A Question For DU History Majors....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

I was watching MSNBC and one of Frank Luntz's infamous focus groups....

He was getting them to engage in French bashing.....

One guy appaluded the French for assisting our Revolution...

A Freeper type guy said the French came in at the end and their help was superfluous......

Is that true?

[Padraig18]

1. No!

Without the arrival of the French fleet, Washington would have never been successful in his seige of Yorktown!

[chaumont58]

17. Yep, if memory serves correctly,

the French fleet kept General Sir Henry Clinton from landing reinforcments from New York for Cornwallis. That was the linchpin. That's why we have a 'Stars and Stripes' instead of the Union Jack.

[PurityOfEssence]

28. Three cheers for De Grasse and the French Fleet

They thumped on the British in the West Indies, and kept them from rescuing Cornwallis. That was the end.

They were very helpful from fairly early on, as other posters have shown, and their support was felt financially, through leadership and with manpower. It's not to be taken lightly...

[Brucey]

2. Perhaps our revolution gave them the idea!

[_NorCal_D_]

3. Not true.

They literally came to the rescue. The French surrounded Yorktowns port, thus cutting off their escape route and forcing the British to surrender.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Thank You....

The ironic thing is the French were right and I am far from being a Francophile or a Blame America Firster...

It pains me to say they were right....


No imminent threat, no wmds, no warm welcome...

[XanaDUer]

5. He is wrong.

The French sent 6,000 troops (well-armed troops) to the Battle of Yorktown and blockaded the harbour to prevent British reinforcements from reaching Cornwallis. That is the battle that won the Revolutionary War for the US.

The French sent lots of troops all over the US for the entire war. When Lafayette convinced the King of France to send those troops to Yorktown, Washington was in New Rochelle, NY and sent his troops running south. THis was to engage the British at a place in which the French were planning to arrive to ensure a victory for us.

So google it. Freeper was wrong, of course.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I'm A Poli Sci Major-Post Grad

So my knowledge of history is rudimentary....

It didn't have the ring of truth anyway.....

Thank you...

[XanaDUer]

9. I was not a history major

either, but I love history. Wish I had taken a double major actually.

You're welcome.

[Cocoa]

6. it's a red herring

whatever the specifics of the war, it can't be disputed that France has been one of our country's closest allies, from the beginning, continuing to this day.

[Sagan]

7. Not just Yorktown

In addition to the French contributions at Yorktown, French loans kept the Continental Congress afloat. The French loaned or gave weapons and ships to the upstart Americans.

Including, I might add, John Paul Jones' Bonhomme Richard.

Without France, the U.S. would not exist as we know it today.

[RichM]

10. A link to Wikipedia on Marquis de la Fayette

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_la_Fayette

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. TY

[Yupster]

12. France's Biggest Contribution

was long before Yorktown. The French supplies the colonists with almost all of their arms during the war.

It's been wondered why the Revolutionaries could carry on and even grow in strength despite their largest cities being occupied, while the Confederacy kind of lost its resistance as its cities were occupied. The big difference is that the Confederacy had to defend its cities as arms making facilities because there was little getting past the blockade. The Revolutionaries didn't. They could fight forever without cities or factories because their supplies came from abroad. The Confederacy had to make and provide its own.

BTW - the untold story of the Revolutionary War is how the British fought it. Their plan to win it was to push out the rebel army from an area, and then let loyal citizens (Tories) patrol and defend themselves. It worked for quite a while in the furtherst three southern states, but then Cornwallis overextended into Virginia and got caught. If anyone wonders why the British would fight on for year after year without near enough troops to conquer the colonies, that was the reason, or the strategy. It was a war for the hearts and minds of the colonists -- if that sounds familiar.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Who Said

One third of the colonists favored the Americans

Another third favored the British

and

Another third waited to see who was winning...

[Yupster]

16. Don't know, but

that third -third was the frustrating one to the British. They found that whenever there was a colonial army in the area, the citizens would not rally to the crown. When there were no colonial armies nearby, the citizens would be loyal subjects and would volunteer for the loyal militias and even fight with the British armies.

[rasputin1952]

14. As stated in previous posts...

the French were our allies, basically from the beginning.
But...you have to understand, King Louis was not all that fond of Independence...after all, this could spread.

The French Treasury was bannkrupted, in part because they aided us, and indeed, thoughts of Independence and the overthrow of monarchies DID catch on.

The victory at Yorktown was based on timing, and it worked to our benefit.

The French fought with us at New Orleans, in 1814; and we were against French incursion in Mexico when Napolean appointed one of his more simple relatives as Emperor of Mexico.

The French lost millions in teh Great War, as did the British and the Germans. We came to the aid of France and England, in that war, because we closer to their regimes than Germany's. Add to that the sinking of the Lusitania, and away went the Doughboys.

In WWII, the French were overun in a remakably short time. Better weapons, tactics and a severe lack of training on the part of the French Army led to this debacle. The Brits held out as long as they could, and we aided them both overtly and covertly, until 8 Dec 41, and we actually went to war. The French, after being subjugated by the Germans, were ecstatic that they were once again 'free'. During WWII over a million French soldiers lost their lives. Untold millions of civilians were crushed under Hitlers boots.

We have always been close to Europe, especially the British and French....but you can add others to the list as well; Poland Germany, Italy, Greece, etc.

BTW: we didn't learn much from them in SE Asia...it was the French that said we should not go in, the carnage would be horrendous and it would pull the country apart. They tried to help there too, but we know that sad tale.

[Zuni]

19. Actually in 1940

The French had better weapons than the Germans. The French Tanks in 1940 were better (had better guns and thicker armor) than the Germans, but they split them into small groups while the Germans concentrated theirs.
The real reason was France's terrible stategy, which was to sit behind the Maginot Line and wait for an attack. The French line was outflanked, and many of their reserves were no where near the battlefield.
A sad truth is that the French soldiers that were able to fight often did not. Huge numbers surrendered without firing a shot

[rasputin1952]

24. I agree that outflanking the Maginot Line...

was the key strategic and tactical reality that brought the Germans on to French soil.

But much of the armament, especially small arms, were worthless at best. The training of the French Army left much to be desired, (as did the training of the American army, at the time); and once a compromise was reached with the Vichy Gov't, and Petain caved in...all was lost anyway.

There were attempts at guerilla warfare, but entire towns and villages were wiped off the face of the earth in retribution.

The French were of the mindset as well, that the cream of their manhood had been killed off in The Great War, and they really weren't spoiling for a fight.

By the time D-Day rolled around, the German Army had been pretty well decimated, and it made the punch through Euprope considerably easier.
However, they were still a force to be dealt with, just not quite as powerful as previously shown; especially in the air.

[sandnsea]

39. What about the British?

They were supposed to hold Belgium and the Netherlands. I read a book written at the time where the people were shocked at how quickly the British retreated. How does that fit into the picture?

[rasputin1952]

40. Hence the debacle at Dunkirk...

The irony is, if the French and British would have stood up to Hitler at the outset of the Anschlus and annexation of Austria, or had started a second front immediately after Germany went into Poland, the german onslaught would have crumbled. Hitler gambled and won.

[dsc]

15. Wanna really blow his mind

tell him about Von Steuben's sex life. He only came to the US due to being thrown out of Prussia for being gay. Yep, we won the Revolutionary war due to a gay man and the French.

[PurityOfEssence]

30. Hey, don't forget the jews!

If it wasn't for the generous financial support of Haim Solomon at a very critical juncture, it all could have fallen apart. They, too, have been a very instrumental part of our history. You can still see the yarmulke that George Washington wore at the Tuaro Synagogue in Newport Rhode Island, by the way...

There were all sorts of odd facts about our war of independence (it wasn't a revolution, per se, the local ruling class just threw off the ties with the foreign rulers...) when you look at it. Our best General turned traitor (Arnold), the two most clear-cut major victories were made under the command of ex-British officers (Gates & Lee; although Saratoga is largely a victory due to Arnold's work) and arguably our best General was the son of a Quaker family (Nathaniel Greene).

[Zuni]

18. As usual, the Freeper is wrong

The French Fleet was a key factor in the final victory at Yorktown.
The French also sent military advisors to help put together the Continental Army.
I believe they also sent financial support.

[WoodrowFan]

20. Did he really say "Superflous"??

Such a big word for a Freeper!

And he is WRONG. Sheesh. We would probably have LOST without the French. Others have already noted her the help with arms, plus the French fleet.,.

but also...

they allowed the US to use their ports for our ships, a VERY big deal for commerce raiding (see John Paul Jones)

they helped convince other European states (Netherlands and Spain) to assist the new US further trying up the British


all-in-all a HUGE help....


A few book recommendations:

Age of the Democratic Revolution by Robert R. Palmer Still THE best work on the entire period of the Revolutions in North American and Europe.

Sister Revolutions: French Lightning, American Light by Susan Dunn



Diplomacy and Revolution: The Franco-American Alliance of 1778
by Ronald Hoffman (Editor), Peter J. Albert (Editor)


and an older book, still good..

The Diplomacy of the American Revolution. by Samuel Flagg, Bemis

Bemis is one of the old lions of the Historical profession, one acceptable to any conservative historian.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. That Was My Characterization

He said "they came in late"....

[WoodrowFan]

23. I THOUGHT that word was to big for a freeper!! (NT) (smile)

[Darranar]

21. NO!

The two turning points of the Revolutionary War were Saratoga and the French arrival. Without the French, the war might not have been won, and at the very least would have taken more time and cost more lives.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

25. without the French we would be sing "Hail to the Queen"

[stevedeshazer]

33. Yeah!

And speaking British!

[im4edwards]

26. help didn't come till late but it was helpful

I'm not so sure we could not have pulled it out without them but it did shorten the war.

[Yupster]

29. We needed their guns.

We would have won eventually without their troops. The Parliament was already way sick of the war by the time of Yorktown.

[im4edwards]

32. I believe it was largely some naval work that helped the most

but I've not researched it extensively.

[Yupster]

34. The French fleet at Yorktown

kept the British from evacuating its army in 1781.

But, that was in 1781.

We would have never laster from 1776-1781 were it not been for the continuous supply of French arms which came from France, the Netherlands, and the Caribbean.

[Davis_X_Machina]

27. Anybody who talks about gutless French weenies...

...hasn't seen the figures for WWI casualties.

0ne Frenchman in 14 was killed.
Not one soldier in 14.
Not one military-aged male in 14.

0ne Frenchman in 14 was killed.

If they're not as gung-ho as some chairborne Rangers in Washington think-tanks would like, perhaps the French have earned their reluctance to join crusades/

[PurityOfEssence]

31. Hitler considered the French to be the best soldiers in Europe.

He should have known; he fought them for years in the Great War.

It's also important to remember that 80% of the Allied line on the Western Front was French.

[nolabels]

37. The reason they have to get the hearts and minds is because of...

the underground that forms after the initial confrontations. Most narcissists fail to understand this. They think after they have subdued their perceived enemy, its a done deal, Then their thinking is this so called conquered now will submit without question. (does this sound familiar)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FRresistance.htm
(snip)
On 15th March, 1944, the Conseil National de la Resistance published a charter that demanded a series of social and economic reforms should be implemented after the liberation of France. This included the establishment of universal suffrage and the equality of all citizens. The charter claimed that to ensure true equality it would be necessary to nationalize the large industrial and financial companies. It also called for a minimum wage, independent trade unions, comprehensive social security, worker participation in management, educational equality, and the extension of political, social and economic rights to colonial citizens.

During the D-day landings in June, 1944, the Maquis and other resistance rose up to help in the liberation of their country. This included attacks on the occupied garrisons in the towns of Tulle and Gueret. In revenge for the French attack on the German garrison 120 men were hanged in Tulle on 9th June. Later that day another 67 were murdered in Argenton.

These armed resistance groups were able to slow down the attempt by the 2nd SS Panzer Division to get to the Normandy beaches. It was decided to carry out a revenge attack that would frighten the French people into submission. On 10th June a group of soldiers led by Major Otto Dickmann, entered Oradour-sur-Glane, a village in the Haute-Vienne region of France. He ordered the execution of more than 600 men, women and children before setting fire to the village.

Despite these atrocities the French Resistance continued to take up arms against the German Army. After the war General Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote: "Throughout France the Resistance had been of inestimable value in the campaign. Without their great assistance the liberation of France would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves."
(snip)

[jamesinca]

35. Let us not forget Ben Franklin

He spent a lot of time in France drumming up support for the colonies. Financial and military. He was playing the part of ambassador and statesman and womanizer (legend has it).

[Hamlette]

36. he's an idiot

The French, in addition to what is mentioned above, supplied the revolutionary forces with 90% of the powder (ammunition) without which we would have surely lost.

It was the US that came in at the end...of WWII.

[leftofthedial]

38. No French, No United States of America

unequivocal.

No French help, we lose the Revolutionary War.

[Patriot_Spear]

41. Dead wrong- but it looks like about 40 other people beat me to it!

We ought to start a DU Historians Research Group!

[LanternWaste]

42. "the French Empire has given this Republic a new day..." Gen. Washngton

In the book, "American Aurora" (cannot remember the name of the author at the moment), the author asserts that French munitions accounted for over 80% of all ordnance and ammunition used during the American Revolution in addition to several thousand troops. That the Revolution would have have been unsuccesful and lasted for less than one year w/o French supplies. There were instances early in the conflict in which American commanders, despite numerical superiority, retreated before conflict due to lack of gunpowder and musket shot.

Hard for me to believe that the Revolution would have been succesful without that kind of assistance.

The French Navy was extraordinarily effective at both blockade-ruuning and blockade enforcement.

In the book, then General Washington was quoted as saying, "the French Empire has given this Republic a new day..."