Experiment regarding the handcuffing of 5-year old

[entanglement]

To figure out for myself how important the role of race was in the handcuffing episode, I repeated the story to a dozen (White) acquaintances (who had presumably not heard anything about the incident). To half (group I), I did not mention the child's race while telling the story (used 'little girl'); to the other half (group II), I mentioned that she was black. Here are the results

group I
1 persons thought the handcuffing was ok
5 persons thought the handcuffing was unnecessary

group II
4 persons thought the handcuffing was ok
2 persons thought the handcuffing was unnecessary

I know I didn't ask nearly enough people, but I am quite disturbed, to say the least :shrug:

[chalky]

1. Reminds me of the Barbie Science Fair Project

in which one third-grader freaked out the Boulder Valley School district enough with her results on race relations that they yanked her entry back in 2000. Check it out:

http://www.barbiesciencefair.info/

[Is It Fascism Yet]

2. Ugh! Handcuffing ANY 5 yr olds is merely an activity of uniformed thugs!

[Djinn]

3. I wouldn't be too disturbed about it

as you stated it was hardly a representative sample and you said you presumed the people you asked knew nothing of the story, also you're comparing different sets of people not the same people's attitudes to a different situation so that skews it too.

[WearyOne]

4. I think you every right to be very very disturbed

think back 20 years ago and if you heard this story : kids of any age being handcuffed.

This has to be the most frightening aspect of authority out of control I've heard for some time.

The fact you say a lot had not even heard the story yet shows how far down the road we have come. Scary business..very scary

How long do you think before Bush & Co start to prevent people from suing over these type of things.?

If you aren't fighting New Fascism you are quietly accepting it.

[Djinn]

10. 20 years ago the teachers would have been able

to forcibly restrain her themselves, these days if they'd picked up they child they could be sued, if they'd let her continue her tantrum and she hurt others, the school could be sued, if she'd hurt herself the school could have been sued.

I don't think this has anything to do with "new facism" and everything to do with a highly litigious culture.

[entanglement]

21. I was discussing the actions of the cops who handcuffed the child

not the teachers who were probably 'playing it safe' and called the cops in.

[Djinn]

25. so what should the cops have done?

I keep seeing people state that the cops should have just restrained her - WTF are handcuffs if not restraints?

[librechik]

35. I wonder if anybody tried to actually connect & TALK to this child

there are ways to deal with pre-school tantrums, "time out" being one.

However, if people are brought up to believe that violence is a natural solution, that is what they will choose. I saw tape of the teacher dealing with the child before the cops came--they were both throwing childish, pre-violent tantrums,IMO. You can't stop a tantrum with another tantrum (believe me, I have tried) It just escalates, as obviously happened in this case.

Teachers need to be trained on how to defuse violence (apparently.) THEY are the grownups: show it!

[Zookeeper]

83. That's what I thought when I watched a longer version...

of the video. The teachers were admirably cool and calm, but very impersonal and pretty robotic with their "make good choices" spiel.

I've seen kids throw far worse tantrums. That little girl seemed desperate for SOMEONE to actually connect with her in a personal and caring way.

I realize the teachers are probably exhausted and lacking in resources and support, but children shouldn't have to suffer because they live in a community (or state) where voters are too stupid and selfish to adequately fund their schools and social services.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. 20 years ago

We didn't have as many crack babies, the number of kids with fetal alcohol syndrome was much smaller and we had fewer single parents raising kids.

Is anyone else wondering if this little girl has a father and where he is? Her mother is obviously overwhelmed.

[wakeme2008]

5. Bull

anybody that watched both videos would have seen and out of control BRAT that was

1) Trashing a classroom

2) Trashing a AP office.

3) Punching at a teacher

4) Trying to bite a teacher

5) Kicking a Police Officer

6) Only sat down the second she saw the Police arriving.

7) Was told by one Police Officer "I told you LAST TIME if we had to come AGAIN we would cuff you".

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.....

[hfojvt]

6. we were just talking about that at work

one of my black co-workers had seen the whole video and had no doubt that the kid should have been cuffed. We all agreed that in our day, our ages range from 32 - 50, a kid doing that would have been smacked by the principal instead of even involving the police. One added, "then we would have gotten smacked again when we got home." Ah, the good old days, but my dad was more of the lecture type.

[wakeme2008]

8. Right and Florida is one of those

hands off the students places. And somewhere in the write up or on TV there was a remark that because of budget reasons, that level school has to share an Resource Officer with another school, and their Officer was tied up with another problem at their other school.

[Dogmudgeon]

9. Are you kidding?

In Florida, "reasonable force" is anything the teacher decides it is. "Paddling" (beating) students is still very common in Florida. If you add handcuffs to this, it becomes bondage and discipline.

If Michael Jackson was accused of this, there would be half a dozen 300-message-long posts calling for burning at the stake -- and a crowd-pleasing prison rape.

A five year old girl had a freak-out. It happens occasionally. Who knows, maybe she was molested.

We live in the "No Excuses" age, at least when it comes to people who are subject to the authority of others. Why should we accept excuses for child abuse?

--p!

[wakeme2008]

11. the BRAT knew to sit down the second the Police

showed up.

And what part of the Officer saying "I told you LAST TIME if we had to come AGAIN you would be cuffed" didn't you understand..

[Speed8098]

12. "I told you LAST TIME"

So just because a cop say's it, it becomes gospel????

I don't think so.

Look, BRAT or not, the cops should NEVER be allowed to HANDCUFF a 5YEAR OLD.
That is just absurd. If you can't subdue a 5 year old without hurting them or cuffing them, you shouldn't be a cop OR A GRADE SCHOOL TEACHER.

SHE WAS 5 for gosh sakes.

Anyone who advocates this kind of behavior from a cop needs their freaking head examined.

[wakeme2008]

13. she knew to sit down when she saw the cops coming

in the case, the police and teachers did right. The Police would not have had to come the second time if the mother had taken action. She did not and three police were called off the street to handle this BRAT.

[cmd]

16. Absolutely correct

To all you good hearted DUers who think that the teacher, administrator, police went overboard; I would love to see you spend days, weeks and years on end working with average five year olds. Your patience would be worn out by the end of one day. You would not return for another round of what you would consider adult abuse.

[LWolf]

22. I can subdue a 5-year-old easily,

without resorting to cuffs or to paddles. I do it when necessary with my grandson.

I wouldn't use any kind of physical restraint against someone else's 5 year-old in my public school classroom; that could easily be a career-ending lawsuit.

It's not that a teacher CAN'T; it's that it is professional, and possibly financial, suicide to do so. If you don't "get" that, you probably don't work with other people's kids in the public sector.

As far as the choice to use cuffs...I don't know enough about standard law enforcement procedures to judge. I'm thinking that officers are taught methods of restraint, and use those that they are allowed to use, because other methods may land them in the same place; professional or financial suicide.

In the end, I can't pass judgement either way; it's just not that simple an issue, no matter what side you are standing on. I don't have answers; I'm just left with questions:

Was the little girl hurt or injured in any way?
Would anyone have been hurt or injured if she had not been restrained?
What are the legal limits to physical restraint, and what are legally recogized "methods" that could have been used instead of cuffs?
Should the parents be financially liable for any personal or property damage resulting from the tantrum?
Does the school district/school have a counselor, and has the little girl been offered sessions? Should this be a school district responsibility?
Should the parents be offered, or be required to take, parenting classes to teach their child how to manage anger appropriately? Should parenting classes/training be offered to any who need it, and who should be responsible for providing those classes?

How can we protect teachers and other authority figures from lawsuits, and give them the flexibility they need to manage such a situation more appropriately, while still protecting the rights of children and families?

[proud2BlibKansan]

And what should the cops have done?

Give her a lollipop?

[Dogmudgeon]

14. That's a lot of anger realtive to the child's "crime"

All of this bile, over a hysterical child who has been handcuffed?

I'll never understand the aggression and hatred some people have for children, whether they are "professionals" in law enforcement or education or anything else.

And by the way, what part of "no personal attacks" didn't YOU understand?

--p!

[QC]

20. Tell us about your experience with teaching "difficult children."

This should be interesting.

[Dogmudgeon]

24. How about mentally retarded children?

... as well as behaviorally-"challenged" children and adults with organic brain damage of various kinds?

It IS interesting.

I would take the time to relate some of my experiences to you, but I suspect you're too wrapped up in your own anger to listen to anyone effectively. And I am close to that magic "line" for removing posts.

Enjoy your hate-the-children party.

--p!

[Djinn]

26. get over yourself

what has "hate-the-children" got to do with anything?

EVERYONE who thinks the cops/teachers should have just "restrained" the child seems to be missing the rather obvious fact that that's EXACTLY what they did, why on earth would holding the child in a bear hug type embrace be any less "abusive" for that child than having her wrists cuffed.

[Dogmudgeon]

38. The clichés are flying fast and thick today

So, are the kid-haters -- I'm sorry, that's the "education professionals who advocate proactive intervention in the context of deliberate juvenile deviance" -- saying that using uniformed and armed law-enforcement personnel with a 5-year-old is a better solution than using behavioral specialists?

Wait, wait, I forgot: this incident took place in Florida. They don't have the budget to deal with children's problems in a professional manner in Florida. They rely on cops and paddles and Ritalin instead of decades of clinical and classroom experience. They have to save that money to finance their election scams.

They rage over the kids. They rage over people who disagree with their rage-driven approach. There are more than just little kids with anger-management issues.

But what do I know? I only took care of "mental patients", not those hard-core dangerous five-year-olds. And, since I obviously disagree with the practice of calling in the uniforms, I must be "under myself" and need to get "over myself".

Yeah. That's the ticket.

--p!

[fortyfeetunder]

43. You probably have a point.

(I think I am going to don my Nomex message suit because I have been in this predicament with my own child, and I had a totally different approach to this situation. -- and I got flamed a few times)

This is one angry 5 year old. I seriously believe there were some undiagnosed behavioral issues that should have been addressed by a mental health professional.

I can't believe that school was so poor that they could not have taken that kid to an area with no furniture or removable fixtures and dealt with her in an age-appropriate way. And there was no possible way a mental health professional could have been paged, or brought in by ambulance to deal with this situation. But they can call in the cops!

What clued me in was the video. They sent the other 30 kids out of the room, leaving the child free to upset the classroom...Then took her into the AP's office (where there is also a hidden video camera) where she started removing things from walls.

The big question came to mind: didn't the administration think one video was enough evidence? Why was the child taken into a second office where she could upset more things? Just to get another video of an angry child? This doesn't compute.

There is blame to go around: trouble is, who will accept responsibility for this?

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. You don't work in a school, do you?

I do and we do NOT have padded rooms for kids like this to throw tantrums. We also don't have mental health professionals on call to come help kids when they tantrum. We have such severe teacher shortages and budget crises that we have classrooms with 35 to 40 kids and ONE teacher. Do you honestly believe school districts can afford to have a shrink on retainer??

Bottom line - it is the PARENT"S RESPONSIBILITY to get help for their own kids when they are as seriously disturbed as this 5 year old. This mother knew her child was having serious behavior problems. She herself had called the cops before for help with this little girl. But when she goes bonkers at school and the school calls the cops, they are all of a sudden the bad guys here?

This mother, by seeking publicity and hiring an attorney, is once again ignoring her responsibility as a parent. Blame the school, let the public see that videotape, sue, sue, sue!! Getting help for her child is the last thing this mother is willing to do. That is the really sad part of this story, IMO.

[fortyfeetunder]

51. I don't work at a school, but I volunteer at one.

I also work with my child's teachers and staff whenever there is a problem from the perspective we are a team.

I think my kid's school district is fortunate we have behavioral health specialists at selected schools, and I took advantage of that service once for my child. And I found non-profit agencies that also gave me parental education and guidance to help me with my child's situation. And I paid out of pocket for behavioral health services.

So I know what are the possibilities.

I agree with you it was the parent's responsibility. That mom didn't know what potential resources were available that she can afford, only that she could call the cops when her kid was misbehaving, and they are free. I can only hope these services are made available for this child because she and her mother desperately need it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. We also don't know if the school had referred mom

to community resources or recommended that she get help for her child. I would suspect they had. Most school don't just ignore these problems. In my school we have a social worker and a counselor who help parents find help for their kids.

I have a funny feeling this is a mother in denial and her kid's tantrum was a wake up call. Too bad she chose the get a lawyer and get publicity route instead of directing her energies at finding therapy for her seriously disturbed child.

[fortyfeetunder]

54. Also realize we haven't heard the whole story

The story said the mother had called the cops on the child when she was 3 years old and misbehaving.

We don't know if parent ever sought help through social services or behavioral health. I know some people have reservations about seeking mental health services because of the stigma attached to such treatment. We don't know if the parent sought that help or declined to pursue them.

Past this point, I think it's making assumptions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. All of these kid mistreated at school stories are like that

We are hearing the parent's version of events because the parent has gone to the media to get sympathy for her child. The school cannot give their side of the story due to privacy laws.

And we never hear how the story ends.

About 15 years ago, a 5 year old kid at a school where I was teaching was left on the bus. The driver found him when he got back to the bus lot. The kid refused to tell the driver his name and didn't know his address. The driver called the cops, the media got involved and all over the news was the headline 'Kid left on bus'.

Mom sued. The bus driver got fired. All bus drivers in the state are now required to check their buses for stray kids when they finish their runs every day. (Like they weren't already doing that?)

The part of the story that wasn't told - when the driver found the kid, he was on the floor under the seat. First thing out of the kid's mouth was 'My mom told me to hide'.

This kid went to my school for several years. His mom was a pain. She complained about everything and even threatened to sue a couple times. There is no doubt in my mind that this mother told her kid to hide on that bus. But a bus driver got fired, our school and school district got all kinds of negative publicity and the state lawmakers spent valuable time passing a silly law.

I think of this story every time I hear another of these kid mistreated at school stories. I believe we can safely assume we are NOT getting all the details.

[merh]

61. Of course, your version is the bus drivers version.

Just one side. If he was fired, I am sure he was afforded the right of appeal and could have had a full hearing on whether the firing was appropriate given the "evidence".

I need no more details than the obvious evidence presented - when the 3 big ole, police officers found the child, she was sitting calmly in a chair at a table. They did not have to cuff her and cuffing a 5 year old is against the law, given you can only cuff someone that you are placing under arrest or is posing a threat to you or others. No 5 year old in the nation can be arrested and since the 5 year old had no weapon, I don't think she was a threat.

Disturbances or not the same as "threats to safety."

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. No I heard both versions

and I heard from the the child. His mom told him to hide under the seat and not get off the bus. He was interviewed the next day at school and I was asked to sit in as a witness.

And since the driver had no money and no job, he didn't get to hire an attorney and sue to get his job back. He got screwed because a lunatic parent thought she could sue for a whole bunch of money. She didn't count on her kid telling the truth and admitting his mom told him to hide.

[merh]

68. That is so sad.

People are under the misconception that lawsuits will be their winning lotto tickets. The admin that pushes tort reform while all along killing our economy have created these type of scenerios. Folks get desparate, tired and overwhelmed and resort to tactics like this, in the hopes of getting ahead or raising in class.

I truly hate the bastards that are destroying my nation! :argh:

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Don't feel too sorry for this mom

She was a bitch. I felt really sorry for her kid, who even though he was only 5, knew what he had done was wrong. And like I said, that mom went on to threaten lawsuit nearly every time she was unhappy with the school.

[fortyfeetunder]

89. Another point of view I've heard --

I just heard a parent talking on the radio today. He didn't agree with the school's approach because he had two children with ADHD. And he had "the meeting" with the principal about what to do about the children's behavior. He also said -- his children acted far worse than the child in the video.

The children were placed in a special class for ADHD students-- available in the school system, and had to arrange behavioral help for them. He also explained how behavioral issues were handled by the class.

I agree with his premise, that it may not "all" be misbehavior, but a mental health issue, like undiagnosed ADD or ADHD, Aspergers, or some level of autism.

It appears guess any form of mental illness is dismissed, and such help not sought due to the stigma associated to mental health treatment ("My child isn't crazy!")

[Djinn]

90. no you need to get over yourself

not because people don't agree with you but because your explanation for their difference of opinion is that they "hate" chicldren, sort of sounds like the people who claim that if you don't agree with them about Bush then you must "hate america"

[QC]

55. "Why you ah a true mahtah, Miz Pig. A Christyun mahtah,"

as Amanda Wingfield would say.

When you're done singing your own praises and trashing anyone who doesn't fall to their knees and proclaim your genius, come back and try having a discussion. I don't hold out much hope of that happening, but who knows--stranger things have taken place.

And personally, I hope they don't remove your posts. You are doing a far better job of undermining your position than any opponent could ever hope to do.

[bread_and_roses]

30. So the cuffing was plainly PUNISHMENT and NOT preventive

restraint. NOT that cuffing a FIVE year old is acceptable under any circumstances I can think of. All over this country there are good teachers who handle very difficult children every day without calling in the police or using restraints or violence.

Those who think that a child exhibiting the behaviour this little girl is reported as engaging in is a discipline problem to be solved by a good beating can't possibly know much about children, about the developmental level of a five year old. Five. Go out in your neighborhood and look at five year olds. Then tell me that the only way to handle them is cuffing and beating them.

I can't imagine the terror of this child. The photo of her face as they are cuffing her is gut-wrenching.

And to think that racism plays no part in either the incident or in how people in general respond to it strikes me as naive in the extreme.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

37. I feel sick!

you are calling a five year old a TERRORIST???????????????????????

why did I have to read that?
:puke::puke::puke:

[alarimer]

41. that's disgusting

If the child had been WHITE I doubt she would have been treated that way.

[all.of.me]

44. first you call her a BRAT in capital letters, and now she is a TERRORIST?!

goodness me.....

[oscar111]

7. too few to conclude anything: way way too small a sample size

do any science experiment and you will find two groups vary from each other

JUST BY CHANCE

quite a lot , with small tiny group sizes.

as groups get larger, chance variance equals out and the chosen variable.. race.. starts to have a detectable effect.

your effort is laudable, but dont draw any conclusions from a tiny teeny no. of trials.

example was how antioxidants in small trials seemed to cure everything, ten yrs ago. Larger trials later, and they cure almost nothing.. perhaps three things. Cooper was the sincere error guy, getting the public excited on this .

[funflower]

71. She's a child, not a BRAT

Five-year-olds don't just decide to be brats. There is a problem that needs to be addressed. The fact that the officer warned her he would act in an inappropriate fashion is irrelevant to whether his conduct was inappropriate.

Five-year-olds weigh about 50 lbs - often less. If a police officer can't restrain a child this age without cuffing her, maybe we need to do something about police officer training.

[Zookeeper]

84. LOL! "Bull" indeed! Do you actually know anything about...

kids?

I watched three videos which can be found at:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2005/04/050422girlarrest.shtml

Her "trashing a classroom" involved pulling things off of a bulletin board and throwing things on the floor.

The teacher seemed to be able to ward off the five year old's deadly fists of fury without a great deal of effort. (Oooh! Getting punched by a kindergartener is pretty scary!)

Yes, the CHILD(!!!!) was having a tantrum. Unless she pulled a knife or gun on someone, I hardly think it was necessary or productive to have her handcuffed by uniformed police officers.

And, yes, I realize it was a frustrating experience for the teachers involved, but they are the ADULTS and should have better coping skills than a five-year old.

[QC]

15. Helen Lovejoy: "Won't someone think of the children?"

That's what a lot of the replies here sound like. "Oh, the poor little dear was just upset and these jackbooted fascists came in and beat her!!!!!!!!!!"

Please. If anyone here ever wonders why so few decent people go into teaching anymore, he or she need only read this thread and see why so few people would touch that damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't career with a ten-foot pole. Let a kid have a psychotic episode like that and you get fired. Restrain a kid having a psychotic episode like that and you get fired. Get sued either way and never teach again either way. What sane, reasonably intelligent person would take on a fool's game like that?

And I say this as someone who once taught "problem kids" and got out of it because I no longer wanted to deal with their excuse-making enabler parents. I know what I'm talking about.

[cmd]

17. I second your response.

30+ years in the classroom. I know what your are talking about.

[QC]

19. Thank you.

It's a pity we don't have more teachers here to give our side of the story, but I think the DU crowd is more, um, "prosperous" than that now.

[Horse with no Name]

31. Nobody is attacking "teachers" as an entity

But this teacher and this AP had no idea how to deal with a 5-year old in an age appropriate manner. You can bet your ass if I worked with nurses or doctors who showed this much incompetence that I would report it and would NEVER condone their behavior and instead view it as an attack on the legitimacy of my profession. As a teacher, I would think you would separate yourself from these idiots as well, otherwise you are saying that in this situation you would have done the exact same thing, and frankly, that is frightening.
I have been around a considerable amount of 5-years olds who were out of control for one reason or other, and the answer was never to resort to what they resorted to. Behavior modification is in order.
Just imagine that this child was acting out for a reason? Kids do NOT generally act this way unless there is a reason. Perhaps she was abused or molested by the people she trusted at home? What if this child just wanted to get attention so that she could get close enough to someone to report this? Perhaps she reasoned that if she got in trouble someone would seek to find why she was upset. The only other caregiver in this child's life was the school--and when she reaches out to them they tie her up? This child has nobody now--absolutely nobody. I find that very sad.
My sis in law is a teacher and I know they have it rough in the classrooms. However, this isn't one of these instances. THESE poorly trained educators did not react appropriately nor did they try to diffuse the situation. This child reacted to everything they did in a manner that any child would react to what they did, so therefore being surprised at how this thing played out seems out of place.

[cmd]

39. Get real - it is already near the end of the year

I feel sure EVERY kind of behavior modification had been tried by this point. The teacher and administrator were behaving in a most professional manner. This child needed to know that she does not rule the earth and all things on it.

Some five year olds are incorrigible. The thing they need most is to learn that there are boundaries that all human beings must respect.

[Horse with no Name]

42. I disagree

They herded her around like a farm animal.
That I guarantee you is NOT an acceptable form of behavior modification, nor did I see any other accepted form of behavior modication being utilized. Another reason to show that they have no idea how to relate to children.
They behaved like untrained minimum wage daycare workers--not like the highly skilled educators they should be.
I still am having a tough time wondering why a "good" educator would say this is acceptable and defend their actions? It boggles my mind that you would allow yourself to be categorized with these idiots.
I will not pretend to know what type of school you taught or your experiences there, but I certainly hope that you didn't perpetuate this type of abuse on other "incorrigible" kindergarteners.
I agree with your statement..."The thing they need most is to learn that there are boundaries that all human beings must respect"...but you must also concede they must be taught. If the parents do not respect this child and the school obviously does not respect this child--exactly WHERE do you expect her to learn how to respect others when she is clearly not respected? How do you expect her to learn boundaries when she is not told where the boundaries are?
Not ONCE did they say anything to the effect of "If you do this, then xxxx will happen."
These are learned behaviors but obviously have to be taught first.
If the school realized this child was an "incorrigible", why wasn't she segregated to an alternative school or sent her home previous to this incident?
As far as I know, kindergarten isn't mandatory--they could have just told her mother to keep her home until she learned respect if this was an ongoing problem which you are suggesting by your statement that "every behavior modication had been tried."

[cmd]

47. You are still missing the problem

Until people understand that the child has the problem, the problem will never be solved. There is no money or resources available for treating these children because no one will accept the the problem can be that bad. It is.

Someone has to stand up and shout out that the child is incorrigble. That is the only way people will begin treating her instead of treating the teacher, administrator and police.

I do consider myself a good educator. I am an advocate for five year olds who need psychological help. You have to recognize the disease before it can be treated whether it is physical or mental.

[Horse with no Name]

48. I understand the problem in it's entirety,

however, I don't believe it is solved by slapping the cuffs on.
If the school could not handle this situation, then CPS should have been called instead of the police and a social worker instead of the cuffs. Even an ambulance could have been called and the child taken to a hospital for an emergency psych evaluation.
This child was failed. She needed help, not intimidation. I won't waiver on that.

[cmd]

53. Good for you.

Do something about it. Please have the cameras rolling. I'm going to pop some corn and enjoy the show.

[Horse with no Name]

58. How progressive

By the standards you have shown here, I am certain you probably advocate tasering them when they cut in line and prison if they pull someone's hair and undoubtedly the death penalty for stealing lunch money.
Once you advocate torturous activity of any sort--you lose all civility.
I'm glad you chose to step down from teaching--good move.

[cmd]

59. I didn't step down

I'm a retired teacher with more than thirty years of teaching behind me. I had a very sucessful teaching career, have never tasered even one child, don't believe in the death penalty and understand children. People I worked with marveled at my composure under very stressful situations. I have excellent references and evaluations. Please be my guest and spend a week as a kindergarten teacher. Very few people can do it sucessfully. I can.

[Horse with no Name]

60. During my clinical rotations

I had to work in daycares, pediatric clinics, as well as mental health institutions.
I also worked in a Pediatric Trauma Unit for several years taking care of, among others, frightened 5 years old who act out (much worse than this child on the tape) when they are hurt or scared and never once had to call the police.
Because of my job, I'm very aware of how to set age appropriate limits and use positive reinforcement to offset negative behavior and expect anyone who deals with children on a day to day basis to know how to also.
I,too, understand children at their very worst behaviors and interact very well with them.
Not undermining your job skills--but my profession is pretty high stress but that can never be an excuse not to stay calm and collected. It is an expectation of my profession as well as yours, not a personal trait that should be marvelled at.
That is why I cannot fathom why someone would handcuff and torture a young child. It isn't necessary if you are competent.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Horse with no Name]

63. I would answer you if I thought you were serious

and really wanted to know the answers. But I feel you are just trying to instigate something, because if you read what I wrote, you would indeed know exactly what I thought.:hi:

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Horse with no Name]

73. And I read what you wrote and can't seem to get past the point of

you continually calling her a "brat".
You don't "instigate intellectual honesty" by degrading another human being for your own amusement. When you are ready to speak as an adult and ask a real question, I would suggest framing it in a manner that isn't so inflammatory.

[Name removed]

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[Horse with no Name]

79. Not true at all. You are demeaning this child by your "adjectives."

I don't like it nor do I respect anyone that would do such a thing. You aren't worthy of an intelligent response because you haven't put forth an intelligent point. How can I rebut anything because you never made a valid point, you simply put some nonsensical words in a sentence without any type of format. I could answer your idiotic contentions--even though they don't make any sense, but I choose only to have conversations with reasonable adults so if you can find one to discuss this issue intelligently, will be glad to answer your questions via them. Until then, tata.:hi:

[Name removed]

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[Zookeeper]

86. I agree with you.

The constant use of the word "brat" suggests the belief that a child's behavior is created in a vacuum.

And I am so disturbed by the suggestion that a five-year-old can be "incorrigble" that I can only hope that anyone with that attitude will stay as far away from young children as possible. I've seen kids throw far worse temper tantrums, yet they have somehow managed to turn into decent and pleasant young people.

Recent research has indicated that the human brain doesn't finish developing until a person's early twenties. Yet a number of posters here seem to expect a kindergartener to have the self-control and maturity of forty-year-old.

[Zookeeper]

87. Oops!

Duplicate post!

[cmd]

64. Please spend a week in the shoes of a kindergarten teacher

The teacher doesn't just spend time on one student, but must spend time with each student. They all have problems, they are all important. They all demand the time and patience of the teacher. This child took away from all the other children. This child was a repeat offender. The handcuffs were a restraint, not torture. This child is going to suffer far worse things than cuffs if she continues down this path. Would you rather see her physically restrained by a larger adult who could possible break one of her bones? Should she be allowed to destroy her surroundings creating more physical hazards for herself? It is very possible that the police called her bluff and that she will now recognize that bad things will happen if she makes wrong choices. If it works, it would certainly be worth it.

[Horse with no Name]

66. And it is very possible

That it dehumanized her.
I don't have to spend time as a teacher to know what is right and what is wrong for a child.
As I stated--my sis in law is a teacher. I know how bad the parents are and how some of the kids are. I sympathize with that and I get what you are stating.
But it seems that we can serve the greater good in a positive rather than a negative manner in this age of child.
In this situation? I would have taken her to the gymnasium and let her get her pent up aggression out before I tried to talk with her.
Away from the other children and away from other stimuli.
Explaining to this child that you don't like her actions but still like her as a person would have gone a long way.
This child hasn't had appropriate parenting. That is so obvious. Granted the school isn't there to parent someone's child, but as a human being I would have reached out for someone who was hurting and tried to help.
I don't know.
You think I don't understand your point because I am not a teacher and cannot see it through your eyes. I'll give you that one.
But maybe you don't understand my point because you are not a nurse and cannot see through my eyes the children who are broken and damaged and cannot be fixed.:cry:

[cmd]

77. I do understand what you are saying

and I feel sure that all this intervention has been done over and over again. Give this action a chance. It may be the saving grace for this child.

additonal comment: Sometimes love is tough. This child is not going to respect anyone that she can "handle" through tantrums.

[bloom]

78. It seems "funny" to me

that you refer to it as a "psychotic episode" - which it may well have been.

Like I've said before - I think schools probably need more psychologists. (The parents may need more psychologists, also).

Universal health care would benefit everybody.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[in_cog_ni_to]

23. If that little girl was the daughter of a Wealthy, WHITE

area Physician, Lawyer or businessman does ANYONE believe this would have happened to her? Hell no, it wouldn't. Race had a LOT to do with it as well as the school's inability or unwillingness to have a social worker on staff who could have calmed her down and handled this in an appropriate way. If this had happened with this little girl before, a social worker should have been assigned to her and had an ongoing relationship with her in school. Had that happened, the girl would have had "someone" she trusted and this outcome would likely have been different. Handcuffs on a 5 year old is uncalled for. If that were MY child...the school would be sued.

Your survey shows the crux of this problem.....racism.

[Djinn]

27. don't be ridiculous

the "survey" described proves absolutely nothing. Insignificant sample, no control group, different groups asked different questions, presumption of no prior knowledge and the "surveyors" own bias.

If you believe this was about racism fair enough but don't claim saking a few people their opinions proves anything

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. You didn't answer my question. If that little girl was the daughter of a

WEALTHY, WHITE area Physician, Lawyer or businessman does ANYONE believe this would have happened to her?

Not for one second do I believe it would have happened to the daughter of a WEALTHY WHITE area physician, lawyer or businessman. No way in hell.

The small sampling of the OP's group is certainly representative of the racism in this country. It exists on a large scale.

I remember Oprah doing a survey about whether race mattered, like the OP's...only larger, of course, and the outcome was the same.

ALSO, had the OP walked up to me to tell me about this story, I would have said, "Oh yeah, I heard about that story on the news." I think her presumption is pretty safe.

At any rate, handcuffing a 5 year old is ABSURD.

[Djinn]

36. no probably not

but then wealthy folks kids probably wouldn't attend an underfunded underesourced school either, they would probably already have spent money and time on shrinks and other means of controlling their child.

This kid had apparently been a problem for a while and was about to be transferred to somewhere more capable of dealing with her behaviour, even her mother has said this isn't a rare occurence.

This however is all about CLASS not race, do you think for a minute this would have happened to Condi's kid? or Colin Powell's??

All that aise this topic has been debated in several threads - what I was reponding to in THIS one is that the OP's "survey" is meaningless and proves NOTHING

[entanglement]

74. I didn't say my survey 'proves' anything, just

that the casual (and yes, apparent) trend I perceived disturbed me somewhat. I only hope that your "it's anything else, it can't be race" attitude isn't widespread.

[Djinn]

91. that's not my attitude at all

I just wouldn't instantly assumed it's got anything to do with race based on asking a few people their opinions. There is NOTHING that can be gleaned from the type of survey you did.

That's all.

[entanglement]

72. I acknowledge in my original post that I asked

a limited set of people, it was what I could do given the fact that I'm an individual. Asking different questions was essential for such a survey (perhaps you could come up with a better way to do it?)
I tried to be as neutral as I could while posing my questions. OTOH why are you so opposed to the idea that race may have played a part in this incident?

[El Fuego]

81. I think it is more socio-economic prejudice

If the five year old were the daughter of a wealthy physician, whether they were white/black/hispanic or whatever, we all KNOW they wouldn't be behaving that way. It's a ridiculous PC hypothetical that goes against reality.

When I read the story in the newspaper, they didn't mention the girl's race. My initial thought, not knowing her race, was thatI don't have any problem with the handcuffs, they won't hurt her. Kids commit MURDER with alarming frequency, I don't see any reason to mollycoddle them as innocents.

The police have a program called "scared straight" where they take problem kids to visit prisons so they'll see where they're likely to wind up. Maybe by handcuffing that girl, it will shake her up enough at a young age that it will turn the course of her life for the better. The cop could have been trying to send her a message that this is where she's headed if she doesn't control herself. Cuffing her at five might spare her a prison sentence at 18.

[Zookeeper]

88. Cuffing her at 11 or 12 might spare her a prison sentence...

not at FIVE, for cryin' out loud! A five-year-old is just not developmentally ready to benefit from that kind of "lesson."

[Godai Kyoko]

28. Something is seriosly wrong when they have to go to this level

I don't believe in smaking my kids, but they do get rough discipline. They do anything out of line, they do push ups. Sometimes lots of pushups. I also believe in making my kids better any time they go wrong.


This kid was way out of line, and knew how to manipulate the system. Even at five.

Now to the poll, I think that is very true. No matter who you know, folks just think blacks are good targets for abuse. We need to get better at this, and I think we are getting better, but I don't know if we will ever get to good or not.

An story I heard tha I have no way of verifing is that Russia always has had a rule of "No Touch Ever" by the teachers. However, the Vice principal was CheKa, and any time Little Vanya caused problems, the parent was called in and told that they could do any dicipline they wanted, but there was to be no disruption in the school. If the school continued to have problems, the parents would be assumed to be wreckers and sent to dig a canal somewhere.

Of course, they also did uniforms and the kids were obliged to do janitorial work once a week as well.

[Dogmudgeon]

40. Rough discipline?

Are your children really that difficult to handle?

From what I've heard from the Russian people I've known who have emigrated here, "rough discipline" was very common in the old USSR. The beatings occasionally led to the death of the "hooligan," as the apparatchiks called them. Even today, the standard approach to treating drug abuse is to tie the addict to a cot for three days and to periodically whip the "patient" while s/he is detoxing.

Of course, there is no lack of ex-junkies who praise this method. The same thing is seen with any harsh regime, such as those employed by the dozens of teen gulags American run in Mexico, the Bahamas, and Central America.

--p!

[TryingToWarnYou]

49. Pointless. They need to see the whole video to get an accurate opinion.

[MS68]

50. When I heard the story, I didn't know the race of the child...

My first inclination was that it sounded a little over the top. My husband explained to me that they couldn't control the child, and I figured in that case, the educators did what they had to....still not knowing the race of the child.

It does sound a little over the top, but without knowing ALL of the facts of the case, I'm not willing to make that judgement against the people that were in the situation. I did hear that the mother had been called, but couldn't leave her job. Apparently, her job was more important than dealing with her child and the education of the other 30 children that were taken out of the classroom. I dont' know what the educators should have done. They are responsible for the well being of this kid and the other kids in the classroom. This kid won't listen to them and is taking swipes at them. They can't physically touch or restrain the child for fear of being sued and the mother won't come. I think I probably would have called the police as well and let somebody else take responsibility for the situation. However, I think once the police got there and she calmed down, they should have talked to her until the mother got there. And, personally, I think the child shouldn't be allowed to come back to school until the mother agrees to get help for the child and to show immediately when there are problems. This isn't fair to the other kids in the class. They're supposed to be getting education, not taking part in an experiment on the best way to handle a disruptive kid.

[Shennendoa69]

82. My newbie 2 cents

Hi all, love the site!

I heard about this too and made the judgement it was a bit over zealous without hearing about the race of the girl. I still think its a bit over zealous, but I do understand the reason.

Due to the fact parents have been suing principles and teachers for years for laying a hand on their kids, noone in their right mind would attempt to do so anymore.

The police, whos job it is to deal with this stuff, also get sued if they break protocol - so ultimately, you see the rules being played out exactly as written with no thought as to the particular circumstances.

Its really the safest best for all those involved - any other action could easly results in lawsuits. This wont, as they followed established procedure.

Now, would I want to personally handcuff a 5 year old? Hell no... But, if someone said you had to take in a 5 year old and not handcuffing them could result in a lawsuit against me or the department, then yes... I would follow procedure.

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. Welcome to DU, Shennendoah69!

Glad to have you here! :hi:

[dsc]

57. I had no idea the race of the child until I read this thread

I hadn't seen the tape but only heard discriptions. Since that is the case I am not going to say if handcuffing was appropriate or not. What I will say is this. Someday that child is going to be 10, then 15, then 16, etc. At some point, if this child doesn't learn to control herself she is going to be a serious menace. If she hasn't reached that point yet, this parent should spend more time making sure she doesn't and less time whining in the media. I am mystified by the notion that public school are apparently the only public place in America where a majority of people think that out of control behavior should be tolerated on a repetative basis. We wouldn't expect a church, hospital, grocery store, laundromat, or anywhere else to refrain from calling the police in this situation yet we do expect the public schools to do so. That truely mystifies me.

[SmokingJacket]

65. I knew as soon as I heard the promo for the story that she was black.

They would NEVER handcuff a white girl.

I taught in heavily black and mixed race schools and I KNOW how much racism is out there.

Most white people don't want to acknowledge it.

[entanglement]

75. Thanks for your input, it's sometimes surprising

to see the extent of liberal(?) denial. I see the pattern over and over again, you'll always hear "yes, racism is bad / horrible" but there is also the "it doesn't happen here / has nothing to do with racism" attitude when it comes to specific incidents.

[Djinn]

93. no-one is saying it had nothing to do with racism

many people here have said they think it was, others (like myself) have said they think it has more to with socio-economic factors.

Just don't neccesarily agree it HAS to be racist.

[entanglement]

94. Fair enough, if that's your position n/t

[The Doctor.]

92. Good stab...

I imagine you might see the same overall tendency and mode in a larger sample... just a bit less pronounced.

(I would hope)


"My eyes are blind but I can see, the snowflakes glisten in the trees."

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. I hope you saw this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3535502