running D for gov of texas, promises ban on violent games. sounds like R?

[evirus]

http://www.gamepolitics.com/

(Bell, D-Houston, Announces for Texas Guv Race; Promises Ban on Violent Games)

I can't stand this from democrats lately banning violent video games? come on depending on how you look at it Mario games can be violent against animals (I mean come on jumping on them to get rid of them?) I mean, this sounds like something a republican would do in my opinion.
Tell me I'm not the only one who feels this way?

[GOPisEvil]

1. Actually, he didn't advocate a ban.

He mentioned not being able to sell it to minors. At least that's how I interpreted his remarks. I was there to hear them.

Yeah, it's pretty lame, but overall he's a good candidate.

[evirus]

2. how many?

wouldn't that just be a "wishful thinking" solution I mean how many minors actually buy their own video games, I read something a while ago that said parents don't pay much attention to the game ratings, if you want a link ill probably dig it up for you...

I mean when I think about minors and video games I always have a mental image of the minor bringing up a box to their parent in the store and saying "mommy/daddy can I get this game?"

[GOPisEvil]

4. I don't know.

If you don't want to support him, fine, but he's the only democrat in the race so far, and he's a damn sight better than pRick Perry or One Tuff Gramma. I think you should look at the entirety of his message rather than being so narrow in your focus.

[evirus]

7. michigan

well I'm in Michigan so my effect on his race is probably zip... I'm just hoping that a trend doesn't develop because I've always seen democratic party as a party for civilian rights but being anti video games would be a rather sizable dent in that idea for me

[GOPisEvil]

8. Hmm...well, like I said, I think it's a dopey thing to campaign on.

But, he's still a good man and a good candidate overall. I don't mind proper labeling to let parents make an informed decision, but not an outright ban.

[evirus]

9. proper labeling? already there

thats already there... let me show you the proper labeling showen in the box of grand theft auto san andreas, which i bought about a few months before the whole "public outcry"

front box ( bottem left corner):
MATURE 17+
underneith is a large black M
underneith that is: CONTENT RATED BY ESRB

then on the back of the box,lower right corner:
MATURE 17+
underneith that are two boxes one with the big M and another with the content that justifies the ratings... heres what is listed:
BLOOD AND GORE
INTENSE VIOLENCE
STRONG LANGUAGE
STRONG SEXUAL CONTENT
USE OF DRUGS

little note, when i see movie on one of my movie channels(before it starts it gives a similar ratings thing) it will give the "strong sexual content" for any movie showing a sex scene

[jobycom]

12. According to ESRB, it wasn't the proper rating

The rating would have been A, for adults only, if the ESRB had known the full contents of the game. So it wasn't the proper rating.

Rock Star was given a choice, even: they could have the rating changed to A, or they could take out the hidden content and keep the rating as it was. Even if by some weird slip of the mind they didn't realize that the A content could be accessed, once they realized it could, they had no choice but to either change the rating or the content. All anyone was doing was trying to bring the game into line with its own box.

[evirus]

17. it is inline

the game is in line with its own box, the orignal mini-game consists of clothed characters preforming what would seem like sexual gestures the nudity itself was the resualt of adding things onto the game so the strong sexual content still holds true to what is in the game

[jobycom]

21. That's what Rockstar tried to claim, but that's not what was discovered

http://news.com.com/Sex+content+leads+to+adult+rating+for+Theft/2100-1043_3-5797090.html?tag=nl

"Late last week, GameSpot editors unlocked the code from a PlayStation 2 copy of "San Andreas" bought in October 2004 using an Action Replay Max device and a series of cheat codes. Because console games are written on unalterable DVDs and cheat codes cannot introduce new content, the fact the minigame was playable at all means it was included in the original PS2 "San Andreas," albeit hidden."

And

http://news.com.com/Take-Two+cuts+outlook+after+Grand+Theft+sex+row/2100-1043_3-5797822.html

"What was clear to us is the fact that fully rendered content existed on the disk that was not disclosed," said Patricia Vance, president of Entertainment Software Rating Board. "The publisher took the risk that a hacker could find it and it clearly put the rating at risk."

[bearfan454]

10. Is Rylander running ?

I thought Kay Bailey was too.

[jobycom]

13. Kay Bailey decided not to, Carole Keaton McClellan Rylander Strayhorn

or whatever her full string of names is, has announced she's running.

So if Bush fires Scottie, he can work for his mom.

[Gruenemann]

45. I heard awhile back

She was going to add "Washington" and "De la Garza" to her name to appeal to minority voters.

[jobycom]

3. What other Dems are trying to ban violent games?

Aside from the misrepresentations about Hillary, I haven't heard of anyone trying to ban any games. Even Hillary wasn't trying to ban anything or change any laws, she just went after one game manufacturer who was cheating on existing laws.

[evirus]

5. laws?

What laws exactly... the ESRB is optional for one and GTASA's makers thought for sure that the "mini-games" wouldn't be accessible (in a way they weren't, they couldn't be accessed by accident, even if the player wanted to there where a good number of hoops to contend with)

[jobycom]

11. Well

Even if it's voluntary, Rock Star put the label on their game, and there are laws agaisnt false advertising. As for them believing the games wouldn't be accessible, come on. They make video games and they don't know about mods? Not believable. They were just trying to cheat. They wanted the M rating so they could be sold in more stores, but they wanted an "A" game to drum up that buzz for the game. They got caught. Hillary never tried to change a law or ban any games, she just sent a message that if people were going to use the ratings system they had to be honest about it.

As for Bell, he's not trying to ban games, he's just making an issue of a bill before the Texas legislature. The bill made it a misdemeanor to sell violent or sexually graphic video games to minors without parental approval. Bell is saying that Perry showed no interest in the bill, but that he would support it. No one was banning anything.

His exact quote: "If you're a parent and see nothing wrong with your kids playing these games, great. But that decision should be made by you, not by a video store clerk."

It's not an issue I care about much, frankly, but some parents do, and the precedent of giving a parent the right to control what their child sees is long established with movies. It's not a sink or swim issue with me, either way.

Now if he were banning video games, we'd be having a different discussion.

[MrBenchley]

15. I agree....

"They wanted the M rating so they could be sold in more stores, but they wanted an "A" game to drum up that buzz for the game. They got caught."
Good summation of the issue.

[evirus]

19. that drunk driver was evil

"They make video games and they don't know about mods? Not believable. They were just trying to cheat."


does every mistake and action have to be the result of evil intentions to you?

They locked out the mini-game to the point where without altering the games code (which is what all mods do to games) there is no way to even see the mini-game. if they wanted to win "popularity points" all they had to do is make the game accessible by a simple cheat code (in this game the codes consist of a combination of buttons) most of the cheat codes where discovered with in a matter of months, and a lot before Rockstar released the codes, due to a person who soldered the controller to his printer port (this was before the pc release) and set up his computer to randomly "key in" different combinations. The way in which the mini-game was disabled, to me, shows a willingness to lower the rating of the game with possible the lack of time to take the proper steps like removing the code entirely. Like I said in my other post the mini-games consists of clothed characters, the nudity was added in to the game by the modders them self's.

if your validation of wanting the game to contain adult material while maintaining the lower ratings by requiring players to use unconventional means then you should consider all games with a chat function or import content function to be attempting to slip by with false advertising because you can easily start up the game and type out graphic descriptions of your sex life in a chat function, or say, import a graphic picture of a nude person to use as your characters logo

[jobycom]

22. You're still assuming the content wasn't on the game

But it was.

Even if the mod was unexpected, so what? It still exposed part of the game that was there, so the rating was still wrong. Even if the game designers at Rockstar are too dumb to understand their own code, the game still contains content that would make it AO, and as we've seen, that content can be accessed.

Ask Ford how that works. They didn't design the Pinto to explode on impact, but they still had to pay the penalty when it did.

[MrBenchley]

30. Say what?

"does every mistake and action have to be the result of evil intentions to you?"
You mean you think they lied about that by ACCIDENT?

[grauch]

6. not just republicans

...sounds like something a republican would do...


Excerpts from Violent Video Games Under Attack (Wired Magazine July 2004)

"Pediatricians and psychologists have been warning us that violent video games are harmful to children," said Mary Lou Dickerson, a Democratic legislator in Washington state who wrote a law now being challenged in federal court -- banning the sale of some violent games to kids. "I'm optimistic that the courts will heed their warnings."

"Some want the violence in some games declared obscene. "You can carve out some exceptions to the First Amendment when it is determined that these things we are talking about -- like pornography, like alcohol, like tobacco, and so on -- have harmful effects to children," Leland Yee, a Democrat in the California Assembly."

Nationally, proposed legislation by Rep. Joe Baca (D-California) would penalize retailers who rent or sell games with violent, sexual or other "harmful" content to minors. A version was killed in 2002 but a revised draft is making its way through the Judiciary Committee, with 43 co-sponsors.

[mongo]

44. Dickerson's statement is BS

The supreme court has held that you cannot limit adults access to entertainment simply because they are not suitable for children.

[MrBenchley]

14. Doesn't sound all that draconian to me...sounds more like common sense

"In any of the popular Grand Theft Auto video game series, the player can beat up old ladies, steal cars, murder police officers, run over pedestrians, pick up prostitutes, and then stomp them to death.
But that's not even the worst one. On the 41st anniversary of the assassination of President. John F. Kennedy, a European software company released JFK: Re-loaded, a video game in which the player plots and carries out the assassination of President Kennedy.
Any kid with a credit card can have these vicarious experiences by downloading the video game off the Internet, buying it from an online retailer or renting it at the neighborhood video store - most of the time with no questions asked."

http://www.navasotaexaminer.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/opinions/editorial01.txt

Hard to see anything in that to complain about.

[jobycom]

16. And to add one thing: Bell isn't trying to ban the game.

In his words, same link: "If you're a parent and see nothing wrong with your kids playing these games, great. But that decision should be made by you, not by a video store clerk."

[MrBenchley]

29. Exactly so....

Although I'm happy to say I can't imagine who DOESN'T have a problem with this mindless racist shit...

[blogslut]

18. Bell is a good guy

From the Game Politics article:

"As reported in the Austin Chronicle, former U.S. Rep. Chris Bell (D-Houston) has announced that he plans to run for governor of Texas in 2006. Bell, who was instrumental in bringing the initial ethics complaint against House Majority Leader Tom DeLay hopes to unseat Republican incumbent Rick Perry."

I too agree the video game issue is nothing to build a platform on. He should build his platform around being an enemy of GOP graft and greed.

[evirus]

20. headline threw me off

ok no he is not actualy going to ban videogames, GP needs to work on its headlines.. but in all fairness age requirements do discurage shops from selling items (GTASA was pulled from shelfs after the rating change from some stores)

[jobycom]

24. That's a fair argument

Ratings do have an impact on sales, which means programmers have to censor their own content to maximize profits. That does curtail freedom of expression.

On the other hand, the game makers are allowed to express themselves how they want, they just might lose some profit by doing so. The Constitution protects the right of expression, but not the requirement for people to listen to everyone's expression. Or pay for it. The market decides the penalty for offending people, and not the government.

Democrats aren't trying to ban games, and they aren't trying to keep the games out of the hands of all minors, they are only trying to make sure the parents control what games their kids are buying. That has financial repurcusions, but that's not the same as banning speech. And frankly, you and I both know it's a feel-good law, anyway. Kids will get the games, anyway. It just prevents gamers from marketing to kids.

I'm not saying I like it. My problems aren't with the warning labels, they are with the Dems choosing this method to go after the moderate family vote. Our emphasis has always been on freedom and equality, and this hints at restrictions on both. But I can live with it a lot more than I can live with anything Bush has done. The slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people based on a series of lies, or a grandstanding attempt to appear parental and introduce some feel-good laws with minor consequences. One evil is much lesser than the other.

Now, as I said, when they start talking about banning games, that's another discussion.

[spuddonna]

23. Dear Campaigning Democrats: Leave the video games alone!

I totally agree... Look, this is not a great 'soft issue' anyway. Go after the 'soft' issue of no local govt sponsored day care, or education of parents on the dangers of online chat rooms, if you want something to put on your platform! This is such a non-issue, even with Grand Theft Auto.

Look, if you are a parent, and you let your kids play video games on a console (XBOX) or a PC, you need to know what it is they are playing. If you see something that is objectionable, turn it off, or uninstall it. The games ALREADY have ratings on them. If you aren't sure whether to buy it, don't!

I am a mom; I'm a geek. Your kids face more danger in online chat rooms than they do from playing video games. Move the xbox and PC into the living room where you can watch them. Much easier to boot them off the computer after they've been playing Sims or Halo all day when you can see them doing it right in front of you.

My two cents...

[jobycom]

25. So, you are against the Dems forcing game makers to tell parents

what's on the games before they buy them?

That's all anyone's talking about.

[blogslut]

26. well, maybe Bell is a little silly

"The New Mainstream" appears to be his campaign slogan.

Dammit. It's really hard to beat a guy with good hair and Ken-doll looks. I wish to hell Sheila Jackson Lee were running for TX governor.

[spuddonna]

27. Look, the incident with GTA is an isolated incident...

I haven't heard of any other games that this has happened to.

First off, the game GTA: San Andreas initially came out with a M-Mature rating for the game, which is advised for 17+ years and up. This means that the game has intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

When the ESRB found out about the mod, they kicked the rating up to AO - Adults Only. This basically means that no kids can get their hands on it becuase it's not going to be distributed via Toys R Us, Walmart, Blockbuster etc. Only 'Adult-Oriented' stores sell AO rated games here in the US.

So, what parent buys a M rated game for little Johnny who is 5? Do people read the boxes before they buy them? Has anyone heard of the hundreds of gaming magazines that have 4 page spreads DETAILING what is in the game? You don't even have to buy the magazine, just browse through them at B&N or your local grocery store! You'll get an idea from the screenshots, ads, and reviews what the game is about.

And here's another thing, I've seen games that I didn't like that had lower ratings. Here's a shocking idea: The parents should buy the game, TRY IT THEMSELVES, and see if they think it's appropriate for their kids.

When parents take their kids to the movies, do they drag their kids in to PG-13 movies without reading reviews? No! Why would you let your kid have a game that you personally haven't looked into?

If you want to know what's on the games before you buy them, it requires the same effort as a movie. Go read a review. Ask a friend. Play it yourself!

:)

[jobycom]

35. Or

Make it easier for the parents, and give a general hint on the game so the parent can decide whether they even need to do the research. We aren't talking about buying an M game for a 5 year old. We're talking about fourteen year olds--kids at an age where some are mature enough to handle it, others clearly are not, and the parent would be the one to know best.

A parent with three kids, age fourteen, twelve and eight, who has to learn three different age groups of parenting skills, help them with homework, shop, plan meals, buy clothes, drive them to soccer, meet the parents of the friends of each kid, etc, could use a short-cut or two.

And as for GTA being an isolated incident--it's not. The ESRP has raised game ratings before for hidden content, according to their own statements, and the number of games seeming to invite mods to skirt rating advisories has been increasing. This wasn't an isolated incident--it was a warning to all game makers that people were starting to notice.

[spuddonna]

43. But that's what I'm saying - what exactly can you put on a box...

That's going to really describe the look, feel, and guts of a game, more that a full review? If you are in a hurry, and all you have to go by is the box, there's screen-shots, and a blurb in the rating box on the back, along with recommended age. Take Halo 2 - it's rated M for mature and says "Blood and Gore, Violence, Language" - and it delivers what it says: lots of chopped up aliens, fights, and swearing Marines.

When you go to a PG-13 movie, what does PG-13 say to you? It means nothing to me. I have to go online, read reviews, etc. Personally, I feel if you are advocating that we do this for games, then we should be doing this to the movie industry as well - I consider them both part of the entertainment industry. I wouldn't go to a movie theater with a 8 year old to see an PG-13 rated movie and demand that the ad on the wall tell me whether or not I can take the kid in...

I understand parents gripes about 'should I buy this, I can't tell from the box', and as a parent of two myself, I want to rip my hair out when I hear the kids yell, "Awesome! Battlefield II is coming out!" because it means one more "to do" for me.

I really don't know what else you can put on a box that's going to tell me 'yeah, ok this won't freak out my kid'...

And I think the console games and PC games are two TOTALLY different animals. Once a game goes on a PC, if that computer has access to the Internet, the kid can get just about anything they want - mods for the game (some are free, some aren't), porn, songs, etc. It comes back to education for both the parent and kid - do you allow your kids to buy stuff off the Internet? Do they have their own Paypal account? How do you monitor the content of what your kids put on the PC, because the PARENT will be responsible - that's been proven with the court cases where kids downloaded pirated music, and the parents were slapped with the lawsuit.

Sorry so long... :) It's late and I'm rambling on!

BTW - I hadn't heard of any other games that had 'gotten the ratings boot' to a higher level... Could you tell me what they are? Thanks! :)

[evirus]

28. already does

the games box already has that information

[MrBenchley]

31. And in that case the games company LIED on the box...

[evirus]

32. tireing

would you consider a mini-game involving sex to be "strong sexual content"?

[MrBenchley]

33. Would you consider a lie a lie?

"a mini-game involving sex"
It's not sex, unless you're wiggling your own joystick while playing...it's half-assed cartoon porn.

[evirus]

34. would i consider a hostile person hostile?

being that you chose to use profainity and seem to be somewhat hostile... id say you lose... we could perfectly remain polite, but you chose not to

[MrBenchley]

40. Boo hoo hoo!

So cartoon porn, racist stereotypes, and mindless shoot 'em ups and violence don't bother you, but "profanity" does....that IS rich...

"id say you lose... "
Here's tip, kiddo. This wasn't one of your crappy little games.

"you chose not to"
Go figure.

[jobycom]

37. Wrong

The box for GTA did not have the appropriate information on their box. That was the whole issue. Whether you think it should have been labelled AO is irrelevant--according to the guidelines, it should have received an AO rating, and Rockstar did not do so.

The laws people like Chris Bell are proposing are to put penalties on violating the labels on the bos. Retailers are not supposed to sell AO games to minors. The reason there aren't already penalties for violating these labels is because the game makers said they would police the industry itself. They haven't done that--in fact, too many of them have been cheating. Thus, stricter laws are now being proposed.

The bad guy in the GTA case was the maker of GTA, not the people who caught them cheating. Just as the bad guy in the Iraq invasion was the president who lied to invade an innocent nation, not the people who are protesting the occupation of that nation. Blame the bad guys.

[evirus]

39. many?

by many i assume you mean more then one or two... id like to hear who you think are cheating? other the Rstar of coruse

[NuttyFluffers]

36. Idiot. Need I say more?

:banghead:

[NoPasaran]

38. You might actually try learning a little bit about him

Before calling him an idiot.
http://www.chrisbell.com

[NuttyFluffers]

46. This action is stupid. And he ain't my district.

Outside of not saying stupid stuff I really don't care what type of person he is. I only have two senators and one congressperson to worry about. All I want from him as a non-constituent is to not say supercilious stuff that is irrelevant to the big issues and to not continue to perpetuate a bad party image. Not too much to ask at all. Sure the media is against him, that's a given -- all the more reason not to pick stupid, petty battles.

[MrBenchley]

41. You sure do...

I for one don't see anything idiotic about this...

[NuttyFluffers]

47. You've been harping on 1 game's sex issue. This is about violence.

So most of what you are talking about is moot to this conversation.

Now if you want to talk about violence in video games then you are going to have to ante up far more than that. You need sociological studies AND criminal statistics -- AND you need them to agree that violence increases correspond to direct relations from changes in the video game world. Already disproven, violence has been going down for years now (corresponding with since the crack epidemic has been going down -- imagine that) and roughly at the moment Street Fighter 2 and Doom, granddaddies of natural looking violence in video games, came out. The evidence of direct correlation isn't there, hasn't been there, and won't be there. Give it up. It only builds up complete antagonism between the gamers (the next generation of potential democrats) and the foolish politicians who the media ends up making the mouthpieces for the party.

This is a losing cause, just like the drug war and temperance. Best to quit when you are behind. Right now the democrats are behind, and many gamers HATE democrats with a passion all because of this issue. Give it up, people want their vices, banning doesn't work -- never has, never will -- and only social management like responsible parents and industry standards can do that.

And don't give me that GTA canard. It's been complained about since it first came out -- and if the only difference in this (so far) lone ESRP mistake is polygonal titties from a cheat code thank your lucky stars they aren't on the 'internets' looking at real porn. And again, sex does not equal violence, so again point is moot. Damn thing is basically rated R (which is sooo different from X in terms of VIOLENCE :sarcasm:) so if parents are STUPID enough to let their kids see it and spazz about blurry, sharp-edged, cubism tits (compared to the real thing that literally vomits forth from the internet and cable TV) then they deserve what they get. In fact they deserve more, a la Clockwork Orange style. Tired of this foolishness.

[evirus]

48. i agree fully

i agree fully with what your saying. does the industry need to set standerds? I dont think so, but thats my opinion...

heres a video from adam carolla's new show where he discusses the relation between video game violence and real violence

............ due to the way they set up their site i cant directly link to the clip http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/too_late_with_adam_carolla/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml

but you can clearly see which one im talking about by the title

[LittleClarkie]

42. Oh, a Hillary Democrat

Thrillsville.