The 'eighty virgins in heaven' thing

[Kalish]

if you are a suicide bomber. Is that in the Koran anywhere? It sounds like a marketing ploy used by old dudes to get young dudes to blow themselves up. And does it apply to female suicide bombers?

[manic expression]

1. I think it was something the Hashashin believed

I'm not sure if it is in the Koran anywhere.

[pitohui]

2. doubt they really believe it

atta and the rest wouldn't have been hanging out with strippers during their last weeks of life if it was about going to paradise

it's about being a hero and having a name in this life for your family

it's about power for your tribe or nation

not about 72 virgins they know perfectly well never existed

[Kalish]

4. is it 72, not 80?

[ConfuZed]

3. In "reality" its hell because you have to spend an not... 10 years

not 50 years but an eternity with 70+ people.

[RobertSeattle]

5. As Bill Maher says, it's obvious young Arab men need to get laid more

But this reminds me of an old "911" joke:

After his death, Osama bin Laden went to heaven's gates. There he was greeted by George Washington, who proceeded to slap him across the face and yell at him, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached and punched Osama in the nose and shouted, "You wanted to end our liberties but you failed."

James Madison entered, kicked Osama in the groin and said, "This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson came in and proceeded to beat Osama many times with a long cane and said, "It was evil men like you that provided me the inspiration to pen the Declaration of Independence!".

Woodrow Wilson came in and clubbed Osama over and over with a club shouting "This is why we needed to band together in a League of Nations, to stop international evil in its tracks!"

These beatings and thrashings continued as John Rudolph, James Monroe and 65 other early Americans came in and unleashed their anger on the terrorist leader.

As Osama lay bleeding and writhing in unbearable pain an Angel appeared. Bin Laden wept in pain and said to the Angel, "This is not what you promised me."

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in heaven. What did you think I said?"

[Kalish]

6. that's good

virginians...

[unrepuke]

7. They got a raise? I thought it was 72. No wonder recruiting is up for them

I once saw a Catholic school chromo in an antique store titled "The 10 Virgins".

But shown were only 5 females. Inflation. It's everywhere.

Judge Greg Mathis would throw their case out for lying on that exageration alone.

:evilgrin:

[Kalish]

9. It's their version of 'be all you can be'

give me 72 or 80 virgins and I'll be all I can be too (just kidding)...

[unrepuke]

44. "It's not just a job - It's a lifetime commitment."

for a suicide bomber, certainly.

[LisaL]

60. It's 72. I don't think the original poster is informed on how

many virgins one get.

[lvx35]

8. Its in the koran

"Verily, for the Muttaqun , there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34).

[Kalish]

11. interesting

but where does the 72 come from?

[lvx35]

20. My guess is hadith

the oral traditions regarding the saying of the prophet not covered in the Koran.

[Beaver Tail]

10. Actually

snip

the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality "white raisins" of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.... The famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for houri, which means "virgin," but Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at last one respected dictionary of early Arabic hur means "white raisin."

http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/arts4.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Raisins? Are you sure? That's not much of a heavenly treasure

[NoPasaran]

19. Some Paradise, eh?

You'd think they'd at least have FRESH fruit.

[manic expression]

23. This is how you defend yourself against FRESH FRUIT!

"But we've done fresh fruit!"

[Beaver Tail]

21. In the time of Mohammad

The Raisin was a special sweet and rare treat. A "Heavenly Treat" if you prefer.

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. Well in that context I guess it makes sense

[Kalish]

17. I guess that would be homer 'doh!' moment

thinking you're getting 72 female virgins, and getting a handful of raisins instead...

but thanks for the info. that's very interesting...

[uppityperson]

26. You people are making me laugh

thank you

[nookiemonster]

59. Whoa! Hold me back!!

[formernaderite]

37. I don't think this is common knowledge...

better not tell the suicide bombers.

[etherealtruth]

49. Thank you for the info/link ...

This has been my understanding but I did not know where or how I had formed that opinion (I think in school, but that means "nothing")

[soothsayer]

13. 72, by Islamic tradition (the Koran doesn't give a number)

snip
"What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."

One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE ) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah , chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah to Sana'a '."

much more here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

[Kalish]

27. 'dark eyed damsels'

Seriously though, I've always thought Persian women were beautiful.

[Turbineguy]

14. There's a serious flaw of logic in this "virgins thing"

When you go to heaven (after blowing yourself into tiny bits or some other activity), you get 72 virgins.

That would mean that those virgins would already be on hand.

Let's look at this from the virgin's point of view.

Is having sexual intercourse with Yassir Arafat your idea of heaven?

[LizW]

25. Well, it would only be once every 72nd time.

No, seriously, fundamentalism is inherently mysogynist. They probably think women would find it heavenly to spend eternity servicing an exalted martyr.

[charlie]

29. No, thankfully

earthly women are spared that horror. But they'll be tickled that their husbands spend their days rutting with a platoon of houris:

There is another hadith that believing women in Paradise will have a higher status than even the houris. The believing women will say, “We shall have eternal life and will never die; we are the gentle ones who will never despair; we have settled down and shall never depart; we are contented and shall never be dissatisfied; blessed are we and blessed are our spouses…” (At-Tabarani, summarized in A Thematic Commentary on the Qur’an by Shaykh Muhammad Al-Ghazali).

From that we can judge that the believing women will not be dissatisfied if their husbands also have houris. Why should we judge the life in Paradise by the standards of our lives here?

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7515

[charlie]

15. According to this

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7515

it's not Koranic, but there is a hadith that says it's true (and it's 72 houris, heavenly creations, not earthly women).

An explanation of hadith:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

[tocqueville]

16. not only virgins but eternal erection too

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE ) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah , chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah to Sana'a '."

Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one will marry seventy houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

[Kalish]

18. fascinating

that's all I can say...

[tocqueville]

24. that was Spock used to say...

[barbaraann]

28. Mormons get more women.

In the Celestial Heaven, each man gets to populate an entire planet!

"3. Mormonism teaches that Jesus is only one of many saviors who are each responsible for the salvation of the population of other planets like Earth. Mormon men are working with the promise that they, too, will eventually become gods and be given a planet of their own to populate. This will be accomplished by their intercourse with many wives who will bear millions of spirit children to inhabit the bodies of the people on their planet."

http://www.whatismormonism.com/

[charlie]

32. It's weird

that Hugh Hefner is definitely going to hell, but the guys who manage to stay chaste and repressed will get to act like werewolves in a harem once they die.

[madmom]

30. and they say Tom Cruise is crazy?...n/t

[stanwyck]

31. my understanding is

that the rewards are not immediate on the suicide bomber's demise. The promised fleshly delights and other rewards are not realized until the very last day. The VERY LAST DAY. Ever.
Perhaps one of our Muslim scholars can help us out.

[xilet]

33. Its the same

It is the same as the spanish in the 1500's. Gold, Glory, God. Their families are normally given a tidy sum of money, the bombers are praised as heros, and they feel its their little bit to help the holy war.

[JNelson6563]

34. Virgins were valuable booty in the bible too

Seems everybody wants 'em! Hot commodity! :toast:

Julie

[Kalish]

35. what's so hot about a virgin?

honestly, I don't see anything extra special about one.

[Enraged_Ape]

36. No kidding. Who would kill themselves for a virgin?

Let alone 70 of them. :shrug:

Wouldn't you want someone more...experienced?

I know that my afterlife has 70 $1000-a-night call girls waiting in it. But I won't get to them by killing other people.

[julialnyc]

38. That's like Robin Williams joke

I saw him doing stand up saying "70 virgins.......ask anyone who's been with one virgin (and then he did the so-so motion with his hand)

[Kalish]

41. for sure 70+ virgins would be too much too much to handle

how many first times can one person stand?

[julialnyc]

48. right????

If it was supposed to be a good deal maybe they should say one virgin, one tantric goddess, one sexual professor, one porn star, ect....

[Kalish]

45. do female bombers

get 72 male virgins?

[julialnyc]

50. They don't seem to promote anything for women

but my God.......... 70 male virgins!

[Kalish]

51. it's difficult to even fathom

it...

[julialnyc]

54. It would be a scary scene

70 horny men waiting to pop their cherry.

That sounds like hell to me!

[Kalish]

55. but would the female suicide bomber necessarily be a virgin

in the after-life - I kind of thought the bomber went 'as is' in that department...

hmmm...

[Bluebear]

39. The good news: 72 virgins waiting for you. The bad news:

They're going to stay virgins and ignore you just like they did on earth.

[Kraklen]

40. Do you really think that's why they do it?

[Kalish]

42. it may be an incentive

[Kraklen]

46. Uh huh.

[julialnyc]

43. They do it because it makes them feel like God

It's all about addiction to power through fear.

[Kraklen]

47. They do it because the U.S. blew up their kids.

Or some equivalent reason that they feel they have no other reason to live anymore.

[julialnyc]

52. Sometimes, but the Osama, Atta, ect... type

Were privileged men who were not having their families blown up like the ones in Iraq. That is why this President bombed his dad's grudge and not the people who did 9/11 (other than his hard on to bomb Iraq, he would never go after the rich affluent oil families who started this all).

Osama thinks of himself as a holy figure to be worshiped by his hand in "playing God"

[Kraklen]

53. Right, but Osama's not a suicide bomber.

Yes, he thinks he's holy and ordained by God. Much like George Bush.

[julialnyc]

56. I agree with you

but Atta, ect... on 9/11 came from privilege..

I was just listening to Randi Rhodes talk about how the London bombers were not who you would think they were either (not victims of terrorism or poor and disaffected).Randi said that the British are doing the right thing and want to seriously understand the psychology rather than bomb some innocent, killing people and helping them gain support of their cause.

[Kraklen]

57. I know nothing about Atta's background.

Whatever it was, he was intrinsically different than bin Laden and Bush. Nobody martyrs themselves unless they firmly believe they've been wronged.

Even if he came from privilege, he's an exception to the rule. Most suicide bombers are Iraqis targetting American invaders.

[julialnyc]

58. In Iraq

the suicide bombers are Iraqis (probably many of whom we killed their families). With 9/11, Madrid and London they were middle class to well off (especially the 9/11 terrorists). I think it is a great thing that the English want to understand what drives these people rather than bomb innocent people (this time around anyway).


You could ask the same thing of many religious fanatics (the Branch Davidians or the Kool Aide drinkers). There is something else that leads people to kill and to kill themselves in the name of religion. I'm certainly not smart enough to figure it out other than people having a "God complex"

[Sparkman]

61. Revenge is a strong motive. Crimes of passion are punished less severely

because of that. We allow more liency to crimes of passion, the "perpetrator" presenting less threat to society in general.
The idea that a long standing plan to invade (KILL) a country's leader and innocent kids by cluster bombs, depl. uranium rounds that show utter contempt for the targeted culture, etc., etc. may just be the key to understanding youths and adults alike that go berserk as suicide bombers.