dish. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

103. I like to eat P....

Oh, never mind.

[alittlelark]

105. I've made reservations to eat meat at a few great restaurants!

But seriously, I do have many reservations. I have had no corporate meat for 2-3 years. I buy meat only at Trader Joes and Dittmers.

I went vegetarian for almost a year once... it made me weak and lethargic ( and I did the Omega's and protiens ...). I've read that O-neg blood types are not good w/ vegetarian diets.

[Jesus Saves]

108. Is Trader Joe's a good place for meat?

It's a big chain, no?

[Warren DeMontague]

110. My experience with Trader Joes and meat has been spotty.

I think they're not so good for produce and meat, that kind of thing. Dried goods, juices, frozen stuff, they're great and very reasonably priced. I live on their bottled green tea. But my experiences with their meat have been, eh, middlin'.

[Jesus Saves]

112. There may be a lot of store to store variation

on this point...possibly...

[Vektor]

131. What happened, impeachdubya -

Was the meat and dairy of poor quality, or going bad? I like the store, but have never bought meat there.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. Never had any complaints about the dairy---

actually, their organic yogurt is great, and so is their milk.

The only time I bought a steak there for my wife,(I don't eat red meat anymore, myself) it just wasn't the best steak... They don't have a meat counter at this outlet, so it was one of those pre-packaged deals.. It just wasn't so great. Tough and maybe a day or two past it's prime. But where we live there are lots of options for free range, grass fed beef and the like (and not just from Whole Paycheck) and organic veggies, so usually TJ's isn't where I shop for that stuff.. Plus it seems to me like their selection of fresh produce is a little limited, too.

Certainly not enough data for a wholesale indictment of the chain (and in other respects I'm a big fan), it's just what I've noticed around here. Your mileage may vary.

[Vektor]

139. Thanks for the info

I'm in Northern CA, but I have to travel for my T.J.'s - usually I go to Berkeley at least one a month and stock up then. Are you in the bay area?

[Warren DeMontague]

141. I'm in Sonoma...

We've got a bunch of 'em around here.

Also, I don't know if all the outlets are carrying them yet, but the big glass bottles of green tea (just green tea, no sugar or HF Corn Syrup) are the shiznit. I live on that stuff.

[Jesus Saves]

150. Ahhh....Sonoma

Love that place. Is the Monterray Cheese Factory still there? And that place downtown that makes great french bread?

[Vektor]

175. I haven't tried that.

But it sounds GOOD!

[alittlelark]

119. TJ's is aan excellent place to get free-range, non-hormone

meat and dairy. I believe that is almost all they carry (?). They also have organic produce - when available.

[Maru Kitteh]

190. First the blood type thing is bunk and makes no sense whatsoever

if one just invests a little time to look at it with any scrutiny. As an O-negative bloodtype person (universal donors rock!!) I can tell you without at doubt that whole thing is just ridiculous.

If you were weak and lethargic it's likely you were not getting enough calories, or you were eating too much junk food. Protein is not a problem unless you are eating nothing but tater tots and chips, but it can be a little bit of a challenge occasionally for a person to get enough calories in the diet. Myself today for instance. I went too heavy on the raw fruits and veggies and ended up with only 684 calories which is nowhere near enough so I'm going to have some homemade chocolate bread with peanut butter before bedtime.

[Redstone]

113. If God hadn't wanted us to eat animals.

Why did he make them out of meat?

Redstone

[phylny]

117. The only meat that I will not eat anymore is veal.

I have no problem eating pork, chicken, or beef. But I can't do veal anymore - not knowing how horribly the calves are mistreated.

I don't like any seafood, and even if I did like it, I'd stop eating it due to concerns regarding mercury. I have advised my daughters to stop eating seafood until after they're finished having children.

Once upon a time we got our beef from a farm near Lancaster, PA. It was delicious and the animals were raised without crap, and were slaughtered quickly. I should look around here for the same type of operation.

[flvegan]

120. Veal calves are horribly mistreated, you are correct.

I think that it's a wonderful initiative to not support such an industry. Sadly, the veal industry is more driven by the dairy industry than the demand for veal. Every glass of milk or slice of cheese is an infant calf in a veal crate. Sorry.

Additionally, chickens are the most miserably treated animals on this planet. The abuse is beyond what normal folks could comprehend.

Google "battery hen" and see where eggs come from. Chickens raised for meat...well, you can check farmsanctuary.org for info on that topic.

I do respect and applaud your taking veal off your menu. I also applaud your educating your children on the ills of mercury in the seafood they might ingest.

[achtung_circus]

123. Be aware

that there are two types of veal. White veal is the pale, raised in a crate type and fed a low iron diet. I will not eat it either.

Pink veal is the meat of dairy bull calves, raised in group housing, often outside and in a much friendlier fashion than white veal. The only difference from beef is the weight at slaughter. Beef is typically slaughtered at 1200-1300 lbs live weight. Pink veal is slaughtered at a maximum of 750 lbs.

Generalizations are easy but often wrong.

[tammywammy]

171. Thanks for the info on veal

I won't eat veal or Kobe beef. I tried veal once, wasn't impressed, and felt a little sick from eating it (the whole baby cow thing).

[RebelOne]

144. I am a vegetarian now, but even in my meat-eating days

I would not eat veal because of the horrible conditions those poor animals are forced to endure.

[Vektor]

122. I do...

I usually eat a an/ova-lacto veggie diet with occasional shrimp, and the like. I do have some moral reservations about meat eating, but mostly, I don't like it. I've never liked much red meat or pork, and only have ever enjoyed poultry periodically, though much less so in adulthood than as a kid. I also enjoy the health benefits of eating less meat.

FWIW, I could never kill anything. I even pick up spiders and put them outside, so it doesn't get any more cheese-ball than me.

So yeah, I guess you could say I'm not 100% comfortable with it, though I understand others enjoy it, and I don't get all over them for it.

[YankeyMCC]

124. nope

[Vadem]

126. I stopped eating beef when the gov't announced the first mad...

cow case....I don't remember what year that was! I feel that they are lying to us about the mad cow problem. I upped my consumption of pork and chicken--my doctor tells me that pork is very high in colestroeol.

[Maru Kitteh]

192. Beef and chicken (even white skinless) are equal in cholesterol

Pig flesh is higher in cholesterol than both of them. Chickens are also fed the rendered bodies of cows too sick for the human food chain including downer cows. The prion which causes disease cannot be cooked, bleached or irradiated out of flesh. You are very wise to be wary of the governments forthcomingness when it comes to mad cow.

Some links

It's the cow feed stupid!

Here is a very short articlefrom a former USDA meat inspector who was among the first to blow the whistle about mad cow.

" For each carcass, says Friedlander, inspectors are allowed only 15 seconds of inspection. Friedlander witnessed cow carcass abscesses bursting over meat that was then hosed off, wrapped up and shipped to the consumer. He encountered supervisors who were more concerned with falsifying inspection documents than protecting consumers from possible cow cancer. Just two weeks ago, he says, a cow in Texas with symptoms of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy was sent straight to the rendering plant without testing. "

[enigmatic]

127. No

[shockra]

133. Macrobiotics...

Describes in great detail the effects of different types of diets on your body, mind, emotions and spirit.

Meat is considered to promote aggression and the people who need it in the largest amounts are said to be those who do hard physical labor, because it gives quick bursts of energy, short therm. No or very little meat is supposed to foster a spiritual outlook.

A low meat diet is best for intellectual agility, also. I found this out for myself long before I ever read about macrobiotics. I gave up red meat for over three years and found my mental quickness and ability definitely kept increasing. Meat bogs you down, both physically and mentally. I also felt more emotionally stable, with less moodswings and less blood sugar swings.

For best results I've read you should gradually phase out all red meat for a few years, then poultry as well for a few years after that, then fish and dairy products if you're so inclined. A no meat diet all of the sudden is too big of a shock to the system that's been used to daily animal products.

I wouldn't advise a strict macrobiotic diet (of only grains, for instance), but there's a lot of wisdom to be found about the best way to eat for your individual needs, and how to be more ethically responsible.

For those of a feminist bent, The Sexual Politics of Meat is an interesting book. And apparently not *too* obscure because I found it in my local library. I'd never thought of animal slaughter as a feminist issue until I read this book, and expected it to be pretty over the top, but I'm glad I read it because it gave me some understanding of where this issue lies on the political spectrum.

I'd also never really thought about the fact that it is primarily female animals that are slaughtered for food, and products of female animals (eggs, milk, cheese, yogurt) that are used.

I gave up meat the first time after having a bizarre violent dream about a cow. Many vegetarians think that when you eat meat, you absorb the pain of the dying animal. This was my instinct when I starting having these nightmares, and my impulse was to stop eating them! I only found out years later that others had had the same type of experience, so I wasn't completely nuts.

[malta blue]

173. is this fooligh or what?

I was once told that a macrobiotic diet was a diet based upon what foods were indigenous the region one hailed from.

[BikeWriter]

138. Still eating raw steak. ;-)

[Celeborn Skywalker]

140. About eating factory farmed meat, yes.

I have no problem eating meat that was raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion,like on a farm or large ranch but the factory farms are too cruel for me to support.

[The Stranger]

143. Humans are not carnivorus, but omnivorous.

This is flame bait and should have been deleted hours ago.

Humans can, apparently, be imbeciles though.

[Merope215]

148. Doesn't look that way to me

About the flame bait, I mean. Almost 150 posts, and not one deleted. Pretty good for a meat thread on GD, I'd have to say. :hi:

[IrateCitizen]

145. I grew up seeing what I was going to eat while it was alive...

My grandparents raised about 35 head of beef cattle. Each year, they'd have one slaughtered, and split the beef with my parents. We also raised chickens every year with them, and one early morning in late summer we'd get up at the crack of dawn and lop their heads off and pluck their feathers.

I grew up realizing that every time I ate meat, I was eating a living animal. Personally, I think it's something EVERYONE should experience -- it gives you a greater appreciation of where your food really comes from.

My main concern with eating meat know is ecological -- the planet simply cannot handle the production methods necessary for the kind of diet we've come to expect as "normal". I will always eat meat, but I just try and eat much less of it now.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

146. I was a vegetarian for many years

but because I travel a lot for work, I began eating chicken again out of convenience. I rarely eat beef, I gave up eating pork, and pretty much just eat poultry and fish.

I buy my meat at Whole Foods, where all their meat is free-range and hormone-free. I used to think this kind of mea was more expensive, but where I live, the regular grocery store meats are comparable in price.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

147. I'm not sure that there's much virtue in being a pesco-vegetarian

from an environmental point of view because so many species are seriously overfished these days.

(I've never liked fish or shellfish much, but I like good-quality meat and prefer to buy it from outlets that sell meat from animals that were raised on grass and grain and treated humanely.)

[Jesus Saves]

149. That's true

but I was speaking more from how even in an ideal world eating some meat could give rise to doubts.

Raising cows isn't exactly environmentally pure, no?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

154. No, but at least

they're in no danger of extinction! :-)

[Benson]

153. I've Consumed Many Animals...Even Dolphin! No Regrets.

I've traveled and seen a lot of places. I may have been served dog, but I'm not sure-had a problem understanding my hosts (they just said, "Good for you").

Animals have been harvest by humans for thousands of years.
If they taste good, I'll eat them. Cute animals always seen to taste better for some reason.

No, no regrets.

[Jesus Saves]

159. If it tastes good

eat it?

You're a culinary/gastronomical hippie.

[Benson]

162. Its a celebration of human cullinary diversity...I have eaten Rattelsnake!

I have yet to eat Rocky Mountain oysters, but I WILL eat them one day!
Humans are omnivores. We can eat most anything!
Every culture has something to contribute to the human table.

One of my favorite things to do when traveling is to shun the tourist restaraunts and try the real local food.

[Jesus Saves]

164. I've been to the Rocky Mountain Oyster festival

Outside of Missoula, Montana. I never got around to trying any though.

I've heard rattlesnake is good, that it literally tastes like chicken.

But dolphin? Come on now, who eats dolphin.

[Benson]

167. You won't get in the touristy places

South seas islanders will kill and eat dolphins, and serve them to freinds. Native Americans in the NW pacific coast will eat them as well.
I ate mine in Alaska. Make friends, visit them at home, and you might get some too.

[Jesus Saves]

169. Actually I'm not surprised in the least that people eat dolphin

I'm pretty sure I've read it before.

I'd probably try it, if it was offered. I don't know if I could hunt a dolphin though. I've hunted deer, antelope and lots of birds, but I don't think I could kill a dolphin. They're too complex a creature, too intelligent, it would be tough.

I don't think it could ever be a regular component of my diet.

[Runcible Spoon]

180. you ate dolphin?

that's fucking sick. What's next, $50,000 safari to go eat some mountain gorillas?

[BBradley]

194. Where do I sign up?

[Runcible Spoon]

195. sick fucker.

i don't even care if this comment gets deleted. alert away.

[Radical Activist]

196. The animals won't regret it either

when you die an early death and live a less healthy life due to your eating habits. I guess you could call that Karma.

[Runcible Spoon]

197. I hope the next creature he eats poisons him.

it would be what he deserves! Hey asshole, next stop Japanese blowfish. I'll make sure the fugu chef is nice and drunk when he forgets to cut out the liver.

[jeffrey_X]

156. my meat intake has been reduced by 75% over the last 3 years.

No red meat. Rarely eat pork. Mostly chicken, seafood and fish.

[DemExpat]

163. Ours here too, jeffrey,

I won't eat mammals anymore since a year or two ago.

Eating more beans and soy products and about 3x a week poultry and fish.

DemEx

[Hell Hath No Fury]

157. If you don't you should....

Howard Lyman is a fourth generation cattle farmer who has helped blow the lid off the health dangers posed by modern cattle farming.

I stopped eating meat along time ago, but what I read on his site made me even more grateful I made that change.

The most shocking thing I read was the primary fattening agents for cattle on many farms is -- wait for it -- chicken shit.

http://www.madcowboy.com

[kiahzero]

158. Nope

Not only is meat tasty, it's one of the few things I am able to eat without my intestines acting up.

[Stuckinthebush]

161. Serious reservations

But the fact that animals are playful and thinking is secondary to the the very real fact that meat is just plain bad for us. The consumption of meat is linked to numerous health problems, so I must question the practice of eating meat from a health standpoint first.

[Catchawave]

165. Whole Foods Market

If you're lucky to live near one, has organic and free range meats, which is much more humane and healthier for you.


http://www.wholefoods.com/

[davekriss]

166. Yes

Partly out of compassion.

I recall an epiphany a few years ago when reading Dennett's Consciousness Explained. In it he was making the case that if we were able to build a machine with the same networked and chemical-message complexity as a human brain it would from all outward appearances be "conscious"; he speculates further that its inward experience would duplicate our own.

Holding that as true for a moment I realized then that there is nothing special about our consciousness -- it is not biology infused with special spirit or soul -- and that the animals around me, with brains of varied complexity, might have a subjective interiority of some sort too. Then for me the killer: Every creature around me, man and animal -- they sense, feel, die just like every one of us.

These speculations reinforced a feeling of connectedness and kinship I've always had with all life: The life in me is the same as the life in you, "davekriss" is something It does here and "Jesus Saves" is something It is doing over there. Hurting you, or any sentient creature, is in a real sense hurting myself as we are the same life. Killing meat to eat is hurting life. It is cruel. It is a choice.

Second, I understand that eating vegetarian decreases the ecological footprint required to support the ever-becoming process seen here as "davekriss". With each link in the foodchain energy is lost; inefficient transmission of energy from node to node means, traced back to the ultimate source (green plants that have captured the energy of the sun), eating meat is wasteful and selfish when alternatives are available.

Life is all about choices. Many of the wishes I hold for the world will not (likely) be realized in my lifetime, if ever -- e.g., social and economic justice, equitable sharing amongst peoples worldwide, an end to violence and war. However I choose to move myself toward these goals in ways available to me. Like eating up the food chain to lessen and lighten my footprint. By marching against injustice. By contributing money to others working on issues I share. By being ever vocal in my commitments. Lately I'm exploring more and more how to unhook myself and my family from the wasteful consumption cycle of modern urban capitalism and looking to connect with a community that holds predominantly local production as a goal.

But, hey, that's just me; I really think everyone else is free to make different decisions without condemnation of any sort. Reminds me of the gods of the east where death and destruction are underfoot while one hand is always held up as if to say, see, nothing is really happening here, nothing that must be done. Energy is eternal delight (Blake) and all will play itself out in an eternal dance without consequences except for the ever ringing delight and joy available to us all. Peace, all!

[Jesus Saves]

168. Would you admit there is a continuum of consciousness?

A fish has less of it than a cow, for instance.

[davekriss]

170. Of course (nt)

[davekriss]

181. Coupla' things

One, I'm not overly comfortable when we say "less of it". I'd speculate (because speculation is all it would be) the difference is primarily qualitative, not necessarily quantitative. I think awareness is simply "on" or "off", but the richness of sensual content varies according to the equipment.

Second, if what you intend to accomplish is that there is a thereshold of difference between our consiousness and that of some of the animal kingdom and, therefore, we should all feel free to eat some of them (those below the threshold), let me head you off and say yes, that is a reasonable position.

My empathy for other creatures, it is in one sense sentimental. The universe, life here on earth, evolved on this principle: Animals kill and eat in order to live. Diabolical, ain't it? (Just another chord in the symphony of existence, part of "energy is eternal delight" and not something that should nor can be stamped out.)

On this count, there is no moral imperative to not eat meat. It is a choice. Like perhaps choosing not to shout when angry, or to paint one's house a cheerful blue, or to make sure we make our peace with whomever we may be in strife with before the sun goes down.

However, on the issue of ecological footprint, I think there is utility in eating less meat. "Cease to do evil; try to do good," goes the Buddhist imperative. If the greater lot of us would live simply to the first part of this imperative, there'd be a lot less need for the second. One of the few things I can impact in my life is the ecological burden of my footprint. Simple things. Like using paper bags instead of plastic at the supermarket; buying a Cooper instead of an SUV; walking instead of driving; living in a smaller house not kept at 72 degrees year round; eating up the food chain as much as possible. Living (to the degree I'm capable) according to these words,

Practically speaking, a life that is vowed to simplicity, appropriate boldness, good humor, gratitude, unstinting work and play, and lots of walking brings us close to the actual existing world and its wholeness.
--- Gary Snyder

I recall a pop psychologist/philosopher from around 20 years ago making the rounds on PBS, a Bugalowski or something, who said as soon as someone says to himself, what can I do to change the world?, they are paralyzed into inaction and ineffectiveness; but if that same person would ask, what can I do to impact my immediate surroundings -- my house, my style of living, the quality of my relations with the people around me -- I then can at least have some impact on the space within which I live. Mindfulness and awareness help me achieve some impact, and choice. The world is really quite simple, and can be very sad. I try through mindfulness and awareness not to contribute to the sadness.

Last, don't let me mislead; I am not a strict vegetarian. I eat eggs, cheese regularly; I'll eat fish and chicken, even beef occassionally. Unfortunately my wife and kids have not followed me in my conviction, but I'm workin' on them! Meanwhile may everyone on this board enjoy once a rack of lamb done to perfection; with roasted potatoes done with olive oil, garlic, and fresh rosemary; brussel sprouts in sesame seeds and butter; a still steaming baked bread on the side, along with a creamy brie or brisk appenzeller, and a mature Bordeaux; all to be followed by a rich vintage Port and chocolate souffle! Now I'm hungry (gotta' go!!).

[Jesus Saves]

186. Well said

thanks for that thoughtful reply. All other issues aside, the ecological footprint aspect of eating meat is a reason to eat less of it.

[tammywammy]

172. Not really

I like meat. I like chicken, beef, pork, lamb, seafood, etc. The only things I won't eat are veal and Kobe beef. I also won't eat goose pate either.

I like my veggies too, but I won't give up my meat.

Edit to add: Before I moved back home, I used to only buy organic meat and dairy products. But, since I'm home, I don't pay for the food, so I can't demand that my parents buy anything specific.

[ArkDem]

185. I prefer the synthetic meats.

[tammywammy]

187. "synthetic meats"?

Is that like imitation crab meat?

[ArkDem]

199. The opposite of 'organic meats', I guess.

[ComerPerro]

174. Sometimes I wonder about where it comes from

I worry that meat that was processed by a large corporation may not have been handled in the most responsible, clean, and healthy manner.

But do I worry about the fact that an animal died and I am now eating it?

No. Not at all.

[KansDem]

179. Not as many as I've had about drinking cheap wine.

Usually the next morning...

[lonestarnot]

191. Maybe until I get the fork to my mouth...

[Jesus Saves]

193. then

you start crying...eh?

[shockra]

198. Ayurveda

For another point of view on diet -- Ayurveda is a 5,000 year old system of self-healing which describes three qualities of nature, "gunas" (Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas) and three different kinds of diet to promote each.

Excerpts from: http://www.sunandmoonstudio.com/ayurvedicstud.html

1) Sattva is intelligence and offers balance. It provides clarity, luminosity, happiness, and contentment. Sattva is the balance of the other two gunas. The mind is naturally sattvic, but it changes due to our experiences, emotions, and thoughts. Sattvic people have balance and peace of mind. They look for the good in things, take care of themselves, and are compassionate to others. Diseases are uncommon in sattvic people because they take care of their physical bodies and have peace of mind.

Sattvic foods are fresh and dried fruits and berries, pure fruit juices, raw or lightly cooked vegetables, salads, grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, whole-grain breads, honey, fresh herbs, herbal teas, and dairy products of milk and butter.

2) Rajas is energy and causes imbalance. It is outward motion, desire, and action that causes pain, suffering, and distress. Rajasic types of people are opinionated, impatient, and blame others for their problems. A "type A", aggressive person is a rajasic type who is afflicted with stress-related diseases which heal slowly. This long time to heal is due to the rajasic nature of being impatient and not taking the time to recover from illness.

Rajasic foods include onions, garlic, coffee, tea, tobacco, refined sugar, soft drinks, and chocolate.

3) Tamas is substance and creates inertia, obscurity, laziness, heaviness, and slowness. It causes decay and obstruction. Tamasic people are stagnant, do not take responsibility for themselves, and do not take care of their bodies. This can lead to chronic illnesses.

Foods of tamas qualities are meat, fish, eggs, mushrooms, drugs, and alcohol.

Rajas and tamas work together. Rajas gives us too much motion which in turn leads to us becoming lazy, or tamasic.

By changing our diets to eat more sattvic foods and fewer tamasic and rajasic foods, we can calm our minds and sharpen the intellect; increase life, purity, strength, health, joy, and cheer. These foods are soothing, nourishing, and full of Prana. A sattvic diet also includes balancing the tastes of sweet, salty, sour, pungent, bitter, and astringent.

http://www.sunandmoonstudio.com/ayurvedicstud.html

[theboss]

200. Maybe if cows were cuter...

But they're not. So fuck 'em.