I just got it

[linazelle]

Heard Randi explain to another caller why preventing gay marriage is discriminatory and illegal. I, like most people, have the biblical understanding of marriage mixed with the state's legal performance of marriage.

It makes sense to me now that marriage does not have to have any religious aspects at all. It is a CIVIL union. It can only be done with the sanction of the state. It can only be broken with the sanction of the state. The fact that clergymen preside over marriages does not give the church the power to sanction marriage. A denomination may denounce gay marriage but that has nothing to do with legality.

Randi was a bit exasperated explaining this saying she's done it a million times. I hadn't heard it that way before--that the state cannot discriminate against any group of people and that marriage is a state function.

I'm sure millions haven't heard this either. It just goes to show how much education and discourse are needed to bring the public up to snuff.

[CornField]

1. Short way to explain it -- confusion of religious rites with civil rights.

[shoelace414]

2. It's not Gay Marriage

It's Gay Marriage benefits

[htuttle]

3. My first marriage was in a courthouse

I know a whole number of people who were married in a courthouse, as a matter of fact.

Just because no religion 'sanctified' it doesn't mean it wasn't valid.

[librechik]

18. exactly, the legal document (marriage license) is the legal document

not whatever words the preacher reads. Nowadays, in most places, if you marry in the curch you must also have the marriage license, which is what makes the marriage legal. The preacher's words are a ceremony with no validity (excepting common law) unless there is also the marriage license.

[Terran]

4. Right...and gay marriages have been taking place for many years

because liberal pastors and others have been willing to sanctify them for years. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the state's marriage functions.

[tsuki]

13. True. Good friends of mine are married, but they do not have the

protection of a civil contract governed by existing secular laws.

[meegbear]

5. Here's a good blurb on what it takes to get leaglly married

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_450a.html

[BlueEyedSon]

6. I was married in city hall by the mayor. You are missing the point that

there are a group of extremists who want US civil law to BE biblical law.... and not just regarding marriage.

[linazelle]

10. I didn't miss the point about the RW trying to mesh civil and biblical

law...it's a given. But thanks for the reminder since I assumed everybody knew that.

[MsTryska]

7. yes. i've long held the belief

that marriage is strictly a business enterprise.


tie all the romance you want to it, but when it comes down to it - when the credit reports merge, there's nothing romantic about it.

[Bridget Burke]

8. In some countries, civil & religious marriage ceremonies are separate.

Mexico & France come to mind--both countries that have seen serious religious unrest.

One goes to the registry office & signs the papers. Then, one goes to church/whatever for the religious ceremony. Finally, there's a party! Some people skip #2 but if they skip #1--they aren't married!

[Cleita]

9. Marriage is a legal contract, usually between two people,

but could be more to share their lives and economic assets with each other, this means the bad times as well as the good times if that what the contract states. Yes, most people tie romance to marriage, but it's not necessary. It's really about a partnership that has certain expectations of each partner. If one of the partners doesn't meet up to the obligations of the contract then it can be dissolved. It's really simple when you break it down to it's man made components.

[ArkDem]

11. >usually between two people

When it isn't between two people what is it?

[Cleita]

14. Polygamy.n/t

[ArkDem]

19. Whew, I was a little worried that we were getting into uncharted

territory.

[MADem]

12. In Italy, you HAVE to go to the registry office to marry

You go, you get the stamp, you sign the book, and AFTER you (can) go to the church for a "wedding" that is religious (much like Camilla and Chuckie). The Italians want their tax paid, and they are gonna get it! And the priests will not marry you without the paper from the registry, unless you got married secularly elsewhere; then you have to provide those marriage documents, plus parish permissions, plus baptismal certificates, all with certified translations, and then get the OK of the local bishop AND pay a fee (donation) to the church, and to the priest, and so on.

[tsuki]

17. Isn't that what we do here? You apply for a license, wait three days for

the blood and paperwork to come back, then have a ceremony, either religious or secular. The person who performed the ceremony signs and files with the state. In FL, it can be a notary.

[MADem]

23. The difference is, when you leave the Italian office

...you are married in the eyes of the state. If you want to be right with the church, you carry on and do the thing with them. But it is a religious accessory, not a requirement!

[tsuki]

24. Got it. Thanks.

[onecitizen]

15. Was that you today

that called her show and said what you just said? If it was you, you were great. I'm too chicken to call Randi. She scares me :-)

[linazelle]

16. Nope I heard the caller too--it wasn't me. n/t

[seabeyond]

20. we were married in courthouse, told husband, i will give up title

of marriage and have a civil union with him. i dont need the word marriage. the right wants that word, they can have, we will with honor be in civil union.

those that want to be wed in church can follow church doctrine

[TahitiNut]

21. "Marriage" is and always has been about PROPERTY and ...

... ENTITLEMENTS. One such 'entitlement' (a government-granted authority) is the authority to speak on another's behalf when they're unable to speak for themselves, much as a parent may speak for a child. (In this, I use "speak" in a legal sense of "make choices.")

Under the woman-as-chattel tradition, she was a kind of property DEEDED to a male ("husband") by another male ("father") along with a payment ("dowery") for taking on the responsibility and expense of "husbandry".

The overwhelming reason churches even became involved was political power - the inheritance of TITLES (entitlement) in monarchical systems. The whole romantic notion of marriage as something "sacred" is a recent myth. Adultery was a PROPERTY crime - violation of an entitlement.

[fob]

22. Marriage is actually a 3-way agreement, You, Your Spouse and the

State.