Why do christian fundamentalists feel so threatened?

[SGBL]

In my city there is a TV station that regularly airs these christian fundamentalist movies that they believe are based on fact. They have the most bizarre basis and plots you can imagine. Yet the all have a commmon theme of christians being a persecuted minority in the united states.

For instance, one of them was essentially a movie based in the near future when all christians in america will be persecuted. (they were talking nazi style round ups) How in the hell do they fear that will happen? Who is going to be rounding them up? The non-christian minority? Everyone in the movie had the mark of the beast, and it ended with a group of "true" christians breaking in to a computer system and showing everyone the light. It didn't really make a whole lot of sense.

What is with these people? Why do they have such a persecution complex? They control the government yet at the same time they feel threatened by it. It makes no sense at all.

[deadparrot]

1. IMO, they don't.

It's a front. Anything short of a fullblown fundamentalist Christian theocracy would make these people crow about discrimination.

[FreedomAngel82]

13. Exactly

It's so they can continue to force their beliefs into law. All they have to do is pretend to be victim. Hitler did the same thing with the Jews. If anybody in this country is persecuted it's NOT them.

[Snotcicles]

76. That movie sounds like Godzilla ( excuse the pun) n/t

[fishwax]

56. yep, it's just an awfully successful strategy for them

and they won't be satisfied until we have a fundamentalist state.

[ComerPerro]

60. Well, I think the fundies feel it. Not the leaders, but the followers

The leaders make sure that their believers feel threatened and persecuted. It stirs up feelings of unity and moral outrage.

Plus, its a great way to control people.

[Pithy Cherub]

2. Their Rapture Practice keeps getting postponed...

[Imalittleteapot]

3. It's been drummed into their heads.

Let's call it mind control.

[me b zola]

26. Exactly. Mind control

My fundie-lite mother in law receives all of the petitions & mass letters telling her how liberals are trying to take religion away from them. Apparently there is something in the Book of Revelations that makes them believe that this will happen. Easy prey (pray?) for Dobson, Robertson & the rest of the unholy alliance.

[beam me up scottie]

4. Yes, they're terrified

of all the atheists and our "Evil Atheist Conspiracy".

Haven't you heard, YOU COULD BE NEXT!!!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

ahem, forget I said that...

[Zhade]

35. BMUS! You have defiled the Sacred Atheist Code of Silence!

You will be whipped for your lack of discretion!

[beam me up scottie]

44. No, please, anything but that!

I promise I won't do it again!
Don't get the wet noodle, please...

[Zhade]

83. Okay, okay.

But you're lucky - it was a wide noodle. Wide, I say!

[beam me up scottie]

85. He didn't want the rubber chicken...

:cry:

If only he knew what an honor it is to win one...

[Zhade]

86. A rubber chicken is a thing of honor!

How can anyone refuse?

[beam me up scottie]

88. Not to mention beauty...

I dunno, ask the guy in post #69. Maybe he doesn't know about the chicken, it IS a secret club.

[Zhade]

94. Your posts are a thing of beauty and rubberiness.

Is that a word?

Anyway, s/he seems a bit perturbed by imaginary posts I see nowhere.

[JHB]

48. That reminds me...

...if I'm part of a global conspiracy, where's my f*&%^ing CHECK?!!!
:grr:

[beam me up scottie]

55. It's in the mail, of course!

:evilgrin:

nt

[Gelliebeans]

62. The EAC

;)and our rubber chickens

[beam me up scottie]

64. Yes. They covet our rubber chickens

and know that they are damned for eternity for,...um...well, coveting rubber chickens!
I know it's in the commandments somewhere, probably on the tablet Moses dropped as seen in "History of the World Part I"

[DawgHouse]

5. Especially when you consider

that scripture says to expect to be persecuted and to rejoice and be glad.

[susanna]

10. Thank you!

This has been my point for years.

Another point I just have to make: being hung on a cross with nails through your extremities makes a little garden variety persecution* seem like it's not such a big deal after all...I mean, the head of the entire religion took the REAL heat, didn't he?

* even if it is based on mass delusion

[FreedomAngel82]

15. Exactly

If you know you're doing pure good you shouldn't feel threatned. God will take care of you in the afterlife. It goes to show you these people DO NOT know their own Bible.

[Bluerthanblue]

28. i agree... 'faith' isn't something

that requires anyone to co-erce or control others- (or themselves) i AM a believer in Christ, and i have 'faith' that whatever comes- (including physical death) will eventually leave me in a better place.- (should emphasize that 'eventually')

My experience as an EX fundie is that the desire to have 'control' over all possible terrible things, and the notion that doing good, will show 'benefits' in THIS life- or in the near future, is what fuels many, if not most peoples fundementalism..... and people don't want to be 'controlled' by others, especially others that don't seem to live under the same constraints (behind closed doors) that they want to shove down others throats-

Jesus WAS different- He warned his followers NOT to store up for themselves, or 'judge' the 'righteousness of others' or be picking the specks out of others eyes, while having logs in thier own- He wasn't big on wealth, popularity, or 'control'- HE called it like it really was, and died for His honest, even unto death 'faith'- and that speaks to me (personally) of no need to hoard, kill 'pre-emptivly' or be terrified of what will come to us all one day- Physical Death-

Fundementalism is a ruse, an illusion of control, that lures those who fear, and need to be 'in control' of all things-

(sorry for the rant) Death is most painful to those left behind- i'm well to aquainted with that pain- and ask others to rejoice with and for me when i'm gone- living in fear, is a crippled existance.

[Inland]

23. Yes: they WISH democracy and culture to count as "persecution"

That way, they get all the blessings of being persecuted for His sake without actually suffering.

It allows for both the selfrighteousness of the martyr and control over government and the power of compulsion.

[Az]

6. Why do they feel so threatened?

Could be modern science keeps undermining the foundation of their beliefs.

Could be society keeps advancing and changing its moral understanding.

Could be the education system advocates tolerance of others including those of different belief systems giving them credibility.

Could be that the advances in medical research challenge their notion of the limits they believe man should have.

There is much in this society that scares fundamentalists. They have a different view of the universe than many of us.

[havocmom]

22. Could be they think it makes them more Christ-like to suffer, so they

look for reasons to pretend they are suffering. 'See how I suffer? See how alone I am in my piety.'

Or it could be that old projection thing again: they accuse others of doing what they do.

My guess is a combination of all of the replies plus the fact that we just do not do enough to teach people good parenting nor provide what is necessary for good mental health in this country.

[Bigmack]

93. Cognitive dissonance...

What they believe is constantly being "attacked" by science and the evidence of their own eyes and experience.

They don't know whether to shit or go blind, so they believe all the stronger in the delusional crap like the rapture.

[H2O Man]

7. I suspect

they wouldn't get as many followers to donate funds if they did not ride the wave of anxiety and paranoia.

[mitchum]

31. You are on the money!

absolutely correct

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. One of the best ways to control people

is to scare them. (It worked after 9/11, didn't it?)

Remember, many fundamentalists live in a total information environment. They ahve been told that mainstream media are evil and that exposure to them endangers their souls. Many of them associate only with other fundamentalists. They are therefore totally susceptible to the kinds of movies that the rest of us see as laughable.

If you remember when the scandal about East German athletes being pumped full of steroids broke, one of the women said that since they associated only with other athletes and did little every day except train, they did not think it odd when they started developing facial hair, big arms, and deep voices because everyone around them was as well.

That's sort of what it's like to be a hardcore fundamentalist. You believe that Christians are persecuted because that's what everyone tells you, and when you try to talk to someone outside the fold, they treat you as if you're crazy. (Which you aren't, really, just gullible and brainwashed.)

[FreedomAngel82]

18. So true

The tv avengelist play this card well. Then they ask for your money for their "mission." :eyes:

[CAG]

9. Their leaders exagerate anything to "rally the troops"

Its all a propaganda ploy by the rich and powerful "country club" republicans to pander to this base; its the only way they can continue to get the votes of these middle to lower-middle class crowd.

[harpo]

11. size matters

:evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

14. You mean like

your god is bigger than their god?
And your god could kick their god's ass?

[harpo]

20. that's why they are always whining about being attacked by "liberals"

[beam me up scottie]

25. Like the repukes

in the senate crying about the mean old democrats filibustering less than five percent of *'s judges?
Cry me a river...

:evilgrin:

[sendero]

12. They are all mentally ill...

.. and their paranoia is merely one component of that illness.

[mwb970]

16. Hmm...

Now why would CHRISTians go around acting like victimized martyrs? Hmm...

[toddaa]

17. Mark IV movies?

I'm curious, do you remember the names of these films?

I'm thinking of titles like A Thief in the Night, A Distant Thunder, Image of the Beast, and Prodigal Planet. Kitschy cult classics.

[Liberal In Texas]

19. When the sheeple are fearful, they're more easily swayed and controlled.

WTF do you think all that rhetoric was about during the campaign with images of mushroom clouds and before the war with all the talk about the WMD's that were going to get us next?

A fearful populace (or in this case, flock of followers) is easier to manipulate. I believe Hitler mentioned this in "Mein Kamph."

[gulliver]

21. They felt threatened...so they became fundamentalists.

The group self-selects for paranoia and delusions of persecution.

[RetroLounge]

24. They are Not Christians

They are Fristians...

RL

[OHdem10]

27. Fundamnetalists(at the time of the Enlightment)

were those denominations which could never deal with modernity
otherwise known as Secularism, Through history they have managed
to pass down the fear of Secularism. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism.
What is the big fight in Muslim World? --Struggle against Modernity
another word for Secularism. If you had the opportunity to read
at the Catholic Websites during the recent Papal Election--you would find Conservative Wing of Catholic Church (Fundamentalist). Many of
the popes writings rails agains liberals, Secularism. Robertson, Fallwell, and other Fundamentalists go into tirades of rant against
Secularism. The Emans and Mullahs rail against Modernity.

Growing up in the South and a Catholic(then it was a more liberal church at least where I lived) I have heard the the fear of Secularism from the
Fundies all my life. It seems to just get passed down generation to
generation.

Modernity(Secularism) is the BIG FEAR of all Fundamentalists.

When they cry out about hkow Christias are under seige.==thkis is a political tactic used to eventually push their religion onto everyone
else. The Media give them attention--the Republkican Party will jump into action to help them. Bingo , they have gotten more and more
power and they are pushing their agenda big time.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. again,

it is the desire to be in 'control'- or to 'be God'-

if i do this- then that will happen-

if women wear burquas, men will be less likely to be 'in control' of thier 'desires'-

'spare the rod and spoil the child'

'God will 'punish' the world for 'thier' evil deeds'

'You 'reap' what you sow'- (i DO believe this to a degree, but we often don't get to see the actual harvest)
In reality, 'bad' people often prosper in this world, and 'good' folks often suffer alot- there is so much we cannot 'control'- one's own self is a big enough challenge.

[Individualist]

73. I agree

The persecution meme is an attempt to change our government to a theocracy.

[mitchum]

30. Because I am raising lions in my backyard

very hungry lions

[Gelliebeans]

63. here kitty kitty kitty :)

[Lerkfish]

32. basic mind control 101. As long as they are told to perceive a threat

from OUTSIDE, it allows them to mentally overlook the threats from their own leadership.

More bizarre to me is the dual edge conundrum of WANTING the endtimes to happen so they can be "special" and raptured while everyone else suffers. What kind of christian charity is THAT?

[OnionPatch]

33. It's so bizarro

and fits in with the theme of the times. Up is down, wrong is right. War is good, peace is bad. Stupid is good, intellect is bad. (Election) Winners lose and losers "win." The masses are waging a counter-revolution in support of their rich oppressors. Christians hold the most power in the US government yet they constantly complain about being "persecuted."

I almost posted this same thing earlier. I was wondering how on Earth can they possibly feel persecuted!!! It's the rest of us that should be losing sleep at nights worrying about THEM persecuting the rest of US!! They way they behave these days, I'm almost waiting for the torches and pitchforks to gather on my doorstep.

For the record......I denounced my Christianity on "Justice Sunday." My beliefs haven't changed but I can no longer stomach belonging to that group anymore. I can try to follow Jesus's teaching without the label.

[Maru Kitteh]

34. Because anything short of total control of the government is their

definition of persecution I think. Much like any really wacko fanatical group, religious or not, they will never be satisfied unless they have absolute power.

[Jade Fox]

36. They equate persecution with being good.....

plus persection means you don't have any power no matter how much
power you are actually amassing. These are not healthy people.

I just watched the movie "Saved!". I recommend it if you are getting
freaked out by the Fundies!

[funflower]

37. Here's why they fear persecution.

1. The early Christians were in fact persecuted (lions and all that).
2. Various Christians sects were persecuted (generally by other Christian sects).
3. Christians were persecuted during the twentieth century in some countries, notably communist countries.
4. The Book of Revelation, which fundamentalists see as prophetic of the "end times," describes persecution of believers.
5. They got picked on at school for being doofy church kids.
6. The times they are a-changin', and not in ways that make fundamentalists happy.
7. They've read DU and know that some of you-all would love nothing more than to round them up and put them in a camp if you had the chance. ;-)

[Zhade]

38. I call BULLSHIT.

Find one - ONE - example of any DUer calling for rounding up Christians and putting them in camps.

I'm an atheist, and there are many Christians here I really like. Your comment is uncalled for.

[Disturbed]

40. Read a book about cults.

The Fundie mentality will become clear.

[Zhade]

43. D, I AM an ex-fundie. Trust me, we're on the same page.

NT!

[Bridget Burke]

49. Sarcasm can be hard to communicate online....

But the smilie might be a clue!

[funflower]

59. Thanks. I thought the wink might help, too.

:-)

[Dob Bole]

50. I call UN-BULLSHIT!!!

I found the poster's analysis to be pretty accurate. And while DUers know better than to recommend concentration camps, I see plenty of jokes about sending them to the lions. Like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID60/28764.html#18

[Runcible Spoon]

52. sugar, that's the BEST you could cherrypick from the archives?

that freakin' post is 2 years old. Pathetic. :eyes:

[Dob Bole]

54. well, you could look directly above my post...

in this thread, or at any of the other discussions on Christianity, and see plenty of references to "the lions."

Obviously, my link was what is known as an example, or sample. Those are your vocabulary words for today.

[Runcible Spoon]

75. and YOUR vocabulary words for today are:

"grow" "some" "thicker" "skin" "and" "ditch" "the" "persecution"
"complex".

[beam me up scottie]

77. ROFLMAO!

:rofl:



nt

[Dob Bole]

78. more vocabulary words

ninny

brouhaha

Elizabethan

shelter

burrito

I'm sorry if I offended you. But then, you immediately accused me of "cherrypicking from the archives." I am merely pointing out a point long dead, that people on DU make jokes about persecution of Christians...not that they actually do any persecuting at all. The example about 5 posts above mine was already there when you made your initial post.

Once again, sorry for the midday I-need-some-lunch-and-I'm-grumpy attitude that I displayed earlier. It was uncalled for.

As a token of apology, I give you the gift of the Death of Pooh:

http://www.helixdmonster.com/torture_pooh.htm

and of a burrito:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/burrito_lockdown

[Runcible Spoon]

79. snarf!

cute! and evil! Just my style! :evilgrin: I was being a bitch too...I'm in the middle of thesis writing hell. Peace, :hug:

[Runcible Spoon]

80. PS

"30 inch burrito stuffed with steak" :wow: :spank:
in case you haven't seen this: http://www.peepresearch.org/

[mitchum]

89. Dob, who said I'm joking?

if their fondest wish is to be with their god, who am I to stand in their way? I try to be an accommodating sort :)

[beam me up scottie]

90. Oh, you're not a nice man at all.

:evilgrin:

Nice men are so boring...

[funflower]

57. Calm down, dude. I'm joking.

:hi:

[Zhade]

84. Okay, sorry about that.

I've just seen a few too many "Help! Help! I'm a persecuted Christian!" posts here on DU, made me jump to conclusions.

:hi: back at ya.

[funflower]

91. No problem....

I've done it myself a million times.

:pals:

[mopaul]

45. really though, shouldn't christians be rounded up & put in camps?

is that the headline your trolling for?

[funflower]

58. Not trolling for anything. Just kidding.

[artemisia1]

39. Easy, because it's easier to mistreat others if you

consider yourself to be a victim. Think; the Nazi's and Versailles. Understand, lest I offend, I am speaking of the fundie RW and NOT people of the Christian faith in general. A group that considers itself victimized, and defines its existence as such, can be the most dangerous of all. Most people don't know that many times more early Christains died at the hands of other early Christians in sectarian violence than they did at the hands of the Roman authorities.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. They don't!

It is all pretend. It is fantasy. Like when the 95 pound weakling, pretends he beats up everyone or gets all the hot "chicks/dudes." They pretend they are 'scared' so they can justify their own acts of cowardice and hate and not feel guilt over it. It is an odd form of "projection." What they have done to others, they pretend is done unto them! Maybe they are scared that we have read the verse "Do unto others have you would have done unto yourself" and fear we may "do unto them" what they have "done unto us!"

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mopaul]

46. pat robertson's been selling this notion for 30 years

quite successfully too. it's one of the greatest virtues of being a fundie robertson follower, that o so nice feeling of being a member of a persecuted group. the martyrdom just oozes out of pat and his zombie donators.

[JHB]

47. it's a LARGE dose of Projection

Fot the last quarter-century, I've heard these guys spread scare'em stories about what they think "Secular Humanists" (or whoever the Demon Du Jour is) will do to them if they don't politicise.

Not surprisingly, it's precisely the sort of treatment they proudly proclaim that they would foist on everyone else if they ever managed to get this country "back" to being a "Christian, Bible-based nation".

[Bridget Burke]

51. "Christianity Under Attack!" (Please send money.)

An all-out assault has been launched to uproot the foundations of Christian civilization in America.

If youre intellectually sensitive to the presuppositions underlying current events, you've already seen the explicit agenda of humanists to silence the Christian voice in America.

No doubt you are greatly disturbed by the efforts of secularists, pluralists, and false religious groups to remove the Judeo-Christian God “from every post and pillar.” The following is just a few of the wicked strategies imposed by such humanist organizations as the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and other secular and false religious groups.

www.chalcedon.edu/underwriters.php

It goes on... This is from The Chalcedon Foundation, originally founded by R J Rushdoony--a pioneer in the Dominionist movement. He's also the one who started the Christian Homeschooling Movement--whose only purpose is to destroy the Public schools. (Yes, I know people homeschool for other reasons.) Click around the site if you feel brave.

And, yes--this particular screed is an invitation to give LARGE amounts of money to these poor victims.

[KlatooBNikto]

53. Because they are frauds afraid of being found out.

[Mary in KC]

61. They are taught that they are persecuted for religion's sake.

Its a great tool.

[stanwyck]

65. Fund-raising

it's always about the money. It's rallying the troops to pick their pockets. Always. No matter the cover story. It's about the filthy lucre they crave.

[tom_paine]

66. Their mindset on this score is identical to the Nazis

and you have as much chance of reasoning with that mindset as those who tried with the Nazis.

EVEN when they control everything, they are STILL the victims.

They are the mental (not yet phsycial, though I wonder how long it will take for them to rationalize violence as an appropriate means to use against Jews...errr...Liberals) equivalent of a nazi kicking a jew to death in the Courtyard of Auschwitz, screaming "Filthy Jew. Stop opressing my people!"

You cannot reason with that. It is a falsely implanted victimhood designed to keep the blood of the subject boiling and to loosen their own morals so that they will embrac eevil in the cause of "combatting a greater evil".

Like the Nazis did.

But you aksed. That is at least the partial answer.

You can only defeat it.

[Pockets]

67. Funny....

That movie (or movies) sounds like it would be hilarious to watch. Do you know the name of it?

[onager]

71. Those movies ARE hilarious!

I'm an atheist, and I catch them whenever I can. They usually show on the local TBN cable channel, which even some Xians refer to as "The Blasphemy Network." (If you're not up on your Recreational Xianity, TBN is the lair of the hilarious, huge-haired Paul and Jan Crouch. They run a Fundie outfit in Orange County, CA, with the message "Jesus was a CEO and wants you to be rich!")

Anyway, in the Fundie Cinema category, I highly recommend Megiddo: The Omega Code II.

It has some real "stars" in it: Michael York, Michael Biehn and Diane Venora. Venora is even funnier than she was playing that scar-faced KGB agent in The Jackal.

You get to see the battle of Armageddon, but the budget was so low they could only afford 1 tank. So you get to see it roll past the camera over and over and over...

And the "spooky" CGI effects look like they were done after hours by fifth-graders.

A masterpiece!

[DearAbby]

87. Megiddo: The Omega Code II. I wonder if MST3K would do a spoof

of one of those movies? :rofl:

[libertypirate]

68. Not to hard

This is very simple so don't make it to complicated. If you try to live you life to a set of principles that is incompatible with society, society itself becomes a threat to you life.

[hfojvt]

69. because they are all child molesters and child abusers afraid of

getting caught.

This thread seems to be a contest to see who can come up with the most insulting stereotype of Christians. So my post is not meant to be taken seriously, but only as an entry into this contest. Please let me know if I win an award for being the most insulting, or the most bigoted.

[beam me up scottie]

74. Congratulations!

You win the rubber chicken!

[lulu]

70. Because fundamentalist Christians are persecuted

by their own image of God. Their God judges them and sends them to suffer an eternity of the most vicious torture in hell simply because they may have had bad thoughts, lusted after someone, or had premarital sex. Their God is the worst kind of abusive father. No wonder they feel persecuted. I have know many fundamentalist Christians, and most of them come from abusive families, many with the cruelly abusive fathers. It makes sense that they would choose a type of religion where they feel at home.

[Kipepeo]

92. I think this is a good point

I'd also add that a lot of the fundies I know personally feel threatened by the very existence/happiness/success of "non-believers."

It challenges their black and white version of the world to see happy or fulfilled *sinners* especially if they are unhappy themselves yet believe they are living the *right* way and doing all the *right* things.

[dxdem]

72. Framing.

It gives them a reason to live.

[SoCalDem]

81. They have to ascribe to themselves, what they DO to others..Justification

They hate, therefore, they must somehow also believe that it;s justified because "everyone hates them, and wishes them harm". Intimidation, and violence, done pre-emptively has to be explained away..

It's the "engine" that drives bullies like *². Gotta kill Iraqis before they kill us..

Does ANYONE in their "sane" mind really think that Saddam was plotting a US overthrow?? Even if he HAD been, just HOW would he have managed to "take us over"??

Wacky fundamentalists HAVE to make their congregants and followers FEAR take-over by "others"..

It's brainwashing 101..

[Fleshdancer]

82. Fear is a form of control

keeping the believers in fear of impending persecution is the best way to keep them controlled. Either that, or perhaps it's easier for them to persecute other groups when they themselves believe they are the ones actually being persecuted.

[Beacho]

95. They've felt threatened since The Enlightenment

And the Bible Gangsters have been fighting it ever since.

Now they are the closest to snuffing out the lamp of the Enlightenment via snuffling their snouts to the centers of power of the country that was the greatest result of the collective movement that has been in operation for the last four hundred(plus) years.

What most people don't know is that these Dark Age Reconconstructionists consider people like Voltaire, Locke, Paine, et al as the 'eveel secularist liberals' that need to be defeated to bring humanity 'back to Christ'.

Goes a little deeper than we all thought.

The lamp is sputtering, my friends, and these thugs want to blow it out for good.

[kodi]

96. they fear their tenets being scrutinized by logic, rationalism and scince

it is a response from some religious minded people to the disinclination of civil society itself to incorporate the incomprehensible along with the comprehensible as necessary constituents of the world.

even with all our church steeples, the West has become increasingly more dependent upon rationalism. one need only to look at what this rationalism has wrought to see it.; the world of modern technological wonders.

those who believe that the world can not be explained merely by the comprehensible, those who cherish the idea of the ineffiblity of "God's secrets" are often scorned openly as superstitious where only critically established understanding possesses value.

rationalism rejects "god's secrets" as being ineffible. rationalism rejects the incomprehensible, and instead yields a secretless view with its highest potentialities called wisdom and its priests are philosophers and educated people.

what we have here is the religious right's reponse to this scorn and it cannot be rebutted rationally, because it is a-rational, a-comprehensible (incomprehensible).

the religious right is fighting on a different field, using different weapons than the secular rationalists who oppose injecting the incomprehensible into the comprehensible world.

i use the analogy of having a person demand that others see what he does, and is disinclined to use rationalism as a referee. it is akin to the character Big Julie in "Guys and Dolls" who shots craps using dice with the spots removed and only he can see where the spots once were. and he inisists that others recognize that he rolled a 7 or 11. and his insistence is backed up by force. this is what the religious right is doing, again.

i'll leave with what Aristole said, because it strikes at the religious right's demand for proper respect of the incomprehensible......religion is indispenible only to the uneducated.

[Vektor]

97. Because they see John Kerry's

giant liberal wang, and think "damn, I'd hit that" then feel all dirty and guilty about it?