Mother torches rapist.

[tallahasseedem]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/26/wrape26.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/26/ixworld.html



A Spanish mother has taken revenge on the man who raped her 13-year-old daughter at knifepoint by dousing him in petrol and setting him alight. He died of his injuries in hospital on Friday.

Antonio Cosme Velasco Soriano, 69, had been sent to jail for nine years in 1998, but was let out on a three-day pass and returned to his home town of Benejúzar, 30 miles south of Alicante, on the Costa Blanca.

While there, he passed his victim's mother in the street and allegedly taunted her about the attack. He is said to have called out "How's your daughter?", before heading into a crowded bar.

Shortly after, the woman walked into the bar, poured a bottle of petrol over Soriano and lit a match. She watched as the flames engulfed him, before walking out.

The woman fled to Alicante, where she was arrested the same evening. When she appeared in court the next day in the town of Orihuela, she was cheered and clapped by a crowd, who shouted "Bravo!" and "Well done!"


So what do you think? I say, good for her. Flame away! (metaphorically of course)

[Langis]

1. I agree and would have done the same....

[kikiek]

2. I say good for her too.

[bpilgrim]

3. he only got what he asked for

play with fire... you get TORCHED :evilgrin:

peace

[losdiablosgato]

94. I got no problem with this.

[rustydog]

4. I would probably want to fuck up anyone who harmed my children

I would like to think I am above personal revenge and trust in the justice system otherwise, I am no better than the rapist, murderer, corporate CEO. I would also expect to be held accountable for my actions if I did decide to turn into a vigilante.

[JuniperLea]

5. people have gotten away with claiming insanity

i'm sure there are many who would go temporarily insane when faced with someone who injured their child. can one submit such a plea in spain? i hope so.

can you see the parents of our soldiers who have been killed in iraq line up with petrol and matches... ?

[CottonBear]

8. I think that the father of a dead soldier set himself on fire last year

after the officers came to his home to tell him "we regret to inform you..." :(

[MichiDem]

12. I think

he set the military car on fire, not himself.

[Incitatus]

78. It was both.

--The father then walked into the garage, picked up a propane tank, a lighting device and a can of gasoline he used to douse the van, police Capt. Tony Rode said. He smashed the van's window, got inside and set it ablaze, despite attempts by the Marines to stop him, Rode said.

The Marines, reservists who are members of a military Casualty Assistance Calls Officer team, pulled Arredondo from the burning vehicle and extinguished the flames on him, police said. None of the Marines was injured but the van was gutted by the fire, Marines spokesman Maj. Scott Mack said.

http://www.nbc6.net/news/3680887/detail.html

[Eloriel]

118. Wow -- you're going to fit in here quite well

Johnny on the spot with the info + links!! Well done, and welcome to DU!

:bounce:

[robertpaulsen]

69. Yes, I can see the parents of our soldiers killed in Iraq line up...

But then I wake up.;)

[SteppingRazor]

6. Mixed feelings.

On the one hand, I say prosecute the lady for -- at the very least -- murder 2 (or the Spanish equivalent thereof).

On the other hand, if I had a 13-year-old daughter and someone raped her, and then I got ahold of the bastard after he TAUNTED me about it, he would beg to be set on fire just to put an end to his agonizing life.

[ComerPerro]

45. Maybe bring charges, prosecute

That would seem to satisfy the circumstances. Really I think the guy was asking for it if he did indeed taunt her, but she overreacted.

I would certainly imagine that prosecutors would be able to work a deal, especially if she has a clean record.

Hell, they may even be able to say self-defense (could be construed as a thread) or temporary insanity.


Tough call

[prodigal_green]

134. In a situation like this, there is no such thing

as "overreacted"

[Maestro]

72. My thoughts exactly

but I would rather beat the tar out of him with my bare hands.

[atre]

82. Second degree murder? No way

If having someone brazenly admit to raping your daughter isn't adequate provocation (all that's required to kick you down to voluntary manslaughter), then I don't know what is -- other than the classic coming-home-to-catch-your-spouse-in-paro-delicti situation, of course.

[Auntie Bush]

96. Sorry...I think raping your child is worse than raping or

having sex with your wife.

[rawtribe]

7. We should all

take the law into our own hands. We could save a ton of money on courts, lawyers and police. If someone wrongs you, kill them. What a beautiful would it would be.

:wtf:

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prayin4rain]

26. Well, that is not what happened....

He didn't "wrong" her, he raped her child... and was punished, then years later he was taunting the child and back in an area where he could do it again..... Not exactly the same thing as if someone wrongs you, kill them.

[FourStarDemocrat]

34. Rape is about control and violence.

By coming back and taunting her it was like he was psychologically trying to rape her again-- and posing a threat.

I probrably would have been furious enough too to have done the same thing as the mother. Not that vigilante jutice is right, but I would have no problem killing anyone who seriously harmed my children.

[Bluebear]

35. Hypocthetical

Say the same thing happened and he served 25 years. On his way out of prison would you still have no problem killing him? Just for discussion's sake.

[FourStarDemocrat]

49. Well...

Probrably not because in that case the justice system would have served a more "fair" sentence and my children would have been well into adulthoodhood by that time--and of course their would be a larger time separation, therefore it's likely that the trauma/threat wouldn't be there. It's all hypothetical anyway, as you say. :)



spelling edit

[Bluebear]

55. Clearly the sentence as not long enough

And, again, no "weekend passes" for felons! :hi:

[GeekMonkey]

117. make that 'violent felons'

remember, most 'felons' are there for drugs.

I would only want those convicted of violence and theivery to be denied parole or passes.

[Rooktoven]

222. If it was my daughter, no problem whatsoever

I think rapists should be put to death anyhow.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. Right. If justice had really been done, he would have stayed in jail.

[uppityperson]

9. While I don't believe in vigilantism, I can see why people do sometimes.

"how's your daughter" whooomp flame. Yeah, I can see the emotional response.

[trumad]

13. Reminds me of a story here in Central Florida.

A man broke into a womans apartment and started to rape her at knifeoint. He set the knife down for a minute, she grabbed it and stabbed him to death. That's ffffing cool!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

42. im in central florida

and never heard that one. awesome!

[trumad]

74. It happened in Metro West. Near Orlando

[Misunderestimator]

112. Now that's the kind of story I like to hear...

Definitely ffffing cool!

(As for the dousing with flames... you betcha... if he had taunted me like that... I can definitely understand the reaction.)

[peacebaby3]

188. That's called self-defense. Different circumstances. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

10. Why does this guy get a 3 day pass AND get to go to a bar?

Weird justice system they have there.

I would probably have done the same thing if I was that mother.

[cynatnite]

11. It was pure vengeance

and no matter her motives, it doesn't make it right. I would want to kill anyone who harmed my children as would any parent.

This is the reason why parents aren't the judges, jury and executioners.

I understand her anger and need to retaliate, but she still committed murder.

The tragedy is her daughter is victimized again. Her mother will go to jail for this act. Not worth it.

[The Magistrate]

79. You Say That, Ma'am, Like Vengeance Were A Bad Thing....

In my view, she behaved in a natural and understandable manner, and my guess would be she does not go to jail for any length of time....

[cynatnite]

80. I don't believe vengeance is a good thing

The feelings she had were real and understandable. I would feel the same, but it doesn't mean that this kind of action is acceptable and it shouldn't be.

There is no telling what the authorities will do with this woman since she murdered with premeditation. I won't be surprised if she goes to jail for it and her daughter will be worse off for it.

[The Magistrate]

81. And Vengeance Does Not Trouble Me Much, Ma'am

People often try and make some distinction between vengeance and justice that seems to me most unwarranted....

[geek tragedy]

195. Indeed. Justice is nothing more than people getting what they deserve.

Hard to argue this wasn't justice.

[NorthernSpy]

200. alrighty, then: what does this woman deserve for endangering all those...

... innocent bystanders? She DID spread gasoline and start a fire in the crowded room where they were peacefully having drinks and eating their meals.

Hard to argue this wasn't justice.

Hard to believe you actually read the damn article.

[geek tragedy]

204. Probation and counseling. First-time offender, minimal likelihood

of further crimes.

Mr. Crispy is no loss to humanity.

[cynatnite]

207. I don't recall a first time murderer ever getting probation n/t

[geek tragedy]

213. You were asking how to punish her for the actual and potential effect

her actions had on other bar patrons.

As I noted, Mr. Crispy got what was coming to him. Justice was done upon him.

[cynatnite]

218. Justice isn't walking into a bar and setting someone on fire

What happened to her daughter is vile and the guy should have gotten a lot worse. He shouldn't have gotten a three day pass. It was disgusting what he said to her. I'd want to do the same as well.

But no matter how you color it, DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

The daughter is the true victim. Not only was she raped, but lost her mother, too. Is that justice?

[geek tragedy]

227. Justice is a result, not a process. Mr. Crispy got what he deserved.

Justice and morality are also two separate concepts.

The mother isn't going to serve a lot of jail time on this. Present the facts in front of a jury, plead temporary insanity, and bingo! instant slap on the wrist.

[NorthernSpy]

214. as an aside, we simply don't know what kind of criminal record...

... this person might have, if she has one. Spanish law prevents her being named.

By the way, Ellie Nesler (whose case I cited earlier) enjoyed a lot of support and sympathy -- until it turned out that she was a methamphetamine trafficker. Oft times these self-deputized avengers turn out to be persistently troubled and dangerous people. I think that many here are extremely naive about these cases, and about those who commit these acts.

[geek tragedy]

216. Presumption of innocence?

No suggestion that she had a criminal record.

What happened was still justice.

[cynatnite]

219. Definition of justice:

1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : CORRECTNESS

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=justice&x=9&y=9


There was no justice in this and those who say there was needs to read what it means.

[geek tragedy]

230. " the assignment of merited rewards or punishments"

Sounds like a merited punishment was assigned here.

Justice is in the eye of the beholder.

[cynatnite]

232. don't pull the rw trait of snipping a small portion like that

"the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity"

Here it is in case you forgot the rest.

[geek tragedy]

236. It is not a RW tactic to pay attention to disjunctive words like "or."

To wit:

"the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by (1)the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims OR (2) the assignment of merited rewards or punishments." (Numbers and emphasis added).

So, let us remove #1, since we're talking about an either/or situation here:

"the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the assignment of merited rewards or punishments."

That is exactly what happened here.

[cynatnite]

238. No one gave this woman the right to set a man on fire

This was an act of revenge based on emotion. That's not what justice is. You're forcing the definition to fit your idea of what you think it should be.

[geek tragedy]

240. I'm saying that the man got what he deserved, which fits the definition

you gave of justice.

The definition you gave mentioned just punishments and rewards, not motivations.

Now, good day.

[cynatnite]

244. Okay, if you say so.

:rofl:

[NorthernSpy]

220. that's one of the most commonly misused phrases in the language...

Presumption of innocence means only that while a person has not yet been convicted of committing a specific instance of an illegal act, the state will maintain the stance that the person must be considered not to be guilty of committing that specific instance of that act. That's ALL it means. It has nothing to do with whether or not we should assume some anonymous person to have been a faultless saint all her life.

What happened was still justice.

It's a funny kind of justice that puts an entire building full of innocent people in acute danger of burning to death and other such delightful things.

[geek tragedy]

228. You're right, and I've made the same argument before. However,

there is no reason to believe this woman has a criminal record. She may or may not have one.

I would wager that most women in Spain don't have criminal records. At least that's the impression I got when visiting there.

[NorthernSpy]

85. starting a lethal fire in a crowded bar is "natural and understandable"?

Funny how all those other people she put in extreme danger seem not to count for anything!

:eyes:

[grace0418]

122. That's what I was thinking! With all that alcohol around she could've

started a firebomb in there. How would she have felt if she razed three buildings and killed or injured several people to get her revenge? Would it have been worth it?

Don't get me wrong, I understand her reaction. Especially after he taunted her and walked into a bar. Which begs the question why the hell is a convicted rapist allowed a mini-vacation from jail, in the same town where the victim lives, and allowed to go to a bar? There's the real problem.

Revenge feels good at the time but I think it almost never ends well. It's not going to make her daughter any less raped. On top of that, if she goes to jail her daughter is going to be motherless.

[trotsky]

100. You echo my thoughts on this completely.

"This is the reason why parent's aren't the judges, jury and executioners."

Precisely. I have a daughter, and if I had been in this mother's position, I just may have done the same thing. But that would also be wrong.

[iverglas]

187. it's really just that simple, isn't it?

Lest I be misunderstood (as I'm sure is possible hereabouts), I am NOT speaking sarcastically. It really IS that simple.

This is not the jungle, or the caves, or wherever else we have dragged ourselves up from, largely by making and applying rules that enhance our chances of surviving, individually and collectively.

"This is the reason why parents aren't the judges, jury and executioners."

That old "due process" thing rises so quickly to some people's lips when it is THEIR liberty or security that is at stake, and is forgotten so quickly when it's the liberty or security of someone they don't like at stake.

The rule of law. Such a quaint notion.

[helderheid]

14. those who commit these crimes should be castrated - PERIOD.

[Endangered Specie]

24. How about executed?

amend capital punishment to include rapists and serial killers.

[helderheid]

28. I think people fear castration more

[Endangered Specie]

29. true...

both :shrug:

[Maru Kitteh]

147. with dull rusty pinking shears

that's what I think.

[lapislzi]

89. If you think that, you do not understand the crime of rape

If I'm reading you right...you think rape is about sex. It isn't. Rape is about control and violence. Besides being an inhumane punishment, castration will serve only to make the rapist unable to reproduce, and possibly cause him to express his rage and controlling behavior in other ways.

[CitrusLib]

105. Unfortunately, it wouldn't work.

Rape is not a crime of sex, it's about violence and control. The penis is a weapon. Without it, other objects would be utilized instead.

[LeftyMom]

153. What about wrongful convictions?

We can't exactly just reattach a guy's nuts and give him an apology.

[rurallib]

15. I have two daughters and have a lot of sympathy

Sometimes the system lets you down. Too bad she didn't take his roasted nuts as a souvenier.

[dogday]

16. I don't think I would of Killed him, but I would

of chopped off his thingy and sliced it up and fed it to his dog...

[seabeyond]

17. of course it was wrong, adn court should take into consideration

why she did it, and not have too harsh a punishment

[Karenina]

53. Kinda like those

"crimes of passion" pleas that free so many men who brutalize and murder women.

[TriMetFan]

19. I agree with you.

Good for her. If any one ever did anything to my boys I just don't know what I would do. Will I take that back I know this much I would don't sit by just twiddle my thumbs.

[tamtam]

20. Damn

I can honestly say without a doubt I would go after the guy if that was me. It does not make it right though. I have three children whom I would die for. I'm sure most parents feel the same way. It wasn't right but I can understand her wanting to hurt him. I mean, if someone were to touch my babies in such a vile way I would want them to suffer. The guy sure in the hell wasn't sorry for what he did since he taunted the mother. That (excuse the pun) added fuel to the fire.

[bloom]

21. The justice system only works

when rapists aren't out taunting their victims and the victims mothers.

He was asking for it - there is no doubt.

Too bad for him - since he had no remorse - that he was let out. The prison would have been doing him a favor to keep him locked up.

You can tell how communities are sick of people like him getting away with raping girls by the reaction of the town,

[NorthernSpy]

22. these cases always remind me of Ellie Nesler

In the middle of the trial, Ellie Nesler shot dead the man accused of molesting her son. She got lots of public support and sympathy for this act, and eventually served a little time for her deed.

Just recently, her son -- now an adult -- stomped a man to death in a dispute over an old trailer. He's been found guilty of murder and sentenced to 25-to-life. Perhaps he also felt justified in doing what he did.


I think that we need to ask ourselves, whenever we confront one of these 'sympathetic vigilante' cases, whether we really want to encourage a cultural ethos that condones private revenge-taking.

For my part, I'd prefer that those who choose to commit violent acts -- whether aggressive or retaliatory -- do so with the firm understanding that they can expect NO leniency in court.

[Bluebear]

32. Bravo and I remember that case

[CrispyQ]

46. Is that Coulter & what the heck is she doing? ---eom

[Bluebear]

56. Yes and rambling about something! :)

[lapislzi]

95. Revenge is a dish best served cold

If you are prepared to pay the price for your actions and believe you have nothing to lose, I wouldn't support your decision, but I certainly would understand your reasons for doing it. Having said that, if I sat on a jury, I would convict you.

As you point out, however, acts of vengeance, especially those committed in the heat of anger and emotion often have hidden costs that only fall due years later.

[RPM]

165. Well put northernspy. n/t

[Endangered Specie]

23. According to that he was alive 11 days after being torched...

I hope it was in excruciating pain... that sick fuck deserved what he got, and I hope they free her.

on edit: as punishment, she should have to pay the bar for repairs and lost business.

[izzie]

25. She sure did what a lot of people would like to do

I say let her get away with it. I bet rapes will go down for a while around there. I am usually for letting the law take care of such things but it would be interested if they tracked rapes for a while.

[NorthernSpy]

33. in other words, a lot of people don't really want law and order...

Societies that condone vigilantism are consistently more violent than those that condemn it, and they remain more violent -- no matter how many lynch mobs stand ready to make fresh examples of popular justice.

Anyone who thinks that this woman should get off light needs to take a good look at those societies where vigilantism is both common and culturally approved. Invariably, they're hellholes.




(fixed: proofreading mistake)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

137. I hold that to be an undeniable, sad TRUTH.

A lot of people DON'T really want law and order. No matter how much lip service they pay it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

30. Good for her! n/t

[Bluebear]

31. I don't say good for her

Have we come down to vigilante justice? But I do say she should receive no time due to understandable 'insanity'.

By the way, what are they doing let him out on a '3 day pass' to go barhopping? If sentences were only enforced (and only a 9 year sentence?? Please!)

[The Stranger]

36. Oops -- did I accidentally log on to freerepublic?

These posts are as sick as the crimes involved.

[NorthernSpy]

38. what you hear...

... is people cheering on deeds that they themselves don't begin to have nerve enough to commit.

People feel frustrated about the horrors all around them, and so they let their tongues take action. This brings relief.

Really, the noise doesn't signify much, and you mustn't let it bother you any.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. No shit!

Scary!

[grace0418]

135. I know, right?

These people are freaking me out. This is like Taliban justice.

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

[genieroze]

37. I don't agree with what she did, but I don't think this scum should have

a three day pass to go bar hopping either.

[NorthernSpy]

39. clearly, he should have remained in prison

Neither aggressors nor retaliators should expect leniency.

[earth mom]

40. As a mother myself, I don't blame her one bit. eom

[Qanisqineq]

41. Well, I can understand why she did it, but wasn't there a better way?

I can't imagine being able to light someone on fire. Woah.
I don't necessarily agree with what she did, but I certainly understand it. Rape sickens me even more than murder.

[nonconformist]

43. I too say good for her. nt

[eissa]

44. Bravo indeed!

That sick pedophile fuck got what he deserved; the mother should be given a frickin medal in my opinion. Oh no, now I'll be called a "fascist" :eyes:

[NorthernSpy]

51. I'm not going to call you a fascist...

... but I will say that your opinion is naive in the extreme.

There are societies in which vigilantism is common and culturally condoned. In spite of all the popular justice, they are typically terrible places to live.

Do you think that you can have this sort of thing and keep any semblance of a well-ordered society?

[eissa]

59. I appreciate not being called a fascist

although naive is not that great either! I just tire of the many threads I've seen on DU lamenting the treatment of pedophiles/rapists. I've known at least one member who left in disgust after viewing one too many of those threads and I've made it a point to post in each of those threads to show my disdain for these "humans." Unless you've been at the receiving end of these monsters it's quite difficult to grasp their evilness. Being a progressive may oblige me to accept all types, which I gladly do, but there is a limit.

Finally, as a parent, the frustration I feel at having to lock up my kids for fear that some sick fuck will do God-knows-what to them angers me greatly. Unlike my siblings and I, my kids cannot go out and ride their bikes freely; I have them check in every 15 minutes and they have only a small stretch they are allowed to venture around.

Flame away!

[meow2u3]

47. That POS had it coming!

He deserved every second of torment he put that poor kid through!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

48. this reminds me of that video

of a dad shooting his son's karate coach (who had molested his son). it's a great video if you can find it. the karate coach gets pwned at point blank (under police escort - extra points!), the dad actually was incognito chilling at a phone with Al Pacino glasses on, then BLAM!

i don't advocate vigilante justice, but it's an interesting phenomenon nonetheless. :popcorn:

[Warren DeMontague]

50. In the *abstract* I am opposed to vigilante justice. In reality- if that

was my kid, I can't say I wouldn't have done something similar.

[sendero]

54. That is exactly..

.... how I feel. Vigilantism is wrong, but if someone intentionally harmed one of my kids, they better watch their backs.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Since this is not the United States, my position doesn't apply- but-

at risk of repeating myself, Here's my blanket answer to all of these kinds of situations:

People who commit violent acts, including rapes, should be locked up and separated from society for life. With all the money we spend incarcerating non-violent drug offenders, we could do a seriously good job of removing violent goons from our midst- for good.

[donheld]

57. The man had it coming.

I don't know that he deserved to die, but what does a rapist expect?

[jim3775]

58. She souldn't have done it but he souldn't have raped her dughter...

:shrug:

[Stuckinthebush]

70. Eye for an eye, baby!

(Of course there is that whole world being blind problem)

[Mad_Dem_X]

88. Exactly - and he shouldn't have been let out...

and shouldn't have said anything to the victim's mother. While I couldn't imagine setting another person on fire, I understand the mother's rage and frustration.

[NorthernSpy]

60. it's very striking that none of those who are applauding...

... seem to care -- or to have noticed at all -- that this woman poured gasoline and threw a match in a crowded bar. She deliberately put everyone in that building in mortal danger.

"The place was packed with people eating. I was sitting at a table and Soriano was standing at the bar very close to me when the woman walked in," he said. "She didn't acknowledge anyone but walked up to Soriano, who was drinking a coffee, put her hand on his shoulder and turned him round to face her.

"Then she pulled the bottle she was carrying from under her arm and began to tip it over him. At first I didn't realise what was happening, but then I smelt the petrol. I jumped up and tried to grab her, but when she struck a match I got clear.

"The petrol was in a pool around Soriano, and she threw the match into it. It ignited with a whoosh, and he screamed and staggered about covered in flames. As people rushed outside to escape the flames, she just looked at him, then turned and walked away."

Customers helped Mr Lopez put out the fire with extinguishers and doused Soriano with water until paramedics arrived.

In other words, our heroine didn't much give a shit how many people were ultimately maimed or killed by her action. She poured gas, threw a match, and then turned her back on the scene. That is a vicious and antisocial act, no matter how vehemently anyone feels that her specific target had it coming to him. Plainly, this woman has no more business walking free than the criminal she burned to death had.

By the way: she bravely fled the scene, and currently claims not to remember what she did. As a poster child for do-it-yourself justice, this woman seems rather lacking.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. You have any children?

I think, given the circumstances, it's quite possible she wasn't thinking terribly critically or logically when she did what she did.

[Spider Jerusalem]

64. She was thinking clearly enough...

to go somewhere and get gasoline, return to the same spot, douse him and light a match. I'd buy the argument that she wasn't thinking if she'd jumped on him and clawed his eyes out the first time she saw him; her actions, however, indicate a certain amount of planning and thus rational mental capacity.

[NorthernSpy]

68. people who aren't aware enough...

... to know that starting a gasoline fire in a crowded room is a horribly dangerous and indiscriminate way to kill are just too stupid or too crazy to remain a part of society.

This woman is no heroine. She is extremely dangerous. And she needs to be locked up, perhaps for good.

Parenthood does NOT give you the right to endanger me and mine in the course of avenging wrongs committed against you and yours.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. Me, I never said she was a heroine. I never said she wasn't dangerous.

All I think I said, was, in essence- if someone raped my 13 year old daughter, and then showed up at a bar-- taunting me by asking "how's your daughter? ha ha ha..." I'm just not sure what I would do.

[noiretextatique]

157. a man who raped her child taunted her

i would consider that akin to torture. this is clearly a case where she snapped from the pressure. i doubt she was 'dangerous' before her child was raped, and the rapist, out on a holiday, tortured her about raping her child. severe emotional distress tends to make people less than rational, and i would say the being taunted by someone who raped your child qualifies as emotional distress.
perhaps you would have handled it in a more rational manner, and i certainly would have as well. they would have never found his body.
but...c'mon...the woman clearly snapped.

[NorthernSpy]

163. and people who snap like that...

... to the point of committing a lethal arson in an inhabited structure, are dangerous and need to be removed from our midst for the sake of everyone's safety. That's my point, and I think it a reasonable one.

Prison, or an institution for the insane: makes no odds to me, just so long as the door locks tight.

[noiretextatique]

people snap like that

you might have snapped, had you been in her situation because it was an extreme one.
unlike the rapist she killed, i doubt she had a history of committing crimes. but something tells me her daughter was not the first or the last victim of the rapist. i suspect she will be acquitted because of extreme emotional distress, and i hope she's ordered to seek some help to deal with her rage.

[NorthernSpy]

173. nope, not good enough

If I'm not stable enough to avoid committing violent felonies that endanger other people's lives, then society should not tolerate me wandering around loose.

Remember, she didn't just jump the man immediately and try to throttle him with her bare hands. She didn't just pick up whatever object was handy and start beating the shit out of him.

Instead, she went away, made a plan, supplied herself with fuel and matches, and went looking for her target. She had time to think of what she was doing. This was not snapping in the usual sense of the word; this was a premeditated act. If in all that time it never occurred to her that her plan would put many people in serious danger, then that really says something about her fitness to remain a free person.

I'm not opposed to her getting counselling, but therapy will be strictly for her benefit. Locking her up is for everyone else's.

[noiretextatique]

185. what she did was heinous

but so is demonizing her, consdering the circumstances that lead up to that incident: the rape of her child. i do not think this was the action of a rational person, even though there was some premeditation. still...considering all of the facts, i think it's reasonable to conclude that this woman acted out of character because of extreme emotional distress, unless of course you know of any previous crimes she committed to indicate that she is this monster some of you are trying to make her out to be.
on the other hand, we know all about the character of her victim.

[NorthernSpy]

186. except that I'm not "demonizing" her...

... because I don't need to. She could be a perfect saint most of the time, and that still wouldn't be a reason to let her wander loose after this.

[noiretextatique]

249. of course you are

reread your posts. you believe the fact that she endangered other people makes her some type of monster. it's just as possible that the stress of being taunted by her daughter's rapist made her not just angry, but insane.
if that convicted rapist hadn't been allowed to wander the streets...

[Pithlet]

255. Exactly

I doubt she intended to endanger anyone else. She probably didn't even think about it. Honestly, do some of the people in this thread think they're impervious to extreme emotional duress? That they would completely keep their calm and cool if taunted by the person that raped their child? I doubt I'd go to the extremes that this woman did, and I do think what she did was wrong, but I honestly don't know how I'd react. It's one thing to state that she should face legal consequences, and that I agree with. But, to judge her in such a way? I don't understand that.

[noiretextatique]

256. i can't even begin to imagine

how i would react if that happened to me. of course she no right to take that man's life, but i can absolutely understand why she did it.
why the judgement...well, some of it is in reaction to those cheering and condoning what she did. and some of it...well, certainly the prison that released this man on holiday didn't understand how devastated the mother was about the rape of her child. rape is still a very misunderstood crime, as evidenced by the many times it's been described as "forced sex" right here. there is always that undercurrent in society, and in the criminal justice system.

[NorthernSpy]

257. Didn't say that she was a demon. I said that she was a dangerous person

And yes, she IS dangerous person, and yes again, other people really do need to be protected from her.

That's not demonization. That's reality.

[noiretextatique]

258. you have no way of knowing that

she committed a heinous crime under extreme duress, directed at a man who raped her child, and taunted her about doing so. she did endanger other people when she committed that crime of killing the rapist of her child, but as far a i know, she hadn't committed any other crimes...and no one else was hurt. that's reality. that she is dangerous to anyone else, besides the rapist she killed, is just your opinion.

[NorthernSpy]

262. so... she sets a lethal fire in a crowd of people...

... and I have no way of knowing whether she's really, down deep, a dangerous person?

That's absurd.

What happens the next time this unstable woman feels justified in taking matters into her own hands? We already know that she's capable of carrying out extreme and premeditated acts of violence. We already know that she's capable of ignoring the rights and safety of others. And by her choice to flee the scene, and to claim that she can't remember what she did, we also know that she tries to dodge responsibility for her actions.


I am not naive about the sort of people who are usually the ones who wind up doing things like this.



(fixed typo)

[noiretextatique]

266. unstable...probably

running into the rapist of your 13 year old daughter, released on a pass from prison, might just make you unstable.
she was arrested, she will go on trial...what more do you want? the people who wind up doing things like this are not that different from anyone else. if she had a criminal history, i would take your argument more seriously. since she doesn't, i think the situation:
the rape of her child
the release of the rapist
the taunting by the rapist
and god only knows what else she experienced because of the rape..a trial, issues with her daughter, etc.
more than likely had more to do with what she did than her being some inherently evil or crazy person.
even someone like you, if pushed by extraordinary circumstances, might lose it.

[noiretextatique]

166. people snap like that

you might have snapped, had you been in her situation because it was an extreme one.
unlike the rapist she killed, i doubt she had a history of committing crimes. but something tells me her daughter was not the first or the last victim of the rapist. i suspect she will be acquitted because of extreme emotional distress, and i hope she's ordered to seek some help to deal with her rage.

[lapislzi]

98. And that excuses her...how?

Of course the guy was an asshole. I don't think anyone would argue that point. But murder is still a crime. One fact doesn't cancel out the other.

People who don't think critically or logically often make DANGEROUS choices.

[Warren DeMontague]

264. Didn't say it "excused" her, did I? Please. Find where I said that.

I only said it was quite possible she wasn't thinking rationally, after the man who raped her 13 year old daughter saw her in a bar, and said, "How's your daughter, hyuk hyuk hyuk"

[Algorem]

106. She's got style!

[NorthernSpy]

109. deliberately endangering innocent people is "style"?

Running away afterwards like a common coward is "style"?

Claiming -- when it comes time to face the music -- that you don't remember your own recent actions is "style"?


My, but some people are easily impressed!

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Maybe she can get the same judge who seriously under-sentenced

her daughter's rapist.

One can hope.

[NorthernSpy]

71. how about all those people in that cafe?

You know -- the ones who were left trying to stop the spread of the flames, and the ones who fled in terror of the fire...

What about them? Aren't they entitled to protection from people like her?

Me, I hope that the judge who hears this case does what is necessary to protect society. People who do what she did should NOT be free to walk the streets.

[fishwax]

73. I agree with you, NorthernSpy

She put a lot of people in danger, both from the flames and from the mass panic in getting out of the bar. As tempting as the fantasy of such behavior might be, and as sympathetic as we might be towards her pain, it's a can of worms better left unopened. The revenge fantasy might be healthy and normal to an extent, but acting out on it (and as you point out, with such reckless disregard for the safety of innocent bystanders) is a different story. The article also said that the woman has reportedly been unstable since the crime.

I also think it's outrageous that the POS was out on a weekend pass after only nine years :puke: and that he was apparently unsupervised :puke: (or else his chaperone figured it was okay to hit the bars :puke: )

[Warren DeMontague]

75. I think people who commit acts of violence shouldn't be free to walk

the streets, period.

Of course, if that principle were applied, and applied consistently, this story would be moot, 'cuz the rapist wouldn't have been out bar hopping, now, would he?

If you look at my personal posts, nowhere did I say she wasn't a criminal, nowhere did I comment on whether or not she should face justice. I also said I'm opposed to the concept of vigilante justice.

But I think it's a little disingenuous to get all worked up with insisting that justice be applied to this "dangerous, violent" woman, without acknowledging the act of violence perpetrated against her daughter.

It's not up to me to decide what criminal sanction she should face. But if you want me to participate in a massive tarring of this woman as an evil menace while totally ignoring the crimes commited against her daughter, sorry, I've simply got other shit to do.

[NorthernSpy]

84. (ahem)... please tell the truth about what I've said

But I think it's a little disingenuous to get all worked up with insisting that justice be applied to this "dangerous, violent" woman, without acknowledging the act of violence perpetrated against her daughter.

You want disingenuous? What do you call your little ploy of overlooking the fact that I called the man a criminal and said that he never should have been let out in the first place?

It's not up to me to decide what criminal sanction she should face. But if you want me to participate in a massive tarring of this woman as an evil menace while totally ignoring the crimes commited against her daughter, sorry, I've simply got other shit to do.

Again, please tell the truth. I haven't ignored the crimes committed against the daughter. I have said that woman who set the fire is dangerous and that society needs protection against her. That's not "a massive tarring as an evil menace": it's just reality.


Another reality: you took a poorly thought-out position, and finding yourself unable to defend it, you've decided to salvage what you can by accusing me of being soft on rapists.

[Warren DeMontague]

269. Um, No.

You want disingenuous? What do you call your little ploy of overlooking the fact that I called the man a criminal and said that he never should have been let out in the first place?

I'm sorry, I guess I missed that.

Another reality: you took a poorly thought-out position, and finding yourself unable to defend it, you've decided to salvage what you can by accusing me of being soft on rapists.

Riiiiiiiiight. What "poorly thought-out position" did I take? Pretty much the only statements I've made in this thread have been to the effect of, I'm opposed to the concept of vigilante justice, but in reality, if someone raped my 13 year old daughter and then showed up in a bar laughing at me about it, I can't say for certain what I would do.

That certainly doesn't mean I would light him on fire, I just can't even imagine what that would be like. That is not a justification of this woman's actions, it is not calling her a heroine, and it is not a "poorly thought-out position", either.

And if you look at YOUR posts in this thread, it is clear you have taken it as your personal mission to convince everyone what an evil menace to society this mother is. I haven't seen a whole lot of criticism, in your posts, of the guy who raped her kid. Please, correct me if I'm wrong- maybe I haven't read them all, but it sure doesn't seem to be the focus of what you're on about.

Now, that's certainly your perogative, but there's no cause to get snippy with me just because I, personally, have better things to do with my time than join you in your crusade against this woman.

[Bouncy Ball]

63. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And YES, I have a daughter and NO I wouldn't torch someone to death who hurt her. I'd WANT to, but I live in a civilized society and I am a non-violent person and I know killing him won't take away my daughter's pain, it will only add to our burden, knowing I killed a man.

Fuggedabout it.

[hippiechick]

66. Shit, I'da brought marshmellows & toasted them over his flaming ass

Bastard. Hope he rots in hell. :mad:

DO. NOT. FUCK. WITH. THE. CHILDREN.

[killbotfactory]

67. Good riddance

[fujiyama]

77. Can't say I blame her

Penalties for rape and other forms of sexual assult should be stiff - life in prison stiff.

I'm not a fan of capital punishment and I understand that Europe doesn't have that anyways.

In this case, the fact that the perpotrator had access to the woman - to actually TAUNT her made it clear the man had it coming.

I sure don't condone vigilantism, but if someone laid a fuckin hand on a loved one, I would be sure to use all the force I could.

[NorthernSpy]

87. how about all those other people in that building?

For gawd's sake, this woman poured a big puddle of gasoline and threw a match on it. Inside a building. In the midst of a big crowd of people.

She put all of them at great risk of losing their skin and their lives.

Those people were just eating and drinking and minding their own business when the match hit the gas. How did they "have it coming"?

[Piperay]

83. Two thumbs up

to the mother! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[NorthernSpy]

91. and if one of these righteous vindicators puts YOUR family in danger...

... will you still be cheering?

Seriously, this woman started a gasoline fire in a crowded building.

What if someone you love had been near the flames? Somehow, I suspect that "two thumbs up to the mother!" would turn into "get this lunatic off the streets!".

[Massacure]

86. Torching the guy was probably a little over the top.

Giving him a nice swift kick between the legs probably would have been more appropriate.

[bertha katzenengel]

90. What do I think?

I think it's ridiculous to celebrate the murder this woman committed in vengeance.

[NorthernSpy]

92. and you know what the best part is?

The best part is imagining what these celebrators would have to say if someone like this woman started throwing gas and matches next to them and their own families. I'll bet pounds to pennies that the tune would change right quick.

[bertha katzenengel]

93. YEP. n/t

[Stand and Fight]

143. They love this vigilante justice shit!

They seem to love this vigilante justice shit!
It is bullshit.
I can say this -- I have lost a family member to violence, murder. I know who committed the act, and as much as I would like to make him pay my sense of law and order and what is morally right do NOT allow for such acts. Period.

[Bouncy Ball]

275. This thread makes me sick.

Is this actually DU????

[Solly Mack]

97. I wouldn't vote to convict her

[NorthernSpy]

99. so it's okay to start fires and endanger scores of people...

... if your specific target arguably "had it coming"?

:eyes:


Dangerous people need to be locked up, whether we have sympathy for them or not.

[Solly Mack]

102. You are aware that you don't have to like what I said, yes?

Are you also aware that I never once said or even implied that the man had it coming? Those were YOUR words. YOUR thoughts. NOT mine.


In the future, you might want to stop assuming you know the reasoning behind a comment. (and no, I don't owe you an explanation for my comment)

Just saying...

[NorthernSpy]

103. now, now -- no need to get pettish about this...

You are aware that you don't have to like what I said, yes?"

Are you also aware that I never once said or even implied that the man had it coming? Those were YOUR words. YOUR thoughts. NOT mine.


In the future, you might want to stop assuming you know the reasoning behind a comment. (and no, I don't owe you an explanation for my comment)

Hell, for all I know you might've arrived at your position by consulting the Magic Eightball:

Questioner: "Magic Eightball, should a person vote to convict this woman of a crime?"

Magic Eightball: "Doesn't look good."

And just like that, Magic Eightball's wisdom appears before the eyes of DUers everywhere.


Seriously though, I don't know how in the world you come up with your remarks. It's just as well that I'm not owed an explanation, as I don't much care.

I'll continue pointing out the wrongness of refusing to lock up dangerous people just because we have sympathy for them (or for whatever other reasons we prefer to keep to ourselves).

[Solly Mack]

104. LMAO You don't care so much you're back at it again

[NorthernSpy]

107. what I don't care about is HOW you arrive at your remarks...

As for the subject actually at hand, clearly I care about that enough to discuss it.

[Solly Mack]

108. tick tock tick tock tick tock

[NorthernSpy]

110. somehow, you manage to make even less sense with each new post...

By the end of this exchange, we'll be seeing a new masterpiece of dada, I shouldn't wonder.

[Solly Mack]

111. tick tock tick tock tick tock

[NorthernSpy]

113. more clock noises?

Mix it up a bit. Try some other appliances. Add a carpet steamer, or a blender or two.

[Solly Mack]

114. ROFLMAO tick tock tick tock tick tock

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thank you! You've been a lot of fun!

[MadHound]

101. OK, while I understand why the mother did this,

And empathize with her plight, it is still wrong for her to take the law into her own hands like this. Vigilantism is not conducive to having a sane, civil society operating under the rule of law. In fact vigilantism can lead to horrible consequences, both for individuals and society.

[lonestarnot]

115. Oh yeah Momma! That's just what all of those types need, but now

daughter is w/o Mom, so maybe she should have thought of it a little more. That freak won't hurt anyone else!

[Demrock6]

116. I would roast marshmallows on his burning body.

Screw that guy. He got what he deserved.

[NorthernSpy]

119. did the rest of the people in the room deserve to be endangered?

They WERE endangered, you know.

And they weren't making merry, even if you naively assume that you would have done. They were screaming and fleeing, and trying to stop the flames from spreading. I'd expect that a lot of them are pretty well traumatized from this.

[Lowell]

120. I seriously doubt she can get a fair trial

considering that no one could blame her for her actions. My bet is that if it goes to trial they will let her off. WTF are they letting this pedophile rapist out of prison on pass for?

[peacebaby3]

121. Oh My GOD!

I agree with an earlier post. I thought I was on the FReeptards board!

Was this a horrible person who should not have been out of jail walking the streets? Absolutely! Does that mean this woman is allowed to murder someone? Absolutely not! Would most parents want to hurt or kill anyone who touched their child? Absolutely! Does that make it right? Absolutely not! Should she be punished like any other murderer? Absolutely! Should we as a civilized nation condone her behavior with some even rejoicing? Absolutely not!

What a bunch of hypocrites. Slamming some Senators for not signing onto the the anti-lynching legislation and then a week later fully endorsing one! Some of the comments are sick! Do you think that the people who lynched African Americans and Jewish people thought they were justified? I'm sure they did. Do you think everyone of those people that were lynched were innocent? No, they were not, but that doesn't mean that the practice of lynching wasn't disgusting.

And for the person that said that they should add rape and "serial killers" to the list of people that are eligible for execution -"serial killers" are eligible for execution. Almost every State has a "2 or more" aggravator in the capital punishment code. As for rape, it was eligible for the death penalty until about 40 or so years ago. In fact, in my state, hundreds of African American men were executed for raping White women up until the 1960s. That really worked out well.

I've always thought it made a lot of sense to kill people to teach people that killing is wrong (or rape in this case). :sarcasm:

Oh, and not that it is really anyone's business here, but I figure I'll just put an end to any potential comments such as, I wouldn't know how someone should feel regarding the issue of rape because I do know. I was a victim of rape at the age of 16 and it's how I lost my virginity so it was very difficult to overcome. I thank God that I do not have to walk around every day wanting to murder my rapist because I would be one miserable human being.

I really try to stay out of these more controversial posts, but this really disgusted me and made me wonder if this was the Liberal/Progressive haven I thought it was.

The only thing this woman did was turn herself into the same kind of monster as the man she killed. Yea, good for her! :sarcasm:

[grace0418]

123. Thank you so much for your brave post.

I was also horrified that so many supposed liberals would endorse such action, but my post was nowhere near as articulate and gripping as yours. Thank you for revealing something so difficult. That must've been really hard for you and I'm sorry you had to go through it. I hope it gave people something to think about. Revenge never works out well, and it doesn't make the victim any less traumatized.

[peacebaby3]

129. Thank you.

I'm horrified by some of these comments.

I don't really dwell on what happened to me at 16. I've long ago forgiven. I really like the person I am today and wouldn't change anything about my life because I might not be the same person so I guess that includes all of the bad things as well.

[NorthernSpy]

136. I agree with you that burning people to death is not something...

... that we should be condoning at all. That should go without saying.

Me, I've concentrated on reminding everyone that this woman put a LOT of people in serious peril when she did what she did. I think that there's some pretty rank hypocrisy (and just plain thoughtlessness) at work here. I mean, endangering scores of innocents in order to avenge one?

The fact is that if their loved ones had been eating in that cafe when this woman started spraying gasoline around, they wouldn't be cheering. More likely, they'd be outraged that anyone could be so reckless and so selfish as to jeopardize the lives of people who had done her no wrong.

But perhaps that's all okay: the applauders don't know any of those people, so they and their right not to be injured or killed don't really matter.





(edit: added missing word)

[grace0418]

148. Also an excellent point.

It truly scares me that so many people think the whole thing is perfectly understandable, and even something to be applauded. But even if no one else was in the room, revenge wouldn't have made anything better for this woman or her daughter. In fact, she just added to her family's pain.

It really makes me wonder what would happen if a truly disasterous thing were to befall our country, something so bad we would be forced to live in total survival mode. People really seem to be showing their true colors here.

[peacebaby3]

149. Very good point! I haven't even been able to get to that because I am so

shocked by some of the other things I have read.

I guess some of these people would want to burn this woman to death had their loved one been in the bar and gotten killed due to her actions. The killing cycle would never end.

Sort of reminds me of * and how he started a war because Saddam had "tried to kill his daddy." Same kind of mentality. F*ck everyone else just as long as I get my revenge!

[ProfessorGAC]

261. Do You Have Evidence On The Number Of People Put In Danger?

Just wondering. Your argument seems awfully dependent upon that fact being completely true. Was it a crowded bar? Were others present, beside the bartender. I didn't see the reference in the article, but i admit i read it quickly.
The Professor

[flvegan]

159. You pretty much nailed it. I think that there's some

misunderstanding between "justified" and "understandable" in this thread.

She wasn't justified in what she did. However, I can't say that I wouldn't want, in a blind rage (which she wasn't in), to hurt that individual, were I in this situation. I understand the why of her action, and I would understand the why of my murder charges if I did something akin to this.

[noiretextatique]

162. she was a victim

as was her child, of a sexual predator. she was again victimized by a the system that allowed this predator not only to leave prison, but to have contact with her...the mother of his victim.
while i do no condone her actions, i do not consider her a 'monster' either. i fully understand her rage because: it's understandable, given the circumstances.
her actions are another thing entirely, but severe emotional distress makes people do a lot of things that they probably wouldn't normally do. as far as i know, she never set anyone on fire before. i doubt the same can be said of her victim...that he never raped before, and that he clearly had no remorse for raping her daughter. one thing is for sure: he will never rape someone else's child.

[peacebaby3]

190. Yes she was a victim that allowed hatred and anger turn her into a

murderer.

Hatred and anger are very dangerous emotions. She allowed them to turn her into the same kind of monster that the man that raped her daughter was.

I do feel sympathy for her and would want her to get all of the help she needed regarding her mental health problems, but I will not condone what she did and to cheer it is disgusting.

[noiretextatique]

248. there but for the grace of god

all those judging this woman...i pray you never have to face what she did, because i can honestly say: i don't know what i would have done if i were in her shoes. i don't condone or cheer her actions, but like you, i certainly understand them, and i hope she get the help she needs. it might have been helpful if the rapist hadn't been released from prison too.

[iverglas]

192. me with you

Another victim -- a little older, abducted by a stranger, assaulted (choked), sexually assaulted ("raped", in language that is no longer used in Canadian criminal law), found a tiny window of opportunity to escape alive, took it.

I puke every time I see someone here exploit MY EXPERIENCE for their own ends. "Rape" is an experience of women, most women in fact, that has for most of human history been used, in one way or another, for MEN's (and more importantly, "the patriarchy's", and the ruling classes' ...) ends, for controlling women's lives, in a variety of ways.

The individual man who commits the individual act of assault is no more deserving of being tortured, or mutilated, or permanently deprived of liberty, or killed, than any other individual who commits any other act of violence.

And the bilious outrage that some people are so fond of expressing against sexual assault offenders does absolutely nothing to enable women to live our own lives, and in particular to shake off the patriarchal, oppressive, exploitive imposed definitions of our sexuality, and many women's not insignificantly irrational fear of sexual assault, and their suffering as a result of it.

I thank God that I do not have to walk around every day wanting to murder my rapist because I would be one miserable human being.

Absolutely. And doing nothing to assist other women overcome their fears or get on with their lives if it does happen to them.

[Pithlet]

252. This happened to her child

I already said that I don't condone vigilante justice, and I do feel she should be punished for murder. Let's get that right out of the way.

There is a difference between understanding an action and condoning it. I think people are understanding it, not condoning it, in this thread. A very important distinction. I don't condone what she did. But I understand what the mere THOUGHT of harm coming to their child can do to someone.

I don't believe the people in this thread cheering the mother on deserve to be flamed for it and compared to freepers.

[Bouncy Ball]

276. Great post.

Exactly how I was feeling. I was skimming this thread just incredulous that so many would so heartily be rah-rahing vigilante actions. Puke.

[grace0418]

124. SERIOUSLY. EVERYONE READ POST #121 before you continue

talking about roasting marshmallows and taking his nuts as souvenirs. Really.

[truebrit71]

125. Do you have a daughter? I do. If this were me, dental records wouldn' t...

..be enough to id this piece of shit by the time I got done with him...I think he got off lightly...

Good for her....I hope that bastard suffers excruciating agony for the rest of his life...

[NorthernSpy]

127. I'll ask again: why is it okay to endanger innocent people...

... as this woman clearly did?

Every single person in that building was put in acute danger of getting burnt, trampled, and killed. Please explain why this is okay.

[Beam Me Up]

128. Ugh...

Good for her....I hope that bastard suffers excruciating agony for the rest of his life...

OP says the perp is dead.

[grace0418]

133. Which leads me to believe

the person didn't read all the original post before responding, and probably didn't thoroughly read post #121 enough to see it was written by a rape victim.

It scares me to think that this is the reaction of liberals. What must the freepers be saying?

[truebrit71]

154. Good. Too soon though.

If it were my daughter that piece of shit couldn't be dead enough...

[peacebaby3]

130. So you support lynching?

And it's hard to feel excruciating pain the rest of your life when you are dead.

[truebrit71]

155. How can you possibly equate the two?

The rapist had been convicted fairly no? Can you say that about lynchings?

I didn't think so....

:eyes:

[peacebaby3]

168. A lynching is a lynching!

So if the people that were lynched had been found guilty (which they would have been) then it would have been fine to set them on fire, hang them, cut off body parts for souvenirs, and as in the case of a woman in GA - cut her unborn child out of her stomach while she was still alive is acceptable behavior under some circumstances? All of that and pouring gasoline on someone and setting them on fire (a common practice during a lynching) would be just fine by you as long has they had been found guilty?

That's sick and barbaric! Anyone who would do that is no better than the person that committed the crime in the first place. A murderer is a murderer!

[truebrit71]

176. It is my understanding that most of the victim's of lynchings were...

...INNOCENT....

That is NOT the case with this piece of human refuse...

If the guilty party serves their sentence and has the common sense to stay the hell away from me when they get out, then more than likely nothing would happen, but if the chose to find me, and taunt me? I would beat the ever-loving shit out of them.

Period.

[peacebaby3]

182. Not necessarily.

They didn't have a trial, but some had overwhelming evidence of guilt against them based on the info that was available at the time. Was the info accurate or not, maybe/maybe not, but they would have been convicted either way.

And, do we know for certain this guy was guilty of rape? Oh yea, that's right, he was convicted and nobody has ever been convicted of a crime when they are actually innocent. :sarcasm:

I can't say either way because I was not in the courtroom to hear the facts of the case.

Again, are you saying it is ok to brutally kill someone as long as they are guilty of a crime?

Lynching is a horrible crime against humanity and guilt or innocence has no relevance.

[grace0418]

171. Because she took the law into her own hands and set him on fire.

Lynching is putting a person to death without due process of law. The rapist had been convicted and sent to prison (his sentence clearly far too short). However, he wasn't sentenced to being set ablaze in a crowded bar. She decided that herself. Unless I missed that part.

And what were the other patrons of the bar convicted of again? Remind me.

[truebrit71]

178. Remind me, how many other patrons got hurt?

How many?

[grace0418]

181. Again, remind me how it's okay to endanger them regardless of

whether or not they got hurt? Because a lot of arsonists, drunk drivers, and people who leave their children in hot cars will want to use that argument in court.

[NorthernSpy]

183. wow, it's just like drunk driver logic!

"Your honor, I didn't crash into any other cars before I passed out and hit the guard rail. That proves I didn't do anything wrong!"

:eyes:

[grace0418]

132. And I'll ask you to read post #121 again. Did you?

Did you read the part about the poster having been raped? Do you not think that MAYBE her opinion on the matter should hold some weight? I'm not saying I wouldn't WANT to kill someone who hurt my child in any way. But this woman had to go get some fuel to dump on the guy and walk back to the bar. She had a few minutes at least to think about the consequences of her actions. And she still put a roomful of innocent people in mortal danger to get her revenge (a crowded room + many bottles of alcohol + raging fire = extremely dangerous situation). And for what? Is her daughter any less raped? Is it going to be good for her daughter to have her mother locked up in jail?

By the way, the guy died. His excruciating agony has ended. The rape victim's pain hasn't.

[truebrit71]

161. Yes I did.

I saw nothing in that post that mentioned that she had been taunted by her attacker after being released...

You are mixing apples and oranges.

Also the article mentions nothing about any other injuries in the "crowded bar" from the other patrons, so I'm not sure why there is all this wailing and gnashing of teeth...

A piece of shit died a slow, agonizing and painful death.

Next?

[NorthernSpy]

164. a defense to gladden the hearts of drunk drivers everywhere!

Also the article mentions nothing about any other injuries in the "crowded bar" from the other patrons, so I'm not sure why there is all this wailing and gnashing of teeth...

Aw, give me break already! Endangering others is a crime in its own right. That's why we go after drunk drivers for their antisocial actions, even if they've been fortunate enough not to have run anyone over yet. Luck is not an excuse.

[grace0418]

167. So he died a slow agonizing death. And?

The daughter didn't get "de-raped", and now she will have to live without her mother. The mother will have to live with the pain of her daughter being raped as well as the memory of killing the rapist. Not to mention she will most likely always see the looks of horror on the faces of those she endangered in her mind.

Does the fact that people were lucky enough to survive being horribly endangered make that all okay? Talk about ridiculous logic. So if someone went into your daughter's school and set a fire that didn't injure anyone, you'd be okay with that? It would only be a problem if someone died or was injured? Great, I'll be right over to steal your car. I mean, as long as I don't injure you or your family, you're okay with that right?

And explain to me how the opinion of someone who's been a victim of rape is mixing apples and oranges? No really, I want to know. Do you honestly think that if the poster had been taunted by him that her opinion would change that much? Maybe we should ask her. Peacebaby3, if your rapist had come back and taunted you, would your opinion be drastically different? Would you think it was okay to set him on fire and endanger everyone around him?

[truebrit71]

174. I doubt it...

..."see the looks of horror on the faces of those she endangered in her mind". I highly doubt it. What she WILL remember is the look on the face of the piece of filth she set ablaze.

What does stealing my car have to do with a fire?

You told me to read the post. I did. That person stated that they had been raped but sought no revenge. The case we are discussing here involves someone who raped a 13-year old child, got a light sentence, and then taunted the victim's mother upon release. Now, other than the fact that the only similarity here is that there is rape involved, how in the hell are the two similar?

Oh, and you didn't answer my original question, do YOU have a daughter?

[NorthernSpy]

179. in other words, innocent bystanders just don't matter

..."see the looks of horror on the faces of those she endangered in her mind". I highly doubt it. What she WILL remember is the look on the face of the piece of filth she set ablaze.

In other words, there's nothing wrong with being violently reckless with other people's safety and other people's lives, just so long as you get your satisfaction?


Sorry, but what the hell?

[grace0418]

180. Okay fine, so if someone set your house on fire when it was full of

people because they were seeking revenge on someone ("justified" or not), you'd be alright with it as long as no one got injured? Is that a better question?

And why are you asking if I have a daughter? That's apples and oranges! I mean, my daughter wasn't raped, and my daughter wasn't taunted. Was yours? You seem to be able to make such pronouncements of sweeping vigilante justice without haven't gone through what the victim did, and yet you claim Peacebaby3's arguement holds no weight because her rape didn't happen under the EXACT same circumstances.

Oh, and you didn't answer my question about whether or not it would be okay for someone to set fire in your daughter's school as long as nobody was injured.

[truebrit71]

196. I am asking because the reason I reacted the way I have is because I do...

...My responses have been about how I understand the mother's rage, and how I might react if I were in that situation...

Setting fire to my daughter's school has bugger all to do with anything so why ask the question?

[NorthernSpy]

197. actually...

Setting fire to my daughter's school has bugger all to do with anything so why ask the question?

Actually, it has rather a lot to do with whether you recognize the right of others (such as those who were in that cafe) not to be endangered by some person's violent actions -- or whether you prefer to reserve that recognition of right only for those whom you personally give a shit about, such as your own family.

[truebrit71]

202. In the context of the activity, and the reasons behind it,

..the others certainly had their rights infringed, but I really doubt that the mother gave that a moment's thought...and in the heat of the moment I doubt anyone would...

I never said it was right, I said I understood.....

[NorthernSpy]

212. "in the heat of the moment"

As it happened, she wasn't acting in the heat of the moment. After she'd first encountered Soriano that day, she went off, formed a plan, acquired an instrument of murder, and then (and only then) went back to look for him. She took time to decide what she was going to do and how she was going to do it, and so she did have time to think what a pool of flaming gasoline could do to all the other people in the immediate vicinity.

Whatever the reason for it, that sort of frank indifference toward other people's safety and rights makes it clear that society really does need to be protected from her -- no matter how much sympathetic understanding anyone has for her plight.

[truebrit71]

215. I was unaware that there was a time-limit on "heat of the moment"..

...I am pretty sure that she was in a highly agitated emotional state the entire time...Have you ever got into a heated discussion with someone and been totally unaware of your surroundings as the conversation heats up? You become totally focused on what you are doing to the exclusion of everything else. Similar sort of concept.

Not having set someone on fire in bar I can't say with any accuracy what was going through her mind, but I am pretty sure it was all about revenge, and death, and sod all else.

Were her actions dangerous to other people in the bar? Sure. Was that even in her thought process? No. She wanted to kill the sonofabitch, period.

[NorthernSpy]

221. legally, that level of premeditation does make a difference...

At least it does over here. I'm not sure what the Spanish view might be.

It's not that I can't see how a person could become angry enough to do such things, even to the point of ignoring the danger to all the other people around. What I'm saying is that sympathy with that anger is no reason for us to ignore the endangerment of those innocent bystanders, or the premeditated murder of the bad man who was her target, or the fact that she has proved herself to be dangerous and unstable, or the fact that society must be protected from dangerous and unstable people like her and the guy she killed.




(fixed typo)

[truebrit71]

226. Yeah. Or we could kill 'em all and let God sort it out..

..I'm kidding...I'm just so tired of this bickering, and the constant need to prove one's Liberal Bones whenever someone posts something like this...

More proof of the circular liberal firing squads..

[noiretextatique]

251. you are ignoring context

the context of the 'bad man' being someone let out of prison a pass who taunted her about raping her 13 year old daughter. i don't believe a jury...anywhere...will ignore that context.

[NorthernSpy]

259. no, I'm not ignoring the context...

I'm saying that the context neither excuses her actions, nor leads me to believe that she should be allowed to remain free in society in spite of what she did.

[noiretextatique]

260. she has been arrested

so she is not free in society. i assume she will be tried, and if convicted, given some type of sentence. if acquitted, she will go home. that's the way it usually works :shrug:
unless of course you would suspend that process in favor of your judgement :eyes:

[NorthernSpy]

273. let's not get silly about this, please...

i assume she will be tried, and if convicted, given some type of sentence. if acquitted, she will go home. that's the way it usually works :shrug:
unless of course you would suspend that process in favor of your judgement

You're shooting wild. Remember, please, that I have been upholding law and order.

[noiretextatique]

right

if so, what is the problem with my statement? i am not one of the people cheering her actions, but i do think your brand of law and order is missing a few things:
like the trial and conviction.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

253. I'd accept the "heat of the moment" argument, the "just snapped" argument

if and only if she had actually had a can of gasoline and a book of matches with her at the time that the rapist taunted her AND she had set him on fire immediately.

I'd accept the "heat of the moment" argument, the "just snapped" argument if she had, as a poster above suggested, kicked him in the balls after he taunted her. I'm sure that would have sent an effective message to stay away from her family and stop the taunts. It sometimes takes surprisingly little to discourage a bully.

What she did was premeditated murder.

All this vengeful glee about burning someone to death (mostly from men, it seems, although I recognize the names of a few female posters) is obscuring the fact that two actual rape survivors are saying the mother was wrong.

The mother's act was no more "noble" or "understandable" than that of a right winger in eastern Multnomah County, Oregon who shot and killed a couple of teenagers who were trying to break into his truck a few years back.

It's pure vigilantism, and sorry, people, but vigilantism is right up there on the top five list of attitudes that are responsible for the evil in the world.

[noiretextatique]

265. not noble, but understandable

even though i don't condone or cheer her actions, i sure as hell understand them. the same legal system that will likely condemn her to prison allowed the man who raped her 13 year old child a pass to roam the streets freely.
if you don't think that could push someone over the edge...
not even comparable to shooting someone for breaking into a truck.

[grace0418]

198. It has everything to do with your implication that no additional deaths

mean no real crime occured, so who cares if she endangered them with her reckless act? What I'm asking is would you care more if it was YOUR child or loved one endangered? Even if they weren't injured? I put it in the context of your daughter's school because if I had asked "What if your daughter was in the bar?" you probably would've said "That makes no sense! My daughter wouldn't be in a bar in Spain! So why ask the question?"

So can you honestly say that you would feel the woman did nothing wrong if someone you love was present but uninjured? Or if you saw the fire on the news and knew your loved one was in the bar and didn't know if they were okay? Saying that others are wailing and gnashing their teeth over nothing because no one was injured is a poor argument. It's the same kind of logic that allows so many people to be complacent about a number issues that don't directly affect them but are wrong regardless. For example: "What do I care if they ban gay marriage? Nobody in MY family is gay." or "I don't care that 'No Child Left Behind' is a miserable failure because I don't have kids."

Ultimately, you can say you would do the same thing if it happened to your daughter but that doesn't mean you'd be right to do it.

[truebrit71]

199. I agree with your last sentence.

I never said it was right, but I said I understood.

[peacebaby3]

175. You don't know anything about my situation is right.

Actually my attacker was out of jail a few years later and lived in my neighborhood. I passed him in a car one time and he shot me a bird! I kept driving. According to your logic, I guess I should have turned around, pulled out a gun and just started firing into his car. Hopefully, I wouldn't have shot any bystanders, but who cares as long as I killed him. I'm sure the next day I would have felt so much better about being raped!

[truebrit71]

177. No I am not suggesting that you should do that...

..what I AM saying is that if you did, I would completely understand...

[Bouncy Ball]

277. Hey truebrit I'VE got a daughter and you don't love your daughter

any more or less than I love mine, but hell no I wouldn't murder someone in revenge. Shit. Yeah, I'm going to turn into a monster and lose all my humanity? I think not.

This has nothing to do with having a child or not having a child. Vigilante actions are WRONG. Lynchings were vigilante actions and people used to applaud the heck out of those. Do you agree with lynchings?

[Triana]

126. Maybe that ought to be the punishment for all child rapists...

...after a FAIR trial, of course. That would put a serious dent in the numbers of child rape and sex abuse crimes, wouldn't it?

1. the man should have not been out on the streets. PERIOD. EVER.

2. no she shouldn't have torched the a**hole. I can't say I blame her or that I don't understand her emotions but nah she shouldn'ta done that. However HE DID ASK for it, pretty much by raping her child then taunting her about it. WTF did he expect?

Castration is another great option for convicted rapists, IMO. Better than torching, though either one would work to decrease the crime. I can't advocate that people ought to be doing this outside the law (vigilantism) though.

[peacebaby3]

139. Based on other crime and punishment stats it would not put a dent in those

types of crimes.

You hear the same arguments regarding the death penalty, but there is no legitimate proof that it deters murder. In fact, most of the states that don't have the death penalty have as low or lower murder rates than many states that do. Generally speaking, most people that commit heinous crimes are missing the link that connects action to consequence. They only think of the immediate situation. Does that excuse them for what they do? No, but it does provide at least some explanation to those of us that can't seem to comprehend why a person would do something horrible.

Castration. As another person pointed out earlier, rape is usually more of a power issue than a sexual one. Some components of rape/molestation are sexual, but "sex" is really mostly in the brain anyway so even though the parts of the body might not work, the brain will. Instead of raping with a part of the body (which could still be done with castration) they would use something else, but wouldn't stop rape/molestation.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. Were I in the jury, depending of what I saw, I MIGHT acquit her

on grounds of insanity. If they convince me. If not, I'll throw the book at her.

Also, she's an idiot. She has a daughter to care for, but decided that revenge was more important. I repeat, the only possible defense is insanity.

[Stand and Fight]

138. Disgusting.

This place begins to take on an all too eerie similarity to Free Republic...

Her actions are not understandable.
She was and is obviously very disturbed.
She walked away and planned her actions.
She carried out said actions.
She endangered the lives of others.
She should not be cheered on anymore than a rapist.
She has hurt both her spouse and her daughter even more through her actions.
Should she do time in jail? No. She obviously needs to seek psychiatric help of some kind.

Did the people here who espouse her actions bother to read the article? Even her husband and daughter though her actions were wrong. I quote:

The woman's lawyer, Joaquín Galant, told The Sunday Telegraph last night: "The family has suffered a double tragedy. First the attack on their daughter and now this. Both the father and his daughter would like to express their sadness at the death of Soriano."

Furthermore, the fact that this rapist was allowed to return to his home is disgusting yet more. Why should any dammed rapist be allowed out on a furlough in the city, much less in the vicinity of the victim's home, where he committed his crime? I must wonder if the local authorities bothered to inform the family. Perhaps if that had been done the woman's family could have kept a watch out for him. This also begs the question, if this woman suffered from mental illness, what the hell was she doing wandering the streets?

What the hell is up with the dark mentality on this thread? Vigilante justice is wrong no matter how you cut it -- if society begins to take the law into it's own hands than it won't be long till minority rights are infringed upon in nightmarish proportions. This woman's actions, while motivated by anguish and rage, are not excusable and should not be cheered on. She carried out a what is akin to a lynching. Do you people cheering on her actions understand this? She carried out a lynching! Lynching was wrong when it went on here in America and it is just as wrong in Spain.

[dpt223]

189. exactly

Emotions and actions are on two different levels. The emotions and feelings that led her to do this are completely understandable, but acting on those emotions in the manner that she did is completely wrong.

Did this somehow un-rape her daughter? No, it clearly did not.

The whole situation is fucked up. A weekend pass for a convicted rapist? WTF? That has got to be one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard. But, a homocide, and the cheering of that homocide, are wrong as well.

[Stand and Fight]

206. I made some points below.

Please read them. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[oldcoot]

191. The reason for the dark mentality

Almost everyday we read a story about a woman or a child being beaten, raped, murdered and/or tortured. Unfortunately, the families are not always supportive of the victims and kill the victims for destroying the "family honor." In the cases where the assailants are convicted, they often receive short sentences. I suspect that those individuals who are cheering the actions of this woman, are sick of seeing women and children being treated so poorly around the world.

I hope that this women receives the help that she needs and that the Spanish government decides to reexamine its treatment of violent criminals. No violent criminal should ever be given a weekend pass.

[eissa]

194. Bingo

My mother-in-law, visiting us from Syria, is shocked at the amount of news stories involving the raping/killing of children. She laments the fact that our children are basically held hostage indoors because of fears that some sick fuck has a twisted desire to stick his dick up a 5-year old kid.

Fine, setting someone on fire is not right -- you got me. But don't expect sympathy.

[Stand and Fight]

205. Yes and No.

Point 1 -- It is NOT simply an issue for women and children. It is very much a human issue. This and more is happening everyday in Iraq and other places in the name of this country. It is wrong if anything like this is done to ANYONE - regardless of sex, age, or race.

Point 2 -- This woman needs help, not punishment. Simply jailing her will not be solving the problem, and will surely lead to the further sadness of the family. She needs to see a professional so that she can get things worked out and eventually return home to her family -- her crime forgiven. It should be mandatory and state sponsored because of the next point.

Point 3 -- This violent offender should have never been allowed out for a 3-day pass - especially back to the area he committed his act. What are the statistics in Spain that would lead this practice to continue despite what seems to us -- outsiders -- as common sense?

Point 4 -- Before we can fully understand this, we have to ask if this was the first time he had been let out on furlough. If not, what was his previous history on such "excursions"?

Point 5 -- No one is asking if this 69-year old man had family and friends who cared for him. A wife, children, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters... Surely, they were ashamed of his actions, but I am sure they are quite distressed at what has happened to him.

Point 6 -- The whole damn situation is fucked up, period.

[oldcoot]

250. Identification with the victim and the concept of unfairness

Yes, men are often victims of violence. However, women are more likely to become victims of certain types of violence because of their sex than men. For example, in some countries, women are often killed (adultery) for behavior that would be tolerated by men. Unlike men, women are also expected to sacrifice a great deal of their freedom for safety. In some countries, women are abused if they do not dress "modestly" (i.e. cover their bodies from head-to-toe). The idea that one person might receive poor treatment because of his/her sex, race, religion, or sexual orientation is outrageous to many people because such behavior conflicts with their sense of fairness. This is why many of us bristle when we read stories about honor killings, female infanticides, female circumcision and rape being used as a form of punishment. This does not mean that we approve of violence against men.

This situation is also unfair. Why should a convicted rapist be in a position where he could taunt his victim's mother? Does this mean that she should have torched him? No, she should not have done this.

I suspect that parents would also tend to sympathize with the mother because they imagine how they would feel under the same circumstances. Almost every day I receive a flier with the name and photograph of a missing child. Both newspapers and television channels often feature stories about missing children or children who were victims of violent crimes. I am not a parent, but I can only imagine how constantly being exposed to tragic stories about children might influence my behavior. This does not mean that a violent crime committed against a child is any worse than a violent crime committed against an adult. I am sure more than one mom or dad has imagined what he or she would do if someone touched his or her child. This does not mean that they should act on such feelings.

[evolved Anarchopunk]

140. shrug, i got no qualms here.

"As with anything, everything should come down to the individual"

[NorthernSpy]

141. "As with anything, everything should come down to the individual"

But for those of us who'd rather not live the Lord of the Flies lifestyle, I recommend law and good order.


If someone chooses to start playing with gasoline and matches near me, you can bet your ass I'll have "qualms" about it. The thing is, I think that the people in that bar had just as much right as I have NOT to be endangered like that.

[evolved Anarchopunk]

203. my listless and detached tone was unintentionally offensive

to you and i'm sorry. i spoke from the perspective of the post:
the one where this transpired like a drama of misguided women empowerment,
where true justice is definite,
where the people who had to witness this horrific event weren't mentally scarred by the imagery for the rest of their lives,
and the incident does not threaten a wider sense of social order and safety constructed over generations by the cooperative handling of grievances.
of course none of this is true

it's true i wont defend a position i know i cannot, but more than that i will not alienate you, esp. being someone who read and understood Lord of the Flies and seems like an otherwise decent intellectual, over such a trivial and distant event.

Sorry again, can we :shrug: it off and be :pals:? good

[grace0418]

142. Would you have any qualms if you were in the crowded bar

when the fire started? If you or your companion were also set on fire, or got trampled by people fleeing?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

144. wow

[Maru Kitteh]

145. I would have been happy to hand her the matches

It's what every parent would love to do to some piece of FILTH that hurts your child.

Bravo and well done indeed.

[mopaul]

146. I do love a happy ending

[NorthernSpy]

150. Hello? Fire in a crowded building ENDANGERS INNOCENT PEOPLE!

I'll ask yet again why putting bystanders at risk of injury and death is acceptable.

Be honest. If YOUR loved ones had been there -- peacefully eating and drinking -- and some nut started tossing burning gasoline around, would you still be cheering?


Honestly, now!


:eyes:

[grace0418]

152. And if your loved one was in the bar that she torched?

Would you still be applauding her? What if your loved one was also burnt, or was trampled in the rush to get out? Would you still have been happy you handed her the matches? And what if you met this woman's daughter, who has to deal with the fact that she's been raped (that didn't change) and now has the added pain of watching her mother go to jail? Would you still be glad?

[Bouncy Ball]

279. WHAT THE FUCK?

SERIOUSLY, WHAT WEBSITE AM I ON????

I know it can't be freeperville, because the layout isn't giving me an instant headache, but hell's bells, people, you'd MURDER your daughter's rapist????

My God. So how would that make you ANY better than him? Actually you'd then be a murderer.

No thanks. I love my daughter dearly and I won't say I wouldn't entertain a few sick fantasies about what I wanted to do to the guy but I have something called morals and I don't want to live with the burden of knowing I torched the guy to death. Geez. What the hell is going on around here??? She even pre-meditated it, for crying out loud!

[Goldmund]

151. It does tickle the lowliest instincts I possess

But the rapist got to face the law, and so should she. For murder.

[opihimoimoi]

156. A very good ending to an evil Bad guy.....I luv it....

[maxsolomon]

158. Antonia's Line

this is almost exactly what happened in that movie.

"rough justice"

[GiovanniC]

160. This Woman DID THE WRONG THING

Clearly, she should have detached his genitals using only a rusty fork.

[kaitykaity]

169. He should've kept his mouth shut.

I'm not saying what she did was right. It clearly
is wrong to kill somebody.

But damn, you gotta figure she prevented a couple or
three future rapes that day.

[Kelvin Mace]

170. *sigh*

Yes, our visceral impulse is to cheer.

I understand why she did it. I can sympathise with the rage, but it was still wrong and cannot be condoned.

We can never condone vigilantism. Once you cross that line, you are hanging out with the lynching crowd.

She must be punished and not in a token fashion.

Personally, I would have kicked his teeth down his throat and dragged him back to jail. This would also be wrong, but I would take my punishment and ask for no leniency.

[Bouncy Ball]

280. I would be ok with kicking his teeth out.

But torching him to death and cheering it? Damn, I am so creeped out by this thread I need to get out of here.

Thanks, Mace, I agree with your post.

[GeekMonkey]

172. While I agree he 'deserved' it, I would rather avoid Vigilantism

2 wrongs dont make a right but 3 rights make a left

[VOX]

184. Emotionally, I applaud her. Legally and rationally, I cannot condone...

her actions. What sets human beings apart is their ability to rationally resolve situations, including criminal actions -- no matter how grevious -- in an orderly and just manner.

I can understand this woman's rage --if I laid eyes the man who raped my daughter, I'd want to kill him with my bare hands. I hope someone would restrain me from doing so.

The downward spiral of crime and killing can only be stopped when humans learn to think beyond their primitive and chaotic need for revenge.

Sadly, I'm not altogether sure that this is possible.

[democrat_patriot]

193. "Well done" ?? Indeed.

If he asked her "How's your daughter?" Burn.

[Chomp]

201. I disapprove...

...of what she did in a high-minded, liberal, effete kind of way. Should people practice this kind of vigilantism? No way. A lynch mob is just about the most disgusting and terrifying thing I can imagine.

But frankly, in the real world, in this particular case, fuck the bastard.

[kwolf68]

208. Im not for vigilante' justice

But I totally empathize with this women.

[Pithlet]

209. The mother in me says "brava!"

I don't support vigilantism. But, while I can't condone them in the legal sense, I completely understand her actions.

[katinmn]

210. Burn, Baby, Burn

Sorry to be so callous but I have a 13-year-old daughter and if someone robbed her of her sense of security like that and then taunted me after -- well, he had it coming, both for his violent attack and his stupidity.

If he had an ounce of decency he wouldn't have gloated and perhaps he'd be alive today.

[NorthernSpy]

217. your avatar is a picture from Abu Ghraib...

... and the caption says "no more excuses".

Our soldiers in Iraq get killed -- and suffer the loss of their comrades -- every day, yet you evidently recognize that this is not a sufficient reason for them to torture and kill the imprisoned fighters of the other side.

Putting it all together, it's clear that you to set high standards for other people to meet -- even while you refuse to apply those same standards to yourself.

What's that about?

[katinmn]

224. Yes, I maintain high standards. It is not ok to rape 13 y.o. girls

and then rub it in the mother's face.

The prisoners in Abu Ghraib were not raping 13 year olds, as far as I know. It has come to light, though, that some Abu Ghraib juvenile prisoners were being raped and people representing American chose to take pictures and video of it. Many of the prisoners were petty criminals or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I know you are trying to draw a parallel between this case and Abu Ghraib but there just isn't one.

You have pity for the rapist but I will reserve mine for others that are much more deserving.

[NorthernSpy]

231. watching your buddy get his guts blown apart all over the sidewalk...

... isn't an understandable provocation to violence in your book? Even if the torturer sincere believes that he is justified, and that by inflicting his cruelties on the prisoners he holds responsible, he may be able to extract information that will ultimately prevent similar horrors in the future?

"No more excuses"? Oh, indeeeeeed. :eyes:

You have pity for the rapist but I will reserve mine for others that are much more deserving.

Actually, I haven't said anything about having pity for the rapist. The very fact that you feel compelled to try this ploy suggests that things aren't going well for you on that moral consistency/hypocrisy front.

[katinmn]

233. Oh puhleeze. So you believe those tortured at AG had it coming?

And to answer your question: If your buddy was in the act of raping a 13 y.o., well hell yes.

[NorthernSpy]

237. .. you howl, very carefully "missing" the point.

That remark about hypocrisy and double standards and the need for moral consistency has touched a nerve, I see.

[katinmn]

241. You don't have a point. eom

[NorthernSpy]

243. of course I have -- it's just not one that you can deal with...

... evidently.

[katinmn]

245. Yeah, I can't deal with torture apologists

[NorthernSpy]

247. it would seem that you are one yourself...

... since you do applaud setting people on fire.

I'm the one who consistently refuses to support that sort of thing.

[Pithlet]

254. You are really going over the top, here.

You can't possibly understand the bond between mother and child, and know that that fierce protectionism can draw people to do insane things? A child was raped, and the rapist taunts that child's mother. I don't know about anyone else, but if someone had raped and tortured my child and then rubbed my nose in it, I doubt I'd stay sane. It doesn't mean I should get a free pass to do whatever I wanted to punish that person. But, surely a reasonable person would at least understand the temptation?

And before you accuse me of supporting what she did, I do not. I believe she should be prosecuted, and I do think she did the wrong thing. Your points that she also endangered other people are spot on. But I find your attacks against people in this thread to be distasteful. There is a HUGE difference between "cheering" the actions of an enraged mother who's child was raped, and apologizing for a government torturing people. A little perspective isn't such a bad thing.

[NorthernSpy]

267. well, someone's sure going off the deep end here, but it's not me...

But I find your attacks against people in this thread to be distasteful. There is a HUGE difference between "cheering" the actions of an enraged mother who's child was raped, and apologizing for a government torturing people. A little perspective isn't such a bad thing.

What a steaming pile of nothing relevant!

I haven't "attacked" anyone, as you could see well enough for yourself if you'd bother to read what I've actually said. What I have done is to point out a moral inconsistency. And that's just what it is.

You can't possibly understand the bond between mother and child, and know that that fierce protectionism can draw people to do insane things? A child was raped, and the rapist taunts that child's mother.

I "can't possibly understand"...? Just what the hell is that?

Look here: You. don't. know. me.

[iverglas]

278. I think you're projecting

In a nice way. Interpreting everybody else as being as decent as you.

"That sick pedophile fuck got what he deserved; the mother should be given a frickin medal in my opinion."

That's just one comment pretty randomly plucked from the batch here.

That isn't an expression of understanding of how people can be driven to do awful things when awful things have happened to them.

There is a HUGE difference between "cheering" the actions of an enraged mother who's child was raped, and apologizing for a government torturing people.

But that's the whole point: there isn't. (And that "cheering" doesn't belong in quotation marks; it was very literal.)

The rule of law, and basic human decency, calls for both acts to be condemned.

Equity, and basic human decency, can call for us to act mercifully toward the people who commit them, if the appropriate mitigating factors are present.

You plainly agree with both principles. There is no reason to believe that the person whose statement I quoted above (eissa) does.

When both principles are applied, we may well want to spare a particular individual harsh punishment, after considering *all* of the circumstances of the case. But we simply cannot applaud acts like this woman's and still claim adherence to the basic principles that comprise the rule of law.

There are arguments for excusing someone who commits torture as well as for excusing someone who sets the person who assaulted her child on fire. One case may be harder to make than the other, but they will both turn on their facts: the nature and circumstances of the act, the nature of the victim, the nature of the individual who committed it, the motivation, the presence of duress (whether threats or extreme emotional suffering ...), and so on.

But unless we agree on what the principles are, and agree to apply them consistently, we can hardly claim to be civilized.

[Bouncy Ball]

281. Excuse me but

I can understand loving a child.

"You can't possibly understand the bond between mother and child, and know that that fierce protectionism can draw people to do insane things?"

I am a mother, I understand that bond well. But I would NOT allow his criminal, disgusting action to turn ME into a monster, as well.

Now her daughter is going to have a mother in prison. How the FUCK did that help her daughter?

It didn't.

[DistressedAmerican]

270. ANY PARALELL YOU DRAW BETWEEN THE TWO CASES IS UNACCEPTALBLE!

There is no moral equilivency here!

What are you thinking.? DO you really believe the folks that are being torturesd over there are rapists (i.e.tortures) themselves? How many innocents are involved.

You should be ashamed of your statements on this issue.

GROSS.

[NorthernSpy]

272. not so much "unacceptable" as inconvenient...

.. for some of those who fancy themselves morally superior.

There is no moral equilivency here!

Why, isn't that just how Bush's supporters rationalize the torture? They compare it to the mass murder of 9/11, and insist that it's not as dreadful as that.

What are you thinking.? DO you really believe the folks that are being torturesd over there are rapists (i.e.tortures) themselves? How many innocents are involved.

Oh, I'm quite sure that many of the people currently in custody have indeed committed unspeakable acts that have harmed and destroyed innocents. But I maintain that torture is beyond the pale, whether it is deserved or not.

[DistressedAmerican]

274. Unacceptable Because We Are Talking About A CONVICTED Rapist.

To be clear I do not condone the act described in the original post.

However, as the people being tortured in our facilities are uncharged, untried and unconvicted comparing them to the convicted rapist described above simply ASSUMES THEIR GUILT and justifies the abuse.

Your analogy (as you described it) makes it sound like you condone the torture since the soldiers doing it are under battlefield stress.A single isolated incident such as this can in no way be compared to widespread institutionalized torture.

There simply is no parallel. We know (at least at a legal level) that this guy did something VERY hurtful to a little girl. We have no idea if those being tortured did anything or not.

You should consider looking for a better angle to make your point than minimizing these grievious abuses. It does not serve your argument well in the slightest!

This analogy makes you look like a torture apologist, which I assume you do not intend...

[DistressedAmerican]

268. Are You Defending Torture? What Is Your Point?

Your implicatiuon that those we are torturing deserve it makes me ill!

THERE IS NO EXCUSE!

[NorthernSpy]

271. no dear, I'm the one who CONSISTENTLY opposes such things...

Some people oppose torture only in those instances in which they already happen to dislike the parties doing the torturing.

But, you see, I'm not one of those people.

[truebrit71]

229. Not that we're feeling holier than thou or anything right???

:eyes:

I'm sorry but when did YOU become the arbitor of logic and common sense?

Why are you more concerned about the rights of the unharmed people than you are about the (original) victim in this case? Why do you hate 13 year-old girls?

[NorthernSpy]

235. my, that one sure took the cake!

I'm sorry but when did YOU become the arbitor of logic and common sense?

It might have been when I decided to try and to advocate a little logic and common sense -- instead of simplemindedly screeching approval of the big firey spectacle like a delighted baboon.

So few wanted the job, sad to say.

Why are you more concerned about the rights of the unharmed people than you are about the (original) victim in this case? Why do you hate 13 year-old girls?

What a perfectly absurd thing to say!

First, I will have to point out to once again that to be put at serious risk of injury or death IS to be harmed. The "no injury to bystanders = no crime" logic doesn't work for drunk drivers, and it shouldn't work for this woman.

Second, I'll also have to point out (though I shouldn't have to) that I have not expressed any hatred of thirteen-year-old girls. I remember fondly having been one myself. That you throw in this utterly wacky accusation says nothing about me, but a great lot about you.

[katinmn]

239. Simpleminded Screeching Baboon

If the title fits, wear it.:bounce:

[truebrit71]

242. So you ARE more concerned about the victim then?

:eyes:

The entire post was sarcastic..

[NorthernSpy]

246. oh, there's plenty of concern...

... for all who are wronged. It's not some kind of zero-sum game.

[Bouncy Ball]

282. Hello??? The mother did something that will probably cause her

to be sent to PRISON!!! HOW is that helping her daughter? Tell me, how?

How does it help her daughter to allow the sick actions of this man to turn her into a monster who would torch a man in a crowded building?

Vigilante actions are WRONG. No two ways about it.

[Burma Jones]

211. If You rape a 13 year old girl, you shouldn't get a 3 day pass

If you taunt the victim's Mother, you are even more of a sick fuck. I understand the Mother's action, but have to say that setting a fire in a crowded bar is a criminal act and that we all have to accept what the Justice System metes out. I also think 9 years for rape, especially of a minor, is extremely lenient.

[paula777]

223. My only regret is he didn't have to live with terrible, painful burns

[Bouncy Ball]

283. He lived for 11 days or so, that's what the article said.

Or maybe it was 11 hours. Is that enough to satisfy your blood lust?

[smirkymonkey]

225. "He was aaasking for it!"

:hide:

[RPM]

234. awww fuck - another one of these threads

I'm staying out of it this time.

You lawless vigilantists and cold-hearted legal-eagles can have your fun without me...

:hide::popcorn::hide:

[I Have A Dream]

263. I would probably have done the same thing...

because he was trying to intimidate her. What would he do once he got out permanently? Her child should not have to live in fear for the rest of her life.

Unlike some other liberals, I have a gun and will use it to defend myself, my friends and my family. As another poster recently said in a separate post, I wouldn't start it, but I would finish it.

If I'd go to jail, so be it; at least my child would be safe.

[Moderator]

284. Locking

This has become inflammatory and this
thread has run its course.


DU Moderator