If the photos are released, will it be the end of this evil empire?

[cry baby]

I happen to be of the opinion that it will spell the end for * and his evil empire. It would be the straw that broke the camel's back. What do you think?

[lady lib]

1. What I want to know is...

is this finally enough to try him for war crimes? Do any DUers know?

[justinsb]

7. He's already done enough to be tried for war crimes

but the US, whoever is in charge, would never give up one of thier own for a war crimes trial.

[cry baby]

8. Do you think that, if the photos come out...

will the repubs in congress vote for impeachment?

And here's a question, what body decides who is tried for war crimes? It might not be up to the U.S. whether or not he is tried.

[justinsb]

13. Ultimately it is up to the US

The International Criminal Court is in the Hague, but the US wouldn't sign that treaty (neither Clinton nor Bush), The UN can bring War Crimes charges, but the US could veto the resolution. But, even if Charges were brought, the US would ignore them. Rumsfeld is wanted in Germany on war crimes charges for the treatment of Iraqi's with German citizenship in Iraq but somehow I doubt he'll ever see the inside of a German courtroom.

[emcguffie]

63. Actually, Clinton did sign it.

On his last day in office. But shrub "unsigned" it. It was kind of a big deal. Never been done before.

But there was no chance it was going to be ratified any time soon. And until the USA ratifies it, it is not bound by it.

Theoretically, the Security Council can refer a "situation" involving a non-State Party to the ICC for investigation, but of course the US would never let that happen.

[Journeyman]

11. Well, before we get too excited. . .

let's list our three favorite war crime tribunals involving criminals not captured in the wreckage of their own cities. Doesn't even have to be the most successful prosecutions. Just your three favorites.

I'll start. Josef Stalin at Nuremburg.

Yeah, yeah, I know: He was part of the prosecution. But then, I did set the criteria kind of low. It needn't be a successful prosecution of the example. Just a favorite moment.

Well, that's it for me. Anyone else?

[whosinpower]

2. The photos will never be released

But, should someone leak them out somehow - they could hurt Bush. It would not be the magic bullet however.

I don't think there is a single issue or situation that could dislodge Bush. It will be by painful, hardslugging inches that will lead to thier undoing. JMO.

[cry baby]

5. I think we are going to see those photos.

And depending on the timing, I believe that with the Rove/Traitorgate and DSM, * will have reached the point of no return, I think he'll be toast. I am feeling optimistic today, aren't I?

[samdogmom]

9. You are a Realist! Thank You!

And, I agree. The photos will not come out via legal sources, but they WILL COME OUT! The black market is not always a bad thing. And, I agree, this alone won't bring the administration down. It's a drip, drip, drip...kind of thing. It will take much, much more. (And I don't really want to be a witness to the final straw. I'm sure it's going to be BAD...! Truth be told, I'm scared.)

[truebrit71]

10. I hope you are wrong....

...there has to be accountability for the atrocities done in our name...

[whosinpower]

30. I hope I'm wrong too

But was being totally truthful via my perspective.

Ultimately Bush will be held accountable. That is my gut feeling too. But it won't come easy. One set of damaging photo's won't do it. Each brick ripped down from his defenses will be hard won.

And here is the final issue - should Bush prevail and not be held accountable - then perhaps America is not worth saving - or the fun little experiment of democracy is fatally flawed after all. And then the real revolution begins.

You see, as much as I hate the corruption, the hubris, the lies - I still believe in the system - and it is facing its greatest threat right now. I desperately want the system to right itself and prevail - but if it cannot, or will not - then perhaps the system is too flawed and we should then abandon it, reject it and take steps towards a better way.

[Booster]

29. That's what Nixon thought too.

[autorank]

3. I think you're right, if they contain what we've been told.

I'll never forget the look on Sen. Graham's face and a couple other R's when they were interviewed after the special viewing. They had just seen "the horror."

Some will react by saying they never should have been released, but the general revulsion will sweep the nation, not to mention the world and we'll be asking ourselves:

"What are we doing here?" "Who are we?" :wtf:

Then people will become angry and look for someone to blame (afterall, it "can't be our fault") and they will blame Bush/Cheney/Rummey, etc.

That's IF they're released...(I know there has been a court order but these folks think they're "above the law).

Well they're not but that doesn't stop them from stealing everything that's not nailed down:

A comprehensive explanation of fraud--text and key links

GREAT POST/NOMINATED

[fooj]

6. Believe it or not...most Americans don't even know the pics exist.

IMO, they'd better have a nice little island in mind if those pics are released. They'll be toast.

Peace.

[autorank]

12. Well, see the film "Island"...that would be perfectfor them! (LOL)

[julialnyc]

14. Most people have no idea.............

I just got back from a two week vacation and I have to look up what I missed in the world (even thoiugh I read American papers the whole time I was gone).

[Otm Shank]

4. gee, I don't know...

...this is the same administration that points to forest fires and says, "See? We need to cut down more trees!"

I do think, however, that it will divide the Repubs, many of whom will want to distance themselves from the perpetrators if but to run their own repressive campaigns.

[iconoclastic cat]

15. The END? Ha!

I am beginning to believe that no matter what happens, about 42% of our country's voters will support for the fascists. And that includes some memebers of the DLC. (Snare drum rimshot, please!) Baby-eating cliches apply here, I believe.

What the matter with you, kid? Don't you know there's a civil war on?

[cry baby]

17. That is how I felt yesterday. Today, I am more optimistic.

I can't imagine anyone condoning rape and murder in our name if they actually see the pics. Am I just dreaming?

[iconoclastic cat]

18. They already have. "They" being the apologists/twits like Limbaugh and co.

They have and they will.

[Disturbed]

20. "they will blame Bush/Cheney/Rummey, etc."

"They"? If those photos, esp. the Videos, are seen by the public at large, most would blame the Liberal Media for showing such trash and being UnAmerikan. I seriously doubt that these photos will ever be out. They will be "accidently" destroyed. I am surprised they still exist. What could anyone do about it if they were, eh?

[iconoclastic cat]

21. To whom are you replying?

I think you missed.

[hwmnbn]

25. hey cat, I share your pessimism.....

but I don't think the RW Media can put a good spin on rape and sodomy of women and children by our military. How would Fox "tease" that segment?

It's a long shot, but when the videos are shown, I think even the most devout RW evangelical christian MIGHT NOT buy that it was bush "just doing God's work."

I'm envisioning a scene like when the villagers come to the tower (White House) with pitchforks and torches to get Frankenstein (bush). How would Fox "tease" that?

[iconoclastic cat]

26. You know, I really don't feel like a pessimist.

I'm not a glass-half-full person. I'm more of a realist: fifty percent of the total volume of the glass is water, and the other fifty is air.

That said, I think the fundies can brainwash themselves into justifying nearly anything.

Fox and friends (shudder) don't need to justify it: they'll just blame it on Boston.

[hwmnbn]

16. IF judge rules against the administration......

and orders the immediate release of the photos/videos, wouldn't it cause a constitutional crisis (ala release of Nixon tapes)? Instead of the president being held in contempt, it would be Rumsfeld of DOD.

A public fight would give this issue some high visibility and media attention. Wouldn't people start seriously wondering, questioning, and possibly acting up?

[cry baby]

19. I think that Rumsfeld would be held in contempt. A public fight is

exactly what we need, whether the photos come out (legally) or not.

I think the photos will come out one way or another.

Welcome to DU hwmnbn!

:hi:

[hwmnbn]

37. thanks cry baby.....

been lurking here awhile.

:hi: back at ya

[texanwitch]

22. The Bush wall is cracking, little by little. The pictues will be a major

blow, a lot of decent Americans will finally say enough is enough.

The Repuplicans in Congress wanting to keep their nice jobs will turn on Bush, rats do turn on each other on a sinking ship.

What politcal capital Bush has will be gone, child rape is not something that will be overlooked.

We just have to keep up the pressure, and the wall will come down.

The Republican party is not all powerful, if we had a real Democrat Party, Bush would have been gone a long time ago.

We need to look at the big picture and think long term, I am not willing to give up my country to a bunch of thugs.

[progressoid]

23. I doubt it

Most people (including corporate media) can't see the connection to the WH. People just want to slap a ribbon on their car and watch Desperate Housewives. The fact that Gonzales and the WH green-lighted this behavior will be ignored or forgotten.

Domestically it'll be presented as an uncommon and unfortunate incident in the US. Internationally, it will be another (large) nail in our coffin of respectability and honor.

[lady lib]

24. I don't think the Dems will make significant progress until

--They acknowledge and work to correct election fraud. As long as the Rethugs are counting the votes, there is no Democracy.
--They decide for once and for all what they stand for and CLEARLY and PROUDLY share those beliefs with the American public.
--They accept the horrible truth that the Bush crime syndicate was responsible for 9-11 (and possibly 7-7 and God knows what other bombings). And that they'll do it again and again to get whatever they want, i.e., more wars and a police state here at home.

There are more, but this is what comes to my tired mind right now.

[sweetheart]

27. No, it needs to be totally broken

Like when russia left behind the CCCP, this evil empire must be broken
entirely. Since this seems unlikely politically, it is happening
economically, as the implicit alliances and endemic agreements of
collective global business bring to bear equalizing pressures that
deflate US power and diminish it so much so, that what remains is a
regional power needing allies and friends to get along, and not a
global military empire of bases with space weapons, and a massive
terrorist arsenal that is used with impunity to mass murder tens
of thousands of people for political expediency.

[cry baby]

28. I agree that it is happening economically, but I'm impatient...

I'd like to see this admin out of power yesterday! The longer they are in power, the further marginalized the US is internationally. I am going to hope that these pics will speed up the process of * elimination.

[Swamp Rat]

31. No matter what, the end of their reign is coming soon.

They went up against the CIA and now they are gonna pay for it. Mark these words: they are CHUM! :)

[Kraklen]

32. There was a gay prostitute working for the white house.

There was a gay prostitute working for the white house.

There was a gay prostitute working for the white house.

No.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. Words can be ignored...

Images, not so easily.

[Kraklen]

35. There was a gay prostitute working for the white house.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Well, lets hope the judge rules that they have to stop fucking around

and release that stuff, then you can prove me wrong.

[Gay Green]

40. If he does, he will be assasinated

and the local authorities and the MSM will call it a "mysterious suicide."

BFEE modus operandi. :mad: :grr: :nuke:

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Here's why I think they could be a BIG problem for Bushco.

If they're as bad as some are saying.

Look around at the people who support Bush- constitute his *base*... They're uniformly walking around in this trance-like state of denial; mere words in the newspaper don't make it through the fog, if the folks read at all.. And what do so many of them list as their reason for supporting Bush, in the face of economic destruction at home and failed wars abroad? His "moral values". They believe he's a "moral man", a "good Christian". Just look at the letter from the sadly deluded woman who wrote congress.org and told the President she voted for him because of his "values" and now she can't understand why her state-assisted health insurance is gone...

Well, duh.

If the evidence proves -visually; any other way the media and admin. spinmeisters will ignore or obfuscate it- that not only was some extremely horrible shit done to people in our name, but it wasn't just a case of a "few bad apples", it was systematic and deliberate- the admininstration knew it was going on and then tried to cover it up...

Yeah, I think that might wake a few of these zombies up. I would hope.

[cry baby]

38. shameless kick for evening crowd (and maybe I'll catch a troll)

:kick:

[RagAss]

39. kick

[Frederik]

41. Nope

And we don't know exactly which photos are ordered released. There are close to a thousand photos in the DoD's possession, so it's unclear whether the worst photos are included.

Sadly, I think it will take more than some more Abu Ghraib photos. I think the junta still have some tricks up their sleeve, too.

[cry baby]

43. What if the photos come out in a different way, maybe leaked?

All of them...what do you think will happen?

[Frederik]

60. That would be a serious blow

It would be interesting to see how the public would react. Many are clinging to the "few bad apples" theory, even though the commander of the prision, designated scapegoat Janice Karpinski, was ordered not to visit the prison after nightfall. Even though several has testifies that these imaginative "interrogation techniques" were introduced by a team from Guantanamo lead by general Miller. Yet some commentators still insist that this happened "on one shift". People just need to see things with their own eyes before they will believe them. If all the pictures were "leaked", then it would probably be difficult to cling to the bad apples theory and necessary to look a little higher in the chain of command for those really responsible.

Would it mean the demise of the Bush regime? Don't bet on it.

[Dr Fate]

42. Which Top Democrats are calling for the release of these photos?

Did I miss somthing?

[cry baby]

44. sadly, I haven't heard of any that have publicly demanded the

release. It's the ACLU that filed the FOIA.

[Dr Fate]

49. Oh-I forgot-the "strategists" who lost the last 3 elections...

...all decided that telling the truth about Bush is unpatriotic- my bad.

Well, since the mainstream ACLU is on this, I guess everything will go fine.

[cry baby]

51. The ACLU has the $$ to at least try to get the truth out...

I guess I'm going to pin my hopes on whatever might get results. Our courageous dems in congress aren't doing it...I can't personally do it...DU can't do it...Who else should we depend on to get this done?

[Dr Fate]

52. I guess the ACLUs and Micheal Moores are our only hope.

Cuz you are right- the DEMs with media access are too frightened to touch virtually anything that makes Bush look bad.

[cry baby]

54. Yeah,

it's sad that all congresscritters that saw the video and pics haven't said much about them. The only one I can remember hearing anything on this subject from was Lindsey Graham (R). He said the pics showed rape and murder, why didn't anyone pick up on that?

[Dr Fate]

57. The "strategists" who lost the last 3 elections told them to ignore it.

Just like they told Dick Durbin to apologize, and told John Kerry not call Bush a "liar" for everytime he was called "flip-flopper," Etc, etc, etc.

[cry baby]

58. who are these "strategists"?

[Dr Fate]

59. The Donna Brazille, Al From, Mary Beth Cahill types...

...whoever they all are, the "stay with safe issues, dont attack Bush's credibility" strategy I've seen has not gotten results.

[IndyOp]

61. We did not lose the last election -

Kerry won. Diebold & ES&S & Triad helped the * administration flunkies steal it.

The "strategists" suck for sure - and - they did not cause us to lose the last election - we won.

:kick:

[Dr Fate]

71. Which DEMs with media access have your back on that charge?

Or did the "strategists" who lost the last 3 elections tell them that telling the truth would "make us look like Micheal Moore nut-jobs?"

[IndyOp]

72. Um, none...

Okay, I was not thinking of 'strategists' as people who are counseling that Dems not talk about the theft of the last 2 elections. Your take on 'strategist' is more accurate than mine, though I don't think the strategists know about 2004 - they should, but they don't.

I am still resistant to using the phrase "lost the election" because that implies that the Dem message failed to attract more votes than the Rethugs - and that isn't true. Everytime we 'lose' the Dems offer a more and more conservative message - which is the wrong way to go. We need to make the message more and more Dem - not centrist and not Rethug.

Also - I won't say "lost the election" because I insist on being a member of the reality based community - we got more votes than they did in the last two Presdential elections. Therefore, any discussion that starts with the premise "Given that Dems lost, _____" is a discussion that is off-course from the start.

[NoSheep]

45. no. i don't. nothing seems to be able to penetrate the dead minds

of the public. nothing seems to be able to penetrate their insistence on
total submission to their rule.

[cry baby]

46. nothing like some child sodomy to wake people up (I hope).

The other pics were bad enough, and they caused quite a stir and condemnations (except by el rushbo who thought it was like a frat prank, fecking idiot!).

[brettdale]

47. Faux's Olielly

Reckons WE already know what has happened and they dont need to be released.

Perhaps another mass email to the MSM will get the public awareness up.

Im sure the public would be marching to the white house if they knew some children were being raped and tortured, but as usual the MSM doesnt care.

[cry baby]

48. They will be interested if the photos come out...

Normal people just cannot turn away from this. No more turning away!

[Fly by night]

68. With this regime, it's dangerous to "turn away", unless you CYA.

[Dr Fate]

50. Who is stopping Dean, Kerry, Hillary, Obama from talking about it on TV?

Why are still waiting on the Republican owned media to talk about what we should be talking about?

If the MSM does not care, then what is the excuse for our DEMs with media access?

[cry baby]

53. Someone else here (in a different thread) suggested that the dems

don't want to speak up because then they will be the target of the right's anger when something really bad happens due to the backlash we will most certainly receive. You know, the liberal media, liberal wackos, America-hating liberals supporting the release of pics that will hurt our men and women in combat. I think that is probably a pretty good theory.

[Dr Fate]

56. Is that why DEMs with media access refused to focus on the DSM as well?

Or the Swiftboat vets? Or Election "irregularities?" Or Jeff Gannon? Or the Schivo hoax? Or the forged Nigerian documents?

"The media will be mean to us" is no longer a good excuse for not coming down on the right side of things.

[deadparrot]

55. No.

Because they're professional criminals with control of every branch of government.

[IndyOp]

62. NPR Report: Rumsfeld has said that the

coalition is now working to prepare the Iraqi troops to run the prisons - so the US can turn the 1,000's of detainees over to the Iraqi's.

This suggests to me that the administration is bracing - in case the photos do come out.

I am praying for a leak. Part of me is praying that the pics won't appear until September. It would be (another) nightmare if they surfaced and were met with little public reaction.

On edit: Sorry, no link. I checked the NPR website, but don't see this morning's report.

:kick:

[jbnow]

64. The bush gang would blame

the few bad apple that have been/will be punished because we are so darn fair and good. They'd say it was horrible, sad, done by the only bad soldiers we had, but old news.

But what they could NOT get away with then is blocking the senate bills regarding how we treat all prisoners/detainees. The gonzales memos made it clear that they wanted "flexibility" and freedom from any treaty or US law that might lead to prosecution for abuses.

I don't think it is what is in these pictures they are so afraid of but the reaction that would impose restrictions and open investigations into the whole of their policies regarding it. These pictures would indict a few. A broader look would indict the policy and it's makers and those in charge of them being carried out.

[IndyOp]

65. Agreed. The * crime family will try to blame

"a few bad apples" and we have to work to make sure that the systemic issues are brought to the forefront.

[cry baby]

69. I believe that these pics would indict the whole bush cabal.

Scotty McClellan said just the other day that the prez does not want restrictions on what we can do to detainees. If these pics come out, it will look like * wants to be able to do these things to human beings.

They may try to spin it in the best light possible for the admin, but the seriousness of the content of the photos will overwhelm and marginalize their spin and show them for the monsters that they are. Too optimistic??? I'm desperate for something to happen so we can say bye-bye to the criminals.

[liberalismresurgent]

66. Didnt a judge ORDER the photos released?

I don't understand how Pentago lawyers were allowed to miss their deadline to release the pictures. They gave the judge a brief note explaining why they shouldn't release them. Isn't a judge order an order, no excuses needed?

[givemebackmycountry]

67. I was a unbearable prick at work last night...why?

Because I spent 12 hours in my office listening to Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy. By the time I got through with Monday and Tuesdays shows, I was ready to punch the first person that even MENTIONED Bush.

Driving home I came up on a red light.
Asshole driving a freaking rusted out Ford Tempo had a "W" sticker and a old Bush/Cheney election sticker.

I wanted to either push them through the intersection or drag them out of their vehicle and beat them with a tire iron.

I need to go back to listening to music at work and lay off the AAR.

Like Mike says...

"I hate these murdering bastards"

I really do.


edited for spelling and typing while listening to Diane Feinstein tearing them up on CSPAN.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

70. I am very confused about this photo/video turnover

Yesterday, there was a posting here with a New York Times correction, indicating that the judge had only ordered the photos redacted by the recent due date, not turned over and that the government had complied with the court's order. The New York Times statement also said that the government was opposing the publication of the photos by the ACLU. Does this mean that the photos/videos have been turned over to the judge but not to the ACLU? How else would the judge be able to verify that the photos have been redacted? Whether or not the photos have been turned over to the ACLU, they had to be reacted by a certain date. Only by having the judge examine this would it have been possible to determine if the government complied.

Has anyone seen or heard any interviews of an ACLU spokesperson on this issue either on TV or radio?