"I'm more anti-Dem than pro Bush".

[babylonsister]

This came from a friend who I've been conversing with regarding what's going on in our country. He WAS an unapologetic Bush supporter, so that much has changed.
When I asked him why he is anti-Dem, this was his response:

Cus I believe in conservative values, tradition, God, family and American values as intended by our forefathers. Following the european example is destroying all of these principles and the dems are intent on doing this. and on and on and on and on...........

:wtf: Can anyone explain to me where he got the notion Dems are following a European example?

[Deja Q]

1. Well, if he can find a repuke that won't betray him then I wish him luck.

[Gato Moteado]

2. didn't you know kerry is french?

that's what fox news says

[Flying Dream Blues]

40. right! "surrender monkey!" aaack! :(

[Hissyspit]

3. What traditions? What "American values? Why?

He didn't tell you anything much, except that he is not very deep.

[laura888]

39. Exactly!

What exactly are American values?

[serryjw]

54. Is his "American Values"..My Way or the Hwy?

Or does he support the American value of the Bill Of Rights....Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? I know it is small minded but he can go through life without going to a gay pride parade!
People believe in FREE SPEECH...as long as others say what they agree with

[leesa]

4. GOP talking points. He's being conned but doesn't know it and is too lazy

to find out what Dems really want.

[Wapsie B]

5. Well I haven't listened to talk radio in a long time but..............

that's probably where he got it. I'd just like to ask those people what conservative america has really done for us. Many of * supporters cannot deliver one coherent thought as to why they support him.

[T Wolf]

6. First off, lose the friend.

As far as where they got their crazy ideas, look no further than the media that has parrotted the Bushit propaganda.

A specific example is probably the idea that while the Europeans have disavowed torture, we have embraced it. the idea that the great USofA should take into consideration any laws that are not home-grown just drives the cons up a wall. They believe that the US should not be subject to international law.

[Touchdown]

7. He's listening to the GOP defining Dems instead...

of listening the Democrats themselves. He's got his mind made up, based on one side of the story....and...there's very little wrong with Europe compared to us.

Tell him he should start listening to what Democrats say, instead of what Republicans say Democrats say. Joe Lockhart came up with that.

[liberal N proud]

18. Years of the repukes defining the Dem's.

They have been smearing the Democrats and liberals for years. As they say you repeat a lie enough times there are people who will believe it for the truth.

[babylonsister]

22. Good point, Touchdown! "He needs to listen to

what Dems say instead of what Repugs say Dems say." That shall be my new 'talking point'!

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

8. Perhaps it's because Europe is civilized

And the RW robber barons aren't.

[seejanerun]

9. He's probably talking about the Enlightenment

and using reason as a basis for law rather than God. Europe is far more secular than America.

[papau]

10. Dems are following a European example = put down of the religious

If the Dem part continues to have an image as the atheist/gay party, rather than the human rights/American rights party, it will not regain power, in my opinion.

[gaspee]

16. Good.

Fine. Throwing out principle is not the way to regain power.

And dems aren't anti-religion. They're anti-state sponsored religion. Because not everyone is a christian in this country. And should't have to be.

[papau]

31. I agree we're against State religion-but not sellin our point very well.

:-(

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Again, this is an image crafted by the repukes

in order to gain the looney fundy vote. Their propaganda for them has spread through the conservative bloc that aren't all that religious. If you ask one of the GOP believers about, say, Jimmy Carter, they call him vile and names I would not repeat here. I guess what I'm saying is that for confirmed Repukes, they'll continue to believe what they believe and won't let reason or examples to the contrary to get in the way.

[babylonsister]

26. Ironically, he doesn't attend church at all. But you're

right on; they won't let valid reason or examples get in their way. I'm thinking he grew up in a redneck repuke household and never got over it.

[Dhalgren]

19. Where do you get the idea that the Democratic Party has an

"image as the atheist/gay party"? That is a Republican meme, not a reality. We have African Americans in our party, too. Do we have an image as the black party? How about the women's party? The Latino Party? Workers' Party? If we keep going, we will wind up being the American Citizens' Party (which is what we are)! We need to define who we are and not let others do it for us...

[papau]

33. I agree - but it is the quality of our selling that I am worried about

We need to sell what we really are - But what is being heard by the voter is only the GOP theme on what a Dem is.

[Dhalgren]

35. Agreed. We need to set our own agendas and define ourselves.

Civil rights, human rights, privacy, equality, fairness, honesty, justice, no citizen left behind...these are the broad points that the Democratic Party should "sell". We need to take a page from the SCOTUS nomination hearings; we don't need to say what we will or will not do on each and every issue that may or may not come up in the future, we just need to guarantee that the list of ideals above will be applied to everything that the Democratic Party does. And I mean guarantee it...

[RethugAssKicker]

41. Actually, there are many rethugs here in the South..

who consider the Dem party to be the "black" party. and the party of the poor, "give me handouts" mentality.

[PassingFair]

37. Your persecution complex is showing...

:nopity:

[papau]

48. LOL - :-)

:nopity:

:-)

:toast:

:-)

[serryjw]

55. The problem is NOT what we stand fo but

framing our message. I agree it is not about Gay Rights, but rather Human rights

[nankerphelge]

11. If only they were using European healthcare models...

maybe our life expectancy wouldn't be lower than all of Europe.

[goddess40]

12. It sounds like he's saying he's republican and not a fascist but...

if there is a choice between democrat and fascism he'll opt for fascism.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

13. Have you suggested that your friend read the internet for news

Instead of relying on Pre$$titues for information?

If this doesn't work, you could suggest a brain transplant.;-)

[babylonsister]

24. He might not take too kindly to a transplant! LOL! nt

[libertypirate]

14. Uh ask them if they know what the 3-D's are?

It is the simple mindless republican strategy twords everything especially lying.

Deny
Discredit
Distract

They all use it and once you know what they are doing their BS sticks out like a sore thumb.

Then laugh at them, so they know how stupid they are for falling for it!

[zbdent]

15. tradition, God, family and American values - comical

Tradition: Okay, the conservatives use the line "You're in America - act like it" - they despise the fill-in-the-blank-before-the-hyphen-American tags. Once you are in America, you must act like one. Which is . . . ?

God: Um, remind me which side is telling you how, where, and when you have to worship again? I think that we tend to represent the faction that believes that you are allowed to believe as you choose (including not believing), as opposed to the Government-approved brand . . .

Family: If you have a job which pays enough to support a family, good for you. However, we're not the ones who oppose any kind of ability to help a family that's down on their luck . . .

American values: A little (actually, a lot) more specifity here, please. America values its freedom, right? And its workers, right? Um, which party is restricting personal freedoms again, please let me know . . .

Your friend is scum . . .

[babylonsister]

20. My off-the-cuff response was:

Oh, xxxxx, you have been brainwashed! We need to have a talk! I believe in tradition, values, family, (not sure about God, but that's me), respect, integrity, etc. What makes you think my principles are so far removed from yours?
Look at your party-they are imploding! Tell me about Republican values, because I'm not witnessing any of them. You are aligned with a bunch of crooks intent on doing harm to our country. I don't understand why you don't see that. Dems are not destroying anything; the current admin is doing that all by its lonesome. Man, you need to stop listening to Rush, Hannity, Hume, etc.

[Windy]

21. Its a Fundie belief

Europe is too secular and the downfall of society as we know it. They truly believe that.

Your friend has problems...

[sandnsea]

23. From the 1930's

They've been running that tired line forever. Reagan was the only one who has been able to sell it. Sadly, too many people bought.

FDR 1938:

"In the coming primaries in all parties, there will be many clashes between two schools of thought, generally classified as liberal and conservative. Roughly speaking, the liberal school of thought recognizes that the new conditions throughout the world call for new remedies...

"Be it clearly understood, however, that when I use the word "liberal," I mean the believer in progressive principles of democratic, representative government and not the wild man who, in effect, leans in the direction of Communism, for that is just as dangerous to us as Fascism itself

"The opposing or conservative school of thought, as a general proposition, does not recognize the need for Government itself to step in and take action to meet these new problems. It believes that individual initiative and private philanthropy will solve them -- that we ought to repeal many of the things we have done and go back, for (instance) example, to the old gold standard, or stop all this business of old age pensions and unemployment insurance, or repeal the Securities and Exchange Act, or let monopolies thrive unchecked --return, in effect, to the kind of Government that we had in the nineteen twenties."

http://millercenter.virginia.edu/scripps/diglibrary/prezspeeches/roosevelt/fdr_1938_0624.html

[babylonsister]

25. Thanks for this, sandnsea. I think I'll forward it! nt

[Rowdyboy]

27. Ummm, these forefathers brought the values of the European "Enlightenment"

which have no connection to what passes for "conservative values" today.

If you think there's any hope for him, ask him to read this....

Meanwhile, across the Atlantic, many of the intellectual leaders of the American colonies were drawn to the Enlightenment. The colonies may have been founded by leaders of various dogmatic religious persuasions, but when it became necessary to unite against England, it was apparent that no one of them could prevail over the others, and that the most desirable course was to agree to disagree. Nothing more powerfully impelled the movement toward the separation of church and state than the realization that no one church could dominate this new state.

Many of the most distinguished leaders of the American revolution--Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Paine--were powerfully influenced by English and--to a lesser extent--French Enlightenment thought. The God who underwrites the concept of equality in the Declaration of Independence is the same deist God Rousseau worshipped, not that venerated in the traditional churches which still supported and defended monarchies all over Europe. Jefferson and Franklin both spent time in France--a natural ally because it was a traditional enemy of England--absorbing the influence of the French Enlightenment. The language of natural law, of inherent freedoms, of self-determination which seeped so deeply into the American grain was the language of the Enlightenment, though often coated with a light glaze of traditional religion, what has been called our "civil religion."

This is one reason that Americans should study the Enlightenment. It is in their bones. It has defined part of what they have dreamed of, what they aim to become. Separated geographically from most of the aristocrats against whom they were rebelling, their revolution was to be far less corrosive--and at first less influential--than that in France.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/hum_303/enlightenment.html

[0rganism]

47. That was my first gripe, too -- our "forefathers" were Europeans!

More than that, they were European "intellectual elite" with a secular outlook and enlightenment-era values.

Yup, bunch of godforesaken surrender monkeys, those guys. :crazy:

[Peter Frank]

28. Rep. Radio Hosts Commonly Accuse Liberals...

...of adopting European gov models.

[Armstead]

29. European Welfare State Socialism

It's the new boogeyman that has replacefd Communism.

Your friend has bought into a false choice.

The morons who believe that forget some basic points. America is a different culture than Europe, with a different history and different set of values...."Rugged individualism" is too embedded in the American psyche for "European socialism" to ever take hold here to the same extent.

They also ignore the fact that some aspects of "European Socialism" actually work for the benefit of the majority. God forbid Americans should have universal access to healtthcare, or legal job protections.

[PassingFair]

36. Bingo! Armstead!

It's them thar socialists!
Stupid buggers don't even know what socialism entails.
To them, socialism (even the tiniest "whiff") = communism.

[newportdadde]

30. Got a co-worker like that.

She is just anti-Dem and hates the Clintons. I think her husband pipes Rush 24/7 so that may explain some of it. That and she has some racisim thrown in for good measure.

We were talking about healthcare and she said "The damn democrats are going to get Hillary in with her national healthcare". So we talked awhile and I discovered she is pro-union, anti-corporate welfare etc. I told her those were all Democratic Ideas, she was a Democratic voter she just didn't know it yet.

I also got the usual - Democrats support lazy people I believe in self reliance... etc... lots of Rush points.

[Bill McBlueState]

32. try this

Don't be condescending or angry, and don't rant about the media; that sounds like whining.

A good place to start would be to ask what he means by conservative values, tradition, religious values, family values, or American values. Then, talk about what Democrats are doing to continue those traditions versus what the Republicans in power are doing.

Which is more in line with religious values about helping the poor? Raising the minimum wage, or eliminating the estate tax?

Is starting a war consistent with America's traditional role in world affairs?

What are our traditions regarding freedom of religion and separation of church and state? Is government funding of churches consistent with that tradition?

What traditions do we have about individual freedom? Is it more consistent with that tradition to allow people to marry whom they want? Or is it more traditional to allow the government to restrict your personal choice?

It's all about framing our issues.

[Hippo_Tron]

34. Ummm that's called RW brainwashing... somebody's been listenting to Rush

[xchrom]

38. values, traditon, god, family, american values =

god, guns, and gays.

oh and worries about godless europe translates into the phrase ''welfare queen''.

they'd rather give more of the economy into walmart's hands than give appropriate help to those people who are poor and poor children -- cause god know's -- they'll be black.

[EstimatedProphet]

42. Laugh at him.

Seriously. Laugh in his face and call him names, then walk off laughing.

Nothing gets someone's ire up more than that. And once he's worked up and you're laughing and pointing fingers at him, and he loses his temper, he'll go off and start trying to justify what he believes-and when he actually does some looking around and turns off Limbaugh, he'll start to wake up. But you won't get him there by just arguing. Look at where we are now versus where we were in the early 90's-Repug assholes making us really mad enabled us to unite like we are now and be able to argue our points.

[Midlodemocrat]

43. No kidding.

A friend of mine was telling me how she went to Canada during the Clinton impeachment and was so embarrassed.

I laughed right in her face and told her that the Canadiens were embarrassed for HER, that she supported Ken Starr.

[EstimatedProphet]

44. Honestly, I think this is an approach we need to do more often

We have a tendency to automatically go to arguing points in cases like this. The problem with this is that, by default, it justifies thier position, and says thet they have a debateable viewpoint rather than shizophrenic rambling. We know that the Limbaugh talking points are laughable-why not laugh at them? That's what those points deserve.

[freestyle]

45. We could learn much from a European example.

Democrats should get in step with the majority of voters and seriously advocate national health care, real environmentalism, longer vacations, support for working parents, a strong labor movement, etc.

[Johonny]

46. Tell him to define them

conservative values, tradition, God, family and American values


Those are just MT words. Talking points.

[DistressedAmerican]

49. Ask Him If Torture And International War Crimes Are Part Of His Vision For

America. Ask him if torture is among those American values he so loves.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Oh brother

Looks like this person doesn't know the forefathers at all.

[LittleClarkie]

51. Who does he listen to on the radio? Savage? Rush?

Someone crazier, if that's possible?

I would imagine that would be the place to look first re: where he got his ideas.

[Malikshah]

52. Doesn't matter how they parse it. They're an willfully ignorant

asswipe. Public shaming of such individuals is in order.

No quarter to be given to those who try and analyze their way out of being jackasses

[Crazy Guggenheim]

53. Hmm. Try these snappy retorts.

"You sound like the Demos during the elections."

Or:

"I know what you're against, but what do you stand for?"

Or:

"Yeah but the Repubs are following the Nazis."

[ProSense]

56. I'm more antiSense than proStupid.

This is one of the 37 percent folks.

[ToeBot]

57. Invoking the "Forefathers", how incredibly.... Chinese! n/t