WHIG (the White House Iraq Group) and Plamegate

[StefanX]

A few months ago I posted a thread (now archived) summarizing speculation by Atrios, Billmon, TalkingPointsMemo, Digby, Kos (JustWinBaby) and Gore Vidal that the Plame investigation might uncover WHIG's role in planting fake intelligence to get us into the Bush/Iraq war:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4017050

This thread might be worth reviewing again now -- with the recent news stories indicating that the White House Iraq Group is indeed in Fitzgerald's crosshairs.

Another refresher on WHIG from Digby can be found here:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_10_09_digbysblog_archive.html#112910098940371679

The most tantalizing theory (from Billmon) is that the phony Iraq-Niger uranium documents may have originated ON THIS SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC:

http://billmon.org/archives/001970.html

It's also interesting to note that Steve Schmidt (a top strategist for Cheney) recently left (fled?) the country.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney_spokesman_departs_country_as_CIA_1011.html

[Beetwasher]

1. I Think Many People May Be Surprised With What Fitz Presents

and the breadth and depth of his case.

Considering that Wilson's op ed was about the Niger Forgeries, it would seem only natural that some facet of Fitz's investigation might look into those forgeries a bit (if not a lot). Who knows what they might have discovered and what might be revealed? Only Fitz, his staff and the GJ know, and they've got a lot of leeway to go wherever their questions may lead them.

[Generator]

10. Niger forgeries

That was the old "teutonic plates" thing was it not? So.. I don't know why I never connected the dots..not only did the WHIG know they were forgeries, they had someone forge them for them! Imagine if they find that to be true. (I hope we aren't just dreaming again)

[FreedomAngel82]

17. I think so too

I definitely think the whole country will be shocked by all of this. Whatever happens. Probably even those who have been following since the beginning. I have been following just a few months now and catching up on everything is simply amazing. And I think it will go back to Bush. I don't buy this whole "Bush is dumb" and "Bush is just a puppet" act either.

[hang a left]

2. Great thread

I think I read it the first time. But here's a kick and and a recommendation.

[longship]

3. WHIG is crucial in this case.

It opens the investigation into avenues that lead directly to the WH conspiracy to take a nation to war based on equivocation, fabrication, and outright lies. This would be the highest of crimes a president can commit and borders on criminal activity of such a level that has hitherto undocumented in our government. Whether it is quickly portrayed as such may be irrelevant.

The investigation will probably lead the country to uncharted waters. Regardless of WH response it spells doom for this adminstration. The only question is how much damage will be done by that response and how permanent that damage might be.

The Dems had better get their shit together. Events are going to get tough to handle.

[hootinholler]

4. I agree that it is a High Crime, but...

RayGun escaped his secret war.

Just sayin,
-Hoot

[longship]

5. Hi Hoot!

I think this crime is a bit more serious and more embedded in the upper levels of the administration. The scope of the investigation has visibly broadened over the past few weeks. It is likely that Fitz has been on a broad trail for some time, maybe even from the beginning. Unlike with Iran-amok, we have a clear path that leads directly to veep and pres. Their words and their deeds are out in the open. It may be difficult to defend against charges at the top.

We've all known for some time that this all fits together with the larger conspiracy to deceive the citizens, press, and congress of this country to take us to war against a defenseless country. After 21 months, how could Fitz not see how it all fits together?

[hootinholler]

8. Prosecuting a secret war is every bit as serious as...

Dismantling WMD surveilence assets.

I don't know how Fitz sees it, I think that few do. My money is on his having a good handle on this case.

-Hoot

[longship]

11. Hoot, ya've gotta place Plame in context.

By itself, Rove/Plame isn't as big as Iran-amok. But that's not the whole story and we all know it. Taking a whole nation to war, committing a huge effort and resources on a national scale, all based on lies and deceptions to citizens, congress, and the world is much bigger than supporting a dirty little secret war.

If Fitz has this thing in context, which is becoming increasingly apparent, this is going to destroy this administration.

[hootinholler]

13. I don't think he does, then.

Yeah, I see the big picture, you see the big picture and I'm sure Fitz sees the big picture.

If indeed he was going after the whole enchilada then he would have asked Sibel to testify, among others.

-Hoot

[longship]

14. Sibel and many others.

But the media has been in the background on this, until now. I wonder how many witnesses slipped by without notice.

Part is my wishful thinking, but by all apparent word on the street this is going to be a fairly big deal. Read what Ron Paul has said today. (Recent post.)

With that said, maybe I should clarify. We have people here saying everything from "nothing happens" to "they're all going down for treason". It's safe to say that it will likely be something in between the two. I side with those predicting a fairly big splash, meaning a larger scope and more indictments. That isn't saying that they'll get into the whole enchilada, but this thing does have some context within the deception to get to war. It is possible to put Rove/Plame in that context without bringing everybody involved in to testify.

The idea here is to bring out the context focussing on a major incident within that context. No Sibel needed in that case. Let Congress deal with the bigger picture.

[hootinholler]

15. Yeah we're just really having a semantic thing here...

In order to umberlla all of it he would have to be seeking a RICO case, which isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Your last sentence sums it up, and is why I think they might be able to slip the noose, but, then again Fitz is a very experienced, very good prosecutor.

I hate it when I'm in violent agreement.

-Hoot

[longship]

16. ROFL

This thing is complex enough that none of us are going to hit the nail on the head. Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) said it's going to be bigger than people are saying. I think I'll stick with that. :evilgrin:

A good chat! :thumbsup:

[cascadiance]

26. I think a longer extension might be to give him the Sibel testimony option

Hopefully we can see some resolution to the Sibel Edmonds SCOTUS appeal soon. I'm sure he's wanting to see if it works to his favor too, in which case he can make his investigation and it's results that much more solid if he can get additional testimony and corroboration of what he has already. My guess is that he has a plan B that is in waiting that has a bunch of indictments waiting to happen, but he's waiting to see if he can try for plan A if the states secret privilege is struck down in the coming weeks. It will be interesting to see how much control this cabal has over intimidating the SCOTUS to do their bidding, or how independently and conscientiously they might be operating. I hope that we can get some action before someone like Harriet Mieirs or another replacement for her candidacy can be added, as I have even less confidence of her doing the right thing than Roberts (though I have similar concerns about him as well).

Speaking of Whigs... Didn't they die out as party many years ago? Maybe it's time to put them to death again! :)

[hootinholler]

27. He doesn't need the States Secrets Privledge to be struck down...

That is being imposed by the Atty. General. He is a direct proxy for the AG in this matter, with full authority to act as the AG. Thus, he has full authority to lift the gag order to allow Sibel to testify in this matter. The thing is that to do so, he needs to be reasonably sure that Sibel has information directly related to this case. So until he can get the case into that territory, he's stuck. Once he gets there, all bets are off, and Sibel can testify about everything she knows, broadening the case immensely.

A bit of a chicken/egg thing.

-Hoot

[cascadiance]

28. Perhaps he's concerned about not lifting this order himself...

If he takes that action of lifting the gag order himself, perhaps it will prompt Gonzales or someone else in this administration to find a way to weasel him off of the case, which is the last thing he wants, but perhaps is what Rove and others are waiting for him to try and do. If though the SCOTUS does this job for him, then he can't be blamed for working without this gag order in place, and Gonzales and others won't have the same power to muzzle him then.

[hootinholler]

29. I doubt that...

If they could have intervened by removing him I think they would have by now.

-Hoot

[FreedomAngel82]

20. I think he does

Why else would he be on the case for this long? I've had the sense since I found out about this going on that he was going for someone greater. Maybe not Bush but definitely at least Cheney or one of his staffers. I don't think he would've wasted all this time with Karl Rove since it couldn't have been him because he didn't have that type of security clearance. I also think he's going after someone greater because of how tight he has kept everything. He doesn't do like Rove's lawyer and talk to the press after everything. I haven't heard him talk to the press at all.

[longship]

21. Fitz

He's keeping his hand close to the chest. You're correct. The investigator of leaks is not himself leaking. All the information we have is from putative perps' lawyers.

Fitz isn't going to be letting on where he is going with this to anybody on the outside. He's going to hide his intent from witnesses. He may even try a feint or two on the witnesses to take them down the wrong path. This guy's probably a good poker player.

What does this all tell us? I think it says that this is bigger, maybe much bigger, than has been reported. (Although there are people saying that as well.)

The latest word is that Fitz is going to try extending the investigation by holding the GJ longer due to new information. I don't know if any source other than Fitz himself would be reliable about that.

My opinion is that in the past 21 months Fitz has known about a lot of stuff that is just now coming out in public. What may seem like new information might be old stuff to him and the grand jury. Again, he may be putting on a bit of a play here. Just speculation, but 21 months is a long time. We've all known about the depth this can go for some time. Many of the more recent revelations were suspected by many right here on DU. Surely, with access to the people and all the documents, Fitz has things in better shape than us here on DU. So logic says that he very well might be ready to go as soon as these last witnesses perjure themselves (:evilgrin:).

[FreedomAngel82]

18. What I find interesting

is how now all of a sudden the democrats seem to be taking control and charge. Nancy Peolsi hammering the corruption ordeal and the "shame" thing in the House last week or so. Hopefully they'll all be united and step up to the plate because once the whopass can is open we'll need leaders.

[KharmaTrain]

6. Many Of Us Here Were On This Thing Early

The White House Iraq Group? Wanna look back on my posts over the two years and see how long ago I mentioned them...and that was long after I was aware of this group. WHIG started making noise during the run-up to the war with all those planted Judy Miller stories and the spreading of the lies (termed "justification for the invasion") in the media. There were a lot of smart folks here on DU who were on it then and haven't missed a beat since.

I'm been careful on posting my hopes as I didn't want another letdown and to be certain the facts back up my opinions...but now some of these predictions are tantilizing close to becoming reality. Several of us nailed Chenney at the heart of this mess...and dared to dream the impossible, that he'd be at least an unindicted co-conspirator. Many thought we were crazy. Yep, crazy like foxes.

Kudos to DU!!

[dchill]

23. Kudos to DU! - indeed.

White House Iraq Group seemed to me to be a criminal conspiracy done practically out in the open from the get-go. I've long wondered how they figured to get away with it from the beginning. (Playing politics/spreading lies with people's lives as a standard modus operandum.)

Hubris mortis.

[robertpaulsen]

7. Thanks! I enjoy your research StefanX.

Interesting theory about the Niger docs. So it was Rocco Martino on one set and Michael Ledeen on the other? Who's on your list of suspects?

edited after reading the archived thread

[wallwriter]

9. Hat's off to shrewd WHIG identifiers.....

because it does seem that PLame is just a thread that could unravel a much bigger sweater, but it's so likely that people will delay, obfuscate, evade, lie, etc. while waiting for the public to get bored so that Presidential pardons can come down, cf. Cap Weinberger.

[mandyky]

12. Today Tweety was refering to the "Iraq Group"

LOL I thought of the WHIG posts here!

[symbolman]

19. In my 2DVD set film "Rove's War" at Takebackthemedia.com

I've spent a year researching this.. the REAL crime and the commission of the war causus bellie occurred in Dec of 2001 (after who I believe to be Rove's "plumbers" broke into the Niger Embassy in Rome in 2000, about the time Bush was being sworn in), at that Dec 2001 meeting were Ledeen, ROVE'S Hit Man (who curiously enough was in cahoots with an Italian FORGER who'd left the SISMI for a rogue Intel org) as well as Cheney's people, and Franklin (now up for espionage charges) as well as the head of the Italian SISMA (CIA) -- Ledeen's Pal Feith was Cheney's go between with Chalabai as well..

THIS was THE crime, attach that to Bolton's rogue intel group in the State Dept (he visited Miller in Jail remember) and Libby handing her documents after Bolton's group leaked "Centrifuge tubes/Mushroom cloud smoking guns talk" and THESE meetings straight to the WHIG group, which BTW includes GONZALES, Hughes, etc besides the regulars like Fleischer, BUSH, CHENEY, ROVE, etc..

It all starts in Dec 2001 in Rome, after Rove's plumbers in Dec/Jan 2000.. that's the key.

I've got LOTS of goodies (no tin foil hat stuff here) in TWO DVDs worth of material, the complete Chronology at my site..

I'm gonna call my pal Malloy and start there on the radio circuit and let folks know where the traitors oozed us into the "war" from the start..

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Yes, yes they did

I remmber readying some of teh stuff justifying this crap before hubby deployed and having that wonmderful cognitive disonance over history of the ME... then it made sense, I knew they lied, I connected it after the Wilson Op Ed... and I hate them for it... bunch of smelly traitors.

[glitch]

25. smelly traitors - very good term for them.

they reek.

[AnnInLa]

24. Political blogs speculating on an extension

Several blogs I read recently think that, in going beyond the basic outing-of-Plame investigation, Fitz will need more time. They speculate that he can extend THIS grand jury for 6 months. If he needs more time than that, he can call a NEW grand jury, transfer the case to it, and keep it in session for 18 months. The second scenario would be good for the pukes, because the ending of it would be AFTER the 2006 elections. Info courtesy of www.talkleft.com