An open letter to DU Moderators about DU Bigots.

[Perky]

DU Rules state:

Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements.


What is the enforcement mechanism for this?


Why is that it is not ok on DU to use the "N-word" or make derisive and patently offensive anti-semitic statements, or use the "c-word" when speaking of women, but it is fine to blast away at people of Christian Faith.

I don't see anyone on DU telling people here that they are going to Hell. I don't see people expressing fundy beliefs in original posts. WHat I do see is a whole lot of needless, insensitive, arrogant and naive bashing of Christians and very few people, particularly the Moderator doing much to reign it in.

Look this is supposed to be the big tent party, the party of varied views. Simply because you happen not to agree with someone on matters of faith does not give you license to insult and belittle.


THere is a difference..a Grand Canyon's worth of difference, between ardently blasting fundie winguts and blastign people who believe in God and Jesus Christ. Perhaps that distinction is not apparent to some of you.

My faith is public and genuine, but I am respectful and tolerant of others. Christians in DU do not go out of their way to bash athiests or agnostics. Is it so much to aske that those folks reicprocate

Don't give me crap about having a persecution complex or tell me that I need to grow a thicker skin. You would not demand a thicker hide for any other group here.

Yes I could put them on "ignore" but there is a far bigger issue here. It is your tolerance of these views that allows it to fester and grouw and becomse commonplace.

You folks need to grow some civilly and those who are supposedly civil need to call folks on being bigots when you see it. It's a huge double standard.

There are folks on here that not only want to push well meaning, humble and decent Christians not simply to the back of the democratic bus; they seek to put them under the wheels. Don't tell me to get a life, I am not the one with the animis. I don't give up my seat for bigots.

DU moderators ought to enforce their own rules.


( I am happy to have a discussion about this..more than happy. but lets see how long it will take before the bigots start showing up posting their venom)

[tx_dem41]

1. As an Atheist, I agree with what you are saying.

Respect my tenets and I respect yours. I don't see DU Christians hardly ever (99.99999%)disrespect mine.

[cynatnite]

2. It's in the eye of the beholder...

Unfortunately, DU is not the kind of place that makes enforcement of these rules easy to be enforced given the different personalities and perspectives.

The 'C' word has been allowed and the excuse was because drudge kindof, sortof, said it in a round about way so that gave some posters free liberty to use it.

There will always be something inflammatory to someone. It's the nature of DU :shrug:

[Loonman]

3. Free speech for me, but not for thee

Unfortunately a liberal tradition. All views are not tolerated, only the "acceptable" ones. You have a right to be offensive, but not a right to be offended. Or maybe mods are just playing favorites.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. Ahh yes, the poor persecuted Christians meme once again...

What I find interesting is that despite your heated rhetoric, you fail to cite even one example. How convenient. :sarcasm:

[Perky]

8. The TRUE story of Jesus H. Christ [View All]

there ya go. read all the post before responding please

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. How about linking?

Or quoting?

[Perky]

14. there you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5147372&mesg_id=5147372

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

27. I read every last post.

Perhaps you should read this:
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=satire

I hope you've got a far better citation than that. Otherwise, you just need a sense of humor, plain and simple. Grow up.

[400Years]

15. big whoop, there's nothing there attacking you

The whole poor me I'm a persecuted christain meme is a little worn out by now.

Some people get offended if you even say you don't believe in god.
Then they go around and say you are bashing them just for stating your own beliefs.

[Perky]

19. That is not what I am saying

ANd I do not feel the least bit persecuted.

But your comment strike the issue at is core. The CHrisitan feeling persectuted should suck it up while we allow the bigoted posts to continue ad nauseum.

[400Years]

29. Real persecution and imaginary persecution are two different things

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

31. The problem is it's not bigoted.

It's satire. In your words, there's a canyon of difference there.

I'll help you out here, since you seem to completely fail to understand the meaning of the word "bigot". A "bigot" is someone that acts maliciously on preconceived notions and stereotypes. A "satirist" will use irony and sarcasm to poke fun at their given subject. If you can't connect the dots there, the problem is only your own.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. How about yesterday's big to-do as an example?

It's not that we feel persecuted for our faith. It's that we feel like a lot of people are unfairly equating us with the Falwells, Robertsons, and Dobsons. How often do you see DU Christians espousing the same beliefs as those guys?

Seriously, we work hard to fight to keep separation of church and state and for equal rights, but some days that doesn't seem to matter around here. We wear the "wrong" label for our faith and that's all some people want to see. Don't hate us. We're not the enemy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5142196

[Clintmax]

30. ...

:popcorn:

[papau]

5. I brought this up and the moderator said to bring it directly to Skinner

I do not believe discussions of the moderators are to be public.

As to the substance of your post - I agree.

[trotsky]

6. More than occasionally

there are comments how Bush et al "obviously don't believe in god" or even the classic example of how the person who ran over the crosses at Sheehan's Crawford protest "couldn't have been a Christian." That thread never even got deleted.

There are hurtful comments on both sides. This doesn't excuse anything, but it does serve to show it's not just Christians getting picked on.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. Uhm, how is criticizing Bush and the asshole protestor anti-Christian?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your comments, because your last line doesn't quite make sense in that context.

[Lerkfish]

7. you have to let it go...

its a losing battle.
Its much better if you don't enter those threads.
After a couple years here, I find the best you can do is remind people that there are liberal christians.
Its sort of like tossing bricks in the grand canyon, though. There are just going to be people who don't view what they post as antagonistic to people of belief, even if you explain it to them.

so, my advice is to just let it go, if you can.

They aren't going to change, and further, there is a valid point that any topic can be discussed. We are all a spectrum..no one is on exactly the same place all the time, there are going to be disagreements therefore.

A large part of the progressive movement treasures freedom FROM religion, and I think that's great. That SHOULD be one of the rights we all support, as well as the right to practice religion.

You just have to accept that for many, they demand their freedom from religion, but to express that, they have to denigrate believers or their faith, apparently.

:shrug:

what are you gonna do?

stay out of threads like that that rile you up...I'm learning that's better.

[Perky]

12. Again the bigger issues its the level of tolerance

take a look at the entire "The TRUE story of Jesus H. Christ" THread

And I still come back to the issues of DU rules.

[Lerkfish]

32. yeah, I'd already read that thread, and chose not to respond in it.

see? I'm learning.
The antagonism of others is not worth my elevated blood pressure.
skinner and the mods really do a decent job, but religion is a tightrope walk for them.
I've discussed this same thing with skinner via PM, and I am satisfied he is sensitive to the issue, but I also think that ultimately there is not a lot to be done about it.
I believe christians are a favorite target of some, to a degree that is disproportional to other faiths, like Judaism Hinduism or Islam, for example. There is a great deal more bad feelings against christianity here, and if you think about it, that makes sense. Most people have had some experience with christianity in order to accumulate negative baggage based on personal experience, whereas lesser experienced faiths are more experience-neutral.
I've seen the same people (on this board and elsewhere) who fling vitriol at christians suddenly fawn over a buddhist or stoutly defend the Islamic faith, sometimes even in the same thread!

again, what'ya gonna do? People are the way they are.
the best you can do is gently correct them when they are mistaken or try to lump all christians together.

[countmyvote4real]

11. And the unicorn bashing is getting out of hand, too. eom

[pberq]

13. This is a complex issue.

It is very easy for our good friends to come down on Christians when they see the crimes being committed by this administration while paying lip service to Christianity.

The bottom line is that it is a person's actions that count -- and the actions of the Bush administration are about as far removed from Christian ideals as you can get.

[cry baby]

16. I think that you should address your questions for mods and admin

directly to them through the proper channels. If you just want to chastize DUers for broadbrushing Christians, then do that without addressing the mods in this way. This thread will get locked and there won't be a chance to discuss it.

On edit: You are broadbrushing DUers as bigots. Are you breaking the rules, too?

[Perky]

28. Umm no

Would you prefer I ca;; people out by name?

[cry baby]

34. That is against the rules, too. nt

[maximovich]

18. Perky Disrupted a Thread

with this same accusation of DU being bigoted. It appeared to be intentional because the subject matter had nothing to do with faith or religion.

I have also noticed others posts by Perky being quit inflammatory toward others who were not being prejudiced towards religious folks. I hope I am wrong, but it did seem strange when this person tried to egg on another poster.

Are you seeking trouble, Perky? Because you come right off as inflammatory by accusing people here of being "BIGOTED", and accusing the moderators of pandering towards bigotry.

Please gives us all examples of that "BIGOTRY".

[Neil Lisst]

20. We can't win elections without winning some Christian votes

As with any group, it's unwise to alienate them. One doesn't have to believe any religion to treat its respectful members respectfully.

Just as I don't want atheists or agnostics discriminated against, I don't want Christians, Buddhist, or Muslims discriminated against.

Because this is a venue where belief in a religion is not the norm, and because where religion prevails, it is often abusive to these same people, they enjoy the freedom to bash it unrestricted here. I understand that, even if I don't agree with it.

For the Christians who take offense, I would suggest to reexamine all the times you've happily stood in public for a prayer, while atheists were forced to endure your practices.

[qanda]

21. As a DU Christian all I can say is

Amen!

[Just Me]

22. Yeah. It bothers me, too. I'm not "Christian" and it makes me sad.

I know many, many lovely Christians. They don't deserve to be treated with such disdain. They don't deserve to be bashed just because there are a handful of wacky, abusive types exploiting Jesus and God. This mass punishment due to the acts of a few bad actors really bugs the crap out of me. It's NOT liberal. It's NOT progressive. It's just NOT right.

[leveymg]

23. Please give us an example of what upsets you.

There's a lot of bashing of the many silly faces of Xtian fundamentalism here, but I've never seen a bigoted statement about Christianity, itself.

Please show us what you view as anti-Christian bigotry at DU. By the way, if someone wants to challenge Christian doctrine, such as belief in the Resurrection or Original Sin, that's not necessarily bigotry.

[leesa]

24. And yet you constantly start these flame wars...wonder why?

[shaniqua6392]

25. I am also a Christian member of DU

and I have never been insulted for my faith here! I consider myself a progressive Christian and many of my posts reflect that. No one has ever said anything negative to me about anything relating to Christianity. I also have never seen anyone insulted for their faith. I also have never seen or been a part of ridiculing anyone for being an atheist. I always show respect to my fellow DU'ers regardless. I do not think it is fair for you to call people bigoted without any citations to back that up. I do not think your attitude reflects Christian values. This type of accusation does nothing to reflect positively on faith in Christ. I think everyone at DU has been wonderful to me regardless of whether they agree with me or not. Christ-like behavior is to be loving toward all of your fellow DU'ers. United we stand. Divided we fall.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. "Sacred Cows make the best hamburger." - Mark Twain

Christianity is a rich and powerful institution. That power is frequently misused. Are we to give it a pass and ignore it because pointing out many Christians hypocrisy and bigotry might be offensive to some?

Disagreeing with a philosophy isn't "bigotry", any more than attacking Republicans is "bigotry".

[seabeyond]

33. i am a christian. i havent seen christian bashing. and if there

are a few that does, so be it, who care. i have also read posts from supposed adults that say children shouldnt be in public interferring with their adult world. a bit extreme and odd in my book, but again, just a few people, i ignore them.

as a christian i am going to bash what we christians are giving to the world today because i think it is very non christian, and as a christian, i would be a hypocrit if i didnt speak up. i would not be walking in christ conscious if i didnt challenge what we are doing in the name of the lord. i dont feel i need ot protect or defend christ at all cost. i dont think that was jesus's role, nor what is asked of us. i think god is just fine in taking care of image.

my fellow christian, that you are bothered to write this post has my brow furrowed and in consternation more than any christian bashing.

[southlandshari]

35. Locking

Please direct questions and concerns about DU's discussion forums and moderators directly to our administrators. Contact information can be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html

One bit of advice for anyone who feels there are bigoted posts of any kind in our forums - please use the alert button to let moderators know about posts that may violate DU rules. For the record, not one person alerted on the thread that is held up here as an example of "anti-Christian bias" on DU.

As always, feel free to PM me or another moderator about this lock, or contact admins at the link provided above.

Thanks!

southlandshari
DU Moderator