Vt. Environmentalist: "Dean's attempts to run as environmentalist a Fraud"

[janekat]

I fear this will start WW3 but here goes.... This quotes 2 different environmentalists from Vermont....

The Man from Vermont is Not Green (He's Not Even a Liberal)
by MICHAEL COLBY
http://lists.cagreens.org/pipermail/dmr-annc-freq/2003-April/000643.html

....Many in Vermont, particularly environmentalists, see Dean as just another Republican in Democrat's clothing.

..."EP under Governor Dean meant Expedite Permits, not Environmental Protection," proclaims Annette Smith, the director of Vermonters for a Clean Environment.

Smith is no stranger to Dean's environmental record, having tangled with the Dean administration on everything from the OMYA Corporation's mining to pesticide usage on Vermont's mega-farms.

...."Dean's attempts to run for president as an environmentalist is nothing but a fraud," Smith told Wild Matters. "He's destroyed the Agency of Natural Resources, he's refused to meet with environmentalists while constantly meeting with the development community, and he's made the permitting process one, big dysfunctional joke."

.....when Dean took office there were no Wal-Marts in Vermont; there was no Home Depots; Burlington's downtown was dominated by local stores not the national chains that now rule the roost; there were 36% more small farmers in existence; there were no 100,000-hen mega-farms; and sprawl wasn't a word on the tip of everyone's tongue.

....Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of Vermont's Environmental Board, has seen the regulatory process under Dean become so slanted against environmentalists and concerned citizens that she hardly thinks its worth putting up a fight anymore.

"Under Dean the Act 250 process (Vermont's primary development review law) and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way," contends Kaplan. "Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers."

Kaplan points to the "Environmental Board purge" in the mid-90s that allowed Dean to set the pro-development tone. In 1993, the Board issued an Act 250 permit to C&S Grocers in Brattleboro with conditions that restricted the diesel emissions from its heavy truck traffic. After C&S execs cried foul and threatened to move to New Hampshire, Dean broke gubernatorial precedent by publicly criticizing the Environmental Board for issuing what he called a "non-permit."

....."But these special parcels seem to be the only land Dean cares about," says Kaplan. "The rest has been fair game for over development."

As Dean goes national he may be able to fool an Iowan or two with his eco-record, but Vermonters have seen enough to know that being green isn't easy for Dean. And he's far from being a liberal.

Michael Colby is the editor of the national monthly, Wild Matters He can be reached at [e-mail].

[hedda_foil]

1. This has been posted repeatedly for months.

And the conclusions of the guys who wrote it have been repeatedly debunked in depth. It's extraordinarily biased.

No doubt one of the Vermont DUers, like KaraokeKarlton will be along with a link to the debunking threads.

[janekat]

2. So these 2 people are lying? Whats the story - fill us in. n/t

[Pastiche423]

5. An idea!

Why don't you donate to DU, so that you can do a search for the multiple times this issue has been addressed.

[Pepperbelly]

6. snarky and exactly of the character I have grown to ...

expect.

[Pastiche423]

9. Why, thank you!

[Upfront]

19. Heck

and I thought it was a good idea.

[Forkboy]

21. You're hardly one to complain about snarkiness there PB.

[Forkboy]

20. that's a real bullshit response Pastiche

you know I like you but that was just a low blow.

[Pastiche423]

25. How was it low?

I thought promoting DU donations was a good thing. It would certainly help w/the multiple postings of the same issue(s).

[Forkboy]

36. You weren't promoting donations

and not all people can,or want to,donate.

[Pastiche423]

61. You are right

What I really was promoting was, searching the board BEFORE the same issue is posted about time and time and time again.

[Northwind]

13. Not lying, precisely

It would be more accurate to say that those who claim Dean was bad on the environment in vermont represented the far fringe of the environmental movement, and were incensed at Dean's compromise position, in which he took into account all factors, including environmental impact, job creation, etc.

In short the people who hated him were just a loud shout from the ELF and ALF types, but without the violence.

[KittyWampus]

86. Dean Supporter Bitching About "Far Fringes" FUNNY!!!!

"those who claim Dean was bad on the environment in vermont
represented the far fringe of the environmental movemen"

Sort of like how the far-left Dean supporters trash Clark?

By the way, my goal is to move our country Far Left but I am intelligent enough to use moderate tactics.

[janekat]

3. from another environmentalist....

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/001560.php

Dean .....often sided with business when the choice was jobs versus the environment.

......"If the question was enticing new business in the state, giving them what they wanted or needed in terms of permits, locations, you could pretty much predict Howard would come down on the side of what business wanted, even if meant sprawling development," said Patrick Parenteau, a law professor at Vermont Law School and a former state environmental commissioner.

[Dr Fate]

11. But how does Dean's record compare to Bush, or your candidates???

Lets discuss the full spectrum of this- How can I tell if Dean's record is terrible if i have no context?

Can you take this narrow enviromental issue and find some links pertaining to Bush or your candidate- so that we can compare them to Dean?

Otherwise we are just bashing Dean. Even though I support kerry, I'm against one-sided bashing of good DEMS like Dean...

[janekat]

14. Kuchinich has a great site comparing the candidates on all the issues

I posted it a day or so ago. I'll try to dig it up...

[JohnKleeb]

18. my candiate has a good environmental record

[janekat]

22. Kuchinich vs. Dean on Kyoto

Presidential Hopefuls Push Energy Alternatives, Pan Kyoto
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0610-01.htm
"Former Vermont governor Howard Dean has sided most closely with the Bush administration, endorsing the National Governors Association policy, which opposed the Kyoto Protocol unless it included mandatory emissions cuts for developing countries. The policy recommended that the United States "not sign or ratify any agreement that would result in serious harm to the U.S. economy."

"Of the Democrats now running, only Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich has stated, "the U.S. must ratify the Kyoto Protocol."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0610-01.htm

[JohnKleeb]

24. but hes unelectable

;) so I am told for the millioneth time.

[janekat]

29. So is Dean - that's why I'm not supporting him....

He's stuck his foot in his mouth way too many times. You ask any "pro" in this business of Dean's chances and they will tell you "very slim" against Bush.

Currently, both Clark and Kerry (maybe Gephardt) run better against Bush.

[Cha]

39. Dean Is Electable and as far as I'm concerned.. kerry and gep

stuck their big Feet in their mouths giving bush Yes on the IWR.

And they still think it's a good idea?

[gully]

59. Kerry and Gep voted for the war,

and Clark said he 'probably' would have. I'd rather have a guy who sticks his foot in his mouth any day...

[JohnKleeb]

68. Cant you detect sarcaism?

[gully]

58. Do you know what Dennis thinks about Clark?

If not, I'd be glad to supply you with some information.

[Pastiche423]

60. Spill it, please!

[JohnKleeb]

69. me???? I bet it aint positive guys

My beef with Clark is the same as yours Pastiche. KOSOVO. Dennis opposed that war.

[JohnKleeb]

70. it aint positive is all I know

Dennis opposed Kosovo the same war Clark commanded.

[janekat]

33. Dean replacing critics on environmental advisory panel ...

Dean replacing critics on environmental advisory panel
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996
MONTPELIER - A leading environmentalist was asked to leave Gov. Howard Dean's council of environmental advisers after she criticized the governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power plant in Vermont.

.....after Courtney wrote a newspaper opinion piece faulting Dean for his brief advocacy of a coal plant, she learned she was no longer welcome on the council. David Rocchio, the governor's legal counsel, wrote her late last month to say she will be replaced on the council by VNRC's board chairman. The move came after she had written the governor on energy issues and showed his staff her draft newspaper piece, Courtney said.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996

[madfloridian]

82. Will Pitt says we should not say that.

We should present our case each time it comes up.
:crazy: :silly:

Uh, which case was that again?

[sandnsea]

4. One of these days...

I'm going to dig into this. But I have to say for the moment, I understand the rule about expressing an opinion when posting an article. It should apply to ANY article. That would hopefully mean the poster took a little bit of time to research the claims in the article in order to form an opinion and further the debate.

And I am probably going to get flamed, yet again. I am NOT condemning every post this poster has ever made, rather making a point about threads in general as it pertains to the 'new rules'. Which I thought were stupid until I realized how many posts I usually just back out of.

[Dr Fate]

7. I'd put Dean's record up against Bush's anyday...

...Do I even need to elaborate on Bush's disasterous enviromental policies??? Unless it is to compare them to Dean's record?...

But even against greens- at least Dean HAS a record. Greens only promise what they "would do" "if" they could somehow get more than 3% of the vote...

BTW- I support Kerry, but I think Dean is a great DEM and candidate with a solid record...

[Cha]

10. Thanks Dr. Fate ! You do your candidate

Proud!

[w4rma]

8. Dean and Vermont’s 133,000 acre Champion lands preservation

…
One of these times occurs toward the end of April, in the brown-tweed-and-blond-wood conference room of an affluent Westside law firm that is hosting Dean at a sandwich lunch for the benefit of the California League of Conservation Voters. About 50 people are sitting around a horseshoe formation of long tables, and Dean stands in the central opening, shirtsleeves rolled up and arms crossed, a halogen spotlight making his forehead shiny, while he holds forth, answering questions cogently and effortlessly for close to an hour. He discusses emissions standards and ethanol and wind farms, and he offers up something that’s absolute catnip to anyone with an interest in how politics are actually done — the forthright, ligament-by-ligament anatomy of a deal, this one involving the recent preservation of Vermont’s Champion lands, an area of 133,000 acres; a “huge” piece, he says proudly, the largest land deal east of the Mississippi.

He and his team used the NRA, he says, to neutralize the most ardent property-rights Republicans in the legislature. They then went to the snowmobilers and explained that although there would be a wilderness area off-limits to them, there would be other areas they could utilize. They used that concession, he goes on, to get the snowmobilers’ help in supporting the exclusion of ATVs: “You can’t compromise with ATVers under any circumstances, they just do too much damage to the land . . .” In other words, Dean says, you assemble the broadest coalition possible and then parcel out something for everybody. “Now, it can’t be everybody, because there’s always those on the extreme edge of the right who want to clear-cut everything, that’s their idea of sustainable timbering . . .” But in general, he says, you work with all the stakeholders, and then if one element of the coalition starts to defect, if the snowmobilers, say, try to link up with the ATVers, which they sometimes threaten to do, “you put the leverage on. You say, ‘If it’s a choice between letting the ATVs in or keeping the snowmobile people out — sorry, we’ll see you later.’ And that brings the snowmobilers back to the table . . .”

Then, somewhere in the middle of this entirely pragmatic discussion, Dean pauses, and he puts his finger on a kind of abstract longing involving a belief that there exist two strands in American politics, the one preoccupied with self-interest and the other a genuine concern for fellow citizens, and a desire for these strands to combine. He says slowly and thoughtfully, “The biggest damage we’ve suffered in the last two years hasn’t been economic, and it hasn’t even been our loss of respect in the eyes of the world. The biggest loss we’ve sustained in this country has been our loss of community . . . It’s not enough for me just to have good schools for my kid, or good health care for my kid. It’s really important for us to provide these things for everybody. That’s been the premise of America. That’s what we have to get back again.”
…
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/41/features-wolf.php

[Dr Fate]

12. Yes- I'd like to see info on janekat 's candidate, or Bush...

so that we can compare it to Deans. Lets get to the bottom of how Dean stands on the environmant, as compared to Bush or other good DEMS...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. Psst...

May have voted for Reagan.

[janekat]

26. Yep - 22 years ago

I've worked on about 7 campaigns for Dems: Gore, Clinton, Daley, several Chicago Dem campaigns. So I think I've been pardoned for that.

I support anyone but Bush... (Clark, Kerry, Kuchinich, Gephardt, Dean is #5). I will support Dean if he wins the General Election but he is at the bottom of my list.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. Understood.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. Why does this massive set-aside of land always get forgotten

in the "Dean is not an environmentalist friendly candidate" threads.

Because it's speaks too loudly. Vermont is only 9600 square miles. Proportionately, this set-aside is massive.

[sandnsea]

44. It's good but...

what's equally important is that the rest of the land is logged, mined or used in an environmentally friendly way. We have national parks and the rest, but it doesn't mean we should condone strip mining or clear cutting or otherwise destroying everything else because we've got some national park set asides.

I'm not remotely anywhere near saying Dean did this in Vermont. Not remotely. I already posted that I don't know. I'm just trying to point out to you that saving some land IF you allowed the rest to be destroyed isn't anything to brag about, it's actually what Republicans do. BIG emphasis on IF. The overall environmental policy is more important.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. You admit you don't know yet

you're willing to profer the "IF."


It says everything about your motives. How about constructing an INFORMED post?

[sandnsea]

54. Grrrrrrr.

You asked why 130,000 acres isn't important and I tried to add info for you to consider in regards to that point. It just seems to me that if you had to ask the question in the first place you didn't understand this is the kind of Republican propaganda that's been going on for decades. While rivers catch on fire, groundwater is detroyed and 95% of our forests have been mowed down.

Howard Dean wasn't even the goddamn subject!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. Huh? The setting aside of lands by Gov. Dean WAS the issue.

The only info you added was "IF."

A blind man could see the posts.






Clue: Look at who I was responding to.

[sandnsea]

66. Too sad

I can't even post to someone I know and just try to interject some additional info on LAND SET ASIDES IN GENERAL without it breaking down into 'they're bashing my Deanie again'. Come on Rummy, you're a better person than this.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

76. I was responding to w4rma.

Your "interjection" of an "IF" wasn't required.

Your posts are all noted and recorded. They're all eerily similar. They contain no perspicacity or self-questioning. What "if" Dean clear-cut Vermont. What "if" strip-mining occurred? What "if" the rest of the land was destroyed? And then "I'm not remotely anywhere near saying Dean did this in Vermont..." but I AM going to say and allude to it anyway. What exactly is the point?




sandnsea (1000+ posts
It's good but...

what's equally important is that the rest of the land is logged, mined or used in an environmentally friendly way. We have national parks and the rest, but it doesn't mean we should condone strip mining or clear cutting or otherwise destroying everything else because we've got some national park set asides.

I'm not remotely anywhere near saying Dean did this in Vermont. Not remotely. I already posted that I don't know. I'm just trying to point out to you that saving some land IF you allowed the rest to be destroyed isn't anything to brag about, it's actually what Republicans do. BIG emphasis on IF. The overall environmental policy is more important.

[gully]

16. Hey what's Depleted Uranium do to the environment again ?

Here's some facts on Deans record...

"Dean's Vermont "has one of the most progressive environmental programmes in America" according to the London Times. As former Vermont radio and television talk show host Jeff Kaufman points out, "During his decade in office, Governor Dean helped protect more land from development than all previous governors combined; ... he administered a 'best practices' agriculture plan that preserves land and water quality; he helped form the nation's first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000); and he championed a commuter rail system to lower traffic congestion and pollution while diminishing urban sprawl (in its last report on sprawl, the Sierra Club ranked Vermont as the second best state in America for land use planning)." Vermont also followed California's lead in establishing regulations on greenhouse gas emissions that go beyond standards set in the Kyoto Protocol. According to the New York Times, Dean "is calling for the auto industry to build cars that get 40 miles per gallon by 2015 and for 20 percent of the nation's electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020. ... s president he would close the loophole that exempts sport utility vehicles from gas-mileage standards, ... make the Environmental Protection Agency cabinet level and work to re-establish the Clinton administration rules limiting roads in national forests." Even when Dean was judged less favorably on environmental issues, the executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council Elizabeth Courtney recognizes that pressing economic circumstances impacted his decisions ("in the early 90s the rest of the country seemed to be pulling out of the recession and Vermont seemed to be languishing in it") and acknowledges Dean's general qualities as governor: "fresh candor and intelligence. You always know where Howard Dean stands. He is candid and honest in his communications with Vermonters, and he is appreciated for that. He's also very bright, and he has a clear sense of his direction." The San Francisco Chronicle reported that " Pope said that although the Sierra Club had some disagreements with Dean's land-use policies, Dean did 'fabulous things in Vermont.'"

edited to add link...

http://deandefense.org/archives/000596.html

[blm]

23. But that conflicts with Dean's past goal to DEREGULATE electricity.

As he boasted to the CATO Institute and as referred to in this article. Sorry, but deregulating electricity was a boon to his energy donors and is a HORRIBLY Republican/Libertarian goal.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

Dean raises money from energy sources

February 27, 2002
By David Gram
ASSOCIATED PRESS

MONTPELIER — When Gov. Howard Dean wanted to raise money for a possible presidential bid, he followed the example of a former governor of Texas and called on his friends in the energy industry.
>>>>>>>

“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”

Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
A list of the Governor’s Council of Economic Advisers includes Green Mountain Power Corp.’s chairman, two company board members and a vice president, all of whom made donations to the Fund For A Healthy America. It also includes two longtime utility lobbyists.

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:
— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
>>>>>>>  

Here's the article about his talk with the CATO Institute:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.

Dean charmed nearly everyone in the boardroom. He came across as erudite, policy savvy, and, believe it or not, a friend of free markets--at least by the standards of the Tom Daschle-Dick Gephardt axis of the Democratic party. Even when challenged on issues like environmentalism, where he favored a large centralized mass of intrusive regulations, Dean remained affable.

"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.
>>>>>>
Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.
>>>>>>
 

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. More feeble every day.

I'm saddened.


Do you know who the editors of the Weekly Standard are?


William Kristol and Fred Barnes.

:hurts:




Edit- Any credibility you may have had....is GONE!

[blm]

31. The other article from Vermont CONFIRMS it.

And YOU KNOW IT!

You're embarrassed that Dean was for deregulation aren't you? That's why you're trying to act like this is bogus and meaningless. If Moore was lying in his piece about Dean's appearance with them and his phone conversations, then why didn't Dean ask for a retraction?

Did he ask for a retraction from the Vermont paper?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

40. I don't necessarily have a beef with the other article.

I may not support Dean on this issue. The fact is that you were willing to wade through the Republican Cesspool that IS the Weekly Standard(Edited by PNAC'er) to corroborate it. It's not the message. It's the messenger. You don't care whether Dean has a good environmental record. You only care that he MUST be smeared, no matter the source.

Even if it's edited by this man:



This picture come directly from the site. http://www.weeklystandard.com/aboutus/bio_kristol.asp



Shame!

[blm]

45. I know DAMN well who Kristol is. Do you know who Dean is?

How many progressive Democrats speak to the CATO Institute?

Are you saying that Moore is lying? Then get Dean's camp to say that Moore lied about his appearance there.

Dean's defense team kicks in for EVERYTHING. Where's their defense that says that Moore is lying?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. And you used his magazine as a source.

Shame!





The fear is palpable.

[blm]

55. Vermont paper CONFIRMS Dean is for deregulating electricity.

You refuse to address that point.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. blm uses Weekly Standard as reference!

Who's avoiding the point?

[blm]

73. It was posted here before. The Vt. paper confirms it.

Are you saying that Dean ISN'T for dergeulating electricity and this story in BOTH links is false?

I thought Dean had retractions or corrections on false stories.

[janekat]

65. We are discussing issues here - how is a person discussing an

issue a "smear."

[blm]

41. You know what. RIF? I'm pissed that you said that!

You are saying I have no credibility when Dean did not ask for a retraction from Moore and the Vermont paper CONFIRMS that Dean was pushing electricity deregulation with the legislature.

You DARE to say I am not credible, and turn your back on the story that YOU can rebut if it isn't true, but, instead you attack me personally. That blows.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. It's a mistake to rule out all conservative news sources. This

article presents the thoughts of a Cato Institute Senior Fellow about Howard Dean. Howard Dean accepted Cato's invitation to speak to them and the writer reflects on what he said and discusses his record. He likes Dean's fiscal policies, disagrees with his social liberalism.

If you don't like Dean being associated with Cato, take it up with Dean since he spoke to them voluntarily.

[blm]

53. They won't acknowledge the Vermont paper's confirmation

of the deregulation story, either.

To me, this is one of the great mysteries about the Dean people. They REFUSE to note that their guy is for something that so many of us here would find appalling.


DEREGULATING ELECTRICITY is a BFEE goal.

[gully]

28. Are you refering to this 'small' section of my post

... "he helped form the nation's first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000)"

This fact remains...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. The fact remains that there is a Weekly Standard source being used.

The equivalent of digging in the trash.

[gully]

34. I found that out today when I posted something about Clark...

from the same group ;)

[blm]

37. The Vermont paper said the same. Why pretend he wasn't for it?

If he wasn't for it, why would people say he was?

Why wouldn't he demand a retraction on something so serious?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. Why use a PNAC'er for a source?

Shame!

[blm]

46. The Times Argus in Vermont said it's true.

Are you saying that they lied, too?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. Too?

Because William Kristol's rag was telling the truth, too?


Shame!

[blm]

74. Vt. paper says Dean pushed DEREGULATING ELECTRICITY

while governor. Are you prepared to rebut their claim?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. Are you prepared to defend William Kristol?

[blm]

80. That's BOGUS and you know it.

You're purposely turning Moore's recounting of his Dean event at the CATO Institute into me defending Kristol? How disingenuous can you get?

Why don't you just confirm whether Dean got a retraction from Moore?

Why don't you address the point that Dean was PUSHING electricity deregulation in the legislature, as per the Vermont paper linked above? The Moore article praises Dean for his support of deregulation at the CATO Institute. If Dean didn't say that and didn't push for deregulation, then both sources are wrong, and Dean should demand a retraction. He's not shy about getting corrections, is he?

THIS SCARES YOU. DOESN'T IT? You usually stick to the point, yet you won't do that here. Why don't you just get Dean to do one of his famous flips and I'm sure he'll finesse it and Deanies will swallow his explanation whole, as usual.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. You're quoting a talk show host. . . how is he better qualified to

judge Dean's environmental record than environmental activists in Vermont are?

Do you have links other than the Dean Defense site? I'd like to see the entire articles on sites where they were originally published.

[gully]

56. uhm, look who the talk show host 'quoted'...

okey dokey...

[gully]

32. I note counterpunch was one the sources...

for the Dean story.

Here's what they had to say about the general.

In fact, it might make for an interesting thread?

http://www.counterpunch.org/clark.html

[rucky]

42. Counterpunch should change their name..

...to COINTELPRO

[janekat]

50. No counterpunch used an article that was written by an environmentalist

[clar]

72. Are you talking about Michael Colby?

Because I know Michael Colby. Bright, charismatic and frightening. I along with many of my friends in the environmental community in Vermont don't have much use for him. This is a guy who takes demogogury to new levels. He publicly stated that he thought it would be better for the environment if Geoge Bush, rather than Al Gore, was elected. His reasoning? That the environmental movement would be galvanized in opposition. Look, even NRDC doesn't think much of this guy.

[Capn Sunshine]

38. Speaking of Environmental disasters...

what to you call presiding over a shooting war where Depleted Uranium rounds were used to huge environmental damage?

Oh, I forgot , the mantra from the Clark Bars is " he's a general, just not responsible"

[Cha]

47. Shhh! Not suppose to bring up anything as monumental as that..

[Pastiche423]

57. Love that emoticon!

Hope you don't mind if I "borrow" it.

[quaker bill]

67. Put it in context

Someone that would seem "pro-development" or "anti-environment" in Vermont could seem like an ardent conservationist in much of the rest of the country.

At one point in my career I did mine restoration work as a wetlands ecologist. In Florida, we attempted +/- successfully to restore natural environments and wetlands post-mining as common practice.

Expanding our practice, we began to do some mine restoration work in southern Georgia. We attempted to get approvals for similar riparian habitat restoration there. It turns out that we needed a special variance to restore habitat there. The normal restoration rules there required that the land be flattened and planted with pine trees to "promote the utility of them land".

The point being that Vermont has a sensitivity to environmental issues atypical of most states. Dean's policies applied elsewhere would likely be viewed as anti-growth, anti-development, and anti-property rights.

[haymaker]

71. I give, I now hate Dean worse than Bush.

I have you to thank, janekat. Thanks to your tireless, unbiased work as a nuetral arbiter of the Democratic hopefuls, I have decided to vote for Bush.

PATBMNALT

[Cha]

75. lol! Yeah! like all the mucking around is doing a damn bit

of difference.

[gate of the sun]

77. let's face it

IN some people's book Dean can do no wrong even if he is clearly wrong.......it's dysfunctional and that's all there is to it. I don't know why the ones who won't even address his true centrist stance look at these threads. They can easily just stick their heads in the sand as they continue to do. They don't want to talk about it. I'll tell I do not trust Dean. Of course then they want to make you out like you are some sort of Bush lover if you don't love Dean. I am a kucinich supporter and when I heard about the flag burning amendment I was upset by what he had done ( Kucinich). I still support him over all because some of the issues so important to me he stands by strongly. I am not blind. I will not be blind this stance support of Dean for his "great campaign" often makes me wonder what we have come to? Can we not even discuss the man's credibility? If he is so *ucking credible then let the discussion's happen.

[blm]

78. Welcome to Fundeanmentalism.

creepy, eh?

[JohnKleeb]

81. I was disappointed in DK for that too but I still support him

I agree with you, no offense Dean supporters but I have never been a bandwagon person, and I dont hop in because something is popular and doing well, I like to choose who best represents me and you know who that is, its Dennis Kucinich, you can tell me he doesnt have a chance and what not but I am content with who I support.

[madfloridian]

83. Here is one website I found with good discussions on this.

http://www.rklau.com/dean2004/002208.html

I know the pattern here, so I will look more after the Daily Show. Someone will say this is not proof. I am not from Vermont, so I have to do searches.

SNIP...."Mr. Colby was a member of a group called “Environmentalists Against Gore” that declared, "Some people say we can't vote for Ralph Nader because that would help put a Republican in the White House, but nature and public health will be better protected even if George Bush wins the election, because the national environmental groups that ignore or excuse Al Gore's double talk may stand up and fight if a Republican makes those same bad decisions."

If you agree that “nature and public health” are better protected with George Bush in the White House, then I’ve got a coal-burning power plant in Ohio that I’d like to sell you. If, on the other hand, you want an honest, gutsy, visionary candidate who can connect you to the best traditions of the Democratic Party and actually defeat George W. Bush, then I’d urge you to support Governor Howard Dean...."

I really don't know how to prove anything to please you guys. I really really do not, and I am beginning not to care.

[hedgetrimmer]

84. DEAN! what a terrible candidate, what a terrible time...

for all citizens of the U.S. ... when the opportunity comes for them to get a representive government in the form of presidential power the cowards turn to the only man, the only candidate who can stab them in the back....

i can hear the hissing now... the future speaks...

i do not care that today maybe my last day to post this level of honesty....

today i come out again and again... the dean candidacy holds no water... the supporters of him hold no issues... there is one candidate that represents us, the people... a man who will take on corporate mega-lions, a man who will take on the city fathers, a man who will take on the mafia, a man who will work for the people... the people that give him the job, the people... not corporate interest... not political paybacks... if you have the eyeas to read this and the brains to understand it DEAN is a fraud! he will let the people down... wake up! WAKE UP! there is one candidate that has what it takes... one candidate who will operate as a citizen of this nation...

i dare to dream, i dare to make a difference, i dare to vote for Dennis Kucinich...

[indigo32]

85. You Dare

only to call people cowards and blind, and a good man a fraud. Pretty sad really... and doesn't do your candidate a damn bit of good.

[hedgetrimmer]

87. yes, I dare... and you have nothing to defend dean, as usual...

just consider this...... "a good man a fraud"

where on issues is dean "a good man"?

i do not want to hear the whitewashed he's a great candidate because of his candidacy... i do not want to hear his revolutionizing of campaign....

where on issues is dean "a good man"?

and then put him in a toe to toe with kucinich... if you still go for dean i would check my voter registration card and if i was you make sure it says democrat... then have a sit down with yourself and see what a democrat really is, what it stands for... and just what you call yourself...

dare to be a democrat, vote for kucinich... i do...

[indigo32]

88. issues

Heathcare
Gay Rights
Foreign Policy
Tax Cuts
I could go on...and into alot more detail... but forgive me if I think you couldn't give a shit about anything I say about Dean anyway, so I won't waste my time.

I know perfectly well what a democrat is... I've always been one and always will be...gee I've read the platform and everything WOW. Guess what YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT A DEMOCRAT IS ALL BY YOURSELF... GET OVER YOURSELF.

Also, I have perfectly good reasons for not supporting Kucinich thank you very much.