Any comparative religion majors/buffs out there?

[mcctatas]

I am trying to write a paper about the historical importance of the ten commandments in ancient tribal society, and how that meaning differs from the modern significance people attatch to them...any suggestions? Thanks much for any info etc!

mcctatas

[CatholicEdHead]

1. Which 10 Commandments?

They vary by domination.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm

[mcctatas]

2. any version, the differences aren't so huge that they will impact my

analysis.

[CatholicEdHead]

3. I beg to differ

when you talk about the modern effects of them. The three main types shown in my link above do have enough differences to effect the denomination they belong to.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. Oh, darling,

instead of trying to find someone to help you do your homework, you'd better get about doing your own research, because this answer is so off, so terribly uninformed, that, right now, you're not capable of writing anything worthwhile.

Get your education, and don't troll message boards for people to do your work for you. That's just plain dumb.

[mcctatas]

9. Holy shit...

I'm just looking for some ideas dear friend, and the answer is not horribly misinformed, the question doesn't require in depth analysis of every confessional groups version of the ten commandments . Just getting a head start on my final paper, but thanks for the friendly advice, glad you took the time out of your day to insult me:)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

10. I'm always amused

by "scholars" who troll message boards.

The insult was gratis. Enjoy.........

[mcctatas]

14. hmmm...

I'm just finishing up my humanities req's, never claimed to be a biblical scholar, but I find your snap judgement and pedantic blathering quite refreshing! Can we call a truce lest you beat me about the ears with your JD??? Seriously, mean is never necessary, but if I were looking for an lawyer, I'd call you before my wing-nut brother:)

[applegrove]

11. It is okay to get clues. Then go into the library and to the shelves and

walk around the whole "ancient history" section and read up on various cultural groups.

Also look up for interesting articles in the journals. Periodicals - some on religion, some on ancient history, have been around for 100 years or more. Go to the indexes of those periodicals and see if anyone has written up on these issues and then you can find the original article yourself in the bound copies of the Journals. Better yet - find a few periodicals that touch on this issue and go directly to the bound indexes and look through year after year - you never know what you will find. Then you read their articles - get further clues on where to look (their bibliographies & notes on their sources will do) and don't copy the thesis. Make your own.

Man I wish I knew what i know now - I'd have such fun at university.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

19. Wow.

What a condscending, bullshit response. An you say he's the one doing the trolling?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. I did my own homework

Truth hurts, I know. I know.

Some people just never recognize good advice when they see it.

Pity.

[applegrove]

24. You never went out late at night - over a beer and discussed caselaw

or papers with your pals?

We have the internet now - consider this the replacement of a smoke filled pub.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

39. This is hardly the same thing

My classmates and I had the same professors, went to the same classes, knew each other well in real life, and didn't go out on the street asking total strangers whose faces we couldn't see, names we'd never know, credentials we could never check, to assist us with our academic pursuits.

In the smoke-filled pub, we exchanged ideas and planned together. We did not ask for some unknown to show us how to do it. That's what our professors were there for - to teach us how to do it. That's why we were in school.

Trolling a message board and asking for help is not at all comparable to a real educational experience. It's someone who wants others to do it for him.

Hardly the same.

[applegrove]

42. We are in different times. The web is available. Lots of people ask

for advice in various ways. This person was asking for a brainstorm - and nothing wrong with that. Of course they will take the answers with a grain of salt. You cannot survive on the boards unless you do that.

Older people give advice to younger people. That is as old as the hills.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

43. Experienced, accomplished people

give the benefit of what they know to those who are smart enough to accept it.

If someone wants to "brainstorm" with people on a message board, more power to them.

I don't know anyone that stupid.

And, as I said, equating that sort of behavior to meeting with your classmates and working together in a study group is not even slightly comparable.

[applegrove]

46. You are very judgemental. Advice is good if it provokes thought

and ideas. Did you not notice the research skills that were passed on here? Some colleges give seminars on this. I think you are saying that the same information should not be disseminated on the boards. And really - why not. It is a free world.

Not everyone in the world has access to friends in the same class or advice from an older sibling. Maybe they wanted to start thinking right away - and the immediacy of the web made it the first place to turn to.

You don't know.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

47. Well, if you're going to use the word

"judgmental," spell it right. Gives more credence to your consequent thoughts.

You're confusing judging with having opinions. That's a common mistake, made by people who don't stop to think about what words mean.

If you're in school and you have no friends to study with, you've got a whole other set of problems. Learning does not take place in isolation, and classmates and study groups are where you learn to develop and defend your ideas. Without that interaction, you miss a large part of your education, and you might as well taking an online correspondence course (which is, of course, nonsense).

So, if someone doesn't have access to the people in his or her class, there's something wrong. That's a whole different ball of wax.

If you're comfortable with having nameless, faceless, utterly unknowable and uncredentialed (for all you know) people direct your research, I would venture as guess that the research will be probably be as worthless as the methods used to obtain it.

That's my opinion. You don't agree? I really don't care.

[applegrove]

48. judgmental - perhaps if you study the law - then judgmental is

part of what you are taught - part of the thinking change that takes place. I don't know. A certain amount of elitism comes with that - yes? Cowboy smarts. Aggression.

As to how people engage with others as they study - well - perhaps the lesser extroverts don't end up in law school and do end up in physics departments or religious studies - sciences & the arts. We have no idea what brought this 'chick' to us with the question. Except that they were pondering an essay. And sussing out ways of attack.

I'm sure you didn't mean than only personalities that reflect the ones you met in law-school deserve an education. I am pretty sure that most law school applicants are vetted specifically to find the 'accepted personality'. Doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow "law school model". Or that as they learn - they cannot try one thing after another to find their way to an education and critical thinking.

[mcctatas]

25. Good on you sir!!!

you should be proud of your superior intelligence and vast accomplishments. Your higher cognitive functioning leaves you with every reason to assume from one innocuous post that I never do my own homework (nor did I make the deans list every semester while coping with 3 children, a job, and a physical disability). Thank you again for your obvious concern for my lack of motivation and intelligence:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Hmm runny when I was in my masters degree

we learned to ahem cooperate with each other. It was this course called the Methodology of History... by the time I graduated we all passed research tips to each other.

My professors did not frown on it, one bit, they saw it as helping each other sharpen ideas the way that an academic review would do it

Maybe it is different in the legal profesion... I don't know

[OldLeftieLawyer]

40. Runny? Perhaps,

but when we were studying for our JDs, and when I was pursuing my doctorate, we worked together toward common goals, if that was the class plan. When it came time to write my dissertation, I did my research on my own, since that was part of the process. It was my degree and my dissertation.

If I needed help, I went to my teachers, not to strangers.

We had great study groups during our first year of law school. We'd not have survived without them. I daresay there's not a first-year law student in the world who would go online to ask someone to go over class and case notes with him in order to better understand them.

Funny how people try to compare apples and aardvarks, and then seem surprised when someone points out that what they're doing is absurd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Well you are doing that

in case you missed it, he is completing his UNDERGRADUATE HUMANITIES requirement

You may also have missed this little development, but even AOL has had this running for years where kids in need of help with HS or even college can go and ask questions.

In some ways the web has moved a lot of what you did in school to the web... there are also specialized research groups on the web, I dare say some of them include the law... but hey... in many ways keep your head in the sand and insult the young lad.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. Ask strangers?

Anyone who regards this kind of convenience as an improvement over face-to-face interactions with people who can be verified, who know what they're talking about, who know the student, gets what they deserve.

Anyone who uses the Web for serious research is just plain nuts. It's good for a starting point, perhaps, but, as I pointed out elsewhere, if a student doesn't have any kind of friends in any classes, that's a sign that something else is not quite right.

Hey, apples and aardvarks make you happy, I'm glad for you. I've got my credentials, I've got my professions, and I've got my licenses. I've got my teaching job, and I've got my practices. I think people who ask absolute, faceless, unknown strangers for serious information are idiots.

You're seriously citing an AOL feature as something intellectually persuasive? Oh, man, that's just pathetic.

I guess we have different standards for academic and intellectual achievement. Mine are very high, I know, but that's how it is. Yours, I can see, are quite different.

But, this was runny. Thanks for the laugh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Yes

times have moved on

Have you ever heard of ... USENET? And that is the old method...

Have you?

In fact lets expand do you know what was the origin of the Net, don't you? I am sure in your schooling you have heard of Darpa and Arpa Net?

Look it up

[Geoff R. Casavant]

32. Amen

Leftie, will you marry me? :-)

Any woman who opens with "Oh Darling," is someone worth knowing if only for the dinner conversation.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

38. Yes

Leftie will marry you, simply because you did not address Leftie as "dude."

:::: sigh ::::

[SpiralHawk]

51. "Thou Shalt Not Question My Commandments...

for they have been Catapulted from on HIGH." - "Rev." Pat Robberson

[applegrove]

5. Well - I am no expert - but when there was no police (just armies or triba

elders) people spent alot of time trying not to get murdered..towing the line, etc so they would not be sacrificed. By insisting that people police themselves.. and that it would be wrong to kill or steal (what we now know as the concept of law) - it cut down on clanish warfare or political attacks and like crimes.

We assume most people are like us - born good... and they were in the past. Of course they were because they almost universally found ways of cooperating over time. But if the norm was random murder and raids - people randomed murdered and raided. Look at the scottish clans. And the switch that came about as calvanism took hold. Or he vikings? Are there anymore passive people than the nordics these days?

For sure there were peaceloving tribes but even in Tibet there were cultural norms in place to keep people able to survive with scarce resources. There was so little in them there hills that if they didn't have a great system of laws (cultural, legal) they could not have survived as they did.

Think about it as a way to institute laws before there was the custom of laws as we know it.

And look to cultures with a long history and how religion & its progression help bloody history end (in some cases) and peaceful coexistance in a cohesive group made for stability & power.

Just jotting down some notes. Vague. But I would start with that. Oh - and the idea about the golden rule - that spread everywhere really fast a few millenia ago. And that was at least as big as 10 commandments - the idea that you do not scapegoat others. I think that came after. And before was "eye for an eye" justice in the middle east.

I guess I am saying that the 10 commandments & other parts of monotheism hit different groups at different times.

That may help you compare & contrast.

Look up the anthropology of policing for sure. Self policing was a very big deal before there were police.

[jayctravis]

6. Don't most mythologies/historical traditions include something

of ancient wisdom that is kept sacred? The magic stone tablets, the libary of Alexandria, Egyptian pyramid texts... Perhaps the movement from ideas like a "golden fleece" or an "ark of the covenant" instead to the concept of enshrining a written language and what it stands for is central to belief systems.

Important ideas were created in something enduring, like a stone tablet, or figures incorporated into the stone of official buildings.

Anyone remember the story as recently as a few years ago when those giant amazing beautiful statues in the desert were destroyed on purpose by someone whose belief system was threatened?

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. research ancient babylonian codes

then follow that with Egyptian law, and the ten commandments

that is as far as I will give you pointers wise

[bananas]

8. There were originally fifteen commandments

http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/world/hwimages.htm

[mcctatas]

12. Thanks all, you gave me some good starting points...

thank God it's not due until December, with the new info from y'all, I will have alot to occupy my time:toast:

[applegrove]

13. Well please - for me - because I never did - start the look in the library

now and do some reading. So the ideas will percolate and you will wake up with some amazing thesis some November morn. And then you'll enjoy the experience to the hilt.

Interesting topic.

[mcctatas]

15. Definately, I just get insecure about my own ideas sometimes...

but I love the library, and I left myself plenty of time to do research, I'll just be glad when this class is done, it's my last general ed requirement (well, besides gym:))

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Look at the Joural of Biblbical Studies

good place to start, not kidding and it is a good solid place

Also there are a couple good ones on archeology

You should also look for articles in the Journal of Ancinet Studies

Yes going from memory

[applegrove]

17. Yes - start in the bound copies of periodicals.

[mcctatas]

18. I couldn't find them on my University library search tools, and they

don't seem to own hard copies, any clue where I can access them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Seeif they have them in microfiche

if not interlibrary loan or see if they can get you xeroxes from other campuses

you will need to do a computer search. If there are two universities in your town, they may have them and you can access them as well

[mcctatas]

22. Thanks a bunch (applegrove too), you have been very helpful!

:)

[applegrove]

26. Perhaps periodicals are online now? Maybe those magazines he/she

mentioned have their own sites and indexes online? Periodical library should be at your university library. If not - go to another libary at a bigger university. That is not cheating either!!

Library of Congress? Is Harvard online if you are registered at another American University? Usually they share student libraries. Freenet?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. The Power of Myth

Joseph Campbell, hell anything by Campbell will be a good start... he is one of my all time faves on this... heck you may want to look at what he wrote about Gilgamesh and the hero's journey, becuase it is relevant, my mind is working overtime, thanks

;-)

[applegrove]

31. Hey - I think I have those tapes. I think it was PBS? I need to take them

out and play them... while I still have a tape player.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I think I will be buying them on DVD, I just love the power of myth

series

[applegrove]

34. I bought it a carried it around for years. Never listened. Perhaps I no

longer have them. Can't remember. I will take your advice and listen.

[bobbieinok]

35. see if your school's library has electronic resources

there are a lot of journals whose articles you can read if your library subscribes and you access from one of your school's computers tied into the database

this is what enables those at non-prestige schools to be somewhat competitive in their scholarship.....some universities have the journals, others have the electronic database access

[Malikshah]

23. One issue: Covenant of Grants vs. Covenant of Obligation

The nature of covenants is key in this regard

A good source-- Civilizations of the Ancient Near East (CANE) ed. by Sasson et al.

[mcctatas]

27. Thanks! n/t

[Wizard777]

30. Why not start at the begining of Monotheism.

It's Mazdian. The Biblios is the Zend Avesta. It's more commonly called Zoroastrianism. It is the missing key to the mysteries of the worlds religions that begin their moral codes. From Alchemy to Zion. The Supreme Diety of creation is Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord.) This also form a trinity. Ahu (good son) Ra (Father) Mazda (Wisdom as Holy Ghost.) The their Ahriman (The Destroyer.) Ahu and Ahriman are twins (the reflection of each other.) That is why all the world thinks he si teh second comming of Ahu/Jesu/Jesus. Ahura Mazda is the only one wise enough to be tell the twins apart. That is why man cannot know true good or evil. Thus begins good and bad of ethics. That we can discern with some certainty. Enter the saving graces. Ahu ascends to his Fathers throne to become Ahuratu (The Judge of his fathers creation.) Ahriman was the first created son. Ahu was His first born son. This is also the source of the rebellion in Heaven. Ahura Mazda created man. Ahriman Demanded that man serve him and the angels. Ahura Mazda said no. You and the angels shall serve man. The fight was on. The final battle that has yet to come was revealed by the Magos(Magus)John of Patamos.

There are two divisions of the Zoroatrian Church. The Parsis (religion & worship) & The Ilm-i-Khshnoom (mysticism and science.)The Alchemy of Zoroaster. The Universal solvent disolved the bonds between us. The parsis userped the authority of the Persian Empire and caused it's down fall. They ceased to venerate the Relix of Zoroaster. We fled to the four corners of the earth with Relix and have hidden for milleniums. The Magi in the Christian Bible was a triumvirate council sent to Bethlehem by the Ilm-i-Khshnoom. This was our last emergence from hidding until now. We are also His truly faithful refered to by the Magus John in his revelation. Our numbers are now 100,000 and we still carry the Relix ever onward.

If there is anything else you need to know. Just let me know. I am always happy to help.

Magus Amathion

[liberal43110]

44. Huh?

:wtf:

[opihimoimoi]

36. You might wanna obtain a small book by Merlin Stone WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN

She explains how the Levites came to lead the Hebrew tribes in taking over much of what we now call the Holy Land by aggression and genocide. The towns and cities were peopled by a Maternal society with women having parity with men...able to own businesses, file for divorce, and choose their men for mating.

The Levites(who still exist today) labeled these societies as Pagan and Heathens...the us and them thing...and proceeded to commit genocide to keep the spoils of war, a unilateral war.

You will be astonished.

[ErisFiveFingers]

37. Well, learning what the many 10's are...

... their possible and likely sources (hint: Book of the Dead, 125) and why they vary in their modern usage and translaions is one starting point.

Kill vs. Murder could be a fun topic to explore in several contexts, as well as the whole "false gods/other gods/worship idols" thing goes....

Oh, and there's always WP to start out finding some sources, and general info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_commandments

HTH!

[mandyky]

41. First of all, don't generalize all "ancient tribal societies"

Iraq is an example of an ancient tribal society as is Afghanistan, etc.

Secondly, do you mean indigenous tribal people like Native Americans?
Indigenous people tend to favor the earth and nature over a "set of commandments". Sure, there are dos and don'ts in any society, but I really don't think they relate to the 10 commandments.

I guess I need to know more before commenting more.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

49. Psssssssst

The student needs to go do his own research. Then, maybe he'll know enough to be able to ask intelligent questions.

Shhhhhh. Don't wake him.

;)

[mandyky]

59. LOL

yeah, just nudging them a bit - must be one of those Judge Moore fans huh?

[oregonindy]

45. you do know that even jesus doesnt know the ten commandments?

mark 10:19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


um...defraud not is not one of the ten commandments.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. "Defraud," used in that sense,

means to bear false witness.

To lie.

[oregonindy]

53. so you can assume things about what he said?

nah...dont buy it

defraud means
To take something from by fraud; swindle: defrauded the immigrants by selling them worthless land deeds.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

54. Go back in time

It means "lie."

In fact, you cannot defraud someone without lying.

Think about it, and get back to me.

I ain't buying any of it, by the way................

[Spider Jerusalem]

52. Well...

one supposes you mean the significance of the Ten Commandments in ancient Judaism; it's not really a relevant question in any other context. The Jews were the only ancient tribe that followed them; the tribes Christianised by Rome in the fourth century and later were also Romanised and gave up their tribal ways of life in favour of a more settled and "civilised" existence. As to their importance, they were basically the major rules of the society. Taboos not to be broken. You see the same thing in OTHER tribal societies, even though the specific taboos differ. The modern significance is more ritualistic; it's just a traditional and accepted part of religious practice, not paid much mind because transgresstions don't carry the same threat of punishment by a priest that they did for a Jew in 500 BC. The Ten Commandments, and the other lesser commandments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, are essentially a rudimentary codification of law, given the weight of divine force to compel obedience.

[applegrove]

55. Self delete...