Arnold lost, Arianna Won, Greens candidate semi-obnoxious

[janekat]

Cruz did ok, McLintock did ok.

[cherryperry]

1. Agreed, Agreed, Agreed

Nope, at first seemed like he knew he is toast if recall goes down;

NOPE - what a fascist!!!

:bounce:

:hi:


:kick: :kick:

[Room101]

6. I think Arianna won and Camejo impressed me big time.

Arnold is truly an actor.

[Cloud]

2. I thought Camejo did the best

Arnold still didn't have any good answers as usual. I like the guy. Just not his political career.

[MidwestTransplant]

3. I think they all looked like fools except for McClintock, really

and the Green dude did ok too I think.

[haymaker]

7. Come on!!!

McClintock is a fuckin' tool. He did nothing but pander to the nutcase right and looked like a ventriloquist doing it, except without the puppet.

[cherryperry]

11. Right on !!!

eom

[Nederland]

30. I agree

I think its because the people on the extreme right and the extreme left are able to present the most consistent message. The rest were worming their way around the issues, trying not to offend anyone. I disagree with McClintock, but at least I walked away from the debate knowing where he stood on the issues--which is far more than I could say for Arnold or Cruz.

[WaterDog]

4. Agreed except

I thought Camejo did pretty good.

[Clete]

5. I liked both Bustamante and Camejo for their

positions and how well they stated them. McClintock used the same old Repuke talking points, the same old conservative BS. Arnold was plain stupid and inarticulate and Arianna for the most part wanted a piece of him. I am sure he is still pulling her fingernails out of his face.

[haymaker]

8. You are pretty much right on.

I don't know what these other people were watching.

[janekat]

31. McLintock looks better than "musclehead"

I would think he looks good to the Pubs and other who share his postion. The more Republicans who vote for McLintock, the better for us. It would split the ticket.

I'm hoping that people would take one look at musclehead, compare him to McLintock and refuse to vote for musclehead. I'm sorry - I just can't stand that idiot. It's another case of how some "dumbshit" with no experience can get into some high postion because of their "personality".

It's just "Bush" 2000 all over again.

I can't stand seeing this happen again. This country is just going to look like a bunch of "cowboy dumbshits" again. I'm embarassed to talk to any of my friends and relatives from Europe and Canada.

In addition, this is just going to encourage more "dipshits" to run for office. Why not? If two idiots like Bush can run and win what's to stop ANYONE.

Who's next? Charlton Heston??? Bet he could win - even though he has Alzheimers.

[Adjoran]

9. I was surprised

I thought they all did pretty well. Camejo was especially good, and I was impressed by his presentation.

[smallprint]

10. i've been reading all of the debate threads

and from what i can tell, nobody is agreeing at all about who won or even who did well. i don't think this debate settled much, expect to give more attention to mcclintock, camejo, and huffington.

i personally thought camejo was a terrible public speaker, but passionate, and made a fierce attack on bush and the war on iraq in his closing statement, which i loved.

edited for spelling

[janekat]

42. I loved what Camejo SAID - he just didn't present it well

he just really grated on me for some reason. He did have some great moments, however. One little snippet that he gave was "beautiful" but then he just reverted back to being "shrill." Knidof reminded me of Nader.

[Andromeda]

12. Arianna was the clear winner...

She was the only candidate to bring up BUSH and what this administration has done to California. Why didn't Bustamante and Camejo do that too?

[cherryperry]

54. I certainly agree with you here 100%!

eom

[HazMat]

13. Arianna is an annoying, parasitic media whore

She went after Arnold (another idiot who needs to stick to his day job) for no other reason than to make all of the headlines along with him. Arianna has always been, and always will be nothing but a media whore. She's at like 2% in the polls yet talks 80% of the time. Shut up already, Arianna ! I wish she would just go back to being a conservative so they would have to deal with her.

McClintock, Camejo and Bustamante argued their cases seriously, intelligently and substantively. They presented themselves as serious candidates with a plan.

But of course politics has become all about entertainment. Wouldn't want policy to get in the way of the comedy show.

[tlb]

15. The major loser was Gov Davis.

The debate at least established finally there are serious alternatives. Davis isn't necessary.

You state it well:

"McClintock, Camejo and Bustamante argued their cases seriously, intelligently and substantively. They presented themselves as serious candidates with a plan."

For the others, Arnold was the dumb jock running for student body president based on his 4 touchdowns in a single game. Arianna was the rich bitch spending her time showing off who everybody hates.

It's a tight call but really I think McClintock barely edged the others out. It won't matter, an abortion opponent won't be elected governor of Ca.

[Classical_Liberal]

28. Call a women a bitch

yeah right. You ought to know a dumb jock when you see one.

[janekat]

39. don't you know - women should know their place?

She should have just "acted like a lady" and kept her mouth "shut."
Maybe she can take musclehead up on his offer to be in his movie. If we act "uppity" - we're bitchy.

Arianna won that debate because she achieved her objective. Not to win - but to bring Arnie "down. He's lost the women's vote BIG TIME and she knew EXACTLY what she was doing. Clips of Arnie attacking her and acting like macho jerk are being shown over and over - and women in California AND across the country are going to be outraged.

[mitchtv]

58. Disagree Davis was major winner

after that debacle, who needs more?

[im4edwards]

23. Arnold and Ariana showed themselves to be unqualified

just egos looking for a camera to talk to. Something to joke about at cocktail parties.

The other three helped their causes as well.

Looks like it will come down to accepting higher taxes (Bustamonte) or cutting spending (McClintock unless Arnold carries the day on star power alone). I have no idea which way they will go.

Camejo may actually be the best choice but have no idea where he is in the polls, if he can catch anyone.

If nothing else the debate did very clearly deliniate the candidates.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. No the real whores are her 4 major competitors.

They have a real history of whoring Arianna completely lacks.

http://www.votearianna.com/cleanhouse

[cherryperry]

55. hee hee hee

as you might recall: been there, signed up, sent to another friend


thx to you, my new friend!


:yourock:

[janekat]

38. Arianna's strategy: bring "Arnie" down - she did the best job...

She's not running to win - she's running to take musclehead down. She's a very politically savvy lady and has been in politics forever. She's a progressive who does everything can can to take down Bush & Co.

Clips will be shown all over the place with Arnold attacking her and looking like a jerk . It is already being shown over and over again. Her strategy worked. Women are going to run away from him in droves.

Arnold's problem is with women - that is the only way he will lose. There's too many "macho" asshole men who will run out and vote for "cowboys" and "muscleheads." Most women don't do that. That's why about 70% of all single women/working women vote Democrat.

[devilgrrl]

44. Exactly!!!

I totally agree with you... Arianna knows she isn't going to win and I think her sole purpose in yesterday's debate was to expose Schwartzenegger and the Bush Crime Family as the frauds that they are. Personally, I think she did a brilliant job because Arnie came across like a complete clueless ass.

As a California resident and voter I'm voting for Camejo (I voted for him in '02 and he gave me no reason not to vote for him again) and I'm voting NO on both propositions...

and that's all I have to say about that.

:shrug:

[janekat]

49. Does Camejo have a chance of winning? Would people vote "green"?

I know California is different than Florida but there is no way he could win the Governorship in Florida or any "middle-of-the-road" state..

I just hope "musclehaed" doesn't get in... We'll really be a laughingstock in the world.

[regnaD kciN]

14. According to the poll at MSNBC.com...

...Ahnuld was the clear-cut winner.

:-(

[cherryperry]

19. Don't be sad, JD

polls are like statistics...

:pals:

[IndianaGreen]

16. Did you watch a different debate from the rest of the country?

Arnold won by not screwing the pooch.

McClintock did very well putting forth is conservative agenda.

Cruz was on cruise control, much too smug and condescending. I was somewhat disappointed, I expected more.

Arianna was shrilled, and she lost points with a lot of people. Too much latte! As a fan of her columns I got to wonder if Arianna, who is at 2% of the polls, is merely using her candidacy as the source for a future book on the recall election.

Camejo was the clear cut winner! Camejo did an effective presentation of traditional liberal Democratic ideals. It is quite sad that those liberal ideals are represented best by the Green Party, and are no longer welcome in the party that was once their champion.

The biggest loser was the man that wasn't there, Gray Davis.

I expressed my honest assessment of the debate, which was quite good and would have been better if the moderator had allowed the candidates to slug it out more than what they did.

Gray Davis should be voted out, but he should be voted out when he is up for reelection, not now. Vote "NO" on the recall.

[_NorCal_D_]

24. Yes, Camejo did well

however if you notice he was never put on the defensive, not once.

The other candidates were constantly on the attack with one another (especially Ah-nuld and Arianna) though Camejo was able to slide right through it all unscathed.

Just an observation.

[IrateCitizen]

25. But didn't Camejo attack Ahnold and McClintock on tax structure?

He was saying that all he wanted was a tax structure under which "the rich would pay their fair share, same as the poor." Neither one would touch it with a 10-ft pole, and usually that kind of talk whips RWers up into a fury.

Could it be because they are actually a little bit AFRAID of him?

[JI7]

17. didin't find camejo obnoxious at all

personally i didn't find camejo obnoxious at all.

[im4edwards]

34. articulate, respectful, intellegent yes, obnoxious no.

I was rather impressed, thought he made his points well and worked the framework of the debate well. Anyone know what his numbers are ? I guess being a green he isn't likely to win but he's a far better choice than Bustamante to me.

[cherryperry]

56. BTW, I would be remiss if

I didn't say

WELCOME, im4edwards!!!

Also, being green and apparently having some other baggage I have seen referenced but do not have knowledge of myself, he has no chance of actually winning. I believe his numbers (before the debate) were 2 or 3 percent.

What to do, what to do...

Definitely "No" on both propositions; went in thinking "Recall-No; Bustmante-Yes" and now am leaning toward "Recall-Yes; Huffington-Yes" but I see how that will split our vote and better afford entry to Ahnold, so I really have to do some networking and solidifying before voting!

Thank you for your comment and for becoming a DU'er!

:hi:

:kick:

[LynneSin]

18. Did Arnold really tell Arianna he had a job in Terminator 4 for her?

I was listening to the news on WXPN this morning (UPenn college radio) and they had NPR news on there where their blurb about the debate.

If Arnold said this, pretty much it's his way of calling Ariana (who I'm not a big fan of) a bitch without coming out and saying the words. And personally I find that very very offensive. I have no clue how Maria can stay married to that sexist pig. Obviously her Kennedy family is doing nothing to help Arnold get elected

I hope that the smarter folks of California (not the dingbats who are just thrilled for the opportunity of voting for "The Terminator") wake up and smell the coffee. Arnold is no better than some of these folks who are running for governor as a joke - like Mary Carey, Gary Coleman and the other 130 other candidate.

[cherryperry]

20. get this, LynneSin:

Ahnold's reference to Arianna was even worse because he was comparing her to a character in which he had shoved that woman's face into the toilet and all its contents...

What a sexist out-of-touch Moran, oops, moron!


:hi:

:kick:

[hunter]

47. That's what my wife said that too...

"What???? What????" she exclaimed. "He's threatening to stick her head in a toilet????"

The most amusing part for me was when all the candidates stood up at the end. I've met Tom McClintock a few times, but never Arnold. But I have to say this: Last night McClintock looked taller and stronger then Schwarzenegger. I hear that's important to some voters. And I love that cocky gunfighter stare McClintock has.

:evilgrin:

Heh. Watching this debate was a guilty pleasure.

[IrateCitizen]

21. Yes, it's true -- I heard the clip this morning on WBAI

Basically, Arianna was attacking Ahnold, and he kept interrupting her. She then made a remark to the effect of, "We all know about your attitudes toward women," which was probably a reference to how he gave her no respect. The moderator then cut them both off and said that since Arianna had made a "personal attack" on him, he would be allowed to respond. That is when he made the "Terminator 4" remark.

To be honest, I found Arianna to be rather unprofessional during the clips I heard. Granted, she's quite sharp -- but she just tried to tie too much to the Bush Administration through Arnold, not a very good tactic in the debate, IMHO.

OTOH, from what I heard from both McClintock and Camejo, they both did very well. Sure, McClintock was giving the same old Republican talking points, but he came off as very competent (even if totally misguided). As for Camejo, he was articulate, informed, and showed the willingness to address tough issues that the others don't want to address. At one point, he was saying that the tax system in CA is totally regressive, and all he wants is for rich people to pay the same percentage in taxes as poor people. He challenged Ahnold and McClintock to address it repeatedly. Neither one would, but the crowd sure cheered Camejo.

[Nederland]

33. Agreed

Once again I agree with you...I think we are on a roll here. :)

McClintock and Camejo were the most consistent, articulate people out there.

McClintock was consistently wrong, but consistent ;)

[IrateCitizen]

40. One more time and it will be a "trend"...

Ye Gods! :spank:

[IrateCitizen]

22. Camejo obnoxious? You're delusional.

If anyone was obnoxious, it was Ahnold and Arianna.

Just because Camejo's a Green doesn't mean that he's Ralph Nader. Throw your blatant bias in the trash, and try to look at it objectively.

[philosophie_en_rose]

26. Basic Impressions

I love Ariana; she shouldn't win; she won't win. However, the least she can do is insult Schwarzenegger. His demeanor only proves that she was truthful.

To be honest, I think the circus was a little demeaning towards serious candidates like Bustamante and McClintock. McClintock came out unscathed, because he's a Republican and used to dealing with morans like Ahnold. Cruz Bustamante was clearly as annoyed with circus. I'm not sure that that was good.

Overall:

Bustamante: Too damned good to waste on Jerry Springer debates.

McClintock: Although he'll lose and deserve it, he focused on his messages - as loathesome as they are. Say what you will, but at least he has the guts to stand up to the neocon pressure.

Camejo: Good speaker, good message, no chance.

Huffington: Aggressive and accurate. Attacked Schwarzenegger and deflected his toxic stupidity. She won't win, but she makes Schwarzenegger look as ridiculous as he actually is.

Schwarzenegger: Let's get this straight. He is the Krusty the Klown of political candidates - without Krusty's entertainment value. He hates politicians, yet his only change to the system would be to add a aura of incomprehension and lack of skill. He is a mysogynist pig, a racist, and a hypocrite. He is the one who shows up at schools and pretends to be a good old-fashioned conservative - all the while filming such wholesome movies as Terminator 3.

[cherryperry]

50. Wow!!!!

Just a fabulous recap!

So, if you were a Californian, do I take it that you would vote No Recall Yes Bustamante or Yes Recall Yes Bustamante?

Please respond!

:bounce:

:pals:

[philosophie_en_rose]

57. I'm not from California.

I live in Washington. Although I agree with the initiative/referendum/recall process in theory, I am disgusted with the way that the system is abused. I am not a fan of Gray Davis, but I would vote no on the recall and yes for Bustamante.

[Zuni]

29. Camejo is a bit of a loon

I watched an earlier debate, where he reffered to having a border and enforcing immigration policy as 'apartheid', ranted about the oppression of homosexuals and made other ridiculous comments to show how left wing he was.
The only thing I like the Greens on is economics. On social issues they are way out in left field.

[IrateCitizen]

32. His reference to "apartheid" in immigration policy is quite accurate

What the country club Republicans (personified in Pete Wilson) want is a permanent lower class to do all of the hard work in CA (migrant farming, housekeeping at hotels, busboys, dishwashers, etc.) without providing them any opportunity for advancement.

Undocumented immigrants provide an incredible boost to CA's economy, through the work that they do. If they were not around to do it, what do you think would happen to fruit and vegetable prices in the US? What would happen to farms in CA? Who would then provide the labor?

The Republican plan is to simply deny all of these people ANY of the benefits of living in American society -- while still (wink wink, nudge nudge) allowing them to flow into the country to do all of this heavy work while living in shantytowns, condemned to lives of perpetual poverty for generations.

This is not a "left wing" issue. It's a basic issue of human decency, and Camejo is quite right in pointing it out in this manner.

[cherryperry]

51. Hey: IrateCitizen: Over here, please:

DEPORTEES
by Woody Guthrie
The crops are all in and the peaches are rotting
The oranges are filed in their creosote dumps
They're flying 'em back to the Mexico border
To take all their money to wade back again
Goodbye to my Juan, farewell Roselita
Adios mes amigos, Jesus e Maria
You won't have a name when you ride the big airplane
All they will call you will be deportees
My father's own father, he waded that river
They took all the money he made in his life
It's six hundred miles to the Mexico border
And they chased them like rustlers, like outlaws, like thieves
The skyplane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon
The great ball of fire it shook all our hills
Who are these dear friends who are falling like dry leaves?
Radio said, "They are just deportees"
Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can raise our good crops?
To fall like dry leaves and rot on out topsoil
And be known by no names except "deportees"

[IrateCitizen]

60. Ahhh... dear old Woody Guthrie

A true poet and troubadour of the heart of America. Where are ya when we need ya now, Woody? :-(

[CheshireCat]

35. Camejo made a MAJOR impression

He was great. He was the only one who spoke to the poor and middle-class. He had the numbers of now much more the poor and middle class pay in taxes. Increase the tax rate of the uber-rich to that of the poor and the money will roll in.

I know he doesn't have a chance in hell of winning,and that is a shame!

[Greyskye]

36. I was quite surprised

(I posted this in another thread that quickly dropped off the page)

I watched 99% of the debate last night - missed a few minutes as my wife was in class so I had to get the small's dinner ready. :)

My exposure to the candidates pre-debate was this:
Arnold (R)- I've watched his movies.
Senator McClintock (sp?) (R)- Never heard him speak, knew nothing of his personal platform.
Peter Camejo (Green) - Never heard him speak, slightly familiar with the Green platform.
Arianna (I) - Familiar with her writings since her conversion from the Dark Side, like what I've read.
Cruz (D) - Never heard him speak before, was my personal front-runner pre-debate.


My feelings post-debate are thus:
Arnold - Courtesy, in my opinion, is a definining feature of the character of a person. Someone who lacks all pretensions of courtesy has, IMHO, fatal character flaws which will show in other ways as well. Arnold's steam-rolling over any and all in his way showed me his true character - and there isn't any. :(

McClintock - Professional, articulate. If I didn't disagree with 85% of what comes out of his mouth, I'd have decent feelings about him.

Camejo - Articulate, passionate, and had solid ideas on just about every topic touched upon. He had the statistics to back up his views, and not a single member was able to disagree with anything that he said. No one attacked him, as I'm sure he was considered a non-contender by the rest of the candidates.

Arianna - Like Comejo, she was articulate and passionate. She was the only one who even came close to standing up to Arnold's motor-mouth, although that very thing probably lost her 'points' in this debate. And she had the best one-liner of the debate, when she was attempting to keep Arnold from interrupting and talking over her like he had been every other candidate: "I'll just keep talking and we'll see which person with the funny accent can keep going longer" (paraphrased, badly).

Cruz - Cruz, Cruz, Cruz. Seems like a genuinely nice guy, but this debate format was not good for him. I kept thinking back to the Bush-Gore debates, with the feeling that he was in the Gore role. Decent message, mostly well delivered, but his constant muttering of comments into the mic while other candidates talked wasn't as effective (sadly) as interrupting and taking over the conversation. Worst of all was when he fell into 'politician' mode. Speaking in glittering generalities was just not as effective as the specifics that some of the others had.


My opinion, at the end of it all, was that Peter Camejo had actually won the debate. Here is how I feel the rest of the candidates fell out:

2 - McClintock
3 - Arianna
4&5 - Cruz and Arnold

[Character Assassin]

37. Arnold won by not dicking it up. Cruz came off as slimey and shallow

And the wrap-up statement by the Green reminded me of why I don't vote Internationalist.

[4_Legs_Good]

41. I love Arianna, but most people I've talked to were turned off

I thought she did a great job, and she's really serving the progressive agenda by using the pulpit to bring down Bush and Arnie. I don't think she can win anymore, but she's fighting the good fight.

I agree and think that Comejo did the best job of the lot. He's really phenominal, and my clear 2nd choice. You'd think that in California we could actually elect an Independent or Green governor.

McClintock again impressed me by sticking to his guns, even though I've disagreed with every one of his policies and think he would be a disaster for California. I have a lot of respect for a few republicans, even though I disagree with them, I think he's probably one of them.

Bustamante was playing middle of the road way to much - Agreeing with everyone all the time. I think he's a good guy, and will make a good governor, but come on, stand up for something.

Arnie, well, I think if it weren't for Arianna, he would have escaped unscathed and his one liners "TAX TAX TAX/SPEND SPEND SPEND/ Businesses LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE" etc. would have just been accepted and gotten a chuckle. Arianna didn't let him get away with it, so he didn't come out any better than he went in.

All in all, I'm still behind Arianna, though Comejo is tempting me more and more.

david

Kucinich 2004

Arianna YES
Recall No

[im4edwards]

48. I suppose that I missed this point

As Huffington has little or no chance of winning, she might just as well have taken the opportunity to push the progressive agenda as you sugested. Trouble is it really only cluttered the debate as the issue was California, not Bush. I'm afraid her message was lost in her lack of focus and oratorical skill.

Bustamante played it correctly strategically but I'm afraid his message won't sit well with the voters.

Arnold was as ineffective as Huffington and clearly a lightweight.

McClintock improved his chances very much with a well crafted performance. Is there enough time to catch Arnold ? Thats the question.

I really like Comejo but I fear that he's too far behind to supplant Bustamante. He would be a huge improvement over Cruz and Davis.

[janekat]

43. Arianna lost Arnie thousands of women votes - her STRATEGY

she's a samrt lady and knew EXACTLY what she's doing. Don't let her fool ya....

[FDRrocks]

45. She's is definately playing a good role.

Call her a spoiler, but she is hacking away at Arnold to good effect.

I'm still kind of shocked the GOP wants MCCLINTOCK to drop out instead of ARNOLD. Is the fix in? Or are they hitting the sauce a little too hard.

[Demobrat]

46. Camejo was the best by far.

Based on that debate alone, he would be our next governor, IMO.

[cherryperry]

52. However,

that's a good reason not to choose by debate alone. People MUST read up on positions or votes taken as well, IMO.



:dem:

[Emboldened Chimp]

53. Arianna's big mistake

She didn't look into the camera for her closing comments.

[janekat]

59. she doesn't give a rip if she wins.... it's not about that n/t