Miers on abortion: "It's murder."

[flowomo]

(snip) In another instance, candidate Miers agreed to sit down with a group of abortion rights activists. Operation Rescue was staging regular protests at area abortion clinics, and the group of about 10 women who met with Miers wanted to know whether she supported a 1985 city ordinance that protected patients from harassment. Four of the women in attendance said in interviews that Miers was immovable.

"She said, well, I'm sorry, it's murder, and that's that," said Joy Mankoff, founder of a local women's political action network. "There was no room for any discussion."

Although the women left the meeting convinced that Miers was completely opposed to abortion rights, one, liberal lawyer Louise B. Raggio, continued to support Miers and still does. Miers, for her part, has raised money to promote a lecture series on women's issues bearing Raggio's name. The first speaker was feminist Gloria Steinem. (snip)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/07/AR2005100701813_2.html

[shockingelk]

1. One can have personal beliefs different than established law

I'm the first to admit that I can't start to prove an embryo is or isn't "human" although I'm pro-choice for pregnancies before viability.

I recall John Kerry believes life begins at conception although he supports the law of the land.

[JDPriestly]

6. When do seeds become plants?

When they are fertilized, when they take root, or when the stem of the plant pushes above the earth and the plant "breathes"? Why do you suppose we speak of the "breath of life"? And why do doctors time how long it takes for a baby to take its first breath? Because the life of an animal or plant that lives out of the water begins when the organism, whether a tree or a baby, first breathes. The process is only slightly different for aquatic plants and animals.

A baby is alive within its mother's womb as is fruit on a tree. But its life as a human being does not begin until it is born, just as the fruit's or seed's life as a tree does not begin until it has not only rooted but pushed a stem above the earth.

Have you ever thought, when you ate a peach, that you were killing a tree? I bet not. Do you think you are killing a chicken when you eat an egg? Maybe if you are vegan, but otherwise not.

[shockingelk]

9. Peach? Tree? Not an applicable analogy

Different people have different opinions on when "life" "begins".

The legal question is "When does a fetus have rights distinct from the woman."

My answer to that is "When the fetus can survive separately from the woman's metabolism." IOW, viability.

Myself, I don't think a baby is a "human life" until it's self-aware. But I find killing a newborn morally disgusting. Given that I can't prove my opinion beyond "If a fetus can survive separately from the woman's metabolism, it deserves separate legal consideration," I can't condone infanticide.

Others may personally feel they can prove a blastocyst is a "human life". But similar to me, they may not be willing to argue for rights of the fetus until later.

[JDPriestly]

10. Rights of the fetus is a different issue.

But, viability and the beginning of life are related. A fetus is truly viable when it can breathe separately from the woman's metabolism. Within the peach analogy, a viable fetus is like a ripe peach.

If you sincerely ask "when does an independent life begin?," you will find that the peach tree analogy works quite well. A peach is alive, but it does not become a peach tree until it develops a stem that breaks ground and can develop into a tree trunk. Likewise, a fetus is alive, but it does not become a baby, a separate life, until it is born, until it leaves its mother's womb and breathes on its own. Until that time it is a fetus. Of course, that time is possible at viability because, by definition, a baby that is viable is one that can survive by breathing on its own without its mother.

Abortion is a different issue, one that I think should be left to a mother and her doctor.

I agree, killing a newborn is morally disgusting. I happen to know, however, that there are rare situations in which not aborting a baby means death to both the baby and the mother. That is, in my view, even more morally disgusting than killing a newborn, because two lives are lost rather than one.

[shockingelk]

11. Analogies are polemic

I understand what you're saying.

But I am comfortable saying "Before viability, the fetus has no rights separate from the woman, after viability, the fetus is a separate legal entity whose rights must be balanced against the woman's".

And until science can say otherwise, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[ErisFiveFingers]

12. I think the chilling difference...

Is between saying two slightly different things:
"I believe abortion is murder"
and
"Abortion is murder".

The first statement notes personal beliefs, which may conflict with established law. The second statement has no room for allowing personal beliefs that conflict with the law... it is an absolute statement. And only the Sith speak in absolutes. :)

[nonconformist]

17. That's not what she said.

She didn't say "I believe life begins at conception"... she said that abortion is "murder".

I agree that one can believe that life begins at conception (as I do) and support choice (as I do). But Miers believes that abortion is murder. That is pretty strong language and doesn't support the idea that she will agree with the law and with choice.

[adarling]

2. Wow, the cleaning lady has an opinion

Thank GOD for her opinion on this issue, lets make her President!!! What a freak and trash....she is just plain white trash in a nasty blue suit. Why is it that blue is the fateful color in Presidencies? Blue Suit, Blue dress.....some other stuff i am too lazy to think on right now ;)

[hootinholler]

14. I am a product of 'white trash'

And I find that statement incredibly insulting.

-Hoot

[DanCa]

3. Operation Rescue isn't that the group

who used to "glue" clinic doors shut back in the days? Anyone associated with them should be jailled.

[Erika]

4. Theocracy to reign in America?

Our citizens will live as the theocrats rule. Isn't this why we all migrated to be free from theocracy?

If the extremist right wingers try to force women to have children against there will, there will be a revolution.

[youthere]

5. "...She also had a tendency to switch stances on critical issues..."

ah geez...damn flip flopper! LOL

[Gloria]

7. Harrassment of women was OK with Miers--this is inexcusable.

I don't care if you're "pro-life" or "pro-choice," a reasonable person would not condone violence and harrassment of women exercising their right to go to a clinic.

This bitch seems to want to act out some weird thing in her head by retaliating against her own sex....

Shit, we're screwed.

[0007]

13. We're screwed if confirmed for sure.

If women are to have rights, it is their choice. It has nothing to do with personel opinions of how one feels towards making that choice.

[ShockediSay]

8. Sounds like a crapshoot n/t

[Eric J in MN]

15. kick

kick

[MissMarple]

16. Well, then, that sounds like a legal judgement.

And we know what happens to murderers, well some murderers. :eyes: