Officials Urge Wide Use of Flu Vaccine-Outbreak This Year Could Be Serious

[cthrumatrix]

Officials Urge Wide Use of Flu Vaccine
Supplies Will Be on Time and Plentiful; Outbreak This Year Could Be Serious
By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 24, 2003; Page A12


Government and private health officials called yesterday for much wider use of the influenza vaccine, which can potentially prevent tens of thousands of deaths each year.

This winter's version of the vaccine will be available on time and in sufficient quantity for everyone who needs it or is expected to want it, several experts said. Some people may qualify for a new form of influenza vaccine, which is sprayed into the nose rather than injected.

more

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55375-2003Sep23.html

I don't trust this govt. sticking a needle in my arm. It's sad that it has come to this.

[teryang]

1. Not a word about thimersol

<She added that research recently showed that elderly people who are vaccinated have a lower risk for heart attacks and strokes than those who forgo the shot.>

What about the risk for alzheimers or other mental diseases?

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Of course there's nothing about thimerosal.

Alzheimer's is caused by protein deposits in the brain; last time I checked, mercury didn't cause those. Nor is the amount of mercury present in the thimerosal preservative (which is not used in most vaccines nowadays anyway) enough to lead any serious effects; the concentrations of mercury may be measured in micrograms (millionths of a gram).

All this nonsense about thimerosal got started because of a process of faulty deductive reasoning on the part of parents of autistic children: autism generally becomes apparent between 16-24 months (roughly the same age at which children are vaccinated). Mistaking correlation for causation, these parents reached the conclusion that the vaccinations (in particular, the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine) were responsible for the autism they observed in their children.

The only problems here are that the MMR vaccine doesn't CONTAIN thimerosal; that recent advances in knowledge of autistic neurology indicate that the neurological differences are, and in fact must be, present from the time of differentiation of neurological tissue in utero; and that a recent, extremely extensive European study discovered no link after tracking groups of vaccinated and unvaccinated children and discovering higher rates of autistic disorders in the unvaccinated group.

Yet another example of mass hysteria and poor reasoning triumphing over logic. (And I happen to be autistic, and have been led to research the topic rather extensively; I know whereof I speak.)

[stickdog]

31. Your namesake is turning over in his pages.

Are you going to get your shots, Spider?

Can you tell us all the ingredients in this vaccine?

Who makes it?

What longterm longitudinal testing was done to ensure its safety?

Is there any other information you can give us that proves that the risks of flu are substantially worse than the risk of this vaccine?

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. In response to your questions:

I'm going to get vaccinated, see no reason not to.

The ingredients: Inactive influenza virus, inert suspension medium, and preservative.

Who makes it: Parke-Davis, Pasteur, Wyeth.

Long-term longitudinal testing: Decades of data on vaccinations and adverse reactions to same; standard double-blind controlled experimental testing during the approval phase...et cetera...

And as to the risks of flu vs. risks of vaccination: The flu killed fifty million people less than a century ago. A significantly higher number are now vaccinated annually. The rate of incidence of adverse reactions to vaccination is 0.1% (for all reactions, including superficial ones such as rash...for serious adverse reactions, it's about 0.02%). I think I'll take those odds.

[stickdog]

45. What if I don't trust Parke-Davis, Pasteur or Wyeth?

Or even generic responses from you?

Or even everything that comes out of the CDC or WHO?

Would that make me insane? A nut?

See, I want to know EXACTLY what's in something that gets injected into my arm even though I'm currrently perfectly healthy.

I want to know EXACTLY who made it.

I want to know EXACTLY what process they used to determine the inactive influenza strain, how they deactivated it, and what trials have been done on EXACTLY this strain of virus deactivated in this manner.

But please, you go ahead and get your shot. I'm sure Parke-Davis, Pasteur and Wyeth only have your best interests in mind.

[LibLabUK]

46. .

"What if I don't trust Parke-Davis, Pasteur or Wyeth?"

Don't get the immunisation. No one's forcing you to.

"Or even everything that comes out of the CDC or WHO?"

Who do you trust for medical advice and who do you consult with as the basis of your opinions?

"See, I want to know EXACTLY what's in something that gets injected into my arm even though I'm currrently perfectly healthy."

All medicines come with patient information leaflets, and these detail the ingredients.

"I want to know EXACTLY who made it."

His name's Bob... :D

"I want to know EXACTLY what process they used to determine the inactive influenza strain, how they deactivated it, and what trials have been done on EXACTLY this strain of virus deactivated in this manner."

All that info is availble to the public. Depending on the vaccine it may not have any virus in it at all. If you look at the www.bnf.org (British National Formulary) they list the methods of inactivation for vaccines containing virus.

[stickdog]

48. Can you link me to any of this information?

Specifically for this year's flu vaccine?

And would you recommend a hysterectomy while I'm at it?

[LibLabUK]

50. Hmmm

"Can you link me to any of this information?"

How's about www.bnf.org (British National Formulary - you obviously missed the link in my previous post), www.mca.gov.uk (Medicines Control Agency), www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi (PubMed - you can search the literature yourself), http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/ (British Medical Journal), and www.thelancet.com (The Lancet).

There will be information on this year's vaccines available at these sites, I haven't got the time to search them myself.

"And would you recommend a hysterectomy while I'm at it?"

I'm a microbiologist not a gynaecologist. Quite what this has to do with flu jabs I'm not sure. Did it have a point, or did you sneeze onto the keyboard?

[dofus]

2. I swear that EVERY year

we're all told to get flu shots because this year's outbreak is going to be bad.

Personally, I don't have any particular risk factors, and I'm only 55, so I never get a flu shot. I'm not sure when I last had the flu -- it's probably been thirty years or more. Maybe longer.

I'm still willing to chance getting the flu, because I'm aware that the immunity conferred by a natural case is better than the immunity confered by the vaccine. Although I'll stress that this is a personal decision, and repeat that I'm still fairly young, and have no real risk factors that would make getting the vaccine better than getting the flu.

[LibLabUK]

3. Hmm

"I'm still willing to chance getting the flu, because I'm aware that the immunity conferred by a natural case is better than the immunity confered by the vaccine."

Two things wrong with this reasoning.

1. The "natural case" may kill you. Influenza has a nasty habit of killing people, the 1918 pandemic wiped out millions of healthy (low risk factor) individuals.

2. Immunity is immunity. How you develop it doesn't make a difference on how "good" it is.

[newyawker99]

5. Hi LibLabUK!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[dofus]

14. Actually, how you acquire immunity DOES matter.

Those who survived a natural case of smallpox were immune forever. Those of us immunized by the smallpox vaccine have a limited (10, 20, maybe 40 years) time of immunity.

Same with the early MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella). The first generation of kids who got the MMR vaccine were found to need boosters 12 to 20 years later. Those of us who got our immunity the old-fashioned are immune for life.

The 1918 flu epidemic killed mainly the population who'd never been exposed to that kind of flu (a type A). The reason the elderly made it through that epidemic with a proportionately lower death toll, was that they'd all been exposed to a similar type A about 50 years earlier.

There's reason to think that things like asthma are on the rise precisely because kids are kept in a too sanitized environment, not exposed to all sorts of things when they're young and can develop appropriate resistance. The human immune system is quite amazing, and during our early years is intended to come up against all sorts of foreign invaders precisely so that later on it can recognize those invaders and protect us. If the immune system is underchallenge, we'll get sick more often later on. If over-challenged, we may be at risk of auto-immune diseases. This last is my personal interpretation of things I've read recently about the immune system and how it works. I refer you to "Yellow Fever, Black Goddess: The Coevolution of People and Plagues" by Christopher Wills.

Notice my two objections are with the usual hype that this season is going to be a bad flu season, which in my memory has been said every year for at least the last ten years. Yes, someday we're bound to have an actual flue epidemic that kills lots and lots of people, but maybe not, not with modern medicine jumping in to help out. My other objection is the idea that everyone, regardless of personal health/age/immunity status ought to get the flu shot.

If you personally think it's a good idea, go ahead. Get one. You'll probably be better off for it. All I know is that I'm the healthiest person I know. And I still don't get flu shots. Maybe in ten years. Maybe.

edited for spelling.

[LibLabUK]

16. Well...

"Those who survived a natural case of smallpox were immune forever. Those of us immunized by the smallpox vaccine have a limited (10, 20, maybe 40 years) time of immunity."

I can't find any published data supporting these figures (searching on PubMed/Medline).

"Same with the early MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella). The first generation of kids who got the MMR vaccine were found to need boosters 12 to 20 years later. Those of us who got our immunity the old-fashioned are immune for life."

True, although obtaining immunity "the old fashioned way" involved running the gauntlet of being infected with those diseases.

My statement stands, if you're immunised by vaccine you are as immune as someone who caught the disease for the duration of the vaccine.

If the choice is between getting an injection every 10 years to confer immunity, or having to suffer the disease, then bring on the needle. The risks you expose yourself/your kids to the "natural" way are unacceptable (this is without mentioning the breakdown of communal immunity if "the natural way" becomes popular, and the dangers inherent in that).

"The 1918 flu epidemic killed mainly the population who'd never been exposed to that kind of flu (a type A). The reason the elderly made it through that epidemic with a proportionately lower death toll, was that they'd all been exposed to a similar type A about 50 years earlier."

I'm not sure how this supports your assertion.


"My other objection is the idea that everyone, regardless of personal health/age/immunity status ought to get the flu shot."

I agree that not everyone needs to vaccinated for flu, I personally have never had a flu vaccination and to my knowledge never had influenza.

Definately an interesting discussion though :)

[dofus]

19. I don't have the patience at the moment

to do an internet search, but in all the hype that came out a while back about Iraq or some other country starting a smallpox epidemic, it was widely disseminated that the immunity conferred by the smallpox vaccination would wear off. It's why back in the days when we needed proof of a smallpox vaccination to return to the U.S., you needed to have been vaccinated within three years. I went through a time (this was in the early and mid-70's) when I got vaccinated about four times in eight years, and the last one didn't even "take", meaning I didn't get any reaction from it, because my immunity was at that point so high from frequent vaccinations.

If vaccines conferred permanent immunity, the way getting the disease itself does, then why the need for boosters?

Personally, I'm actually quite conflicted over the benefits of natural immunity (getting the disease in question) and the great benefits of vaccines. I think there's inevitably a trade-off, and I make certain decisions of my own.

And my statement about the people who'd had the type A flu some fifty years earlier not getting sick and dying in 1918 supports my point perfectly. Getting the disease and getting immunization that way strikes me as superior to getting a vaccine every year, which may or may not confer the immunity you want, or, as some people have reported, getting quite ill for a couple of weeks afterwards.

Again, being relatively young and extremely healthy definitely affects my personal choice here.

[LibLabUK]

41. well..

"If vaccines conferred permanent immunity, the way getting the disease itself does, then why the need for boosters?"

I think we're arguing at cross purposes. I've never said that vaccines offer permanent immunity, I merely said that the immmunity you recieve from a vaccine is exactly the same (as in effectiveness at preventing infection) as that which is conferred by having suffered he disease.

"Personally, I'm actually quite conflicted over the benefits of natural immunity (getting the disease in question) and the great benefits of vaccines. I think there's inevitably a trade-off, and I make certain decisions of my own."

Which is fair enough. I'm absolutely in favour of people making informed decisions which you obviously are.

"And my statement about the people who'd had the type A flu some fifty years earlier not getting sick and dying in 1918 supports my point perfectly."

There was NO flu vaccine back then. How does this support anything but the assertion that being infected by a virus can produce an immunity to further infection? I've never disputed this fact.

[dofus]

47. You don't see any difference between an immunity

that's permanent and one that wears off?

I do.

[stickdog]

32. Are you going to get your shots, LLUK?

Can you tell us all of the ingredients in this vaccine?

Who makes it? What is their safety history?

What longterm longitudinal testing was done to ensure the safety of this specific vaccine? What were the results?

Is there any other information you can give us that proves that the risks of flu are substantially worse than the risk of this vaccine? For which population groups?

[LibLabUK]

44. well

"Are you going to get your shots, LLUK?"

Nope, never do. I'm not in an at-risk group and the advice in the UK is never (as best as I can recall) for "everyone to get immunised".

"Can you tell us all of the ingredients in this vaccine?

There are quite a few vaccines available:

Inactivated Influenza Vaccine (Split Virion) (Aventis Pasteur)
Inactivated Influenza Vaccine (Surface Antigen) (Evans Vaccines)
Agrippal® (Surface Antigen)(Wyeth)
Begrivac® (Split Virion)(Wyeth)
Fluarix® (Split Virion)(GSK)
Fluvirin® (Surface Antigen)(Evans Vaccines)
Inflexal® V (Surface Antigen)(Aventis Pasteur)
Influvac Sub-unit® (Surface Antigen)(Solvay)
Mastaflu® (Surface Antigen)(MASTA)

Source: British National Formulary www.bnf.org

"What longterm longitudinal testing was done to ensure the safety of this specific vaccine? What were the results?"

The longterm testing would be in line with the ongoing monitoring that is done with all drugs by agencies like the MCA in the UK or the FDA in the US. I don't have the time to dig through their reports.

As with all medical procedures, the decision to treat finally rests with the patient, you either choose to have the immunisation or you don't.

I don't feel I need to have the influenza jab, but if I were in a high-risk group I would.

Maybe you could change my opinion... what concerns should I have with the vaccines on offer this year?

What reports have been published in the scientific/medical literature that suggest harmful effects of immunisation with any of the vaccines above (or their constituents)?

[Timefortruth]

22. My grandmother lost 5 siblings to whooping cough.

Almost no one gets it anymore. Because of vaccines it is also true that death from infectious diseases in childhood has declined dramatically. It could very well be that the children with asthma today are the ones who would have died of diphtheria without a vaccine; their survival is a tribute to the vaccine, not their asthma

[stickdog]

33. Diseases have their own life cycles.

With or without vaccines.

Correlation or causation?

In some cases the data is clear. In most it is not.

[kanrok]

4. I get the shot every year

Thanks for the reminder, BTW. I'll call my doc today. There have been occasional years when I did not get the shot, and I got the flu. The shot may make you a tad under the weather in the 48 hours immediately after getting it. But it's 100 times better than getting the flu. I try to get the shot every year. I missed once or twice, and really regretted it. I've gotten them under Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II. If there is some kind of governmental conspiracy, I guess I'm now "immune" from it.

[stickdog]

34. Great. I've gotten the flu once in the last 20 years.

Right after I got my one and only "swine flu" shot.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. I'm as paranoid as anybody but the risks of a flu shot are less than

the risks involved if you have the flu. It's been suggested that the early versions of the Salk polio vaccine may have been contaminated and caused the development of chronic autoimmune diseases in later life. I have one of these chronic diseases and I'm not exactly happy about it. The other side of it, though, is that an awful lot of kids died of polio during my pre-vaccine childhood and an awful lot more were crippled by it. My parents did the right thing to have me get a polio shot back in third grade, even if that's why I'm sick today. And I get flu shots because the flu could be very dangerous for me.

[MuseRider]

12. My story exactly

and now I must add the pneumonia vaccine since getting influenza last year (I didn't get my vaccine, I forgot while taking care of my brother)that progressed to pneumonia. I was told when my autoimmune disease was diagnosed that those old vaccines were suspect. I guess it must be easier to live with what I have now than some post polio cases I've seen.

[stickdog]

35. Well, that's a ringing testimonial to the safety of vaccines

if I ever heard one!

[lazarus]

7. When I was in the Air Force

They made us take a flu shot every year. First year I managed to not get the shot, I was fine and healthy.

They figured that out and ordered me to take a shot. I was so ill I was restricted to quarters for two weeks.

Same thing happened the next year.

The next year, I avoided getting the shot. Didn't get sick. Until some bright boy in personnel figured out I hadn't had the shot yet.

Two weeks restricted to quarters, very very ill.

So I don't take flu shots anymore. :|

[Ilsa]

10. Will they exempt you for having bad reactions to vax?

How do they handle that? Just ingnore the reaction and keep insisting on vax?

Or do they discharge people they can't use as "guinea pigs" for vaccines? (No offense intended, this was relayed to me by an ex-air force woman, a convert from Bush to ABB.)

[lazarus]

24. no exemption

They just made me keep taking it. I'm sure if it had resulted in hospitalisaton, they might have reconsidered, but I just got extremely sick, so what did they care?

[frank frankly]

26. right-o, Ilsa

anyboy want to take any of the extra smallpox vaccine?
i am very suspicious of these things

[Ilsa]

8. I'm only concerned about thimerosal

in young children and pregnant women, where it may cause developmental problems, but that's just me.

The pre-antibiotic 1918 pandemic killed millions, and the antibiotics we have now will certainly help, but may not be able to control just Any infection.

I get the flu shot most years, and I might get it this year; I haven't decided.

[depakid]

30. Antibiotics won't do jack against influenza

although they can treat secondary infections. You're quite right about 1918. People don't seem to realize that a nasty flu strain is more virulent than SARS.

[spinbaby]

9. I must be feeling cynical today...

I can't help but to notice that the sudden recommendation that EVERYONE needs to be vaccinated coincides with a really good supply of flu vacccine.

A couple of years ago when vaccine was in short supply the official word was that only the old and the sick needed it.

[Ilsa]

11. Drug companies need their money. n/t

[havocmom]

15. and they didn't make $$ on the big push for smallpox vacinations

despite all the terra hype involved.

Hate the idea of getting the flu, but distrust several things involved with the shots:

First and foremost, just don't believe the drug companies have anybody's best intrests in mind but their own. They want to rush items through testing at the FDA instead of letting the pros take time in really checking safety AND they want all sorts of limits on liabilities in case a drug does cause problems. IF they are so safe, why the need for liability limits?

Secondly, just don't have much faith in the credibility of a govenment which is bought and paid for by the drug compaines to give me accurate and reasonable information or even best guesses about projections for the flu season.

Thirdly, isn't flu a virus? Don't viruses mutate often? Isn't the flu vaccine de jour just a guess at what might be helpful in fighting off a flu that particular year?

Oh, and then there are all the first hand stories I hear about folks getting the shot then getting sick for days. They don't seem to have it much better than me if/when I get flu.

And in the back of my paranoid, feeble little mind, I can't help but recall revelations about how our government allowed for various testing diseases and drugs on unsuspecting and unwilling people. Add those memories with that bit from not too long ago about some brainiacs at the Pentagon trying to figure a way to administer tranquilizing drugs into a mass population in order to prevent mass casualities in the event that the US military ever had to fight an urban war.
Yeah, I'll roll up my sleeves for these guys... NOT!

[LibLabUK]

17. hmm

Thirdly, isn't flu a virus?

Yes.


Don't viruses mutate often?

Yes.

Isn't the flu vaccine de jour just a guess at what might be helpful in fighting off a flu that particular year?

No, it's not quite guesswork.

The Influenza research centres around the world conduct epidemiological studies, and produce a forecast for outbreaks for the following year.

It has to be done this way because of the time it takes to produce vaccine specific to the strains of influenza thought most likeley to pose the largest problems.



Oh, and then there are all the first hand stories I hear about folks getting the shot then getting sick for days. They don't seem to have it much better than me if/when I get flu.

Some people have a reaction to the vaccine which mimics th symptoms of flu but it's usually over a 48 hour period. However, if you actually get influenza, you will be sick for a month or more and could actually die.

Influenza isn't "a cold".

[stickdog]

36. You can sicker than two days from a shot. You can also infect others.

I know firsthand.

You can also get over the flu in a few days without a shot.

I know that firsthand as well.

I really hate fear mongering.

[LibLabUK]

43. Hmm

"You can also get over the flu in a few days without a shot."

If you get over it in a few days, you haven't had influenza, it's that simple.

"I really hate fear mongering."

So do I, but I dislike anecodotal evidence more.

[OldSoldier]

21. Some do

Thirdly, isn't flu a virus? Don't viruses mutate often?

Some viruses mutate often, some don't mutate at all. The flu virus mutates.

[latebloomer]

13. As Lily Tomlin said

No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up.

I distrust the pharmaceutical industry, and vaccines in general.

[hang a left]

20. On the same page as Lilly

after reading all the articles on fromthewilderness.com, I will NEVER let my children or extended family get "government approved" vaccines.

[DrGonzoLives]

18. You're right

They say this every year...

[Timefortruth]

23. In the years that there is a shortage

those at the highest risk from severe complications or death are encouraged to get the shot and the young and healthy are discouraged so that there is sufficient supply for the needy. When there is adequate supply everyone is encouraged because increased vaccination helps stem the spread of the illness throughout the population, protecting the at risk group even more.

[grasswire]

27. I was reallllly sick last year...

...with an influenza bug. Really, really sick. For weeks. So I'm getting the shot this year.

[stickdog]

38. Cool! Y'all can take mine for me then!

Thanks for helping a poor soul like me out!

Get yer shots, Gomers!

Just stay away from me for a couple weeks after, ya hear!

[SmileyBoy]

28. I can't remember if I ever got the flu. I only get colds.

In the winter, I could catch maybe two of them. In the summer, usually one. I'm prone to colds. Wish they had a vaccine for that.

[depakid]

29. If you ever got a bad case of the flu, you'd remember- trust me

back in 97/98, my X got her flu shot. Yours truly didn't. Turns out that it was a really nasty strain that year, and I got almost as sick as I've ever been (only adult rubella was worse). Serious bone and joint ache, nauseating headache, 103 fever, with sweats & chills, and major fluid inflamation in the lungs in the lungs (which caused secondary bacterial bronchitis). I was too sick to do anything for over a week, and wasn't back to normal strength for over 6 weeks.

Flue shots cost $10 or so, and they're totally safe, tinfoil hatters notwihstanding.

Another thing- serious outbreaks typically come in 3-5 year cycles- and the last one was in 97-98. So we're due. Take my advice, if you're around kids or people in the healthcare profession, get vaccinated. It may prove to be the best $10 you've ever spent.

[SmileyBoy]

37. No wait, I had pneumonia in 1993. I was in the 5th grade.

Would that count as the flu?? One other time I had pneumonia was when I was four.

And no, I don't work around children (though I used to) or in health care. I routinely get my hands dirty, tho.

[depakid]

40. If you're from the Northwest

you're probably getting "the crud," which is annoying and very contagious, but most people don't get all that sick from it, though it can lead to serious pnuemonia. What "the crud" actually is, in terms of etiology, I don't know, but it's some kind of bronchitis bug that goes around pretty much every year in Portland. It's definately not influenza.

You probably don't need to get vaccinated for the flu unless you're around people at risk of getting and spreading disease (usually through coughing). I didn't get one last year, even though I'm around healthcare workers all the time at school- there wasn't much of an outbreak. But at the first sign that it may be a bad year (the WHO and CDC sites will give you early warning) I get one.

[VOX]

39. I tend to get bronchitis, so I get the shot every year now...

Little stick, no big pain, haven't had the flu in years.

[Paulie]

49. I'm all set

I have my WHO spec rehydration salts, so I'm ready. Taste nasty, but they were cheap. :D