for people who are "giving up" because of election fraud, please wait

[LSK]

At least wait until after 2006. Please donate and fight until at least that election.

We have all of this going for us:

- Numerous States are passing laws declaring votes must have paper trails.

- A DNC under Howard Dean has NEVER been in a full National Election yet. He is organizing in 50 states. GIVE HIM A CHANCE.

- The elections in 2005

- Air America Radio is a voice out there that WE HAVE NEVER HAD.

- Bush's poll #s are in the toilet

- Iraq will not improve and public opinion will only get worse

- Katrina

- Fitzgerald and Plamegate

- Abramoff and NUMEROUS Republican investigates

- Diebold is not in every state and county

I would wait AT LEAST until after 2006 to give up. We have too much momentum to give up. You ignore a lot of stuff in our favor. We only need the House or the Senate.

[Cleita]

1. Good post. Thanks for reminding us that not all is lost yet.n/t

[electropop]

34. Thanks, LSK.

Sometimes we need some cheering up.

[babylonsister]

2. We cannot afford to give up. We all have a lot riding on this. nt

[mzmolly]

3. People should also note that DEMOCRATS are fighting for election reform!

Egadz, the idea that we should help Republicans by not donating to the DNC is outrageous!

:dunce:

[mzmolly]

5. Furthermore Dean doesn't have diddly squat to do with legislation!

:hi:

[SnoopDog]

4. Yes, good post...But my question remains....

What do we do when, magically, the Republicans retain control of Congress.

I really would like to know what direction we should all take.

If the Repubs do win, then we know for a fact that our election system is compromised - and our democracy is dead.

[mzmolly]

6. There are numerous pieces of legislation in the works TODAY in both the

house and the senate.

People who say Democrats are not fighting are misinformed and often misinform others.

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/article.php?list=type&type=43

The only way Democrats can "fight" is via the democratic process and that is exactly what we are doing. To suggest that we withhold money from those who are fighting for change is "looney" to say the least.

:hi:

[SnoopDog]

10. I am not sure, but

did you post your message to mine by mistake?

I never stated that Dems are not fighting or to withhold money...

Independent of all this, I feel we should have a contingency plan - what do we do when, magically, the Repubs retain control....

[mzmolly]

11. They can't magically retain control if proper legislation is in place

before 2006.

I attempted to answer your question and the question of others who are not aware of the fact that Democrats are addressing this issue.

Also, Diebold is not "everywhere" so I think they might have a difficult time controlling the number of elections involved in 06?

As for a contingency plan - it's difficult to have one when the "proof" is "poof."

The only thing we can do IMHO is fight on the front end.

[LSK]

12. why not worry about that AFTER 2006

If we win then the doubters are proven wrong. If we loose in 2006, then who knows what. But why not work and fight for 2006?

[SnoopDog]

14. Who says I/we are not fighting for valid elections?

As just one person I do as much as I can for our Democracy.

It would be smart to have contingency plans if 2006 proves election fraud. We have 11 months to plan in advance - to wait until Nov gives these bastards in office more time to stop our legal process.

Do we just say "oh, poop, they stole another election - should we do something?"

[ellenfl]

22. IF there is no fraud in 2006 (and that's a BIG if),

we must make sure that all relevant election legislation goes forward so the fraud is not repeated in 2008. let's not be lulled into complacency.

florida is constitutionally required to re-count the votes if the results are as close as they were in 2000. however, i don't believe that was emphasized enough in 2000 . . . thanks in part to jebbie and the harris harpy. i don't think the fla democratic committee will overlook that again . . . at least i hope not. that may be why the cabal chose ohio to make dubya president in 2004. after all, they couldn't pull the old sc trick in two elections in a row.

we also need to be sure that the ultimate swing state does not have an election official that doubles as the state campaign manager for the candidate. katherine harris and ken blackwell taught us that.

these next elections should be well watched and, if we win, we must not let down our guard. we know only too well the lengths that the 'moral' majority will go to regain absolute power.

ellen fl

[MissWaverly]

16. If David Brooks said the Repugs are losing the house next year

then you can bank on it, he's the GOP cheerleader.

[SnoopDog]

18. I hope you are right...

But I never 'bank' on anything subject to so much corruption.

These bastards boast about their cheating and corruption.

They must think that they will always win.

So, I say, we have a contingency plan. One where all of America stands up and says "no, this is not legit and we will not put up with it".

[MissWaverly]

36. we have had corruption before with politicians, this is different

these people, many of whom are inexperienced politically, publicly acknowleddge they were asleep at the wheel, this is not going to fly with the American people.

[Road Scholar]

7. Thanks for the encouragement.

Last November's election was a "Bad Day at Black Rock." I don't think I'll ever forget the disappointment, but I worry about some who were devastated. Please keep up the positive outlook, and encouragement.I don't think I need it, but a lot of folks sure do. Who and what motivates leaders like you (and maybe me too)?


:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

[European Socialist]

8. one more thing--pukes can only dare cheat on close contests.

[Zan_of_Texas]

15. It's not true that cheating will only work on close contests.

See, for example, what happened to four election reform initiatives in the state of Ohio recently. There were unexplained swings from polls to election tallies of 20 to 40%. The pre-election polls were done by the Columbus Dispatch, which is such a respected pollster that journal articles are done about their techniques, put forward as an example for other pollsters.

Bob Fitrakis has written about this at www.freepress.org

Ohio's Diebold Debacle: New machines call election results into question

by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman
November 24, 2005

Oped News
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_bob_fitr_051125_ohio_s_diebold_debac.htm

...

The Dispatch mail-in poll was completed on Thursday Nov. 3, just prior to Election Day. The Dispatch poll is so accurate, that at least two academic studies have been published about it in the Public Opinion Quarterly (POQ). The first paper documents that the Dispatch poll between 1980-1984 was far more accurate than telephone polling. The study showed the Dispatch error rate at only 1.6 percentage points versus phone error rates of 5%. A companion study published in POQ in 2000 dealt specifically with the question of statewide referenda. A quote from the study: "The average error for the Dispatch forecast of these referenda was 5.4 percentage points, compared to 7.2 percentage points for the telephone surveys."

The academic study concluded that the Dispatch's mail survey outperformed telephone surveys for both referenda and candidate's races.

The fact that the Dispatch was nearly 30 points off in predicting the "YES" vote on Issue 3 should raise concerns.

...

Or, check out Bob Koehler. {underlines added for clarity}

POLL SHOCK

By Robert C. Koehler

Tribune Media Services
For release 11/24/05

http://www.tmsfeatures.com/tmsfeatures/subcategory.jsp?custid=67&catid=1824


One of the most wildly inaccurate pre-election polls in memory, which was off by over 40 points on some predictions, may prove to be deadly accurate as an indicator of the problems we face as a nation with our voting process - and democracy itself.

But you won't learn this by reading the Columbus Dispatch, the newspaper that conducted the poll just prior to Ohio's Nov. 8 election. The paper's public affairs editor conceded to me that the poll results the Dispatch wrote about, wrongly indicating massive public support for several proposed constitutional amendments, were, in essence, the journalistic equivalent of the explosion of the space shuttle Challenger.

{snip}

Issue 2 would have made absentee voting easier in the state. It had lots of high-profile support, and the Dispatch poll predicted a cakewalk for it:

59 percent yes, 33 percent no, 9 percent undecided.

The actual result:
36 percent yes, a whopping 63 percent no.

Then there was issue 3, which would have lowered the campaign-contribution limits that a lame-duck state legislature had raised a year ago.

Prediction:
61 percent yes, 25 percent no, 14 percent undecided.

Actual result:
33 percent yes, 66 percent no.


more

[shanti]

31. so they're basically

flipping the results with a margin of error. nice....:grr:

[electropop]

35. Self Delete

[mzmolly]

9. Also, Democrats ARE tackling election fraud !!!

See the link below for current legislation under consideration:

http://verifiedvoting.org/article.php?list=type&type=43

It is foolish to suggest people stop donating when we are so close to making the changes needed to take back our democracy.

Thanks LSK! :hi:

[lonestarnot]

13. You've got to be fucking kidding me? Me? Give up? NEVER!

[helderheid]

17. I live in Utah AND have Diebold.... but I will still vote... ABSENTEE.

[skipos]

19. Hey! What about 05? CA, NJ and VA? nt

[LSK]

20. yes n/t

[dweller]

21. give up?

i'll personally take my 8lb mini-sledge to the machines before i give up.

for that matter, anyone else ready to toss the machines in the harbor in broken bits, it's high time to organize.

NGU

dp

ps. :hi: agent Mikey. Get a life !

[mzmolly]

23. Please recommend this thread guys. The counter thread had several

recommendations.

Thanks!

:yourock:

[kansasblue]

24. -Dean recorded a hacking program with Bev Harris... he knows!

[Time for change]

25. I haven't heard about any DUers giving up because of election fraud

Am I missing something?

Many of us take different approaches.

Some people spend a lot of time trying to investigate and expose the 2004 election.

Others work on election reform without making reference to 2004 or any past elections.

And others work on other ways of winning in 06 and 08.

But I don't know of anyone who's giving up. And certainly I don't know of anyone who's giving up because of election fraud.

[Stevepol]

37. Don't confuse the stating of facts with giving up.

Just because I state the facts about the discrepancy between the exit polls and the electronic voting machine results, doesn't mean I'm counseling despair.

Just because I note the 40% point flip in OH on the recent initiatives vote doesn't mean I'm being hopeless.

Just because I point out the stolen elections in GA, MN, CO in 02 doesn't mean I'm giving up.

I'm not going to stop stating the facts as I understand them or stating more facts as I become aware of them.

I plan to vote in the elections, probably absentee, not because I think it will have much effect (tho it might for the reasons the originator of this thread has pointed out) but because I'm doing it for myself. I believe in democracy even tho I don't believe we have a democracy at present. I'm doing it for myself.

Mark Crispin Miller said recently the reason he's working so hard on this issue is because he couldn't live with himself if he didn't.

That's pretty close to what I feel and probably how others feel who are aware of the issue and working hard to change it and restore democracy.

[Time for change]

38. Yes, I feel the same way about it --

and I think that probably almost anyone well informed enough to know of the serious election problems we're facing feels pretty much the same way about it. I have not met anyone who feels that the problems with our election system will prevent him/her from voting, and I believe that such people are very rare.

In fact just the opposite. I believe that the much higher turnout in 2004 compared to 2000 was largely the result of the feeling that the 2000 election was stolen.

[jarnocan]

26. DO something! Russ Holt's petition Letter!!!! re: Verified Voting PLEASE!

http://vvlobbydays.blogspot.com or direct here. Lots of good information too

http://www.rushholt.com/petition.html#sign the repub leadership is keeping it off the 'floor'

[pat_k]

27. Kick up the pressure: No Secret Voting Counting! No way! No how!

You can't win if you don't fight. Kick up the pressure.

Call public interest groups daily. Call lawmakers. Ask your friends to do the same.

Keep it SIMPLE:

I don't want to vote on a machine!
I don't trust them!
Secret vote counting is wrong.
What are you going to do about it!!!???

[kster]

28. The silence on the vote issue is just unbelievable

we have them surrounded with the election theft story, but still nothing from the honest Dem's and Republicans in our country. I mean the honest people in the Gov could talk about the machines having a big security flaw that they are going to fix, without pointing fingers at anyone about the past.

But silence, thats what I don't get. I can understand that they may not want to blurt it out on national TV that the elections where being rigged, for fear of startling the people that don't have a clue about it.

But come on they could certainly say that we (THE GOVERNMENT) are going to look at the problems in the electronic voting machines and then fix it THE RIGHT WAY. No one would be startled and we would get fair elections, But Silence. I will probably vote, but I'll be one pissed off voter,this time.

[No Exit]

29. AND... Diebold is IMPLODING!!!!!!!!

[farmboxer]

30. Yes, good post! I will vote if I have to crawl all the way

to the polls!!!!!!!!!!!

Republicans do not want us to vote, but if enough of us do, we can beat the machines!!! We also should have exit polls monitored by Europeans, perhaps Ukraine also!!!! They know what vote fraud is like!!!!

[eridani]

32. Nobody is "giving up"

Fraud is one of the largest motivators to fight for change.

[liberalla]

33. Recommended! and...

As another layer of protection against election theft, we should have independent, "we the people" sponsored polls that we can use to challenge any strange election results.