Blanket apology

[whatever4]

I wrote this a few minutes ago, because someone started a thread about Chrisians and, basically, Christian bashing. Well, I don't know why the thread became locked in the meantime, but I wanted to share this anyway. Thanks.


To all Christians, from a non, I'm sorry if I or anyone tries to make you feel the way we perceive some less than practicing Christians want to make us feel. It's wrong and spiteful, I know, I know. I've ranted a time or two, and if I didn't make it clear I was targeting those who are using the Christian religion, rather than Christians themselves, my bad and I'm sorry. I learned better a few years ago, after bumping heads on a few boards a few times, and have gained respect. I used to put down the religion, but I don't anymore.

It wasn't easy, because while so many, just everybody's Christian, I've encountered so many in my life that didn't follow the love and kindness part for those other than Christian. It took me a while to admit to myself that some truly do try to follow what they say they believe, even if I see so many others that don't. It's hardly your fault that they don't.

I think what has some of us, and I can't really say how many at all, upset at the religion in general is how so many of "you" seemed to stand together with BushCo and his religious leaning, up until very recently. Like with gay marriage; that ban passed in my state, my red and VERY Christian state, last year. That one hurt my feelings, I thought we were better people than that. It was the religion that made it possible, but I know it certainly it wouldn't include anyone on here anyway.

So, for what it's worth from a non, blanket apology :)

Now, lock at will

[Lerkfish]

1. sadly, your apology ends with a perception problem...

you said:

I think what has some of us, and I can't really say how many at all, upset at the religion in general is how so many of "you" seemed to stand together with BushCo and his religious leaning, up until very recently. Like with gay marriage; that ban passed in my state, my red and VERY Christian state, last year. That one hurt my feelings, I thought we were better people than that. It was the religion that made it possible, but I know it certainly it wouldn't include anyone on here anyway.


um. for what its worth, I've been against Bush as president back from when his dad was president. I've always voted democrat, never republican. Most christians *I* know can say the same. Of course, I go to a fairly progessive church, the UCC. We've stood in pro choice rallies and peace rallies.

I think your perception is that we've stood behind Bush until now, but the reality is there have always been evangelicals and always been us progressive christians. Neither group have morphed into one another, at least not en masse. What's different is your OWN perceptions, having the benefit of getting to know more progressive christians.

otherwise, apologies gratefully accepted.

[seabeyond]

4. i disagree with you

i live in a very red baptist religious belt. i have never experienced the fundie. i had children in a christian school for 6 years so i got to watch and learn, wow...... for quite a while. i saw a shift fall of 2003. spring of 2004 i saw such different christianity, and how it had grown. i will give you an example of why i believe that many progressive, new testament christians stood behind bush. it is ut of fear. the old testament is full of fear. this was use masterfully by the religious leaders in the churches.

creationism, about 14% believed. in 2002 it rose to 24%. then over small periods between 2002 and end of 2004 i watched that number creep up to 34%, 45% and settling at 54% last i saw

creationism was never seriously taught in any of the churches as a literal story until about 2003. now..... people are actually wanting to teach our children this in school as an alternative to evolution.

this was a purposeful campaign thru out the religious environment, to bring back the patriarchy and male boss, punishment christianity

i also think we have reached the peak in this. i also think you will see the religions mellow out. and the extreme that became more embraced will become an extreme again

catholics in europe said the other day, first step, ..... not all the bible is to be taken literally. not all stories are true. some are just stories. we used to hear this all the time. we haven't been hearing that last couple years.

[Lerkfish]

7. feel free to disagree.

I still stand by what I said.

[whatever4]

9. and when I read about it

catholics in europe said the other day, first step, ..... not all the bible is to be taken literally.

I fairly well fainted. I have achieved twilight zone.

[whatever4]

8. Yes

"I think your perception..."

Yes, I agree, it was a perception. I believe it was an intentionally created perception too. They "used" religion, the majority religion, for political gain. Even worked to divide the American people over it. What got me was how many people seemed to swing with it, even though I didn't believe wanting to ban gay marriage was a majority opinion, it swayed the vote and passed. People voting on laws that, by their own definition, did not apply to them, would never, could never apply to them personally.

I've never met a single gay person that thought gay marriage ought to be banned. If it weren't an issue of discrimination, you'd have thought there'd be a handful that agreed with that "majority" opinion. But, I have yet to meet one. Democratic as hell, majority ruled...against what virtually all in the group in question believe to be justice. Hardly sounds fair. And they used the bible and religious objections to do it.

I'm eternally sorry for all the ways I and others blamed Christians in general for this, in thought and word and attitude. Making laws for "other" people is obviously NOT a Christian ideal. I'm sorry your faith got caught up in this mess.

[Lerkfish]

14. oh, its not your fault, nor mine...

its an understanding perception.
But I would point out the involved of the UCC church in peace marches, in being open to gay membership and even gay ministers, of the UCC president having a sense of humor and interviewing Spongebob when he was accused of being gay.

However, I agree that liberal churches right now APPEAR to be a minority. There's not much to be done about it, liberal churches try hard to increase membership all the time, and do community outreach things....

Its just that compassion and tolerance don't bring in the pod people as much as gay hatred and theofascism. I would argue that that says more about the internal character flaws of people attracted to hatred and bigotry than the religion as a whole, but ....what ya gonna do?

i do appreciate your post, though.

[seabeyond]

2. well, i certainly understand where you are coming from

and i dont feel a need to defend me, christianity or jesus, by any means. and i dont take it personally. further, being a christian i feel a responsibility within my own, to stand up against the hate that is being created by my religion. if i dont do that, then in christ conscience, i feel i am being the very hypocrite i decry.

no, i dont take it personally. everyone has a right, obligation and responsibility to stand up to what is being the projection of christ conscience.

i would fight school prayer for the regular reasons, but yesterday morning driving my boys to school, i had a conversation in my head. i would fight my fellow christians putting prayer into school because i dont pray they way i am told to pray by the loud christians of today. the prayer that is being forced on christian, to me, is being a hypocrite. if i were to not stand up to my fellow christians, i would be walking away from christ lite.

so even though much of my post is in religious term,......

dont feel bad for what you feel looking at christianity today, and please, dont feel you have to buy into the hypocrisy to not hurt others feelings. if a christian cannot hear your love, your concern, really is all about them and their religious relationship within themselves. not you.

[whatever4]

10. Thanks

But feeling bad is what I do best...ought to be catholic ;)

[seabeyond]

13. bah hahahahah that is a funny. so funny. seems to be what all

religion is feeding now. i particularly feel this is the way for religion to keep hold. jesus never asked us to feel bad about ourselves, he simply asked us to shine lite. the lite is love. and has to start within.

why i oppose fundamentalism teaching. kids in christian school. second son kindergarten learning his first verse. memorization.

we are all sinners, you are a sinner. lol lol. as i say out loud i look at this little thing, all the lite and love, and i see the little sinner (satan) he has been all his life. lol lol and not to honor the satan, i say in such lite, oh baby, what sinner, i see no sinner. no no not you. what are they talking about

there wasn't a chance in hell i was going to convince my little one he was a sinner, ergo not responsible for his hmmmmm, aggressive behavior, wink

we are all sinners.

seems we want to banish to hell the "sinner" of the liberal but...... anytime i talk to the religious about dobson, robertson, bennett, or our dear georgie, their sinnin.... i consistently get the standard answer of excuse, oh but we are all sinners.

they must be held to accountability of sin along with the rest of us. i can embrace non perfection, the fundie though only embrace their own non perfection, as they beat that non perfection up to such an extent, they have to create the sinner self. to confirm the chant of i am a sinner.

[classof56]

3. Your apology is accepted, but not really necessary, IMHO.

I'm not one of those Christians who rage about how "persecuted" we are. I always figured those on that kind of rant didn't have a clue as to what persecution is. Jesus himself assured us that following him would not be an easy road. If anything, I think we've had it too easy and as a result failed to appreciate our blessings enough. You have done a good job discerning between genuine followers of Christ and those just use the name to garner attention and (sadly) profit.

Awhile back, the God Hates Fags group was picketing outside a building in a town where I was. I walked around to the onlookers telling them, "As a fundamentalist Christian, I apologize for these folks." Didn't nearly cover the damage Phelps' followers were doing, but I had to try.

My state also voted a ban on gay marriage last year. The church I was attending donated money to help get the ban passed and I left that church and haven't been back since. I think George Bush is just about the worst thing that's happened to our country and I cringe at the way some Christians buy into his evil misdeeds because he says he's a believer, a "man of faith." I make no judgements about his standing before God, but certainly do about his actions. As Jesus himself said, "Wisdom is proved right by her actions."

So I, as a Christian, apologize on behalf of my fellow Christians who act anything but. The damage they do the gospel of Christ is incaluable.

Tired Old Cynic

[Greyhound]

5. From another non, thank you, thank you, thank you. n/t

[seabeyond]

6. but I had to try.

i liek that you did this. i am really glad you did this. i think it is very important that we stand up and be love, in the face of the hate, in the name of christ.

enjoyed your post.

my feelings too

[whatever4]

12. Thank you :)

Thank you very much and all the same to you, I appreciate your post too :)

[whatever4]

11. Thanks, it might not have been necessary

But, in the thread I originally posted it for (which was locked in the meantime, I have no idea why...I don't even care why, anymore) someone expressed those hurt feelings. More than one person did, I believe.

And just the day before, I know I said some stupid thing. About Christianity, or Christians, I'm not sure. But it might not have sounded very nice to a Christian, and, I'm really not with that. I'm a Unitarian. For me, the Golden Rule rules supreme, and, I broke it.

Thank you for expressing concern about some of the political/religious issues we have flying around. It does my heart good to hear it.

Now, if I can just stop them from burning me at the stake, I'll be doing alright :)