I can't believe the "Tookiemania" that has taken over this forum

[CatWoman]

Ok, we get the point.

You don't believe he deserves clemency.

We fucking get it.

However it's not your decision.

Damn good thing too.

[MissB]

1. Even my Faux-loving step-father

and my fundy mother believes that the guy deserves to have his sentence commuted to life.

[DS1]

2. Yeah, we got our Took on

[Walt Starr]

3. I predict it will all be over com Dec. 13. n/t

[okieinpain]

38. Me too.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

147. Hmmm. My Birthday... Same Day Saddam Was Supposedly Captured.

[Walt Starr]

170. And the date Williams is scheduled to be executed. n/t

[LSK]

4. well its better than all the War on Christmas talk, BARELY

The right wants you to talk about the war on Christmas so we DONT talk about the fvcked up Economy, Iraq, Deficits, Katrina.

[walldude]

5. The decision should be up to the victims families

While it's easy to sit here and armchair this guy, I can see both sides of this. The guy has done some good things after he was busted, but on the other hand he started one of the largest street gangs ever, and he murdered 4 people in cold blood. Funny Cat, most of the "tookiemania" posts I have been seeing have been in favor of clemency for him, I guess I missed the "fry him" posts. Personally I'm not really for the death penalty so I'd just as soon see him doing life, but I'm in no position to judge this.

[CatWoman]

9. I've seen at least three "fry him" threads.

[Walt Starr]

40. I think the anti-Tookie threads

are a response to the inundation of pro-Tookie spam the past week or so.

[satireV]

35. What if the victim had no family?

More class warfare.

BTW the crime is against the state....not the family.

[okieinpain]

42. I'm not for frying him, but he should get the needle. I didn't see to

many posts saying that.

[shanti]

112. come on...

fry, inject, what's the differnce? he'd be dead anyway. i don't believe in the death penalty. life in prison is enough punishment.

[okieinpain]

119. hey, being put to sleep is a lot different then seeing your wife get

her face blown off. then seeing your daughter get two blasts from a shotgun in the stomach. I'd take a sleep induced death over that any time.

[Czolgosz]

45. "The People of California v. Williams" should be up to all Californians.

I'd want a say if someone was was going to be killed in my name. I don't think the victims' families are very likely to have a response to the issues that is based on reason rather than emotion.

[slackmaster]

132. 68% of CA registered voters support the DP for violent offenders

According to a March 2004 Field poll.

by Mark DiCamillo and Mervin Field

In the midst of another highly publicized appeal to overturn a death penalty conviction, two-thirds
(68%) of California voters continue to support capital punishment for serious crimes. Despite this,
a sizeable minority (31%) does not agree that the death penalty has been imposed in a generally
fair manner and free of error....

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/RLS2112.pdf

I would wager a pint of your favorite microbrew that a solid majority of Californians favor the execution of Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

I don't, but I don't believe Williams deserves any special consideration.

:beer:

[Czolgosz]

139. What makes you think a majority should rule? Juries must be unanimous to

impose the death penalty under California law, and a mere majority is far short of that standard. 1977 Cal.Stats., ch. 316, 12.

I don't know enough of the facts to agree or disagree that Williams deserves special consideration (if it is true that the prosecutors abused their office during the pretrial investigation or the trial or appeal I might consider that grounds for special consideration), but I think no one -- including Williams -- should be executed. It's barbaric. It's inequitably enforced in a manner biased on race, gender, economic class, and region. It's a deeply flawed system as evidenced by the acquittals of many who lingered on death row until the advent of modern DNA evidence. And the arguments most often offered in defense of capital punishment (cost efficiency, deterrence, etc.) are factually inaccurate.

[KC_25]

153. apparently they were

unanimous..hmmm

[Czolgosz]

156. That's my understanding. I don't know if the jury was fairly selected but

regardless, I favor clemency in Williams's case and in all other death penalty cases.

[KC_25]

Well, I don't

It was a racially mixed jury, and it had one black person on it..

[Czolgosz]

189. The prosecutor used every one of his strikes on black jurors, didn't he?

That raises some serious question under the Batson case. In fact, I think that the prosecutor is someone who was sanctioned by a California courts for improperly using race as a criterion in the jury selection process, and the prosecutor has had several murder convictions overturned on the specific grounds of his racially motivated jury tactics which violate the constitutional Batson protections. I don't know all the facts, but I know that it is genuinely suspicious when a prosecutor uses his jury strikes in what appears to be a racially motivated fashion.

[KC_25]

192. Nope

Did the defense use every one of his against whites?

[Czolgosz]

196. Where do you get your details about the jury selection in Williams's trial

I don't know either way about Williams's counsel's jury selection tactics, but I've never read a case where the state successfully raised a Batson challenge. Also, it's not a key issue to me because I oppose his execution (anyone's execution) regardless of how the jury selection process occurred. Still, I am curious about your specific source for this fairly obscure bit of information. Please tell me where you learned about how the prosecutor exercised his peremptory jury strikes.

[KC_25]

197. as soon as you tell me where you got yours

stateing that he did use every strike on black jurors

[Czolgosz]

202. A show called the Abrams Report on MSNBC.

[KC_25]

216. and what source did they cite?

the save tookie.com...
Well in that case, I got my information from the DA filings.

[Czolgosz]

234. It was an interview with the prosecutor. DAs don't generally file racial

data profiles about how they exercised their peremptory jury strikes. In fact, in this case, I had understood that part of Williams's ineffective-assistance-of-counsel claims was based on his counsel's failure to preserve the evidence of the prosecutor's Batson violation, but I could be wrong. Where did you find those DA filings? I don't think it's available on-line so I'm wondering if you traveled to the district clerk's office to search for some specific record of how the DA exercised his peremptory strikes.

[Czolgosz]

238. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you have no real source for your BS

At least that's the distinct impression I get from your hasty retreat after promising to tell me where you got your dubious "facts." If you can recall where you found the nonsense you keep spouting as the basis for your arguments, please pass along that great source of legal information. I'd be glad to know it.

[Czolgosz]

241. Still no answer?

If you are claiming that you got the information from the Abrams report you (1) have lied when you said you got it from the DA's files and/or (2) lied when you said you got it from the Abrams interview with the prosecutor because the prosecutor DID NOT EVER DENY THAT HE USED HIS PEREMPTORY STRIKES against only black people.

Lying about receiving a blow job is shameful, but lying to make points in favor of killing someone, that's something else.

[slackmaster]

171. Because you wrote...

..."The People of California v. Williams" should be up to all Californians.

It appeared that you were saying the people should decide. If not through their elected representatives or by a simple majority vote, then how?

Is 2/3 (actually 68%) not enough of a supermajority for you?

:wtf:

I think no one -- including Williams -- should be executed. It's barbaric.

I agree with you on that. But Williams is a poor choice of poster person for the issue. Californians by and large hate his guts because of what he has done. They feel he deserves severe punishment. I know I do.

[Czolgosz]

185. It should be up to Californians but killing in the name of the people is

an issue of such moral gravity that we ought to require something more than a mere majority of the voting population to authorize it. Why don't we execute individuals based on a mere majority vote among the jurors? For the same reason, we should require something more than a mere majority of poll takers or voters to embrace the death penalty as a society. If a third of the population thinks that the death penalty is state-sanctioned retaliatory killing, should we really be killing these convicts in the name of those people who comprise the state but feel the death penalty is akin to state-sanctioned murder? The death penalty is not just an act committed by one person to another; it's an act of the state on behalf of the people.

I have no thoughts on whether Williams is a good or bad poster child. I don't doubt that he's done bad things, unforgivable things, violent things, and -- very likely -- the murderous things he was sentenced to death for committing, but I wouldn't expect that anyone would find a slightly smudged saint sitting on death row waiting to serve as a pristine poster boy for repeal of the death penalty. Ultimately, my main opposition against the death penalty isn't because of the character of the folks on death row but because of the character of everyone on whose behalf the convict is being executed.

[Mutley]

47. There was a BIG 'fry him' thread here last night...

And some of the posts within it seemed to come damn near 'fry the DUers who are on his side'.

[Sapphire Blue]

107. My thanks to DU on this subject...

(me being one of "the DUers who are on his side")

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5535280&mesg_id=5538598

[sandnsea]

48. That's democracy for chrissake

OF COURSE YOU ARE. It's YOUR COUNTRY. It's YOUR justice system. YOU have to live with the results of a "hang 'em high" mentality. The exact reason we DON'T leave it up to the families is so we DON'T have a vengeance oriented society like they have in the ME.

But even if you want to go there, the bother of Owens is perfectly happy with life imprisonment too. Instead they've got his step-mother on the teevee, interesting choice.

[walldude]

71. Well since I already stated that I'm not a proponent of the DP

then it's obvious where I stand on this. However, have you read the court documents on what this guy did? It was cold blooded pre meditated murder. Not only that but apparently he has attempted to escape more than once. Sounds like a danger to society to me. But again, I am in no position to judge. This may be my country and my justice system but I am certainly not INFORMED enough to make a qualified decision. If I had all the facts and a chance to talk to him then yeah maybe I could make the decision. All I have are some links and some opinions from a web board. That does not qualify me to pass judgement. If you think you are qualified based on what you have read here to judge him then we have a difference of opinion on "justice".

[sandnsea]

85. oh, so you do have an opinion

I see. But you're just not comfortable taking a real stand on putting him to death. How convenient.

[walldude]

97. OH please...

I suppose you have met with "tookie" you have heard the families of the victims, you have read court documents and you have made an "INFORMED" opinion. I'm not comfortable "taking a real stand" when I'm not well enough informed to take one. If you think that a person not making a decision because he doesn't have enough FACTS is wrong then enjoy your ignorance.

[sandnsea]

138. Then READ the court documents

Read the interviews with the families. Educate yourself. And make a decision. THEN have the guts to stand up and be counted. Even if it means standing up for someone like Stanley Williams and risk having somebody call you a bleeding heart who cuddles up with cold blooded murderers.

[KC_25]

148. I have read the court documents

I have sifted through alot of the appellate stuff as well, I have listened to the "tookie cookies" on the radio, on the TV, from the webcasts that have been posted here. I have read all kinds of stuff, because this is one of the major news items in SoCal atm.
The guy is guilty and deserves his fate. I have stood, now count me. Let him die.

[sandnsea]

212. That's taking a stand

Not sluffing it off on somebody else because you don't have the guts to say what you believe. That's the entire point of a democracy and our justice system. The people hear the evidence and dispense justice. We don't have a vigilante system that we turn over to the victims and their families. Clemency from the Governor is part of that system, expressing a view to the Governor is part of it as well. Democracy in action. Take part or don't complain when the system doesn't work.

[KC_25]

142. because his real mother is dead

died when he a was a boy and she help to raise him

[Shakespeare]

62. I STRONGLY disagree.

We have a judicial system in place as a buffer between the victim and criminal, and it's for society's good. Jury verdict = justice; families deciding fate = vengeance.

[TahitiNut]

131. Oh, that'd be great. Call it "Hatfield-McCoy Justice"!!

What an incredibly #$%^& idea! :eyes: :puke:

[CatWoman]

159. I'm a' pickin

and I'm a grinnin :D

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

190. (grin) Sometimes I think less than half of DUers even comprehend ...

... what 'liberal' means. "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" :eyes:

:loveya: :hug:

[eridani]

210. Or Saudi Arabian justice

Should there be a special DU tour of ChopChop Square for all the more bloodthirsty types? Myself, I'm sick of being on the same goddam list as Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, China etc. on all the death penalty, women's rights and children's rights issues.

If Tookie can talk more kids out of being gangbangers as he spends the rest of his life in prison, that will do more good than killing him.

[Fescue4u]

6. Actually I think its the tookie groupies that are spamming the forum

But you're right, its not our decision.

Somehow this doesnt seem to stop the tookie fan club from starting threads, nor anyone from replying to express their disdain of Tookies crimes.

I'll be glad when we can talk about things other than tookie and/or air marshall shooting.

[GrumpyGreg]

8. If you don't want to participate,skip the thread. Simple.

[Fescue4u]

21. agreed

[MADem]

7. What is this 'we' shit?

I really have no firm opinion, I really do not know enough about the case, so I am not in the 'we' or the 'thee' camps.

I can't believe that there was barely any mention of friken PEARL HARBOR on the news yesterday. So much for a day that will live in INFAMY...guess they figure so many of the Greatest Generation have gone, they don't have to remind people of our history anymore.

I wonder if people might compare it to the WTC business, the dead in Iraq, and start asking questions about how and why people must die, and how many have to die, and what WAR really is...? From the administration's standpoint, guess it is better to soft-pedal one of the darkest days in our history.

[CatWoman]

10. well, you still have the 25th anniversary of John Lennon's death

...............

[GrumpyGreg]

11. I'm a Mass Dem too----the media is too busy covering Brad and

Angela and Jennifer etc. (I'll bet you don't even need their last names)

[Endangered Specie]

12. and whats best... on 13 December, when the pig dies...

all of the pathetic and disgusting 'efforts' to prove his 'innocence' will have been for nothing, and that alone will make me :toast: :beer:

[CatWoman]

13. yeah, like this lady

Virginia Jacobs, a sister of Robert Clark, gets a tear wiped away by great-niece Nia Young. Clark was freed from prison today after DNA evidence cleared him of a 1981 rape.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/cobb/1205/08metinnocent.html

[Endangered Specie]

14. Im talking about the tookie case...

red herring.

[CatWoman]

16. no, not really

when you think that in order for her outcome to become reality, someone had to fight.

[Endangered Specie]

19. except there is nothing to fight here...

every last appeal has found the guilty verdict valid (people on Death row get far more appeals and reviews than non capital cases).

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/cooleytogov.pdf
http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

[CatWoman]

23. I respectfully disagree

http://www.tookie.com/

The U.S. Supreme Court, on October 11, 2005, ruled against Tookie on his final appeal and set his execution date for December 13. Thus they disregarded 9 of the 24 Ninth Circuit Court judges' assertion that the District Attorney at Tookie's trial employed "reprehensible and unconstitutional" racist tactics, using animal-in-a-jungle metaphors to refer to Tookie and to the South Central environment in which he lived. This landmark ruling means that minorities can now legally be rejected from juries based on race. This is now the law of the land.

[Endangered Specie]

33. I respectfully shoot down the credibility of your source.

Thats kinda like going to creationism.org to look for facts about evolution.



http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie1.htm Scroll down about 2/3rds.

[CatWoman]

34. It is a fact that blacks were thrown off the jury. It is a fact.

I'm about "fair" trials, you know?

But then, that's just me.

[Endangered Specie]

41. your point being?

people are ALWAYS thrown off juries!

the final jury was of mixed race was it not?

[Silverhair]

122. Whites were also refused service on that jury. In fact, in all juries...

...several times more people are called than actually serve. So you can usually assemble 12 of any race and claim they were denied service and make it look racist. The final jury had three minorities, including one obvious black.

[CatWoman]

124. I've read several stories to the contrary

who(m) to believe?

In any event:

Prosecutors maintain that the evidence against him was overwhelming. But the two federal courts that reviewed Williams' case did not appear to be overwhelmed, even though they upheld his convictions and death sentence.

The prosecution's case was based on circumstantial evidence and the testimony of witnesses "whose credibility was highly suspect,'' U.S. District Judge Stephen Wilson wrote in 1998. He noted that there were no eyewitnesses to the shotgun murders of three people at a Los Angeles motel and that the only testifying eyewitness to the killing of a convenience store clerk was "an accomplice who had a strong motive to lie.''

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/07/WILLIAMS.TMP

Therefore, I still have major problems with this conviction.

[KC_25]

154. yeah except the other accomplice

that didn't get immunity said the same thing at his own trial...

[Czolgosz]

145. What makes you think people on death row get more appeals?

I'm not familiar with California procedure, but in many states I am familiar with the death row inmates get the same appellate system as every other inmate (they file more habeas corpus petitions, but there is nothing to stop a shoplifter from filing the same habeas corpus petitions).

[okieinpain]

51. cool, somebody better dig up some dna for tookie and quick.

[Thtwudbeme]

17. omg.

do you actually mean that?

[CatWoman]

18. he obviously does.

he believes in red herrings, too.

personally, I like red snapper.

[Endangered Specie]

22. would I have not posted it if I did not mean it?

the efforts on this board and elsewhere to potray this man as a saint is sickening!

[Thtwudbeme]

24. As bad as Tookie was or is

I would rather spend time with him than someone like you. At least he appears to have a soul.

[CatWoman]

26. ooooooooooo

*SNAP*

[goclark]

166. Double snap

and thank you CatWoman for your dignity and wisdom.

I am continually amazed that people that believe that GW is a killer of thousands of people , found no WMD and stole Ohio, should get a Pass.


If we want to talk about our real enemy, it is not Tookie, it is GWB!
Why gets so violent about Tookie?!
Tookie is small change and he needs to rot in his cell.

I am beginning to wonder if our pain and suffering from two stolen elections has ruined our ability to try to understand those that are the have nots.

The beauty of being A Democrat, IMO, is that we are not Bullies, we are the thinkers, the smart ones, the Peace Makers.

But not on this issue, this is the hot button where we see the anger from being the Powerless Party ~what have we come to?

[Endangered Specie]

27. once again folks, there you have it

you can't make this shit up.

Generally speaking, shooting 4 people begging for their lives at point blank range with a shotgun invalidates the "having the soul" bit.


Or does it have to be at least 10 people? :sarcasm:

[Thtwudbeme]

44. I would be willing to bet you that I have been to more murder scenes than

you have.

I have been up close and looked in the faces of victims; it's not pretty. They die terrified.

However, this man's death isn't going to improve your life, bring those people back, or benefit society.

I am sorry that you cannot see that--in fact I am very sorry that you can't see that.

[stepnw1f]

83. Very Good

I just don't understand people's desire to see this or anyone's death. Besides, it's not justice to end someone's life. Let the man serve his sentence.

[Thtwudbeme]

103. No, it's not justice

and sadly, this poster who clearly is in favor of state sanctioned killing...and probably votes that way...won't even remember this man's name in the coming years.

It really means nothing to most people except some bullshit to argue over. I guess they think it makes them "tough."

Campassion for the worst of humanity is tough....BS'ing on an internet board is just crap.

[KC_25]

172. well

I have no compassion for the worst of humanity...
so I guess that I am not tough,... but then again, I didn't go around and gun down 4 innocnet people either, so I guess I am not tough in that regard either...oh well, my loss

[fishwax]

203. I don't understand it either

it's blood lust, and I find it pretty sad.

[H2O Man]

28. There are a number

of very disturbed individuals on DU, who think that the death of someone they do not know will improve their lives. Very sad.

[CatWoman]

37. and I can't get over how nasty and smug they are

[Thtwudbeme]

46. Arrogance over their ugliness

like Bush and Delay and that whole fucking gang of people in the WH. Just mean, and proud as hell of it.

[H2O Man]

49. It is rare indeed

that people express such emotional disturbances in a healthy manner.

[KC_25]

146. It will improve my life

..because I will no longer have to hear about his bogus redemtion and all the Nobel Peace prizes and literture prizes for books that sold ~330 copies..

Tookie is his gang name, he won't let it go
he refuses to cooperate and gie up others in the gang
He murdered in cold blood at least four people
he has shown no contrition for the crimes

and if he is granted clemenancy the "tookie cookies" will not stop if they believe their own hyperbole, because he was wrongly convicted by a rascist jury..so if they stand by that, then he shouldnt spend the rest of his life in prison, he should be free..
I am sorry, some people deserve to die, he is one of them.

[H2O Man]

149. Your life

must seem empty to you.

[KC_25]

155. Not really

I have a wife, children and others on the way..

I would rather work to keep them alive, healthy, and well fed than a murderous bastard like that.
If you believe that Tookie was wrongly convicted and sentenced, then the next step after clemency is getting him out right? If not, then you do not believe your own hyperbole, in which case makes me wonder why you are spreading it... but that is just my take on it.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KC_25]

163. I am sorry

what non sense did I make up?
please provide proof that i made it up?

[H2O Man]

167. Sure.

Tell me where I have ever said Williams is not guilty? How about that for a start?

[KC_25]

169. Maybe not you personally

but so many others have..

and have you not said that he was wrongly convicted and sentenced? If not then I apologize to you personally, but to those that have said that...well you get the idea

[H2O Man]

178. No.

I did not say that. You are confused.

[KC_25]

181. Ok,

SO to you I apologize. but so many others here state outright, that he was wrongly convicted by a rascist jury and wrongly sentenced by the same jury. So if they believe their own hype, the next step after clemency is to get him released, otherwise, they simply do not have the courage of their convictions right?

[H2O Man]

187. I am in no

position to say what other people think about that. It's difficult enough when people say that I have been saying Williams is innocent, and that I advocate his being freed. However, I do note that the general issue at hand is if he should be executed, or spend the rest of his life in prison.

[KC_25]

191. Alright,

I say that he should be executed.
As to what other people think...just read their threads and posts, it is pretty apparent.

[H2O Man]

194. I think the issues

are distinct, although I recognize that you are right in saying they are related. From what evidence that I am awareof, it appears he is most likely guilty, but did not have a fair trial. However, that is not my concern.

I do not believe in the death penalty. I know that others are, and that it is a topic worth discussing. My views are based on a number of things, including having a friend who came very close to being executed (he served 20 years before being found to have not commited the crime in question), thus my concern with innocent people being convicted; my feelings about the potential for redemption, which does not imply release from prison; and my beliefs in the value of human life, and the damage that killing people does to society.

It seems particularly troubling that many of the pro-death penalty people take a delight in the thought of Williams being executed. That indicates a mind twisted by hatred to me. I believe in the power of the good mind.

[okieinpain]

don't be too quick with that. it takes a mean person to blow the

back of someone's head off, then later on shoot someone else in the face with the same shotgun. I don't think you ever loose that kind of meanness.

[Thtwudbeme]

65. I disagree with you

I believe that once people are given a roof over their heads, three meals a day, and relative safety from the streets (and yes, prison is safer than the streets...and yes...I do know what goes on in them, I used to pick up prisoners when I worked on the ambulance)...that they can think more clearly, and form new perspectives on things.

Are you familiar with Buddhism? Billions of people try to follow a man who didn't become who he was until he was in his thirties.

Ghandi..was not as wise when he was born.

Peoople grow with age...spiritually--if you will.

So, no. I believe you are wrong

[Endangered Specie]

67. Tell that to his victims,

Im sure they will be perfectly understanding.

[Thtwudbeme]

73. I can't even get you to understand it

You are smart enough to own a computer...I think you are an adult--but, you can't see how your ugliness and lack of compassion for human life are going to harm you eventually, like a poison in your heart. You think you are being tough and cool on an internet board, but if you really believe this stuff, the damage is only to yourself.

Good luck to you.

[Endangered Specie]

75. maybe so, but at least I am not blindingly naive and gullible

"everyone in prison is innocent, didnt you know that"

[Thtwudbeme]

76. I spent 10 years as a paramedic

I have been the victim of a violent crime that could have cost me my life.

Do you really believe I am naive?

[Endangered Specie]

84. Well...

if you think that

-Tookie 'might' have a soul
-because hes "gotten older" (as opposed to those of us who get younger) he has 'softened up' or otherwise improved
-this ordeal has anything to do with race

then yes

[Thtwudbeme]

86. There are many stories throughout history of

people who were murderous, heinous people who realized what they had done, and spent the remainder of their lives attempting to pay back a debt to society.

The soul can mature into wisdom...I wish you would let yours.

Stephanie

[Endangered Specie]

88. Well I doubt my soul will ever mature...

mainly because I dont believe in souls, but thats a whole nother debate...


as far as those who are henious and turn around, Tookie is NOT one, and even if he were, that still does not mean he (or any murderer) deserves to get off the hook.

[Thtwudbeme]

89. ahhhh a young atheist/agnostic!

Well, then if you believe there is nothing there...then Tookie's death really doesn't mean anything, does it? So why bother? We're all just going to be dirt anyway-

[KC_25]

150. and if he has been redeemed

then he will go to heaven and we are doing him a favor!

[Little Star]

90. Perhaps the problem is the blind faith you

seem to have in our justice system. I can tell you that that kind of blind faith is very dangerous. I do not know if Tookie is guilty or not but just because he was convicted does not make it so. Life in prison with out parole is all I can bear to have done in my name until our system is 100% perfect.

[Endangered Specie]

95. well, since no credible evidence to his innocence has surfaced

that combined with the evidence against him, Id say we are good to go.

[Little Star]

106. I hear the evidence against him was

circumstantial not forensic. He very may be guilty as far as I can see but very may well be and 100% guilty are far apart. No death penalty for fear of executing one innocent person.

[KC_25]

152. The shotgun that was used

was bought by him....

the "tookie cookies" purport that it was found under the bed of anoter married couple..what they fail to mention that the married couple was Tookie's step father and his wife, whom, tookie had just lived with...

MANY witnesses testified against Tookie, one man, who had absolutely nothing to gain, and was not given immunity testified to it as his own trial...

[sendero]

113. The thing I find disturbing..

.. about this case is the part where this man has never expressed remorse, admitted responsibility or made any kind of apology.

Is that true, that is what I read?

If it were my decision to make, I'd probaby go with life in prison - ONLY because the case against him was strong, but not "beyond the shadow of a doubt", which is the standard I'd require for death penalty cases.

If the proof was there, I'd support the death penalty - but I read the .pdf - the case is not perfect.

The "founded the Crips" stuff is completely irrelevant IMHO.

[okieinpain]

118. wow, I didn't know ghandi killed someone. and I believe from the

transcript of the trial that Mr. Tookie had a place to live. hell even his friends didn't want to kill someone. I could see your point if he had killed someone during a drug deal, or fight. but he went out and intentionally found victims, that he knew were not going to be armed, and that he could easily over power, and he did it more then once.

And one other thing I don't understand in any of the testimony does he say he was somewhere else. not once is that alibi mention. I don't understand that, if you didn't do it just say I wasn't there.

[CatWoman]

126. you didn't know Ghandi was a murderous thug?

where the fuck have you been?

He PERSONALLY ran Saddamn's rape rooms.

[okieinpain]

136. Well holy catwoman, you learn something every day at DU.....

[stepnw1f]

80. Nice Smackdown! (nt)

[Fescue4u]

29. Tookie sold almost 400 books!

Thats good enough for clemency.

It takes 500 to qualify for sainthood.

[TreasonousBastard]

30. It's not about innocence...

it's about the death penalty and whether or not we should execute someone who is apprenatly not who he was when the crime was committed. Have we completely forgotten the concepts of redemption?

Although you must pay for crime, it's not necessary to pay with your life.

And,it does become unseemly when people celebrate the deaths of others, even those they hardly know about except from media coverage.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[okieinpain]

50. Ouch....

[Mutley]

58. You know, I can respect that many here feel he should be put to death

but your post goes beyond that belief, and well into the bloodlust territory. Frightening.

[Endangered Specie]

72. bloodlust?

I was saying that it will be seing all the efforts to beatify him fail thatll make me happy (reread my post).

[Mutley]

81. Yeah, bloodlust. Toast smilie and all.

Sick.

[redwitch]

102. that's really sad

I do not believe in the death penalty. State murder is still murder. But even though there are people for whom I would find it difficult to weep at their deaths, I certainly do not celebrate anyone's death, especially by violence. You could use a spiritual awakening, it seems to me.
The death of this man improves the world not one iota. From what I have read he is actually helping to turn people away from gang violence. He has a reason to exist, he is doing good, life in prison works for me.

[Loonman]

15. Commute his sentence to life

So I don't have to give a shit anymore.

Oh yeah, the Crips? Great bunch of people. Very active.

[Thtwudbeme]

20. my god,

I can't believe some of the responses to your thread.

Jesus Christ, we are barbarians in this country. I shouldn't have clicked on this.

[CatWoman]

25. this must be what it's like in Freeperville in July.

[okieinpain]

59. wow, you noticed that. I figured that out when I saw that postcard

of the guy getting hung in my history book. people actually took their babys to see a black man get hanged by a mob.

[Thtwudbeme]

68. Yes, dear. But since that picture was taken

I assumed America was getting on the right track.

I guess not.

[Loonman]

32. Well, I hope they decide what to do, soon

I'm sick of hearing about it. Maybe because I know if i killed four people, found Jesus and renounced my ways, I'd still whiff the gas, get the needle or dance on the electric griddle.

[Cleita]

36. If Charles Manson gets to live his life out in prison, so

should Tookie IMHO.

[CatWoman]

39. very good point, Cleita

:hi:

very well said.

[Fescue4u]

55. If Charles Manson were scheduled for execution next week

I bet we would be getting spammed with "save poor innocent charlie" threads.

[Endangered Specie]

56. i bet you good money there will be at least one save saddam thread

when his time comes.

[CatWoman]

64. well, actually, Saddam is one cool motherfucker

we're pen pals, you know.

[stepnw1f]

93. Actually, You'll Get A Thread Against the Death Penalty

Then somebody such as yourself will spin it to look like DU'ers are "Sadamists". Did I get that right? Regardless with who it is, people such as myself are against the Death Penalty.

[CatWoman]

98. no wonder his ass is endangered

[stepnw1f]

99. I Thought of That Too

Endangered endangering.

[Endangered Specie]

193. reduced to ad hominems are we?

[stepnw1f]

229. "reduced"... snort... whatever pal

delude yourself a little more why don't ya....

I think somebody got their tail kicked pretty badly on this thread, and it shows.

[CatWoman]

233. let's pelt him with spitballs

:D

[stepnw1f]

235. I'm Already Loaded...

did ya see that last shot... that was fun. Hiya Cat? I'll have to show you my (feline) son sometime. His name is Seth. I try to post his pic tonight.

[Endangered Specie]

239. hahaha, and they accuse ME of being immature...

Sometimes you have to work for them, sometimes they are handed to you.

[Silverhair]

186. Already been a thread claiming Saddam was only legal ruler of Iraq. NT

[CatWoman]

236. well, wasn't he?

[okieinpain]

60. sadly that is true.

[NYC Liberal]

66. Anyone who is truly against state executions would do so, for anyone.

And it's not about being innocent, it's about the KILLING by the state, about the revenge replacing justice.

[Mutley]

78. Did it ever occur to you that some of us are just against the death

penalty, whether the criminal in question is Charles Manson, Saddam Hussein, Tookie Williams, or YOU if you commited murder? Is that such a horrible position to take in your mind? Because many many liberals take that position and if that's such an awful thing then maybe DU isn't the place you should be.

[Fescue4u]

79. Most definitely. But the most vocal of the Tookie fan club

are actually claiming that he is innocent.

If you oppose tookie execution on grounds that you oppose cap punishment, fine. Lets debate that.

But please spare me the sad story of Tookie and how he was redeemed by selling 400 books.

[Mutley]

82. Don't tell me to spare you anything

because I have never once argued his innocence or his redemption. But you and some others on this thread are going on about "tookie fans" this and that, posting the :toast: smilie, and overall celebrating a death to come and that the DUers you disagree with will have been wrong. It's all pretty damn sick in my mind.

[Fescue4u]

135. spare me

the indignation.

I wasnt talking about you.

[Mutley]

225. Well, you were talking to me...

without making clear who you are talking about so I can reasonably assume I am included in your assesment.

And that doesn't make celebrating death any less sick.

[Silverhair]

188. I can respect your opinion.

I may disagree with it, but I can respect it. I can even understand those who have some questions about his guilty, although I personally have none. What I am angry with are the Tookie Cookies who lie and misrepresent to push the idea that he is innocent.

[Mutley]

224. I dont think anyone is DU is lying...

I think they truly believe he is innocent.

[fishwax]

205. i wouldn't want to see manson executed

but i don't think he's innocent.

[BoneDaddy]

Amen

Look the guy was a bad man. It seems he has turned his life around and is openly promoting anti-gang action. I say let him live out his life in jail while he continues to speak out against gang activity. I will pay for that. How rarely do we see this kind of understanding occur in prison.

Besides, what is more of a punishment? Dying and returning to the source or spending every day of the rest of your life locked up. If I was in that situation, I would probably off myself.

[Endangered Specie]

63. oh yeah, he turned around all right

Good lord do people really believe a murderer when he says hes changed? He tried to run gang activities from prison, even planning a (rather violent) escape attempt. His book hasnt sold, and was promoted and probably largely written by his hired publicist.

(people will do anything to save their own neck, his is about the third oldest trick in the book, next to "finding Jesus")

[BoneDaddy]

91. Ok

Do you call yourself a Dem or a liberal? I thought being anti-death penalty meant not killing folks.

[Cleita]

70. Not only that, unlike Charles Manson, who has never

shown remorse for his actions, Tookie has and has tried to become an anti-gang spokesman.

[KC_25]

165. by not giving up

names of his former gang members, or telling who the leader of the gang are, or by giving the cops info that he as a leader should be privy to

[Fescue4u]

214. Tookie DENIES his actions

he hasnt even gotten to the part where he shows remorse yet.

Tookie is several steps away from redemption.

[Maestro]

61. And at least Tookie

tried to do some good in his life while in prison. Now remind me. Is prison for reforming people are simply waiting to kill them?

[slackmaster]

There was no death penalty when Manson was convicted

If there had been one, it's pretty likely he would have received it.

About 2/3 of California voters approve of the DP as of a March 2004 Field poll. A majority have been reported as favoring a moratorium on the DP, but not for Tookie Williams.

[Cleita]

77. I am aware of that, but as long as Charles Manson and

one or two other serial killers I know about can be allowed to live out their lives in prison, so should Tookie, who didn't commit that many murders in comparison and like I said he has shown remorse, which the others haven't.

[slackmaster]

123. I am not convinced by Tookie's claims of reform

But I oppose the DP for reasons I have stated many times.

[Cleita]

127. Well, one of the ways to know how sincere he is

would be to commute his sentence to life.

[slackmaster]

128. I think all death sententences should be commuted to life

No problem with that, but Tookie doesn't deserve special treatment IMO.

[Cleita]

130. Well, like I mentioned about Charles Manson,

he got his death sentence commuted to life when the DP was outlawed. It seems it should have been reinstated then when it was brought back.

So my point is that if they are going to sentence others to the DP, and let Manson and others slide by, it's not very fair.

I don't think anyone should get the DP because of this. It's time to make the DP illegal in California again.

[slackmaster]

129. I think all death sententences should be commuted to life

No problem with that, but Tookie doesn't deserve special treatment IMO.

[KC_25]

177. or he could show sincerity

by being debriefed by the cops and spilling the beans on his gang buddies

[Cleita]

180. Do you know what they would do to him in prison if

he sang? Even protective custody wouldn't save him. He would be better off being executed.

[KC_25]

184. Then i guess he is still putting

the betterment of his skin over the betterment of society huh, no redemption in my eyes there. It would show me that he takes responsibility and is willing to pay the consequences. otherwise, it is all just a PR show...enjoy the potassium bolus tookie

[H2O Man]

87. Yes there was.

He was sentenced to death, along with the co-defendants. The USSC ruling that temporarily end capital punishment was handed down while he was on death row.

[Ladyhawk]

213. Actually I think his sentence was commuted when the DP was declared

unconstitutional.

[Ms. K]

220. That's actually incorrect.

Charles Manson was sentenced to death, as were Patricia Krenwinkle, Susan Atkins, and Leslie Van Houten. March 29, 1971, the jury, after the completion of the penalty phase of the trial, recommended death for all four defendants tried at that time. Charles "Tex" Watson was tried almost a year later, due to extradition issues.

April 19, 1971, Superior Court Judge Charles H. Older sentenced all four defendants to death.

In 1972, all four death sentences were commuted to life in prison when the California Supreme Court abolished the death penalty.

So yes, Charles Manson was originally sentenced to a date with the gas chamber (no lethal injection in 1971, after all). His sentence was commuted to life in prison WITH the possibility of parole only after the California Supreme Court abolished the death penalty a year later.

The Manson Family, the trial of Charles Manson, Patricia Krenwinkle, Leslie Van Houten, and Susan Atkins has been a "pet project" of mine for a long, long time now. So, pardon my correction of your statement.

[slackmaster]

240. OK everyone, I stand corrected

Manson et al were sentenced to death, but the DP that was in effect at the time was ruled to be unconstitutional.

Sorry for farkling up my facts.

[WinkyDink]

244. This is incorrect; Manson et al. DID receive the DP.

It was declared unconstitutional, all CA. death sentences were lessened to LIP with parole, and THEN the non-retroactive DP was re-instated.

[T Town Jake]

101. Since you're obviously unaware of the history in this area of law...

...I'll help you out.

Charles Manson was sentenced to death. The California Supreme Court voided all death sentences, and shortly afterward the U.S. Supreme Court followed suit in 1972. As a result, all persons sitting on death row at that time had their sentences automatically commuted to life in prison (or whatever the maximum sentence in any given state was at the time of conviction).

The Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, but it could not be reimposed on those who had already had their death sentences commuted in 1972.

That is why Charles Manson "gets to live his life out in prison."

Educate yourself before you post; I've found it saves time and embarrassment.

[Cleita]

121. I'm not embarrassed.

I said I knew that. I was alive then and read the newspapers. Therefore, let me repeat what I said. Charles Manson gets to live his sentence out for life while Tookie will be executed for much less.

[H2O Man]

200. Well said. n/t

[fishwax]

207. what does that have to do with what cleita posted?

:shrug: she didn't make any factual claims about the manson case ...

[KC_25]

162. I think manson should

die, and the sooner the better, IMO...but wasn't the death penalty banned when he went to trial? and it is against the law to retry for the same crime to try and get a stiffer penalty..

Red herring

[Jamastiene]

242. Best.Point.Made.So.Far n/t

[WilliamPitt]

43. The Air Marshall should shoot Tookie Williams

:P

Wheeee!!! GD!!!!

*fleeing*

[CatWoman]

52. ROFL!!!!

:rofl:

[dolo amber]

53. ...

:rofl:

[Endangered Specie]

54. and he should be singing "merry christmas"

when he pulls the trigger! :evilgrin:

[In_The_Wind]

57. OMG!

[Kingshakabobo]

69. Why didn't I think of that? Curse you Pitt! LOL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[stepnw1f]

94. lol.... (nt)

[donheld]

108. You can't be series

B-)

[FredScuttle]

74. Not killing Tookie Williams

demoralizes the troops, don't ya know?

[Xenotime]

92. He is a good man...

it's sad The Terminator is going to have his way.

[Endangered Specie]

133. IF THIS is your definition of a good man..

Id sure as hell would hate to see a bad one:

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/cooleytogov.pdf

[Pavulon]

158. Name on the murder weapon

That is pretty solid. He filled out the form to nuy the shotgun.

But he proclaims he is innocent.

[KC_25]

174. "he is a good man"

wtf kind of statement is that? I have known some good men, they generally go to homeless shelters and feed the poor, give clothing, protest the war, and help adults learn to read, teach kids who are troubled...
...and they do this without having to put a face to save themselves from the needle.
If tookie is a "good man" I need to call the catholic church and have the fellas I know sainted.

[MrSlayer]

96. Whoa. The Tookie groupies are the ones who have taken over.

Not the people who want Justice served. There have been 8 million "Save Tookie" threads and only ONE in support of the victims.

[stepnw1f]

100. justice? want?

What justice?

[MrSlayer]

104. The justice one who is a mass murderer gets.

Lethal injection.

[Thtwudbeme]

105. and can you please explain to me how that benefits you

or society as a whole?

[MrSlayer]

109. Does it have to benefit me to be just?

Or anyone? I don't think so. He'll just be getting what he deserves and has deserved for a long, long time.

[Thtwudbeme]

114. Yes, laws have to benefit society as a whole

Killing people does not accomplish this; nor is it a deterrent. (Spelling? not sure on that word, sorry)

Killing is unethical, and immoral. It was for the victims, but adding another person to the "dead" list does not benefit us, and makes us a colder, uglier society.

How can you be for state sanctioned killing, but not OK with the war in Iraq? What is "really dead" to you? Is it OK for us to kill certain prisoners, but not others? Is it OK for us to kill people our government tells us need killing?

[MrSlayer]

116. It's easy to be for the DP and against the war.

Tookie deserves to die. The innocent Iraqis and our good Troops do not. Quite simple.

[Thtwudbeme]

120. How do you know we arenot killing really nasty ugly murdering Iraqis with

those bombs?

Have you met them? Can you personally attest to their "innocence" since you have decided to be a moral arbitrator of society?

[fishwax]

209. I agree with you on the DP, but I don't think it's a contradiction to be

against the war and still support the death penalty.

[MrSlayer]

215. Well their innocence is relative.

While the armed forces may have indeed killed some bad people among the thousands of civilians it wasn't our job to do so. We had no business bombing them so they are innocent from that standpoint. Tookie, on the other hand, is not innocent and is in our legal system. He had a trial, a shitload of appeals and was still found to be deserving of the death penalty. He will get what he deserves.

[hiaasenrocks]

110. It doesn't have to benefit anyone personally.

It benefits society in that carrying out the execution fulfills and upholds the result of a legal proceeding. A jury found this man guilty and unanimously sentenced him to death. Over the course of a quarter of a century, numerous courts and judges have reviewed this defendant's appeals (which I've posted on this board many times), and they have rejected every last one of them. Like it or not, this is how the system works. If you want to change it, fine. That's why we live in a representative republic. For now, I'll stand with those who seek to uphold and fulfill the law in this case.

[Thtwudbeme]

117. We do not live in any representative society anymore

That was a pipe dream that has been demolished.

Who represents me? Who represents the people in Mississippi and Louisiana that are living in tents? Who represents the people huddled in card board boxes tonight?

That's bullshit, and you know it.

[hiaasenrocks]

198. Overstate much? It's not perfect but...

Last I checked we still had a representative republic. I thought we still had courts that had judicial review, executive powers for overriding the legislature in some cases. Oh well. We're screwed!

I'm fucking sick of people whining about who represents them. Go out and work your ass off for a challenger in the next election, or mobilize people in your district to make your voice heard to your reps, or across your state so your senator hears you.

That's what I did in my area about an evironmental issue. That's why I joined a local peace group that organizes antiwar rallies and spreads information about the war in Iraq.

Get off your ass. Give up the whining and use some of that energy to change things. Jesus Christ, how pathetic.

[Thtwudbeme]

221. What a cheap, stupid comeback

the last stand of someone who really can't justify their nasty position: to pretend like you know someone from an internet board exchange well enough to give an opinion on what you imagine my life is like.

Pathetic.

[donco6]

227. Good one!

Great point.

[donco6]

111. Justice is blind to personal benefit.

That's pretty much the point of justice.

And I don't care either way on Tookie.

[Thtwudbeme]

115. Then why did you bother to read this thread

you are wasting your time.

[donco6]

199. That's just silly.

C'mon. I have just as much right to read and respond intelligently to a thread as anyone.

[Thtwudbeme]

222. not really. I don't read threads and then add:

"I am not interested in this subject."

[donco6]

226. You just did.

And you wasted our time, too.

[stepnw1f]

232. YEsssss... Must Kill... Must Killl

oooohhh... must kill, kill, kill..... how will we ever get that CHristmas spirit back when we can't kill... this is our only righteous chance to kill. And all you lefties are ruining our only chance. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Go serve in Iraq already. You get to give judgment there.

[fishwax]

208. i want justice served and i want his sentence commuted

i also have deepest sympathies for the victim's families.

[eridani]

211. The death penalty does not "support the victims" n/t

[stepnw1f]

125. The Right Wants 'Tookie' Dead Because...

he may just redeem himself... but first, they need a reason to justify their hatred. Redemption cancels the right wing out. They never believed in the tenants of Jesus Christ. And this case proves it.

Death is meaningless, unless of course, you are a Right Winger who needs someone to judge to feel better about him/herself. Taking life away from someone so they can not redeem themselves before being judged by God. They want to prevent folks from redemption and send them to hell.

They damn people to elevate themselves, their weak false egos.

[Sapphire Blue]

137. Why...

... are there some supposedly on the left who act the same way?

[stepnw1f]

141. Maybe They Aren't "Real" Liberals

I don't know of any... but I'm sure it's a possibility that there are a few. I know many who want everyone to believe there are liberals who believe death is proper retribution for a crime, so that the right gets justified, but I aint seen em. I know one thing for sure... I'm against the death penalty. That makes me pro-life, I guess.:crazy:

[Sapphire Blue]

144. Look through the various threads.

There have been comments, such as "fry him", "pay, suckah". Yes... on this board.

Here is my 'thank you' in response...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5535280&mesg_id=5538598

[stepnw1f]

151. A REAL Liberal Doesn't Condone

death upon any individual. I have a hard time believing some who claim to be "Liberal". There's hope though for those that seem conflicted.... I hope.

[Sapphire Blue]

157. Whoever, whatever they are...

... it has been truly sad to see that kind of blood lust here.

[stepnw1f]

160. Just Grasp the Positive

And remember, there is more good than bad.

[Sapphire Blue]

164. Trying to do just that.

Yes, there is more good than bad... important to remember.

[KC_25]

176. so you are against abortion then too?

at least I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty

[stepnw1f]

228. "At Least"?

The death penalty is a form of punishment. Abortion is a last ditch resort for most women, ussually because of medical or economic reasons. I don't condone abortion, but I also respect a women's right to chose for herself, since it is her flesh and blood. Pro-Choice does not equal Pro-Death; that Right Wing talking Point never made sense.

[KC_25]

179. I don't believe in christ

but hey, if he is redeemed and has salvation, is he not going to a much better place when he leaves this world? So, is a favor not being done for him then...

How bout this idea...we don't kill him, we just put him in a drug induced coma for as long as he can be kept alive...

no "reward" in death, and no death for the Anti-DP crowd, he is just "there"

[Critters2]

134. I don't believe in the death penalty in general

for religious reasons. But I don't see any reason why this case is special. The courts have upheld his conviction time after time. If he were innocent, some appeals court would have found a problem, and ordered a retrial, and he would have been exonerated. I gotta think he's guilty. And these were awful crimes. I don't think he should be treated differently because he got good PR. I don't want him dead, but I don't think he deserves special consideration.

[rug]

140. I don't believe in the death penalty in particular either.

[tlsmith1963]

143. Mixed Feelings

My feelings are mixed about Tookie. Yes he seems to have done some good, but he still killed people. At least no one is saying he should just walk out of jail,
though, so I guess I could accept life without parole.
It's not like the guy is going to walk the streets again.

Tammy

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clara T]

183. Everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did

was against the law. And don't suggest I am drawing any comparisons between Tookie and the Hungarian Freedom fighters. Justice and the law are very different things. Blind obedience to unjust laws is a sure route to fascism.

Laws are not laws. Each law is different from the other. Many laws are criminal in nature. Who writes the laws? Who tells who what to write in the law? Who's behind the curtain?

[thatsrightimirish]

173. Yes but,

The law also says that the Governor has the power to grant clemency. So, do you not like that law?

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KC_25]

217. There are a lot of laws that I do not like

...Patriot Act jumps to mind..

but clemency is for the governor to decide, and as much as I think that Tookie should get the needle, I would still hate to be the one to make the decision... Never mind the fact that Ah-nuld is in a lose lose situation here. He grants clemency he loses more Repubs, he doesn't he loses more centrist dems...

[thatsrightimirish]

182. i agree

It's not like I'm going to start a riot if he dies but I don't think there is anything wrong with putting public pressure on the governor to grant him clemency because we elected him and he serves us.

[G_j]

195. thank you for that CW

your post is what prompted me to put down some thoughts that have been troubling me for awhile. I've pretty much had it with some of these attitudes. Sometimes I think that if they all bolted to the Republican party I'd just say good riddance. :-(

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

201. Let him live.

Let him live, let him live, let him live!
I'm not sayin' forget or forgive.
If he's guilty of his crime,
Put him in jail for a long,long time,
But let him live, let him live, let him live.

I am firmly against the death penalty. It is an inhumane and barbaric practice, no matter how many people support it. I think the most cogent argument in this thread has been made by Mr. H2O: Even if you support the DP in principle, it is immoral to support it in a legal system that routinely incarcerates the innocent, and most probably has executed many innocent people. (I'm paraphrasing - please forgive me, H2OMan, if I overstate your case)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

204. If you can tell me any major crime that's been detered because....

...of the Death Penalty, then fine, let's go ahead and kill a man that's been nominated for the Nobel Prize six different times.

Yes, we "fucking get" your POV, too. Feel better now?

[CatWoman]

230. no, I'm still waiting for you to bring me another cup of coffee

just cream, no sugar }(

[meisje]

206. I could care less either way

[slybacon9]

218. damn you.

thems fightin words.

[KitchenWitch]

219. HMM - Tookiepalooza

Pope-apalooza
Schiavopalooza
etc etc etc

[Peter Frank]

223. Agreed...

Trinity says it all. ;)

[CatWoman]

231. LOLOLOLOLOL

The irony is, I lost poor Trin this summer.

She is somewhere in kitty heaven, laughing at all of us.

*I miss my kitty*

[Nimrod2005]

237. Good for you CatWoman, recommended!

[WinkyDink]

243. Not quite what "Tookiemania" implies.

But for sure, it has overwhelmed DU.
(I must have joined DU too late for the "Save John Wayne Gacy" threads.)

P.S. Villainous war-monger Henry Kissinger won a Nobel Peace Prize. It ain't what it used to be.