The other shoe will drop soon.

[SoCalDem]

The UAL pension scam, and other PBGC obligations WILL affect taxpayers (middle class taxpayers, that is). And even though we all "know" that the stock market is as bloated and phony as ever, can you even IMAGINE how things will play out when the Boomers start WITHRAWING from those IRAs & 401-ks?? Most of that "money" is just numbers scrolling off into the ether, and the only REAL money there (the BIG money) scrolls right into the CEO and super-rich people's bank accounts, where it is promptly funneled into "safe" offshore investments (untouchable by our government)...

The whole IRA & 401-k set-up is pretty new (in the Boomers' working lifetime), and it has not been fully "tested" yet..

The bankruptcy bill will drive millions of "formerly" middle class people into destitution, and those nearing the end of their working life (whether by choice or NOT), will have no choice but to withdraw that "reserve" and we all know what happens when more is going out, than is going in..

These fantasticalicious new jobs in our new economy are NOT going to pump up the stock market like the relatively high paying jobs of the past.

People will no longer trust their long term futures with ANY company, and may not even want to participate in 401-k's and other "monetary vehicles" that our scammers in charge "design" for them and their futures.

Equity in homes has been used up to prop up the economy, credit cards are going to escalate charges to the point that lots will be unable to use them like before, even if they wanted to.

The spiral starts somewhere, and once started, it's hard to stop..

Ole Perot mentioned a giant sucking sound... I an hearing that sound..It's louder every day..

[Bluebear]

1. Recommended, and what on earth to do?

Buy real estate? Become a landlord? What in the world will become of us boomers? What have the working-class Bush voters gotten us into?

[Taxloss]

2. The most effective way to weather a recession

is to ensure that you carry no debt, or as little debt as possible, when entering it. That's if you're not rich. If you are planning for that, the credit cards must be the first thing to go.

[Bluebear]

3. Greets Taxloss.

Do you think real estate is stable or is that due for a fall too?

[SoCalDem]

6. It HAS to fall.. How many 'first-time' buyers can even get into that house

The MEDIAN price where I live is $275K.. and that's for a crappy house like I live in :)..

Incomes are NOT keeping up with the housing prices.. Speculators will be happy to scoop up the bargains, as people default and move to cheaper places (red states??), but even at that, SOMEONE must be able to buy them...and the prices are ridiculous..

It has to fall...but when it falls, that will mean even more people bailing out.. When you owe $200K on a house that "might sell" for $150, why not just walk away from it.. That's what happened during the last downturn.. The new bankruptcy bill will make that harder, but if you don;t have the money, you cannot pay..no matter how hard they squeeze..

[Horse with no Name]

28. Well personally at this juncture of the game

If I were in such a situation and had a $200k house that I was looking at just having to walk away from, I would suck every cent of equity out of it and purchase a small home somewhere with the proceeds that I could pay for with that equity.
I dunno, that's just me. Right or wrong. If you are going to default, default huge. That's what our government does.

[SoCalDem]

30. People have been LIVING on their equity

Lots of folks have taken all the equity.. they stillowe $200K on a house that they could only get $150K for,, There will be NO money to be made..

They have used their homes as ATMs

Want a new car?? equity loan
Need a vacation??...equity loan
Tuition due?? equity loan
Gotta pay a doctor?..equity loan

Home equity has been fueling the economy for a few years now...that and plastic.. The govt is shutting off the "plastic living" with the BK bill (people might be too scared to use them much if they know they cannot bail out at some point)

and when the housing bubble bursts, the rest will come tumbling down.. There are speculators who will snatch up bargains, but even THEY want to make a profit, so there must be someone out ther with money to BUY these houses..The more of 'em, the lower the prices..BUT what if there are too many low-paid people or unemployed people, and there are few buyers??..Empty, unsold houses just add the the blight and vandalism problems, and with fewer police in most communities, thwe problems just get worse..

[LiberallyInclined]

32. the 'housing bubble' isn't a nationwide thing

southern california has it bad because the weather makes it adesirable place to live. as the population rises, so will the number of people who want to live where the weather is nice.
if there is a 'bursting of the bubble' the price drops won't be huge ones, as there is only so much real estate in the most desirable areas.

Las Vegas is one place that astounds me, housing industry-wise...where is the water for all these houses and their supposed residents going to come from?

[SoCalDem]

33. That's a question that a lot of people in Vegas are asking..

The real question is.."At what cost"? The desert communities out here are (and have been ) seeing a tremendous increase in water bills.

A few years ago we got a notice saying that if consumers did not reduce consumption by 30%, our bill would be on the pro-rated system where different levels of usage would be tagged with different costs..We have no grass, so we used very little, but of course they set the lower levels so low, that we were in danger of falling into the "scheme". We, and apparently everyone else started conserving like crazy, and a few months later there was another notice:

Due to the drop in consumption, the EMWD was suffering loss of revenues, and the base price was going to rise..

Damend if you do and damned if you don't.:)

[Taxloss]

7. Hi Bluebear!

In the UK, real estate is currently the least stable part of the economy because of the unsustainable debt load it carries. I think that's not so much of the case in the US, but look at it this way:

You're a bank. The people with investment accounts (that is, private retirement accounts, perhaps supported with employer contributions, which what I am guessing 401ks are) start divesting because they no longer feel they are secure. You will take a big financial hit. The people you will start to screw to attempt to weather the storm are the ones who can't run off easily - the heavily indebted and homeowners.

This is probably what the changes in bankruptcy legislation have been about.

So real estate isn't a great option unless you own it outright, in which case it's worth hanging on to!

But I should say I'm not a trained accountant, economist or any of that - what little knowledge I have comes from business journalism.

[izzie]

11. I think every thing goes down---

In a crash it is not that every thing fails but that every thing sort of goes down. My father always worked in the Great one of the 20's and 30's and so did every one in his family but you just had to take what jobs you could find and money was very tight. I have seen pay slips of my Father during these years and he made an average of just under 10,000 a year which I know was very high for then. He was born in 1914. He worked his way Thur high school and college as his brother did.He worked/trained on job. The rest were helped by these two boys and only one went on to school and did well in her life.One ended up very poor and one stayed with a corp. for life. They grew up in a real NE mill city and many did not have jobs. My father never said that people with no jobs were lazy they just would not wake up to the change in what was going on. Or so he thought. Yes he was a die-heart Republican as his brothers were.They both started business that were really some thing you did not need for such times. They both made them work well. Both had out side jobs to keep these businesses going for a good number of years. I had other uncles on other side of family that were a little younger and worked for the CCC. They also came from a small NE mill city but had no higher education. I recall giving food to people in the family and to the Poor farm as a very small child.

[izzie]

12. Sorry that was so long,

But at 70 I was born at the end of that time.

[flygal]

36. My great-grandfather came out of the depression a dem

and made my mother swear she would never vote repug!! He was a homesteader - and your post was very interesting. I think it's good to hear people get through the worst of times. My generation - I'm 37 has had it really good. We don't know how to save, cook, have never known life without cable. Could be interesting.

[CrispyQ]

40. Also, get yourself in the best physical shape you can!

Modify any bad habits that might have a negative impact on your health. Eat whole foods & exercise! Consider purified drinking water. And don't forget the impact stress has on your health. By decreasing your debt you will decrease the daily stress in your life.

And hug your kids, hug your spouse & tell them you love them everyday!

[Eloriel]

45. Learn to garden ... organically

and start now. Learn food preserving too (canning, freezing, maybe even dehydrating, etc.)

[SoCalDem]

4. I wish I knew, Blue..

For the first time in my life, I am really scared about our futures.. What good is it to live a long time due to "medical miracles", if you cannot afford to partake in that miracle? To live a long time and be ill and poor is not appealing to me at all..

To be sure, there will be some winners, but I fear that the losers will be many...and through no fault of their own, except their accident of birth. Being born into the elite rich is not something that one can choose.

The "age-creep" in SS has me worried too, because people at our age are often at their peak earning years, and as the 5K suddenly becomes a 10K (a few feet before the finish line), just HOW MANY Boomers will be "invited" to stay on the job until they are 67? Businesses are going to start to hemorrhage, and the FIRST thing they will do, is trade 'expensive workers' for 'cheap' ones..

Even Walmart needs only so many greeters..

[Bluebear]

5. How about fry cook?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3633394

I made up this thread in all seriousness.

[BamaBecky]

15. I'm really scared too......and I don't know as much as you guys know...n/t

[Zynx]

39. Don't even consider real estate right now.

It is bloated all around the country much more so than any major stock market sector. If you don't have tolerance for risk, just put your money in a money market fund and keep your eyes open for any opportunities.

[xchrom]

8. modern americans and their drive for ''wealth''

is what has helped create this scenario.

you are refering to a mind set thaat reagan tapped into in the 80's and the culture has been resonating to it ever since.

americans a generation or two ago would not have put their faith in schemes that seemed too good to be true -- they would have wanted to ensure that corporations upheld their part of the social compact.

reagonomics broke that compact.

and an assortment of american leaders from all sides of the political spectrum have been singing the same hymn.

just don't ever depend on red state americans to join with blue americans to fix the problem any time soon.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. Consider the buffalo......

consider the lifestyles of many of the native Americans.... NOTHING on a buffalo carcass went to waste.... they apologized to the spirits for having to kill them.... they used the fruits of nature frugally and thoughtfully. They were not rabid consumers destroying all in their path in spite of being "them savages".

They lived with the world, not against it. Without us, they would still be thriving and the country would be pristine. With us, 20,000,000 of them have vanished. Grandma always used to say, waste not, want not, but this "system of consumerism" that has gotten us where we are, is going to take us where it wants sooner or later. I hope somebody has some ideas, cuz we sorely need some. I am out of debt and plan to stay that way for the duration.

[BR_Parkway]

9. The entire reason Shrub needs Private Accounts - they have to replace the

cash flowing through the illusion they've created. No other plan, no other details, no compromise on it. They MUST have this cash flow or it all spins apart.

And our millionaire "representatives" have NO clue what the rest of us are facing - for all the mouthy rhetoric, they still see life and the laws they pass from the country club, jet-set(corporate paid), $300 plate fundraising dinners. I'm not sure that most of them even realize that the the single mom or dad trying to make it on $300 per week even exists.

[izzie]

13. I thought also it maybe that the boomer's will take so -----

much out of market soon that Bush's 'plan' would dump this back in the market?The SS money that is.

[raccoon]

21. Abso-friggin-lutely, these people have NO IDEA

what life is like for the average American, no idea what it's like to have to watch every dime, not be able to afford health/dental/vision care, decent housing, reliable transportation, prescription drugs you have to take to live...did I leave anything out?

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. But Chimpy said he knows what it's like.

Chimpy claims he knows "how hard it is for you to put food on your family." And he said that working three jobs to make ends meet, is 'uniquely American", as if that's a good thing. :crazy: And Sen McCain said that most "normal" Americans don't get medical check ups every three months like he has too. Are they out of touch with the reality of average Americans? I think so. More to the point is that they couldn't care less, just so long as they can maintain their cushy luxury lifestyles.

[raccoon]

46. Yes, they couldn't care less, as long as they live high on the hog

and Bush's remark about working three jobs to make ends meet being "uniquely American" ranks right up there with Marie Antoinette's "Let 'em eat cake."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. recommended and I agree

there are huge changes ahead for the nation, and Bush appears to only be interested in helping his fellow millionaires. I have no 401K and withdrew my IRA money years ago when I changed my lifestyle. Somehow, I think the fall will be easier for me than for those who trusted in the system, and see all their money and their plans go down the drain.

Use what cash you still have to pay down all debt, stock up on food and seeds, and get ready to ride out the storm.

[B Calm]

16. When people realize their 401K and IRA's stock investment

portfolios are not going to do anything for the economy while big companies are taking their profits to invest in China, India, Brazil and eastern Europe, working people will start to panic. The corporations are using the USA like a cash cow to be milked, harvested and to funnel investment funds internationally. Industry prefers not to make any further investments in the USA, there are cheaper and more plentiful natural resources elsewhere to exploit with cheaper labor and younger developing consumer markets outside the US. The good times have come to an end, and no one dares tell you this, because it might cause a panic.

[SoCalDem]

17. We are the United States of 'ATM'ica..and sooner or later

we'll stick that card into the slot, and NOTHING will come out :(

We live frugally, and are using some of our equity (not all of it) to repair some long-avoided problems our poor old house has been suffering from.. If the equity is gonna disappear soon anyway, we decided to use some of it , in the hopes that worst-comes-to-worst, our house would at least be sellable..

We have a big 4 BR and we only really need a 2 BR, now that the "birdies have flown the nest".. We have downsized a lot, but mostly because I hate conspicuous consumerism, and we really don;t need much these days:)

[B Calm]

18. Corporations have betrayed the public trust with dishonest business

practices, cooked books, pro forma accounting and insider trading. Now the question is will the public forgive them?

[SoCalDem]

19. We aways do.. about every 30 years.. (Think that's an "accident"?)

Every generation, the public (middle class, because there are so many of us ..or used to be )are "asked" to clean up a HUGE governmental mess..often caused by hubris and neglect.

the "new" crew will not dare call it a TAX INCREASE, because that might lose them some votes..so they call it "reform..repair..fixing.. securing..saving".. all the euphemisms they love so much cannot change the fact that THEY screw up..and we CLEAN up..

Have we EVER heard a politician say.."We screwed up.. we thought xxx would work, and we messed things up even more than when we started.. we are sorry, and will work day and night to see that YOU are not hurt by OUR mistakes... "

Someone even wrote a song about that mythical scenario.. "That'll be the Day"..:)

[B Calm]

41. I think before all the corporations flee the USA to exploit

other countries we need a wealth tax as a recovery mechanism for all the benefits large businesses received at the expense of 99% of the population and for protection services provided by the US government... We need a judgment day before it's too late!

[SoCalDem]

37. The "public" has the attention span of a gnat.. That's why the "bad guys"

always land on their feet.. The mantra of "Move forward" is popular because that's what we have always done.. Move on..forget about the mess...let someone else clean it up.. just keep moving forward.. Just like zombies.. they move forward,don't they? Never mind the fact that they are ZOMBIES:eyes:

[gordianot]

20. When the other shoe drops Democrats will be expected to clean up.

Just how would this mess be cleaned up?

[SoCalDem]

26. This will be ONE HUGE mess

and there is a difference this time.. During the S&L fiasco, it got scant coverage in papers, there was NO 24-7 media, few(if any) talk radio shows or internet to drive the story. There was only newspapers (dry reading for most people) and an occasional mention on a 30 minute newscast...

The dot-com bubble was portrayed as "rich people flying too close to the sun with their wacky schemes".

The country is MUCH more polarized these days.


It will be ugly and violence would not surprise me.

UAL will set the trend..GM will go there..so will Delta.. This is the final dagger into the hearts of unions.. Like the traffic controllers before them, the airline/auto unions will be next on the block.. Walmart is destroying the UFCW unions in its mission.

Scarce jobs, and desperate workers for ANY wage, will aid in the dismantling of the remaining unions. This is why immigration "works" for the ruling class (no matter how loudly they squawk).

All the advances we took for granted are being undone...at warp speed.

In one generation we have seen or will see the undoing of:

public education
financial safety nets
social security
fair taxation (according to ability/obligation to pay)
adequate/available/affordable energy (auto and home)
customer-driven banking/credit organizations
affordable/available health care
environmental protections

and so much more...

8 years of Reagan/4 of Poppy and 8 of *² adds up to a rollback of so many things that came before and laid the foundation of our nation. Roosevelt/Johnson built the "house" on that foundation, and in 20 years of rabid rightwingers in control have us all huddled in one corner of the dark basement, as they swing the wrecking ball at the house..

When we emerge from that basement, what is left will NOT be easy to rebuild in today's political climate.

[gordianot]

31. Good points. Media (which I have abandoned) will want it quick,

without repercussions, profitable, and in line with returning the status quo.

Our refuse is currently our greatest export, we should have a lot more of that. Maybe we will become a nation of garbage-men/women.

[LiberallyInclined]

34. Clinton Deserves his share of credit too...

NAFTA
WTO
Telecommunications Act
welfare reform

the Democrats haven't been as good at checking and balancing as they could/should have been.

[SoCalDem]

35. True, but in fairness to him

he was hobbled for a good part of his presidency...by the rightwingers in congress and the media.. I think he spent a large part of his presidency trying to "play all the angles" and stay of of the line of fire.. It didn't work that well..

[newportdadde]

23. Well the ingredients are all certainly there for a disaster.

A dollar loosing value with rising interest rates and inflation.. maybe they are attempting to carefully inflate away US debt. Stagnate wages coupled with rising health care costs and gas prices as well as just inflation in everyday goods.. I mean going to get food is a completely different adventure then just 3 years ago. I see stagflation as a possibility here, Krugman has talked about it as well.
The economy right now is on life support and that machine has 'real estate bubble' written on the side of it. The insane market, the no money down loans, interest only loans, idiots borrowing out 120% to pay off credit cards only to run up the cards again is keeping us afloat. Remember tech stocks in 2000, thats real estate now.

Honestly all you have to do is ask yourself, how can we possible outsource all of these blue and white collar jobs and get away with it? We are taking folks making 40k, 60k etc, cut their wages by half, pull their health care, raise housing 25%+ double gas prices on them and then on top of that watch as foods goes up, milk etc.

It has to correct itself and it will and it is going to be ugly. Of course then an FDR type Democrat will come into clean up the mess, he or she is out there now somewhere, things will turn around and then the greed will set in again, the apathy, the appreciation for what this new president did will slip away and we will do it all over again.

[Tux]

24. The only good thing about it is

Homes will become cheap enough for those like me who have money stashed for a home but who have no job or a very low paying job. Middle class will lose money and maybe homes (middle class raised myself) but for the working class and the working poor, this is a chance to own a decent house.

[Lowell]

25. What Happens when foreign investors

decide the Euro is more stable and convert to a Euro based economy. Countries like Japan will call in their chips and we will no longer own this country. Isn't this one of the prime reasons we invaded Iraq? Saddam was seriously contemplating the Euro to replace the dollar in his oil marketing.

[Paulie]

27. Sadam DID replace the Dollar with the Euro for Oil transactions

And the exchange rate differences ment he kept the differences.

Having OPEC change to the Euro, that's a big enough issue to go to WAR about....

[ArkDem]

29. Words of Wisdom, Foxy Woxy!

[KharmaTrain]

38. They Own The Ball...Control The Books

I totally agree with all that's posted, however, I've felt this way for most of my life...I did a college final on a large market collapse based on high interest rates and large personal debt in 1979 (got an A :bounce:) and that was when the economy was far less screwed up than it is now.

Wall Street continues to play smoke and mirrors on earnings and their projections to create that artificially high market you accurately portray and how this could really screw a lot of people locked in pensions and 401s. Most have little or no control over these portfolios...many have no clue what they're even about. They sound so "future" when you're in your 20s or 30s.

Credit has been a ticking time bomb, but it keeps getting papered over. Debt ceilings are raised, new financing schemes come to light, games are played and the hole gets deeper. I've seen economists consistantly claim this game can go on endlessly since money or "assets" can be created out of thin air that are used for "credit". Just look at Enron for an example...and see how little it really affected the big players in the market. It didn't, just took out the little guys.

We could ride this cycle for a while longer. There's still a lot of money being made from what's left of the middle class and the treasury. The feeding frenzy won't end until someone really screws up so bad it shuts down an entire industry.

[SoCalDem]

42. The big guys always land on their feet

The guys at Enron KNEW what they were doing, and they made the timetable.. They knew just when to pull their fat out of the fire..and the press just pays lipservice to the "financial misdeeds".. They are rarely called CRIMES.. A guy steals $100 from 7-11 and he's hunted down, tried, convicted and put away for a long time..but CEOs steal BILLIONS and ruin thousands of lives, and they have plenty of the ill-gotten loot to spend on the shiftiest lawyers you can imagine,,Even when they DO get locked up, they usually emerge...write a book, go on the lecture circuit, and have their rich pals (who they did NOT rat out) set them up again..

I mean ..when you are down to your "last couple of million bucks", you still have it pretty good..

[rucky]

43. FYI: PayPal Lets you keep your $$$ in Euros

thought you might like to know.

[RBHam]

44. Honey, that other shoe might be 9-11 Part Deux...

The bastards are desperate now...

And that damn Constitution keeps getting in their way...

[SoCalDem]

47. I expect them to start ramming through changes to it..soon

Doesn't it only take 2/3 to add amendments? Those pesky red states, combined with vapor voting, could help them have ut their way., Look out belowwwwwwwww.

[RBHam]

48. This should be taken as a harbinger...

You can find all these stories at legitgov.org

CIA Plans to Shift Work to Denver --Domestic Division Would Be Moved --The CIA has plans to relocate the headquarters of its domestic division, which is responsible for operations and recruitment in the United States, from the CIA's Langley headquarters to Denver, a move designed to promote innovation , according to U.S. intelligence and law enforcement officials. A U.S. intelligence official said the planned move, confirmed by three other government officials, was being undertaken "for operational reasons."

Hmmm. If Washington is nuked, the Federal Disaster Plan calls for Denver to be the back up capital...

U.S. beefs up military units in the Pacific --B-2 bombers, F-15E fighters in Guam, Aegis ships in Japan 06 May 2005 --The U.S. military is beefing up its military capabilities in the Pacific by deploying high-tech aircraft and Navy vessels amid worsening assessments of the prospects of an early solution of the North Korean nuclear standoff. B-2 Spirit stealth bombers and F-15E fighter jets were deployed in Guam recently on a rotation basis. Experts noted the bombers and fighters have the range to strike North Korea's nuclear facilities and high-profile stocks of missiles in the event of any conflict.

Well, well... here America is, over-extended in Iraq, massive deficits which are being underwritten by our future enemies - the Chinese? We all know N Korea does what China tells them too...

The Quagmire --As the Iraq war drags on, it's beginning to look a lot like Vietnam --by Robert Dreyfuss

"Iraqi insurgents are stepping up the pace of their attacks, unleashing eleven deadly bombings on April 29th alone. Many of the 150,000 Iraqi police and soldiers hastily trained by U.S. troops have deserted or joined the insurgents. The cost of the war now tops $192 billion, rising by $1 billion a week, and the corpses are piling up: Nearly 1,600 American soldiers and up to 100,000 Iraqi civilians are dead, as well as 177 allied troops and 229 private contractors... Even if the United Nations agreed to step in, there is little or no chance that the administration will internationalize control over Iraq. In the face of a full-scale civil war in Iraq, says a source close to the U.S. military, Bush intends to go it alone. "Our policy is to make Iraq a colony," he says. "We won't let go."

The BFEE is leading America and the world towards a conflagration that could make WW II look like a quaint disagreement...