Abortion is a Symptom, not the underlying Malady.

[patrice]

The underlying Malady is Economic In-justice! and Social In-Equality, by race, by gender roles, and by social-economic Class.

A moderate stance could be: Abortions should NOT happen, so let's address its *Causes*, Economic Injustice and Discrimination. Just addressing Abortion is like trying to break (or save) all of the mal-formed pots a machine/Society produces, without fixing the Machine.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. No, it's sexual prudishness & misinformation

Lack of proper sex ed in schools & at home

[mopinko]

14. there is a judgment in your stance that is not supported by

the facts. this is only a percentage of abortions. contraceptive failures or lack of availability, medical issues, changes in circumstance, lack of control of ones own life for many, many reasons, etc, etc lead to many more. you're statement implies that only ignorant women need abortions.

[BlueEyedSon]

22. Or that ignorant men make it a necessity.

Ignorance is not quite the right word. What is the opposite of "comfortable thinking/talking about" or "sophisticated w/r/t"?

I would wager that countries where topless beaches are common have less unwanted pregnancies (but probably just as much sex). Do you doubt that the suppression of sex talk/sex thinking/sex ed by the religious right is a factor in kids "forgetting" to use contraception?

On edit: I acknowlege that there are exceptional cases like rape and incest.... but if an instance of recreational/romantic sex results in an unwanted pregnancy, HELL YEAH THAT'S IGNORANT.

[mopinko]

24. i don't doubt that that is a piece of the puzzle

but it is one piece of a large puzzle. ignorance is not the same as stupidity. but it implies that the situation is easily remedied by education. or even by a healthier attitude about sex. that is a tiny part of it.
to frame it that way denies that full scope of women's lives and the reasons that pregnancies are unsupportable. it is simplification to the point that is becomes untrue.

[loveable liberal]

2. Ohhhhh patrice........

Dont you think that if you start looking at the underlying causes of issues, isnt that just opening a can of worms? Isnt it just easier to kill 'terrorists' than work at what causes terrorism?

:tinfoilhat:

[sinkingfeeling]

3. I disagree. Abortion is the appropriate solution to some pregnancies.

There has always been, is today, and will be tomorrow, a medical necessity for abortion. There are situations where a woman's choice to have an abortion is morally correct.

Yes, I agree there are in-justices and inequality that need to be addressed. I also believe that we should all strive for reducing the number of abortions, but there are millions who have made the proper moral choice to abort.

Edited for grammar

[Bridget Burke]

6. You are speaking about reality....

Some folks want to reduce abortion to an elegant equation, a concept far removed from their reality.

Most women & almost as many men understand that real life is messy.

[Spazito]

4. Actually, it is simply a woman's right to choose what happens

with her own body, full stop. Pursuing inequities in society should be done without tying it to the issue of abortion, imo. If all inequities were corrected, abortions would still occur and still should be legal because a woman has the right to choose.

[SidDithers]

29. Damn you for making sense....

:toast:

Sid

[mopinko]

5. no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!!!!

you are being far, far too simplistic, and it will not help our party to wag our fingers at the women who have had abortions. the "causes" are many. many more than your short list.
justice, social, economic and otherwise, will bear many fruits. abortions went down under bill. they go up in a poor economy.
but justice is an end in and of itself, and it serves nothing to tie it to abortion.
and you do not have any business deciding whether or not abortions "should" be happening. put your wagging finger away. it serves NO PURPOSE BUT TO DIVIDE US! let them drive wedges. put yours away.

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. hear hear Mo!!!

:toast:

[mopinko]

19. one for you

:toast: thanks

[whatever4]

7. and more importantly

if we cared, we'd focus on our third-world infant mortality rate, because surely being 39th in the world indicates a serious problem with all our attitudes about infants and children, and it has nothing to do with abortion.

But abortion foes never discuss our infant mortality rate, as if the two problems are unrelated. To them, they are. One is murder, and the other is somehow a fact of life that doesn't bother them. The many avoidable deaths due to mismanagement of resources and misplaced priorities don't bother them, and while it remains that way, nothing done about restricting/eliminating abortion will do anything except harm. Restricting abortion only hurts women, the one's already having trouble (third world infant mortality) raising children after they are born.

It's so sad, all these people really want to do is add to the misery, while they make it sound like such a sweet, noble goal. The argument forgets the lives being discussed, as if those lives never really mattered, as if it doesn't matter if they die, just how they die. Sadly, even the "how" they die is worse, in their world.

[rkc3]

27. There was a discussion a few weeks ago about getting what you

deserve.

The christian right feel the poor deserve to be poor because they have led lives outside of Christ's teaching. The wealthy deserve to be wealthy because they are good people.

Unless we can get past that line of thinking (if you can call it that), America's infant mortality rate doesn't mean a damn thing. The right will tell you it's God's will that those poor children died - because the parents weren't good people.

Then again the right has always worked to protect the fetus, and if they happen to grow up poor, that's a shame for them.

[bleedingheart]

8. Abortion is one of many solutions to a problem - unwanted pregnancy

If you have an unwanted pregnancy, there are a few options.

1. Have the baby and keep it.
2. Have the baby and give it away.
3. Have an abortion.

If number 3 goes away...the new options will read.

1. Have the baby and keep it.
2. Have the baby and give it away.
3. Have an illegal abortion that may (if you have the money)
a. Kill you
b. result in your imprisonment
c. result in infertility
4. Kill yourself out of desparation at being pregnant and not having the money or options.

5. If you are wealthy, you can afford a trip to a luxury spa in Europe, Canada or Mexico where you can get your abortion, have a restful retreat while drinking a martini and laughing at the poor schmucks at home who don't have your options.

[mopinko]

12. don't even say unwanted

unsupportable is the correct word. it may be unsupportable physically, economically, emotionally, whatever. it is not our business to judge.

[bleedingheart]

18. I prefer unwanted

to say "unsupportable" is to suggest that all women would want to be pregnant if the circumstances are just right, but that is not the case.

[mopinko]

23. to say unwanted

is to leave the impression that this is about a woman's whims and desires. to say unsupportable is to ground it in the reality of life.

[Greyhound]

25. But that opens the door to saying

"If you can support it, you must support it", which I vehemently disagree with. It is her absolute, fundamental, right to decide for herself, and nobody else's opinion matters.

[lapislzi]

28. I think the case can be made for both words

Sometimes both conditions apply to the same pregnancy, sometimes not. I can assure you that I did not *want* to be pregnant and alone living in a foreign country, although the pregnancy might have been "supportable" had I wanted it to continue.

I take your point, however, and it's a good one.

[whatever4]

16. added options

1. Have the baby and keep it and
a. be subjected to the beatings, threats, and any other manner of violence which you sought to escape with an abortion
b. find yourself forever behind in life, less educated, less able to build a life, though now being responsible for providing more, not less
c. lose your life or health unexpectedly due to increased (a statisical reality) violenence from parent, boyfriend, spouse or other
d. Kill yourself out of desparation in knowing life is over
e. give up on life, not looking for a future, just an end to the endless unfair burdens bought about from the responsibilities of parenthood and finaces from deadbeat parents
f. get lucky, have a great life and a great kid and be happy you did, but get rid of/divorce the jerk that didn't want the kid
g. spend the rest of your life caring for the severely disabled child you did not want to risk concieving in the first place (drugs, alcohol, rape, congenital issues)

[bleedingheart]

20. sometimes I think fundies are against abortion because they really love

the concept of shaming women.

There is nothing that gets a good ole religous fundamentalist (of any faith) a boner like pointing out everyone else's shame and problems.

Unwed mothers are the easiest targets of all....because they carry their burden in front of them and if they keep their baby that child is living proof of her "shame"....

To this day I hear other people refer to single women with children like this...

"you know.."mary"...the one down the street who had that kid out of wedlock"...

or

"there goes "sally" with that bastard kid of hers"...

it is 2005 and I still hear the slams against women who choose to carry the pregnancy through to the end....Damned if you do...Damned if you don't

[whatever4]

31. Most days I think you're right, some days I think it's not just them

anymore generally I become apathetic and try not to think at all.

It's not good to spew hopelessness. I know it doesn't help. But we all know this is hopeless, what the fundamentalists want to do to us in our nation. I don't even feel like I belong here anymore, and wish it weren't so difficult to leave physically to maybe find a place peaceful place emotionally.

Am I a monster to wish, sometimes in my darkest moments, that I had never had children? For me, and for them, mostly for them, because things are becoming insane and there's just not a damn thing I can do about it. It all leaves me feeling fatalistic, which I know works in the favor of the neocon crazies, but sometimes I just want to scream. I want to scream at them. I want to scream "OKAY!! You win, you win the whole big prize, you hit the jackpot, have a GREAT f'ing time while you finish up the destruction, you horrid, thoughtless...children. Yuck it up. Enjoy the horror your ideas bring to all of us, and PLEASE don't forget the MANY of us that begged you to stop the religious insanity before it was too late."

Sigh. I think you're right. I think they revel in the misery their ideas mean for "others". Like it's Gods justice on Earth. Okay, done ranting, promise.

[porphyrian]

10. Abortion is a medical procedure, not a problem. - n/t

[Solly Mack]

17. precisely eom

[ernstbass]

21. My thoughts exactly

[Selatius]

11. People get abortions when they don't want them or can't have them

If, by economic injustice, you mean that teenagers living in very poor neighborhoods getting pregnant, then yeah, I'd buy your argument.

In such a case, the most pragmatic solution is education about sex, investments in those poor communities, money for education in general to provide opportunities, and crime fighting.

[readmylips]

13. Abortion is Private, between women and doctor....

There shouldn't be a pro-life nor a pro-choice.

Last night one of those NCI programs involved in scientific criminal data, a statement was made about abortion. The woman said she's pro-life because the fetus' heart is already developed. The guy said, abortion is seen as scientific or a religious belief. Science shows that creation is when the first drop of blood unites male and female sperm, after 4 weeks. But the abortion political drama is a private individual choice, better left to women and their doctors.

(couldn't get all the right words but this is what they exchanged in the program).

[PurityOfEssence]

15. Religion is the bigger culprit

Belief in the supernatural clouds the mind, and the rabid hatred of sex (or any fun) that defines the self-scourging misery-worshiping fundamentalists is to blame straight down the line.

If birth control was made readily available and sex education taught as it should be, there would be hardly any need for abortion. As it is, the ignorance and deliberate punishment of anyone who dares to get laid causes untold disruption in society.

Yes, viewing women as second-class organisms is a major cause, but this is justified by most major religions, either obviously or subtly. Yes, economic injustice is a factor, too, but I stand by my claim.

Puritans try to change the human creature, and it's mostly because of a disgust with life, fun and anything that takes one's focus away from the fantasy afterlife and the big daddy's longed-for pat on the head. Sensible people ACCOMMODATE the realities of the species instead of denying them. That doesn't mean condoning murder, but it DOES mean accepting that most people want to fuck, and they're going to do it no matter what the obstacles are.

Mankind is a mixed bag of good and bad; attempts to perfect man simply don't work. That's why communism failed, that's why the current conservatives will fail, and that's why it's the overriding obsession of religious nut jobs: it's against nature and has to be fought doubly hard. The latter may not fail, and if they don't, it's going to be an ugly world. It's already a messy one.

[Spazito]

26. I don't know about anyone else but I sure find it annoying, at the

very least, when someone opens a thread on a controversial topic and then doesn't return to respond to those who took the time to read it and respond with countering opinions.

[Lexingtonian]

30. I agree...to a degree

There are a lot of abortions that involve straightforward medical necessities. Our bodies are remarkable things but tubal pregancies and terribly fetal misdevelopment and many other tragic things do take place.

And you are somewhat right that almost all the rest have to do with the condition we live in. But that's a very complicated thing to address- a huge variety of social factors from the individual/personal (immaturity) to the macroscopic (poverty, rape, religion).

The huge amount of complication derives from the transitional world we live in. From agrarian or older assumptions about life that don't apply, from parents who can't possibly know what to teach their children about selecting mates, from the pathologies of traditional male power becoming precarious, from people unable to get partners that are any good at all, from cultural and class ideas about reproduction, from the economic instability of life, from plain residual ignorance and immaturity about contraception.

We're not going to solve all these anytime soon. Sociologically, high rates of abortion or unmanageably large numbers of births/huge families are what takes place in the transition out of the lifeways of the agrarian world into those of the industrial world. An awful lot of the U.S. is still in that transition. That's that 16-child family in Arkansas (anybody ever see a sow suckling piglets?) and such out in the rural Red States still, the high first and second generation Latino birthrate, etc.

The transition from the industrial world lifeways to those of the postindustrial world, on the other hand, tend to be marked by high use of contraception and less-than-replacement reproduction. Northern Europe is largely in population contraction, the Russian parts particularly, as is a fair amount of southern Europe now and Japan also. (White American numbers are close to stagnant and decline is predictable.) The large masses of blue collar workers once needed for manufacturing are superfluous now, the need for them in agriculture vanished decades ago.

So you are right that abortion as a public issue and macroscopic phenomenon is a symptom. But the problem runs deeper than your solutions. The people who want abortion banned essentially want the tidy (but oppressive and poor) rural/agrarian or closed urban ethnic ghetto world and social order back. The people who see abortion rights as an indispensible necessity are those who are trying to survive the chaotic and brutal mess and narrowness of Industrial Age life, sure that something better lies beyond it and absolutely rejecting the retrogressives' "solution"- and sure abortion is one form of the ugly price that has to be paid for progress away from the perceived or known horror of that Past (along with stuff like divorce, drugs, corporate miniondom, etc). On the post-industrial end the issue seems merely an individual hard luck or individual bad choice kind of problem, a personal and private matter, not a crucial or macroscopically important distinction between two ways of life.

We're essentially going to do what people have usually done: wait it all out, let one side to the argument die away as obsolete and the other side vanish as a force as the situation or problem itself diminishes.

[patrice]

32. Kewl Thread Everybody! Thanks much.

[Iris]

33. As long as people continue having sex, there will be abortions.

Always have been, always will be.

The question we really need to ask is should women have to die because they are illegal?

[Fescue4u]

34. rich girls get knocked up to.

I do not believe that lack of money is a prime motivator for sex.