Bush was spying on a Catholic group that promotes antipoverty efforts

[NNN0LHI]

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=58538

FBI Acknowledges Spying on American Citizens and Domestic Organizations

The New York Times yesterday revealed that the Bush Administration has been abusing its authority to spy on domestic organizations. According to the New York Times, among the groups being monitored by FBI agents were a Catholic Workers group that promotes antipoverty efforts and social causes, a meeting of Quakers, and PETA. A top FBI official reportedly justified spying on these groups by saying that environmental and animal rights groups, not Al Qaida, "posed the biggest terrorist threats in the United States." (New York Times, 12/20/05)


That sure doesn't sound like Al Qaida to me.

[rodeodance]

1. hope the Pope gets on his case!

[lvx35]

4. Me too. Except for the gay thing, Benedict is batting a good game.

Came out against the war in Iraq, etc. It would be nice to see a guy who knows a thing or two about authoritarian states (Benedict was forced by law to join Hitler youth as a child) show he learned the lessons by standing up to authoritarian tactics now!

[RB TexLa]

6. Did you see his comments on the French riots?

Said that France has to do a better job of integrating immigrants into society and realizing and embracing their contributions to the French economy and culture. Said it went for all of Europe. Didn't know if I was going to have as many proud moments with him.

[lvx35]

8. Nice! n/t

[nofurylike]

10. "the gay thing"? millions of shattered, trashed, vital lives "thing"? spit

[lvx35]

16. What are you talking about?

millions of gay lives shattered and trashed because they could not join seminary and study to become celebate catholic priests?

[nofurylike]

28. you really think that's the extent of his "gay thing"? and if so, why

didn't you specify that little tiny bit of his "gay thing"?

the man rules hundreds of millions of people's lives, and whole countries, levelling his "gay thing."

he crushes millions of young, innocent, vital lives forever, but he's okay other than that?

nevermind.


peace

[Bridget Burke]

32. Sorry, the Catholic Church hasn't ruled any countries in a long time.

How, exactly, has he crushed millions of lives forever?

[nofurylike]

33. i recommend your learning more about that. my comment was because

"his gay thing" was a callous comment - callous to the countless lives destroyed.

are you even ware of the persecution of lesbians, gays, transgenders, two-spirits, bisexuals, and so on. tortured, beaten, murdered, executed, all possible hopes and dreams obliterated? the worst cause of that: religious dominance and oppression.

imagine if someone said "his jew/black/... thing" about certain other people who've viciously wielded inordinate power over entire cultures.

it's up to you to care about your own consciousness. please expand it.

thank you


peace

ps - there are numerous entirely catholic countries, ruled via the families' religious obligation to the vatican.
please do take it from there.

[nofurylike]

34. but other than spreading that killing hatred, he's batting okay, eh? eom

[Bridget Burke]

40. The Church hasn't had that much political power in a long time.

I've read a book or two in my day. Name one "entirely catholic country." (Extra points awarded for correct use of Upper Case.)

Homophobia is obviously evil, but you exaggerate the power of the Church.

[nofurylike]

53. this is not the place for this discussion. feel free to start one of your

own.

the poster's comment was callous, cruel. i said so. period.

[meow2u3]

49. What's a two-spirit? nt

[lvx35]

51. What the hell are you talking about?

The doctrine of the catholic church toward homosexuality:

"...men and women with homosexual tendencies 'must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided'. "

source:
# "Considerations regarding proposals to give legal recognition to unions between homosexual persons," Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 2003-JUN-3. Released 2003-JUL-31. See: http://www.vatican.va/

Strait from the horses mouth. The vatican doesn't hate gays, but it opposes ALL sexual behaviour that isn't part of reproduction, which includes homosexuality. Safe sex and masturbation also. Yet do you here all the people who mastubate talking about how their vital lifes were destroyed by the oppression against masturbation? And how being an oppressed masturbator is like being a jew or black? No. So what exactly are you talking about? Something this pope has done? This pope has banned gays from seminary, which I don't agree with. But that's it. No toture, excution, etc. I mean, are you talking about the crusades?
I don't even know what you are refering to. You are are talking like all oppression from gays has come from the catholic church, saying we should study history if we don't get it. Well let me give you a little history lesson. Cuba 1960-70. Gays rounded up and put in labor camps and tortured....And guess who they were with:

The camp inmates included not just homosexuals, but also criminals, students, Catholics and political dissidents. They were set to work at 3 a.m., cutting sugar cane with machetes. It was backbreaking labour on meagre food rations. The gay prisoners were often beaten, and occasionally raped, by criminal gangs in the camps. Some gays were killed; others committed suicide.

source: Gay and Lesbian humanist
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:shY4Gv61-PIJ:www.galha.org/glh/213/cuba.html+gay+oppression+cuba&hl=en&lr=&strip=1

Gays have been oppressed all over the world, in places like china, and believe me, its not the freaking pope behind it.

[nofurylike]

54. this is not the place for that debate. the comment was callous. i said so.

problem?

*

pope jpII message to pilgrims at St. Peter's Square:

"In the name of the Church of Rome, I must express sadness for the affront to the Grand Jubilee of the year 2000 and for the offense to the Christian values of a city that is so dear to the hearts of the Catholics of the world...Homosexual acts are against nature's laws. The church cannot silence the truth, because this would not help discern what is good from what is evil."

"evil"

later in his speech, he called homosexuality "objectively disordered."

Rev. Penny Nixon, of San Francisco's Metropolitan Community Church: the pope's words are "an incredible misuse of power" that will result in "beaten, bruised, and battered bodies."

***

>150 to 200 gay men are known to be murdered annually in Italy because of their sexual orientation. They suspect that the total number is much higher, because many families of origin suppress information about the victim.

Franco Grillini, psychologist blames the Vatican and the Roman Catholic hierarchy of creating a "homophobic atmosphere" that was "in large part responsible for this culture of violence."
>

***

Poland

The 1997 constitution bans discrimination "on any grounds," although the Roman Catholic hierarchy prevented specific protection from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In addition, the constitution limits marriage to heterosexuals.

Opinion polls consistently show that 70 to 80 per cent of Poles despise homosexuals. The Campaign against Homophobia has featured controversial posters to challenge viewers' assumptions.

Although the foundation for a gay and lesbian community has been laid and the legal framework is favorable to gay life, the Roman Catholic Church encourages public anti-gay attitudes so the lives of individual gay men and lesbians continue to be difficult.

***

"Historically, the Roman Catholic Church may be the institution most responsible for the suffering of individuals involved in same-sex sexual relationships."

***

IF YOU REALLY CARE, then look into it more, please.

no more debate of this on this thread, please. your prerogative, of course, but i will not be replying.


peace

[robbedvoter]

42. I suppose it's OK if he only trashes people "who aren't me"

Seen this type of attitude re: the NYC strike.

[texpatriot2004]

2. you know those anti-poverty groups are really terrifying

:sarcasm:

[Honest_Abe]

17. And the Quakers, too.

Everyone knows they're terrorists.

:sarcasm:

[texpatriot2004]

27. Oh yeah, they are the scariest, the worst kind you know...

:sarcasm:

[DesertRat]

30. Well Nixon was a Quaker

:evilgrin:

[Protagoras]

3. I think Bush shouldn't mess with the Catholics

doesn't that fall under shitting where you sleep or eat or something?

[ieoeja]

43. Catholics still vote overwhelmingly Democratic.

It's a minority thing.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Oh there's a shocker! Not!

[Ksec]

7. This is gonna be his Watergate

I imagine theyll take this as high as the supreme court once it plays itself out and therin lies the problem with these whackjob neocon judges they are nominating. I can guaruntee this Alito would vote on Bushs side, even if the law hass clearly been broken. We need to kick this dude to the curb.

[Tom Joad]

9. Dorothy Day was *dangerous* to the powers that be...

That's the late founder of the catholic worker, Dorothy Day, at her last arrest in support of the farm workers.

"Our problems stem," she said, "from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system."

The catholic workers, which i was glad to associate with in Los Angeles (yep, go ahead and track me, FBI!), are people who do not accept the current system, and instead insist on following a very different set of guidelines of another ... kingdom. So it is true they are not loyal to this filthy rotten system.

[nofurylike]

12. dorothy! thank you for posting this precious photo, Tom Joad. eom

[hunter]

19. Go Dorothy!

:yourock:

[scarlett1]

37. My mother took the Catholic Worker paper

it is one penny an issue and when she died her mail was forwarded to my address so I get the paper now. I guess I am being tracked by the FBI.

Gosh the Catholic Worker and the Democratic Underground, now I know I'm being tracked.

[Rich Hunt]

45. my parents subscribe to it....

....what could that possibly bode?

[Lex]

11. WTF?!! This is out of control!

This is NOT okay.

[nofurylike]

13. thank you for posting this information, NNN0LHI. eom

[renate]

14. so much for the catholic vote

Or for the decent-person vote, for that matter.

[YOY]

22. Meh...we're not Christians to his crowd anyways

I've been pointing that out to every Catholic I know. Apparently some still haven't gotten the message.

[WernhamHogg]

24. I found that out the hard way...

Seriously, I remember my first day of high school. I was talking to a girl in my class when she announced to me that she was "a Christian" and then casually asked me what my religion was. I responded that "I'm a Catholic" (I'm agnostic now, but I considered myself Catholic back then). Her reply? "Oh, I HATE Catholics!". I was shocked and didn't know how to answer back, except to ask the teacher after class if I could switch seats.

I've also tried to point this out to any Catholics who will listen.

[YOY]

25. Summer Camp for me as a kid

There was a cute girl from the south there that I rather liked(A die hard fundie baptist as I found out.) She started talking to me about being a Christian and I told her I was too (A Roman Catholic Christian).

Naturally, she told me that I was not a christian and that I was going to hell for being a papist pig... I told her that I was a Christian I just wasn't a protestant, but she would hear none of it and shot me nasty looks every time I entered the room. There was no summer romance there...

I've had a not-so-soft-spot for fundies ever since then...even though I too am more on the Agnostic end (and not looking for anything else...)

[burrowowl]

15. That ASSHOLE John Paul II

could have canonized Dorthy Day instead of the Fascist founder of Opus Dei!

[YOY]

21. He did alot of good

Thanks for pointing out one of his failures...there are a few, but are outweighed in large by the good that he did.

Sorry Burrowowl, but someone who focuses on the worst in people...that's the definition of "asshole" for you.

[burrowowl]

48. John XXIII

did a lot of good, whence liberation theology, real commitment to social justice, etc.
JP II sometimes said nice words but didn't back them. And why did he not canonize Dorothy Day.
Do you realize what Franco did to Spain and JP II canonized one of the promoters of his policies!

[meow2u3]

50. Opus Dei may have blackmailed JP2 into canonizing its founder

Either that, or OD deliberately withheld some damning facts that would have derailed his canonization. JP2 had an advanced case of Parkinson's, which has been shown to cause impaired judgment. That gave those OD sociopaths their chance to take advantage of the late Pope's illness to rubber-stamp the canonization.

[burrowowl]

52. Before JPII

parkinsons, I sure he was fully aware of Opus Dei.
John XXIII did not care for them. I was 11 years old in '59 when we were in Spain and from many Spanards we knew, I knew OD was not a good group nor was Franco, so I am sure JPII was aware of the problem.

[triguy46]

18. Who will drive the investigation?

You can't expect Gonzales to do this. And chimpy isn't going to appoint a special prosecutor. House is controlled by repugs. How can this be investigated when we hold no power?

[Hidden Stillness]

20. Everything is Just a Pretext for Their Crimes

This only serves to confirm what more and more people are now starting to realize, and that is that the Sept. 11th attacks were the best thing that could've happened to the treasonous Republican Party and their neo-con think-tank masters, as it gave them an unimpeded and unending excuse to do whatever they wanted, and to slander and destroy anyone who tried to stop it. Invade Iraq, which had nothing to do with the attacks, funnel tax money to Halliburton, get the oil and the profits for themselves, steal everythnig out of the National Museum, etc., etc. Spy on and invade Democratic/anti-Bush groups, deport American citizens or try them in illegal, secret, military tribunals, etc. The whole thing, only a pretext for doing the most outrageous violations of Constitutional law and protections, which they wanted to do anyway.

I usually don't like conspiratorial thinking, but I have also noticed that whenever I get a letter from a Democratic group or individual, or from the League of Women Voters, NARAL, or anything else, the end of the flap to open the letter is always, always, torn open. It never happens with any other kind of letter, and always happens with liberal/non-Republican letters. This has been going on, every single time, for a few years now, and never had before. When the whole world accuses Bush and Cheney of just relishing the Sept. 11th attacks because it gave them the most wide-open excuse to do every crime they otherwise could not have done, there is no longer any answer to it. It was true.

[Contrary1]

23. I searched for the NYT original article and look what I found...

"One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project."

Looks like it may be more than just the phones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/politics/20fbi.html

[Rich Hunt]

46. that sounds really silly

...my sister was in a local vegan community group, and they all thought one guy was an undercover FBI guy,
because he seemed to know things about them that they hadn't told him. However it turned out he
was just some gossipy schmuck and was probably too dumb to be FBI anyway...

F.B.I. officials said Monday that their investigators had no interest in monitoring political or social activities and that any investigations that touched on advocacy groups were driven by evidence of criminal or violent activity at public protests and in other settings.

a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.

Llamas fur?? Never heard of such a protest! NYT could have done a better job with this article. Instead of naming trivial little groups that can't be verified in any way, they could use the opportunity to educate people about the law and its potential problems, but no, they choose not to. Maybe they're suffering from 'projected guilt' on account of their own snooping and gossiping and intelligence sharing habits, and the damage they've done to private lives. They're ones to talk. :hide:

[VaYallaDawg]

26. We all know where the terror comes from. 1600 PA Ave., DC.

[B3Nut]

29. Well, you can't have people following Jesus Christ

in this good Christian country!!! It's treason! :sarcasm:

Todd in Beerbratistan

[tsuki]

31. So let's ship all the Quakers and Catholics to Gitmo.

[KansDem]

35. So much for the "faith-based" charities Bush wanted to help society...

Bush was spying on a Catholic group that promotes antipoverty efforts

I always thought his "faith-based" solution to society's ills was all bullshit...

edited to add reference to quote...

[ProfessorGAC]

36. That Top FBI Official Needs To Be Dismissed IMMEDIATELY!

How can an antipoverty group fit the very definition he uses? Answer: It can't. So not only is he misguided, he's an idiot and a liar.


The Professor

[mod mom]

38. In Bushworld antipoverty is UnAmerican. They need those poor people for

cheap labor. Who wants to pay fair market for lawn service, house cleaning etc.

sarcasm, of course.

[Avalux]

39. That's why they didn't go through the proper channels -

It's not about terrorism at all - it's about squashing any sort of dissent and threatening (or worse) those in opposition to Buscho's America. Catholics? Quakers? OMG.

[robbedvoter]

41. Perfectly justified. After all, their goal is downright subversive

in light of BFEE agenda (the reverse Robin Hood thingy) . Also, W knows from Bob Jones that Catholics are not the right kind of Christians anyway.

[SmokingJacket]

44. the Catholic Workers in my neighborhood are *very* hardcore

Not just anti-poverty, but extremely anti-Bush. They are high-profile dissidents, really.

THEY ROCK!

And are no threat to American citizens... but a real threat to Bushco.

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. That's *! Always in the vanguard when it comes to

witnessing to Gospel's priorities!