Honestly, who has done more damage, Stanley Williams, or Ken Lay?

[Tim4319]

Don't get me wrong! The murder of 4 people (if he is truly guilty) is a horrible thing. I could never imagine what it would feel like to loose 4 members of my family in a senseless murder. But, who has done more damage than the big businesses that has ruin entire families by stealing their pensions. Where's the outrage here? Where are the interviews of the wives, husbands and children of the employees who has been working for over twenty years with nothing to show?

[nini]

1. Oranges and apples

Loss of life doesn't compare to what Lay did - which is pretty shitty in itself.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

6. OK, then

Let's do apples to apples: who's killed more people? Williams or Bush?

One guy's getting the death penalty.

Quick! Guess which one's white!

Didn't mean to be snarky. Apologies in advance.

[Tim4319]

10. That's and even better comparison.

[lapfog_1]

8. That's an interesting statement

"Loss of life doesn't compare to what Ken Lay did..." I can read that two ways. One, which I think you intended, is
that Ken stole billions of dollars, but Stanley probably killed 4 people, and murder is so much more serious a crime.
But the way I read it, Ken is guilty of a far greater crime than some gangsta type who probably killed 4 people.
Ken possibly killed hundreds if not thousands. Starting with some of Enrons projects in South America. And then
there was the "gaming" of the CA energy market which created blackouts all over the state (funny, we don't have
these anymore now... I wonder why?). I know that there were a number of deaths attributed to the blackouts.

In a way, Ken is killing Tookie too. If it weren't for Enron and the gaming of the CA energy markets, we never would
have recalled Grey Davis. If Davis was still in, he probably would have commuted the sentence (or maybe not, we will
never know now).

[Tim4319]

11. My point exactly!

[nini]

12. Well, I interpreted it to be the pension and didn't delve deeper

that's what I answered. I stand by initial answer that 4 murders and the creation of a ruthless gang did more harm.

Do I think Ken Lay shouldn't be rotting in jail and running around free? Hell No.


I'm not so sure Davis would have granted clemency either. He would have been more likely to, but I wouldn't bet that either way.

[Occulus]

19. But didn't Lay actually cause loss of life?

By his actions?

[lapfog_1]

24. Yes, his company did cause a number of deaths

but mostly in South America and possibly India, and possibly a few poor people here.
so... he didn't grab a shotgun and shoot people so I guess a few years at a club fed is
all he gets.

Folks, don't ever pull a gun and rob a 7-11...
get a computer and commit real fraud and try to steal millions (or better, sell your stock
options illegally after you pump it up... aka pump and dump), you will likely never spend
a day in jail, and who knows, someday you too can be Pretzeldent.

[Journeyman]

2. Remember, he founded the Crips. . .

and that's a gift that just keeps on taking.

[GrumpyGreg]

4. Now they're saying he didn't found the Crips.

[Journeyman]

9. Unaware of that. . .

truly unaware of most of the man's life (though I thought I read he had something to do with creation of the Crips) . . . be that as it may, I moved from my childhood hometown in part because of incursion by the Crips and Bloods. If he had anything to do with that madness he has a heavy burden for which to account . . .

[AndreaCG]

26. Agreed

[fortyfeetunder]

15. But are we executing Williams for being a Crips co-founder?

That's the message I get in the undercurrent of posts here.
Not just a murderer but a gang co-founder. Some posters did suggest such.

The bloodlust is "yay, we cut off the head of the snake"

No, not exactly. We had gangs before Crips. IIRC, Williams said he started the Crips to evade some gang terrorism in his community. And gangs will continue to exist after Mr. Williams takes his last breath.

[Journeyman]

25. My post did not support Mr Williams execution. . .

let alone advocate it because of this particular act in his life. The OP asked who was worse: Williams or Lay, then compared Mr William's four murders to the corporate crimes of Ken Lay. I merely pointed out that, in a consideration of which person has done the most damage to society, concentrating on the limited behavior of Mr William's four murders while expounding on the range of Mr Lay's corporate malfeasance is disingenuous. This most especially so, given that Mr Lay has yet to be tried for his crimes.

[gulfcoastliberal]

3. Neither. The "Financial Services Modernization Act" is the deregulation

that spawned the Enrons, Worldcoms and Citigroups that enabled those criminal schemes.

[Walt Starr]

5. Although Lay has done a lot of damage

I'd say Williams has done far more damage hands down.

[fortyfeetunder]

16. Walt, explain this one...

In what ways has Williams done more damage than Ken Lay:

Socially?
Economically?
Politically?

[mitchum]

7. I have no problem with a gurney for Lay...

they do have more than one available, y'know.

[AntiCoup2K4]

13. Ken Lay isn't a valid comparison

As vile of a shitbag as he may be, the only murder you can hold him accountable for, is the ENRON guy who "committed suicide" shortly after the company went bankrupt.

However, this being December 12 and all, I would suggest you look at the 5 appointees of the Bush Criminal Empire on the Supreme Court who took a shit on Democracy and this country that day.

Every death of 9-11-01

Every death in Iraq

Every death in Afghanistan

Every death due to the gross negligence in Hurricane Katrina

All can be laid directly at the feet of those 5 treasonous pieces of shit, and the criminals they placed in the White House against the vote of the American people. And they make Tookie Williams look like a fucking amateur by comparison.

[NI4NI]

14. or how about Sammy "The Bull" Gravano

[MrSlayer]

18. Yeah, Sammy Bull killed 18 people.

And he got to WALK, not just avoiding the DP but actually was released. That's some fucked up shit right there. Walking on 18 pre-meditated, contract homicides is fucking insane.

[MrSlayer]

17. An appropriate punishment for Kenny Boy.

Strip him of all wealth and force him to live and work in Tookie's old neighborhood and let everyone know who he is. Things will sort themselves out.

[Fescue4u]

20. Clearly Stanley Williams

He and his gang have destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people.

Ken Lay, has destroyed the financial well being of tens of thousands.

Neither is exactly a poster child...But at least Ken Lays victims are still alive.

[eridani]

21. Except for some of the ones who couldn't pay their utility bills n/t

[Fescue4u]

22. Utility collection departments can be tough

But they generally don't shoot their customers.

[eridani]

23. But if they turn off the heat or the electricity-

--people have been known to freeze or bake to death.