If you feel like celebrating the denial of clemency...

[WilliamPitt]

...can you please spare us all the huzzahs?

I don't care if you are really happy about it.

I don't care if you may want to post a celebration to stuff it in the face of people you've been arguing with.

Be you pro- or anti- death penalty, threads celebrating the impending death of another human being are ghoulish.

Further, they will only serve to further divide this community. They will only cause bedlam.

If causing bedlam, sadness, hard feelings and chaos is, in fact, what you desire, then consider yourself on my list of people whose opinions should not be counted among the sane and respectable.

Don't do it.

[myrna minx]

1. The morbid conga lines celebrating a state sponsored execution

chills me to the bone. :cry:

[degreesofgray]

27. I agree

I'm flabbergasted, sickened, and embarrassed by the gleeful bloodlust being expressed here today. Murderers should be punished, but by no means do I support the state murdering them in turn. I do not support killing people in order to teach people to stop killing people. It is pointless, inhumane, and insane.

[Nickster]

2. Well said Will.

[boston bean]

3. I feel ashamed for DU.

:cry:

[mod mom]

4. well said.

[Texasgal]

5. Mr. Pitt,

I am not happy and I am for the DP in most cases.

I am very sad that this has happened, but I am also sad about alot of things in this country.

I am in no way celebrating.

All I can hope for at this point is any person who thinks about committing a violent crime shall think about this case before acting.

Thank you for your post.

And to the rest of DU. Please do not lump all of the "pro-DP" people in one group. There are many of us who do not feel this as an act of celebration. To me, this is justice served, and justice sometimes is not pretty.

[incapsulated]

12. I'm against the DP

Totally and completely. But I don't like the attacks on DU'ers who disagree, either. I know this is an emotional issue, but every innocent civilian killed in Iraq is also a state sponsored murder. Why Tookie, of all people, gets this sort of attention is beyond me when actual innocents or mentally ill people are killed by the state.

I don't think enough people are aware of how many black folks support the death penalty, either. It is absurd to make these broad brush statements about people on this issue.

[bbinacan]

123. Agreed and I'm offended

that this Pitt guy acts so superior on this subject that he will not reply. Who is he and why does he seem to have some much power on DU?

[Kralizec]

140. Member of Truthout.org and DU Inner Circle Member. n/t

[Broken_Hero]

125. Yes, agreed....n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

128. And prove he's guilty

Prove it. There isn't enough evidence pointing to him. All it is is hearsay.

[Jed Dilligan]

142. Keep dreamin', gal

"All I can hope for at this point is any person who thinks about committing a violent crime shall think about this case before acting. "

[Mass]

6. well said

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

11. Yes. It is convienent that this happens to be an issue with only one side

Makes it easier to demonize people who disagree with you when you don't have to understand them.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ReadTomPaine]

18. Those are the smiling fathers of the DP movement.

And I understand them perfectly. Do you?

[bryant69]

23. Yes like i said; all people who disagree with you on this issue

must be ghouls and bastards.

It's a real timesaver because on other issues you have to take the time to understand the other persons point of view; but in this one you just know that if they were decent and intelligent people they would agree with you.

[ReadTomPaine]

35. I’m comfortable with that assessment of those whose celebrate ...

an execution.

Why aren’t you? Would that make you one of those who are smiling or not smiling in the photos above? I don’t deny your right to celebrate whatever you chose, but giving you a reminder of the company you will be keeping is my right, as well.

My eyes are as wide open as my mind, and I don't like what I see here on this issue. Your mileage may vary.

edit - spelling.

[bryant69]

38. Of course

Anybody who supports the death penalty must be celebrating, because, as noted above, they are ghouls and bastards. If they were decent people they would oppose the death penalty. Hence the must not be decent people. And everybody knows that indecent people love celebrating death.

So it follows, as night to day, that all those who do not oppose the death penalty are celebrating the death of Tookie.

[H2O Man]

42. You are twisting

what he said. "Anybody who supports the death penalty must be celebrating..." is a statement that belongs to you, not him. You might consider being accurate.

[bryant69]

48. I'm just following this logic through

I certainly didn't intend to offend anybody; I'm just saying that anybody who isn't opposed to the Death Penalty must be ghoulish monster, and should be treated as such- isn't that what this person (who posted teh pictures) is saying? Albeit in a different way.

[H2O Man]

52. RTP was clearly

directing the comments towards those who are gleeful about a man dying. The message in no way implies that all who favor capital punishment fit that description.

[bryant69]

57. I don't think it's clear at all; but if you do

That's fine.

I think this is one of those issues on which there is only one right answer; any deviation from that answer makes one a monster. Or at least that is the way people act.

There are plenty of issues like this.

[H2O Man]

56. dupe

[ReadTomPaine]

59. You are arguing with yourself..

and playing with straw men. More than half of your previous post is self referential. The OP and my reply are about the eagerness and delight so many take in executions, even here and now. But you already know that.

If you don't celebrate the DP, then this thread doesn't have anything for you to worry about defending. Standard Pro/Anti DP threads abound. It is perhaps revealing that this particular OP and those photos disturbed you enough to make you feel defensive, however.

[bryant69]

84. What do you think it reveals?

Just out of curiousity?

[ReadTomPaine]

91. That's for you to answer in the privacy of your own thoughts.

I won't speculate further, certainly not on a public forum.

[bryant69]

95. OK. That's very kind of you - I guess you really are a superior human

But of course, I will speculate on what you think it means; presumably something along the lines of "the lady doth protest to much." I'm upset that you would show those photos because secretly I like them and what they represent.

Am I warm?

[zanne]

135. We're trying to have a civilization here.

When you say "I guess you really are a superior human", you invite people to say, "Yes, he is probably a superior human".

[FreedomAngel82]

129. It's nothing more than legalized murder

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ReadTomPaine]

66. Since you have no clue..

about what I have or haven't done, your statement is more about defensive belligerence than making any sort of point. But since we are engaging in such behavior, it's likely i've given more time and money to progressive causes of this kind and others in the last twelve months than you have in the last five years. See? I can play mind reader too.

But please, keep shooting those messengers whenever they pop their heads up. More death to celebrate, even if just virtual ones.

[abbeyco]

74. I specifically asked what you did to help him out

but you cannot seem to answer that.

I'm thrilled that you have given time and money to these types of causes. I applaud someone, anyone who stands up for their cause.

However, you seem so firmly in Tookie's corner, so I've asked what you've done to help his cause. Did you do anything at all, other than pontificate from here? If you can't answer the question, then it naturally leads me to believe you've done nothing.

It's amazing to see here the number of people who are anti-DP because the Tookie issue is front and center. I didn't see this level or type of passion with the 1,000th execution a couple of weeks back.

[ReadTomPaine]

79. I answered it directly. Any more specific information is a private matter

... and none of your business. This has nothing to do with a singular inmate, it's a much larger issue. I have donated the same time and resources over this particular case that I always do in circumstances of this type, regardless of the individual involved.

You seem to have a specific axe to grind with those who support this man. That's your right, of course.. but your efforts toward me are misdirected. I am not one of those individuals.

If you are interested, do a search on my posting history over the years here at DU regarding the death penalty, and you'll see how consistent I am, "Tookie" or not.

[abbeyco]

85. Hmmm...quite an evasive answer - IMHO

My remarks started because of the photos you posted about people celebrating lynchings and such. What's going on in LA isn't a lynching and I don't see a lot of people celebrating what's going to eventually happen to him. I don't have an axe to grind with anyone - I'm just galled by all of the anti-DP blathering about this evil person who committed some heinous crimes. I'm sick that no one, for one minute is considering all of the victims of this bastard; only considering that we who are not upset by the impending execution as ghouls with some sort of blood lust.

Your photos were inflamatory at best. If it's your intention to call all of those who are not anti DP ghouls and whatnot, then just flat out speak your mind. Keep the inflamatory stuff out and have an honest argument/disagreement. The lynching and burning photos have nothing to do with the execution at hand.

[ReadTomPaine]

89. No answer will satisfy you, as you aren't here to debate.

Post 81 is pretty clear in showing how these are very relevant for this issue today and there are plenty of links downthread that feature such celebrations right here on Democratic Underground. Go and see for yourself.

The victims won't be served by another death. That's revenge and politics, bread and circuses for the living, and it's pretty sick. My statement about this couldn't be any more clear. The photos are supposed to upset you. They would upset anyone. So should celebration over any execution.

[MrMonk]

75. Is an execution by the state equal to a lynching by a mob?

Why have the men in your pictures been hung? Did they murder a number innocent people and encourage the murder of many more?

[ReadTomPaine]

81. Some are rapists, some are thieves and some are innocent.

Just like the current population of death row today. The punishment of death is the same as today also and don't fool yourself into thinking that the law wasn't involved directly in lynchings as late as the early 20th century. It's all quite familiar, right down to the people surrounding the bodies and the smiles on their faces.

It's a harsh reflection to be sure, but it's very much a mirror to today.

[ReadTomPaine]

104. .

[johnnie]

8. I just looked at the titles of threads

I don't see any celebrating this. I checked through the threads about this and see a handful of happy people but not even close to the ones who aren't happy.

I do however see a bunch of threads addressing these "happy" people. Am I missing the thousands of posts enjoying seeing this man's execution?

[Walt Starr]

9. Please, name one DUer who said they would celebrate

Just one.

[bettyellen]

14. or the DUer who offered to flip the switch.

Pretty much the same thing, if you ask me.

[Walt Starr]

19. Apples to oranges

And this level of crap directed at DUers who support the DP only serves to divide us further.

I support the DP, I would stick the needle in Tookie's arm and I would flip the switch to deliver the lethal injection. I would do this as I see it as the carrying out of justice.

That does not mean celebration. I am saddened we live in a world where monsters like Stanley Tookie Williams would perpetrate the heinous crimes that they do.

[bettyellen]

24. gosh, i'm sorry i don't shut up and support your troops, walt.

but i have my principles.
and the flip the switch stuff strikes me as BS macho posturing. not all that impressive or particularly meaningful, being it's not gonna happen.

[Puglover]

63. Well said Betty

what macho posturing bullshit...

Thank God for the ignore button. I'd accept it more if it was a boy under eighteen with his hormones raging...On a progressive board...please.

:eyes:

[zanne]

137. Yup.

Some of us seem to have testosterone poisoning lately.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stepnw1f]

49. Same...

My List Grows after today..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. I respectfully disagree.

Can't alert on an ignored post, y'know.

[sniffa]

116. what took so Long?

:P

[rmgustaf]

76. Knock it off...

I don't come to DU to read macho posturing where people get off on the killings of other human beings, regardless of their past actions.

DUers should be above such things.

I don't care where you fall on the death penalty debate - this kind of crassness gets you on my ignore list. :(

[Tomee450]

105. I would be very afraid

of someone who states he could kill another person. His willingness to execute would lead me to believe that he could become another Tookie. If he believed that he or his family had been severely wronged, his capacity to kill might manifest itself. If I discovered that my neighbor was a willing executioner, I'd be looking for another place to stay. That person, willing to kill, is a dangerous person, IMHO.

[slybacon9]

112. "I am saddened we live in a world where monsters like

... Stanley Tookie Williams would perpetrate the heinous crimes that they do."

Then why perpetuate it, Walt?

He killed somebody for whatever reason he thought was just.

And now you think it is ok to do the same?

That will stop it?

No...

because then you will be the monster.

[rman]

132. Aren't you glad the world gets rid of those 'monsters'?

So no, you did not actually mention the word "celebrate" in your posts regarding Tookie - what are you, a literalist?

[NorthernSpy]

141. I guess they just don't make tough guys like they used to...

I support the DP, I would stick the needle in Tookie's arm and I would flip the switch to deliver the lethal injection. I would do this as I see it as the carrying out of justice.

Oh sure -- if he were firmly tied down, and if you were promised anonymity and protection from any possible retaliation.

If you want to claim that you might be able to scrape together the nerve to press a button or two -- assuming the above conditions are satisfied -- then I'll take your word for it. Why not? It's not much of boast. Really, it sounds more like an admission of cowardice than anything else, and I have no reason to gainsay you on that score.

In the meantime, I'll just try to imagine a real tough guy -- one of those Celtic warriors of three thousand years ago, perhaps -- saying that he might be so bold as to flip the switch on a caged adversary. Under government protection, of course. Hee!

No, they certainly don't make tough guys like they used to.

[Dances with Cats]

114. I got a pretty lengthy list last night

of dick heads who said "I'D throw the switch."

[stepnw1f]

15. "...flip the switch"

Why even bother?

[WilliamPitt]

25. OK

"bye, bye....breathe deeply..."

"Walkin the mile...Nice to know that, once in a while; all the bullshit, all the publicists, all the propoganda, all the whining, and all the fakery cant get you out of what you had coming."

"They should televise the execution. And play it in every school as an object lesson. Think gangs are cool? Think hurting people is cool? How cool is this?"

Oh, sorry. That's three. Easy to find.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

64. You forgot one: "A monster will die tonight."

One of the most celebratory if you ask me.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

43. Another

"I say FUCK YOU AND DIE, TOOKIE!!!"

[Walt Starr]

107. I don't consider any of the things you've posted to be a celebration

but you are free to.

This issue has really opened my eyes to some DUers, though, that's for certain.

[mike_c]

90. come on, Walt-- and Rove didn't use Valerie Plames's name, either....

You've been beating the drum for Williams murder as hard as anyone. At least spare us the disengenuousness.

[Broken_Hero]

113. yeah, i agree...

I haven't seen any who said they would celebrate, in most threads i have read, the anti's are a solid two thirds, if not more, and the pro dPs are a solid quarter to 1/3 on just about each thread...give or take a thread or two....

But with, the impersonal atmosphere with the internet, I can see how people get differenent feelings/reactions to what people write to one another, and what nots, but anyways....

[mattclearing]

10. What kind of hateful person would do such a thing?

Is someone really celebrating?

[Aretha]

17. No one is celebrating

There's just a whole bunch of pre-emptive berating and people being "ashamed of DU" in advance. This holier-than-some fictional DUer thread and all of the people on all of the Tookie threads who have been rending clothes and gnashing teeth over the non-existant "celebrating" are pretty pathetic.

[bettyellen]

54. someone just said he's going straight to hell, fun playing god, isn't it?

[Aretha]

94. I think that people are entitled to their religious opinions

Personally, I don't think he's going to hell, but that's based on my religious views. Unless the person said that they, personally, are sending Williams to Hell, I don't see how they are "playing God."

[bettyellen]

96. i would say they support the notion of playing god, and judge others in a

way, according to my catholic upbringing, only god should- by emphatically stating that he is going to hell.
i'm agnostic now, but as far as i recall, the lord wasn't too big on us doing either of these things. Funny a person who believes in hell would choose to. :shrug:

[Aretha]

98. Like I said,

People can make pronouncements regarding their personal religious beliefs. If someone wants to say that, say, Rosa Parks is in heaven then, hey, I don't believe it but I don't object to them saying it. If they want to say that Fred Phelps will go to hell when he dies again, I don't think so but they're entitled to state their opinion and to also feel however they like about what the God that they belive in may or may not approve of.

[bettyellen]

99. it's just not a belief system i'm familiar with, so I question it...

and of course they are entitled to state their opinion, no one said otherwise.
just as i'm entitled to ask, wtf belief system is that, where you determine who goes to hell and who lives and dies?

[Aretha]

100. No one said that they are determining anything

They are merely stating an opinion as to what they think may or will happen. As for deciding who lives or dies, governments and communities have been doing that in one way or another for as long as there have been governments and communities. We condemn a certain number of people to death every time we raise a speed limit or decide that some safety barrier is just too expensive to build. We condemn some people to death to (hopefully) save more people when we make decisions regarding things like mandatory childhood innoculations. We know that some children every year will collapse and die in a gym class or on a football field but we still have gym and sports. And, of course, there's war and other decisions that governments make that directly affect who lives and who dies. That's not playing God. That's just life in a community.

[bettyellen]

101. that's such a stretch i have to laugh, people cross the street and die

because of it every day, so therefore i should have no concern about state sanctioned killing. because your roof might fall in and that was somehow intended by the people who built your house that this should happen some day? LOL. well, why bother looking both ways or having a housing inspection? death is inevitable, so let's roll with it!
you can take that leap, or any other, that floats your boat... :rofl:
and i can laugh my head off.
c ya.
:hi:

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aretha]

92. Angry?

Who said I was angry?

[Moochy]

26. Why a hateful democrat, of coursee

Don't get confused we have plenty of haters on our side, even people who don't realize how hateful they are. These executions give the green light for "Internet Tough guys" on our side to let loose with their hateful positions.

[mattclearing]

40. I'm actually going to have to ask for a link.

Please.

[Midlodemocrat]

41. Here.

Pretty awful stuff.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5579990

[Moochy]

45. You beat me to it,

Thanks for posting the same thread I was referencing!

[mattclearing]

50. Actually, I had to laugh at the thread title.

This one in particular looks like the worst offender so far.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5579990&mesg_id=5580362

[Midlodemocrat]

No kidding.

:scared:

That much anger isn't good for the blood pressure.

[foreigncorrespondent]

83. Just look around you...

...plenty of them are.

[stepnw1f]

13. Once Again...

very well said.

[Jersey Devil]

16. I have to admit I am ambivalent about the issue

It is probably the one major issue I have never been able to resolve in my mind with any certainty. While I feel that some crimes warrant the death penalty, like those Williams committed or those of New Jersey's infamous Thomas Trantino, I still have some hesitation approving the death penalty because of my fear that an innocent person can be executed through a miscarriage of justice.

On the other hand, after 26 years of appeals and God knows how many court hearings, if we are to have any confidence in our criminal justice system we must reach a point where there is finality in the process.

I have gone back and forth on the issue and really cannot say that I am sure one way or the other whether it is the right thing to do.

But you are right that even if you come down in favor of the death penalty it is certainly no cause for celebration.

[Miss Chybil]

110. I fall on the side of we - Us - the Executioners. I worry for our

well-being - our "souls." There has been many a criminal I have felt I could kill myself, but I fear the destruction it would bring to my inner-being to become the same as he. Murder is not an easy burden for good people to carry. My grandfather was murdered. When his killer was convicted we requested he not be given the death penalty. We didn't want his blood on our hands, nor did we want to burden the people who would have to kill him with his blood, either. So, while there are people who surely "deserve" to die, I, and my family, do not want to have to live with the consequences of having killed them. I think often of the book, "A Lesson Before Dying," when I ponder the death penalty question. Killing people is harmful to one's health - mentally, physically and spiritually - whether they deserve it, or not.

There is also, to me, something inherently wrong with imprisoning someone for 25 years, or so, and then killing him - or her. I doubt any of us, once we have reached middle-age, can look back on our lives and feel we are the same people we were at 18, or 20. We grow, we mature. Our values and morals tend to grow and mature, as well. We gain a little more sense. Unless, we are emotionally and spiritually stunted by drugs, or alcohol, we should in middle-age be different people in many ways than we were as teens, or young adults. This does not pardon, or excuse, horrendous actions taken by people in their younger lives, but when we execute them a quarter of a century later, we are not executing the same people who committed their crimes. On the other hand, their victims never saw another star, or heard another whisper and they had no more minutes in which to grow from the moment these killers decided to become killers. It is a painful situation - and then there is always the question - what if they are innocent? Who are we then to have killed them?

I would much rather clean our prisons of petty criminals to make room for people like Williams to serve out their time, alone, until the day they are taken by a power greater than myself. And, I would hope every day they would be visited only by the souls of their victims - be they asleep, or awake. To me, that is justice.

[oasis]

20. Recommended. The voice of reason is a DUer's best friend.

:thumbsup:

[MissB]

21. Thank you.

I find it to be incredibly poor taste to celebrate someone's death- whether that death comes from suicide, murder, poor health or government sponsored killing.

[H2O Man]

22. Thank you Will.

You are a good man.

[understandinglife]

28. The fact that any need exists for you to post this, Will, is truly sad.

Thank you for doing it, because obviously the reasons for doing so are abundant.


Peace.

[fishnfla]

29. Is it reasonable to ask just who is celebrating?

There are now a few threads accusing DUers of dancing about this. Yet I've not seen anyone celebrating.

I guess I reject your premise, sir

[bettyellen]

37. you missed all the posts with people using the beer toasting smilies?

i wish i hadn't seen them. but i'm not going to be baited into breaking the rules either.
look upthread, a few are quoted.

[ClayZ]

30. When will they ever learn?

Thanks for a voice of reason! I am sickend by the decision.

[Catchawave]

32. Thank you WilliamPitt...

I'm a centrist Dem who hates the death penalty, but despises cold blooded murderers more. It's a lose-lose situation for me :(

[Perky]

33. I wish the same sentiment was expressed more often on Bashing/Flaming po

sts.


It unkind, ill-mannered, and juvenile. We do not have to agree on much but we could at least be civil about it.

[Pithy Cherub]

34. The Words for the Day! Thanks Will!

Let people be known by words and deeds! All of them!

:toast:

[donheld]

39. How anyone could celebrate is beyond me

I've seen some really cold hearted statements that were hopefully an outcome of all the fury of debate. This case is just sad all the way around. I hope we can see some healing and maybe some closer can come to both sides of this debate. There were NO winners in this case.

[AzDar]

44. I don't feel that there's going to be any 'celebrating', at least I would

hope not....but isn't this a board where different views and/or opinions are to be respectfully considered?
I personally don't care for the death penalty; wish there were no need for it.
I also really don't like cold-blooded killers who shoot completely innocent people in the back multiple times.
I am very "in touch" with how I feel about those who take the lives of others, as my only nephew was brutally beaten and shot multiple times in 2001.He was 22 years old. The waste of skin who killed my beautiful nephew (and his girlfriend),received two life sentences without the possibility of parole, but had he received the death penalty that would have been just fine with me.
In my opinion,if one consciously chooses to commit such horrible acts upon another person, then there is a price to be paid.
Unfortunately, people often forget that Mr. Williams' victims were human beings who had lives and families who pay the price for HIS actions EVERY SINGLE DAY.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

46. Thanks, Will. I'm disgusted

by what I see here on DU, and I agree that a lot of it is just childish "my side won" yelping.

I understand that this is a big community, but I also thought this was a liberal site. I'm floored that so many pro-DP people here. I just can't grok that.

[Horse with no Name]

51. There is never cause for celebration when someone dies

I personally think that the bad things that Tookie did in his lifetime far outweigh the good.
However, with that being said, I do not support the death penalty.
There is a lot to be said for atonement.
It is a shame that he cannot continue down that path so that when he meets his maker he can show more good for his life than bad.
It is shameful that as a society we do not allow someone to teach us the goodness that they have in their instead of the wrong that they have done.
God rest your soul Tookie.

[sandnsea]

53. The denial is stunning too

The threads are out there right now, people are participating in them, then they come into this thread and pretend those other threads don't exist. :crazy:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. That, too, says volumes about the morals of the punishists.

Scum. Scum, all of them.

[jeffrey_X]

55. bravo

"There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then, a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullshit word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a shit."

[MrSlayer]

58. So Tookie is not ok to celebrate but Ronald Reagan was?

I seem to remember you and a host of others pissing and dancing on Reagan's grave after he went. Is it only ok to celebrate the deaths of those who are politically opposite of us because it doesn't cause sadness, hard feelings or division? (even though it kind of did) Or was Reagan not human? Were you acting "ghoulish"? Does that make you insane and unworthy of respect? I'm no Reagan fan by any means but you and a lot of others sure were gleeful that day.

Hell Will, you even took me to task because I said I wouldn't piss on his grave and found the joy in his death to be a bit disturbing.

Just saying.

[WilliamPitt]

60. I absolutely defy you

to find a thread where I celebrated Reagan's death. Or anyone else's death, for that matter. I flat fucking defy you to do it. I'll wait.

In the meantime, to refresh your memory, I will show you what I actually did write:

Ronald Reagan is dead now, and everyone is being nice to him. In every aspect, this is appropriate. He was a husband and a father, a beloved member of a family, and he will be missed by those he was close to. His death was long, slow and agonizing because of the Alzheimer's Disease which ruined him, one drop of lucidity at a time. My grandmother died ten years ago almost to the day because of this disease, and this disease took ten years to do its dirty, filthy, wretched work on her.

The dignity and candor of Reagan's farewell letter to the American people was as magnificent a departure from public life as any that has been seen in our history, but the ugly truth of his illness was that he lived on, and on, and on. His family and friends watched as he faded from the world of the real, as the simple dignity afforded to all life collapsed like loose sand behind his ever more vacant eyes. Only those who have seen Alzheimer's Disease invade a mind can know the truth of this. It is a cursed way to die.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/22/4757

DO NOT distort, twist or manufacture words from me to buttress your point. You will always, always fail.

[Jersey Devil]

62. Umm, something you forgot to tell him Will

The Eagles Suck!!

[MrSlayer]

77. So all that "But Ronald Reagan's still forgettin'" wasn't celebratory?

And then when I said I didn't hate him enough to dance on his grave you didn't angrily admonish me and recommend books that would change my opinion?

It sure came off as gleeful and celebratory to me.

But perhaps it wasn't you and for some reason I think it was. (nobody's perfect)

I guess I'll go back and see if I can find the threads in the archives and if it differs from how I remember it, you will have my full apology. I'm not too big to admit when I'm wrong.

[WilliamPitt]

78. I think you profoundly misremember

Once upon a time, I used to jump on people who *did* celebrate a death. Ultimately, I decided it was a waste of time. But the idea that I would admonish you for *not* celebrating his death is way out there. I didn't do that.

As for the Dean Blehert poem, yes, that could have seemed savage, and I do take your point. But the whole poem itself was not about attacking the man, but his effect upon our world. I will give you the last two verses:

Ronald Reagan is alive but forgetting things. If we can forget fast
enough, we will, at last, be able to live in the eternal present, having
no past nor future - 100% guilt-free, without plans, budgets, debts or
regrets. Someone will take care of us - maybe the Government, for hasn't
the Government always taken care of the People? Ronald Reagan, of course,
preached self-reliance, but Ronald Reagan probably isn't allowed to go for
a walk alone now lest he get confused - all those Pacific Palisades
mansions look pretty much alike.

Ronald Reagan is alive but forgetting things.
Soon we will forget Ronald Reagan. It is said that what we forget we must
repeat. We will forget Vietnam (he helped us) and have to do it again. We
will forget the Holocaust and have to do it again. We will forget slavery
and have to do it again. We will forget religious intolerance and racism
and ignorance and greed and cruelty and have to do them again. We will
forget ourselves and have to do them again. We will even forget forgetting
and have to forget again. And so we will have to do Ronald Reagan again.
He will die and be forgotten, but when we need him, once again Ronald
Reagan will be alive for us, forgetting things.

Blegert himself explained his point:

http://www.blehert.com/essays/onforgetting.html

[MrSlayer]

82. Yes, I see what you are saying.

But you did "yell" at me. Heh.

Here is the exchange.

Me: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1722410&mesg_id=1722515

You: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1722410&mesg_id=1722530

Me again: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1722410&mesg_id=1722576

Full thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1722410

I still have to grab those books.

[WilliamPitt]

87. I guess I have to eat that one

My point, I think, was to bat down what I saw as some "He wasn't so bad" sentiments. But you're right. I tagged you when I should not have.

[Dorian Gray]

138. There was some celebrating

during the Reagan death, but there were also many posters who were disgusted and outraged at the level of crudeness shown during that time, as well.

As per Tookie, I hope that he can find peace in death. I will pray for his soul. I don't presume to know the state of his soul at his death, but I hope that he had found peace at the end.

[im10ashus]

61. Agreed!

It's very disturbing. Whether you agree with the DP or not, celebrating a person's death is not the behavior I would expect on DU. Just my opinion.

[Beelzebud]

65. I think Tookie is a horrible man. He ruined lives and families forever.

That being said.

I am 100% AGAINST the death penalty. For ANYONE.

We have executed innocent people. One innocent person executed is reason enough for me to get rid of it for good.

Not too mention that we are the ONLY western nation that still has capitol punishment.

The ony other countries that do that are 3rd world countries with dictators for leaders.

68. Yes, we should NOT be reveling in this n/t

[Lex]

70. The Death Penalty has always said more about the 'non-criminals'

than the 'criminals' anyway.

And how a person reacts (even when they support the Death Penalty) tells you a lot about their humanity.

[Stand and Fight]

71. Recommended!

I could not agree more.

[Nye Bevan]

72. I am basically against the death penalty

but the anti-DP lobby needs to pick better poster boys. Reading about the crimes of scum like Tookie makes me think (in spite of myself) that sompe people deserve execution.

For an absolutely outrageous example of a truly innocent death row inmate, google "Cory Maye"-- an innocent black man on death row in Mississippi. This is the kind of case that could really turn people against the death penalty.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/10/20854/628

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/025962.php#025962

[Bridget Burke]

73. I understand that some people support the Death Penalty.

But the gloating & celebration on Those Other Threads are disgusting.

--From Texas, where millionaires can murder & walk free. Where Bush Jr set records in executions. He actually saved one prisoner from Death Row. Henry Lee Lucas died naturally in prison because his death sentence was commuted.

[LawDem]

80. A few words from a somewhat similar case long ago

Clarence Darrow's closing argument in the Leopold & Loeb case, another hideous murder:

"The cruel and the thoughtless will approve. It will be easy today; but in Chicago, and reaching out over the length and breadth of the land, more and more fathers and mothers, the humane, the kind, and the hopeful, who are gaining an understanding and asking questions not only about these poor boys but about their own, these will join in no acclaim at the death of my clients. But, Your Honor, what they shall ask may not count. I know the easy way. I know Your Honor stands between the future and the past. I know the future is with me, and what I stand for here; not merely for the lives of these two unfortunate lads, but for all boys and all girls; for all of the young, and as far as possible, for all of the old. I am pleading for life, understanding, charity, kindness, and the infinite mercy that considers all. I am pleading that we overcome cruelty with kindness and hatred with love. I know the future is on my side. Your Honor stands between the past and the future. You may hang these boys; you may hang them, by the neck until they are dead. But in doing it you will turn your face toward the past. In doing it you are making it harder for every other boy who in ignorance and darkness must grope his way through the mazes which only childhood knows. In doing it you will make it harder for unborn children. You may save them and make it easier for every child that some time may stand where these boys stand. You will make it easier for every human being with an aspiration and a vision and a hope and a fate. I am pleading for the future; I am pleading for a time when hatred and cruelty will not control the hearts of men. When we can learn by, reason and judgment and understanding and faith that all life is worth saving, and that mercy is the highest attribute of man."

(later in Darrow's argument)

"I was reading last night of the aspiration of the old Persian poet, Omar Khayyam. It appealed to me as the highest that can vision. I wish it was in my heart, and I wish it was in the hearts of all:

"So I be written in the Book of Love,
Do not care about that Book above.
Erase my name or write it as you will,
So I be written in the Book of Love."

[Fescue4u]

88. Fully agree

I find the denial of clemency the correct and just decision.

But it still sad. Sad that a human life is being wasted.

Tookie had amazing potential. Truly a born leader.

He could have done such great things for humanity.

Tonight will mark the end of sad chapter. But it was Tookie who choose this end not any of us.

[bonito]

93. Thanks

Such thoughts are needed and welcomed. Peace

[Jacobin]

97. The state has no business killing its citizens

China, Iran and the U.S. are the biggest killers of its own citizens through the criminal 'justice' system.

The U.S. wouldn't be able to join the EU because the death penalty. Abolition of the death penalty is considered world wide to be a step away from the barbarism that has plagued nations

Its an outmoded, barbaric, racially biased ghoulish business.

[watrwefitinfor]

102. Progressive?

Well said, Will Pitt. You speak for most of us here on this subject. I have to believe that.

This site is put forward as a "progressive" place - DU. How can anyone with the slightest knowledge of the history of this country possibly consider themself a progressive, and still support the death penalty? Especially when it is applied to black people. And that does not come from any sort of exceptionalism, or any kind of guilt. Just the simple and basic understanding that this society historically (and still) has denied opportunity, and then justice, to all poor people; and notably to almost all people of color.

Is death row full of millionaires like Simpson or well known public figures like Blake? Is it full of mass murderers like McNamara and Bush? Or is it full of people who have been denied the basic rights (social, economic, etc.) that should accrue to everyone in a modern democratic society? And have they been denied the basic justice that the constitution would have us expect for everyone?

I don't care a fig about Tookie. I saw the movie, and I was unmoved. (Though I must say I wonder about what kind of message killing him sends to the potential gang members he was trying to reach out to.)

I don't even have any particular moral disagreement with the death penalty in heinous cases, WHEN everyone starts out on the same economic rung of the ladder, and WHEN everyone has access to the best justice money can buy and the constitution guarantees. In the meantime, anyone supporting the death penalty as applied in the United States is supporting one of the most backward, unequal, unjust, racist, and barbaric features of a government that is run by the same people who brought you the invasion of Iraq, the overthrow of democracy in California and Texas and other places, the outsourcing of jobs and health insurance, etc. etc. etc. And yes, the same government that stood back and allowed lynching (and perhaps still does in some dark, secret parts of the hinterlands).

If that is who you are, that is certainly your affair, and you are certainly free to enjoy, ejaculate, or whatever celebratory activity you choose to indulge in over it.

My question to you is, what the hell are you doing on DU? And why do I get the feeling you are the same people who I remember seeing out here screaming for "the right to life" during the Schiavo business and whenever abortion is discussed? The same ones who seem to pop up on DU whenever there is any sport to be had by maligning progressives? On a progressive forum!

Stand back and flame away, or delete it if warranted. I will not be responding to any of the bitter attacks I see in my future. I said what I have to say.

Wat

[Parche]

103. Respect

We should also say, do not riot
that will not help anyone or anything

As this should not be happening tonight,so Tookie should not have murdered 4people

[NightOwwl]

106. So, people whose point of view differs from yours should shut up?

Fortunately this is a forum where all points of view can be posted.

"Ignore" button works well if you don't like the threads.

[Maraya1969]

108. This is what is wrong with the death penalty. Besides the utter

hypocrisy and the barbarism of it all the people who suffer the most are the family and friends and they are innocent.

Think of the children who have known that their father would die that night at 12am

Think of the mothers who have known their child was going to did that night at 2am.

Think of the fathers who have known their daughters or sons were going to die that night at 2am..


It is cruel and unusual punishment for the families, the lawyers and for everyone around the person.

And this last denial of clemency is causing grief for millions of people. And we did not brake any law. I am feeling ill right now thinking that a person I know, if only through the media and by signing a petition to save his life;; is going to be killed tonight.

I am suffering. Many of us are suffering.

Why do we have to suffer?

[Beam Me Up]

109. Thank you. n/t

[alittlelark]

111. I just got done listening to a 'Flashpoints' interview w/him.

It was pre-recorded a few days ago. He spent almost all of the interview talking about HOW to talk to gang members, and how to keep kids out of them in the first place.

This execution is a travesty. The DP is a racist travesty. The rest of the civilized world understands that the DP is immoral - why can't so many here understand?

[Quixote1818]

115. Your compassion made me cry and gives me hope for humanity

This is a very sad night. :cry:

[ulysses]

117. I'd rather see the celebrations, Will.

The last couple of days have been eye-openers. I want to know who the bloodthirsty among us are.

[bbinacan]

118. Excuse me but I have a right

to an opinion. Sorry if I express it. You think I shouldn't? He killed 4 people. I happen to think life in prison is worse than death, but I will shed no tears on his execution. So, spare me your lecture. Yes I'm in a bad mood.

[Raydawg1234]

119. Do you guys celebrate every time somone is executed!

[Raydawg1234]

120. Everytime a prisoner is executed, a Republican gets it's Horns!

[Deja Q]

121. Divisive; I've been saying that too. Bigger issues to deal with, of which

the death penalty is a symptom.

Can't do shit with symptoms until the problems are fixed.

This isn't about Tookie. It's more about the conditions that led him to murder in the first place. In that regard, I have more pity than you can possibly imagine.

And I am celebrating NOTHING. The whole issue is disgusting. Few of us, here and now, are celebrating as if it's 1999. And I don't see why you think so many are. THAT is disgusting too.

And I wish he never killed in the first place.

[bbinacan]

122. I take offense here

You said

"Be you pro- or anti- death penalty, threads celebrating the impending death of another human being are ghoulish.

Further, they will only serve to further divide this community. They will only cause bedlam.

If causing bedlam, sadness, hard feelings and chaos is, in fact, what you desire, then consider yourself on my list of people whose opinions should not be counted among the sane and respectable.

Don't do it."

So I'm not sane and respectable because I don't always toe your line? I beg to differ and you should respect my opinion. You will not dictate mine.

[Bridget Burke]

139. So you WANT to celebrate this death?

"Ghoulish" is a pretty good word. Some fairly decent people support the death penalty. But I am one of the many who will NEVER respect ghouls.

Will Pitt does not dictate. He writes.

[bbinacan]

143. No I don't celebrate it and

in general I'm not a big fan of the DP. In this case, I feel it was justified.

[woo me with science]

124. oh please.

spare us the sanctimony and the disingenuous characterization of people who disagree with you. i see people defending justice. i am much more likely to throw up at the threads that describe this monster as some type of martyr. don't even go here--this sort of cheap argument should be beneath you.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

126. Thanks, Will!

I needed that - gods I am exhausted from reading all this hyper-emotional rhetoric!

[FreedomAngel82]

127. If someone is pro-death penalty they are just murders too!

[eleny]

130. Thanks, Will

[hippywife]

131. What is the difference, I ask?

What is the difference between a man who committed a terrible crime, and not only repented but made the all out effort to effect positive change, and the man who works for and gives to progressive causes to make the world a better place, yet says he would flip the switch himself to take the life of the first man?

Sometimes living with our own failures can be punishment enough.

[Douglas Carpenter]

133. thank you -- well said

[killbotfactory]

134. The anti-gang units in LA are notoriously corrupt

I don't see how anybody could be so certain that he deserves death, to the point of celebrating.

[ComerPerro]

136. Why would anyone be happy about it?

except for maybe the victim's families.

Otherwise, I can't understand why anyone would care enough to celebrate it...