IRA, Patriots or Terrorists?

[maveric]

Poll question: IRA, Patriots or Terrorists?

My brother,of Irish decent,recently stated that the IRA is merely another terrorist organization. This came as surprise to me because for years he was pro IRA. His change of opinion, he said, is due to his new freinds from England that have set him straight. I told him that I felt that they were patriots trying to rid there nation of invaders and opressors.
How do you view the IRA?

[absyntheNsugar]

1. OMG....I'll be a shot of whatever tickles you this turns into

one of DU's biggest brawl.

I have a good friend - she's a Belfast Catholic, married to the son of a Tory Barrister. They don't speak of this.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

131. Wasn't one "IRA Terrorist" just exposed as a British agent?

The British had a long time agent in the IRA leading murders and terrorist activities. He was exposed, and that's the end of the story. How much of the IRA's terrorism has been planned and executed by British agents?

[Padraig18]

145. It's true.

I despair at times in discussing this issue with Americans, not because of any inherent lack of intelligence or lack of good will, etc., but simply because they get most of their 'information' about Ulster and the IRA from CNN, et al, and most of us here already know how 'fair and balanced' they are...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Murder is murder

the IRA are (were) murderers. Up the Republic. Down with murder.

[Maple]

6. So say those

with no knowledge of the situation or it's history...and a black and white view of the world.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. I'm half Irish. Please don't lecture me on history or anything else

And in the bible, and in law, murder is black and white. Sorry.
Defenders of the IRA make me puke.

[Jen72]

288. I live in London.

The Hyde Park bomb that blow up men and horses was on my tenth birthday. I missed the Harrods bomb merely because a train arrived for High Street Kensington, before we went down to the Picaddily Line.
For years we have had bomb alert notices, thourgh security checks at every airport. Bag searches for every public building. We don't complain about invasion of privacy because we understood the deadly nature of the IRA terrorists. Which is the reason most Londoners are completely blase about the newer terrorist threats. We are used to in.
We have had get of trains miles from home, while a suspicious package is checked. And hours to our journey, we have had work days when you can not leave, you building because of a bomb threat, around the corner.
We have no litter bins, because of a spat of bombs being left in them killing commuters.
Every bombing campaign involved several bombs, some found, others not.
That meant those that worked in London, had an added stress in their working lives. The bombing campaign killed ordinary people as well as politicans,Lords and soldiers.
They have a legitimate argument but the campaign just made them no more than evil murders. Everytime a child was blown up whilst shopping for trainers, a nurse killed during a rememberance ceremony,
horses were ripped apart be nail bombs, a senior politicans wife paralysed from the neck down, they lost their argument.
I understand that the Protestants, have causes much harm to NI, but this is a fight that has been going for centuries. An most Irish Catholics I know(they are many) are disgusted by every bomb blast, set of in the name of their religon.

[jafap]

332. i am 3/16th Irish, and I know next to nothing about Irish history

but I do know that murder is not black and white in the bible. In 2 Samuel 5:19 David asks God "shall I go and attack the Philistines?" David was famous because he had "slain tens of thousands." He replaced Saul who lost favor with God because he failed to obey this order: "go and attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." 1 Samuel 15.
It is not so black and white in law either since a murderer like Bush is not going to be charged this side of judgement day. 60 minutes tonight showed a tape of "Chechnyan terrorists" and yet when that incident was over, it was the Russians who killed the Chechnyans and scores of theatre goers. So who was the terrorist?

[maveric]

9. Were the British also "Murderers"?

They slaughtered,imprisoned, and executed Irish citizens for 800 years.

[Padraig18]

10. Let's not forget the 2+ million deliberately starved during the famines.

ANY Brit who would speak from a position of moral superiority on THIS issue should be laughed at without reservation.

[truebrit71]

16. Which has fuck all to do with the IRA

...n/t

[Padraig18]

33. You are NOT allowed to set the terms of debate

Your bloody continuing occupation has fuck all to do with the IRA, and your deliberate genocide of the Irish people has fuck all to do with it, too!

GET OUT NOW! Clear enough for you? Can you hear us now?

[truebrit71]

34. How does one occupy a country of it's own citizens??

..The north want fuck all to do with the Catholic, restrictive South...or is the truth to hard to swallow??

[Padraig18]

40. NO!

The people you IMPORTED onto land you STOLE want you there-- the IRISH want you out of IRELAND!

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

42. See post below "Bollocks"

GET OVER IT!!!

[Padraig18]

45. YOU get over it!

Must be nice to steal people's land, commit genocide against them and then say 'get over it'! GET THE FUCK OUT!

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

50. Are you hard of hearing??? Why do you ask if I can hear you??

..Sounds remarkably like the original settlers of the USA....would the murders of innocent US citizens be okay in your book if it were done by Native Americans because of the actions of people hundreds of years ago?

Fucking stupid way to look at the world if you ask me....

[Padraig18]

54. LEAVE!

You STOLE IT! Give it BACK!

this is NOT the US we are talking about--- it is IRELAND--- ALL of it, not just the part you prefer to not recognize as such for your own imperialist reasons.

Can you hear me now?

[fla nocount]

83. Works for me. Except the murder part.

Death marches are murders. Armed conflicts over right and wrong another matter entirely. Likely to be victims here. Some of us would settle for Geronimo's skull to be returned.

And, it hasn't been "hundreds" of years on this side of the pond. We just turned the corner on the first century.

[Padraig18]

86. Barely 80 years for us...

The wounds are fresh with us, too, fla_nocount. :hug:

[Brian Sweat]

55. This is a lie worthy of a Republican. The American kind.

It is not the people in Northern Ireland that want nothing to do with the Republic of Ireland (ROI). It is the Protestants in Northern Ireland that want nothing to do with the ROI.


Also, The Republic is changing. For example, in 1995 the people of the ROI voted to remove the ban on divorce. The ROI is now one of the richest countries (per capata) in the world. Much richer than Great Britain. This will change attitudes in the north for two reason.

The first reason is economics. As the ROI continues to race past the rest of Europe economically, reunification will become very appealing to the people of Ulster.

Secondly, as the people of the ROI have become more affleunt, they have begun to abandon their extremist religious dogma. The influence of the Catholic Church in the ROI is quickly deminishing.

[Padraig18]

57. Britain has as many neocons as America does, per capita.

Witness the morally-bankrupt arguments here, and the sage advice to 'get over it'. :eyes:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

64. Fiction?

It's fiction that you allowed--- ALLOWED!--- 2 million-plus people to starve to death, and 2 million more leave on famine ships?

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

69. HOW FUCKING LONG AGO???

GET OVER IT.....

[Padraig18]

74. How long ago?

Not long enough to forget the MURDER of half a people. Let us kill half of you with starvation and disease, then let my great-grandchildren ask YOURS if they're 'over it' yet.

Can you hear me now?

[knight_of_the_star]

215. hmmm

I seem to remember Ireland becoming independnet of Britain at the end of WWI. In terms of history, that's pretty recent.

[Padraig18]

219. Part remains unfree. n/t

[truebrit71]

224. The part in the South??

You know the part that bans abortions etc etc??

[Padraig18]

229. No, the part you STOLE!

The 6 counties comprising Ulster. Nice evasion, Houdini; care to wave your hands some more?

[Jen72]

291. Yes they have to come to the England for

an abortion. The ROI is an traditionally oppresive Catholic country, the cities are however more liberial. There are people from other faiths moving into both Dublin and Belfast which helps to increase religous tolerance. That is essential if NI is to be reunited with the ROI. The Irish Protestants are not all British by birth.

[Padraig18]

346. "Pelvic issues"

The fact that abortion is not legal in the ROI hardly makes it Stalinist Russia! :eyes: By any fair measurement, the Republic is a vibrant, prosperous, parliamentary republic with a fantastic human-rights record and is broadly 'tolerant' of ALL religions.

[knight_of_the_star]

214. Here's an interesting twist

I've heard this from some Pagans who went travelling through Ireland and they made no effort to keep secret that they are pagan. The people over there were SOOOO good to them! One of them mentioned that they feel very protective of "their" witches! They are VERY nice to us over there, or so I've heard. The Church has considerable influence, but that influence is waning, unlike places on the continent like Spain or Italy. If things go to shit in this country I might move with some friends over to there and bring as much as I can involving Ren Faires with me!

[Monte Carlo]

321. Hundreds of years of rape and murder, that's how.

I think Britian likes to forget the not-too-distant past when it comes to their control over the island of Eire. When I feel cynical, I think they're reaping what they have sowed across generations. At least that's what I think about when I remember that my great-great-grandfather was killed by a Black & Tan, for example.

Thanks to the legendary Catholic breeding rate, a voting-age majority in N. Ireland will be coming soon. Maybe democracy will upend a history of bloody oppression.

[Jen72]

290. I am sorry but if the IRA had inflicted even half of the

damage on a US city, that is has on London or Manchester, if
someone bombed the hotel were the President slept, your country would have blown Northern Ireland out of existance.

And in 2003 we are not responcible for Henry the Eight, the Famine or any other past injustice.

[Padraig18]

314. If you continue to reap the benefits...

... you ARE still responsible; you continue to occupy what you took by conquest. If you want out of the responsibility for those actions, then cease to occupy Ireland.

[LibLabUK]

335. Ummm

"If you continue to reap the benefits..."

What benefits?


"you continue to occupy what you took by conquest."

Didn't the invasion of Ireland have a little to do with the Irish siding with the French in a bid to invade England to depose William of Orange and place a Catholic king on the throne?

The Pope at the time sided with William of Orange as the French king was becoming a threat to Rome and sent Catholic troops to fight in Ireland against the Irish/French.

Oh how easy it is to remember only half of history.

Can you really hold the people of today responsible for the actions that occured hundreds of years ago?

[Padraig18]

342. Is 80 years so long ago as all that?

That's when the rump state (sic) referred to as "Northern Ireland" came into existence...

[Maeve]

351. History clarifications

"Didn't the invasion of Ireland have a little to do with the Irish siding with the French in a bid to invade England to depose William of Orange and place a Catholic king on the throne?"

Actually, the invasion of Ireland began about 500 years before that and the settlement of Scotch and English Protestants into the Ulster area had been going on for the better part of 100 years before the Battle of the Boyne.
More to the point, the division of Ireland did not occur until the 1920's. The British gevernment thought NI would be self-supporting, but it had to be subsidized. The NI industry proved invaluable to Britain during WWII and benefited mightily from the development of the British welfare state.
The "Troubles" began in the 1960's when the Catholics began to organize for civil rights and the IRA was revived as the only armed force willing to protect Catholic lives and property. However, the "hard men" on both sides(all three sides) rachetted up the violence in the 70's and 80's--terrorism in England was a (stupid) attempt to make the British people wash their hands of the whole Irish mess. (Not defending the indefensible, just explaining where the idea came from).
It is the actions of the past century that are at the crux of the problem. The preceeding 800 years are just context.

[Padraig18]

352. Hear, hear!

it is useful to know what the facts are, and in context, rather than 'conventional wisdom'. :thumbsup:

[Brian Sweat]

39. Motive.

The behavior of the British government towards the Irish in general and Catholics in particular during the famine goes a long way toward explaining the deep seeded animosity felt by most of the Catholics toward the British. Incidents such as Bloody Sunday further reinforced Catholic hatred of the British.

Throughout much of the history of Northern Ireland, the British routinely sided with the Protestants. Both sides in Ireland have committed terrorist acts, but we tend to think that only the Catholics are terrorists. The British have tended to concentrate their efforts at tracking down the Catholics and sometimes turning a blind eye to the Protestant terrorists.

[Jen72]

292. i agree with that.

The actions of the Protestant terrorists are ignored. I think that Ian Paisley is a dangerous man too.
I suppose the different perception of the Protestants is the commited their atrocities within Northern Ireland, where as the IRA were ruthless enough to blow up Lord Battenburg, Harrods, Manchester shopping centre, pubs etc across the UK.
Few people were hours late for work because a Protestant loyalist planted a bomb in a bin on a Monday morning. The IRA's actions allowed them to be demonised.

[NoMoreRedInk]

96. Yes, they were****

nm

[Padraig18]

12. Were John Adams and Geo. Washington also murderers? n/t

[Brian Sweat]

23. I understand the desire of the Catholics in Ulster to be rid of UK rule,

but that does not excuse some of the things that were done by the IRA. In some cases, they deliberately targetted civilians in a obvious attempt to great terror.

The problem that I have is that everyone focuses on the IRA. There are loyalists who are every bit as much the terrorists that some of the IRA soldiers were.

[Padraig18]

26. Read post #13

That should clear up my stand on the issue. :hi:

[GainesT1958]

27. To me, those who praise the IRA for "patriotism"...

Are no different than those who praise Palestinian suicide bombers for being "martyrs". BOTH are unadulterated, amoral, brutal terrosists, and deserve all the brutal punishment that could come their way. They are trying to force the majority of the population of two Irish counties (a Protestant majority) to subjugateitself to the Catholic minority through murder and violence. Why should they be rewarded for this?:mad:

There needs to be peace in Northern Ireland, not hatred between Christian sects--and that includes the cessation of the marches by Protestants through Catholic Portadown to commemorate a 400-year-old battle. WHO THE HELL CARES ANYMORE?!x(

Let the Good Friday accords succeed with the PEOPLE of Northern Ireland, and to hell with the I.R.A.'s idiots and the bloodthirsty fools like Ian Paisley in the U.D.A., too!:grr:

B-)

[DealsGapRider]

37. Well said.

You can always count on a section of the DU village to defend murder / tyranny, etc. as long as it takes place within the confines of an ideology they can support.

Anyone who thinks it's all right to deliberately target children and civilians for murder, as long as your "cause" is just, is a despicable person.

[sujan]

203. true

I was thinking the same about the US military.

[dreissig]

3. A Bit of Both

The IRA are in bed with criminals, but then again, they can't exactly run bake sales, can they? Bank robberies finance rebellion. The British can leave Ireland - that's one way to handle it.

Thomas Davis said it: "Righteous men will make our land a nation once again ..." But politicians these days aren't especially righteous. To name a few: Ahern ... Adams ... Trimble ... et al. There's nothing new in the fact that the British Prime Minister is a member of the Scumbag's Union.

[number six]

4. you say you want a revolution?

when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out

[truebrit71]

5. Murdering Bastards pure and simple

This is probably one of the most stupid polls EVER...These people are out and out terrorists and should be hunted down and executed like the murderous cowards they are...ANYBODY that supports the IRA needs their fucking head examined....

FUCK THE IRA

[Padraig18]

7. Spoken like a citizen...

... of a morally-bankrupt, post-colonial empire still clinging desperately to illusions of power.

[truebrit71]

18. ...we are not talking about the USA here mate....

n/t

[Padraig18]

20. Huh? n/t

[truebrit71]

25. Isn't the US a "of a morally-bankrupt, post-colonial empire"

..."desperately to illusions of power." ?

The IRA has NOTHING to do with whatever axe you have to grind mate about 800 yeard old history...they are killers that need to be eliminated...

[Padraig18]

29. Bloody BRITAIN, ffs!

Unless somethinng has changed sine last night, mate, YOU'RE still occupying "Ireland"--- or am I mistaken?

[truebrit71]

38. Really, which part??

Last time I checked Eire was a sovereign nation. Northern Ireland and it's citizens don't want to be united...or haven't you heard??

[Padraig18]

43. Last time I heard

The 6 counties you still OCCUPY, after you ilegally STOLE THEM are referred to as Ulster!

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

46. Um, last time i check the 6 counties were a part of the UK

...can you hear that???

[Padraig18]

49. What part of 'stolen' don't you understand?

GET THE FUCK OUT OF ULSTER! GIVE BACK WHAT YOU STOLE!

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

52. What part of GET OVER IT don't you understand??

Whatever ills were done were done centuries ago....The IRA don't give a flying fuck about the history...they are murderers plain and simple...

[Padraig18]

56. Give back what you stole and the killing stops.

Quite simple, actually.

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

67. No, kill all the terrorists and the killing stops..

But as long as people like you support them the killing will continue...well done, hope you're proud of yourself....

[Padraig18]

71. Soldiers and politicians of an occupying power are fair game.

Have you not been paying attention in Iraq?

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

228. As are terrorists, and anyone that supports them....

or have YOU not been paying attention in Iraq....

[Padraig18]

236. I've paid attention.

I think it is you who have failed to understand the lesson.

[Jen72]

293. You have got to be kidding.

The killing may well get worse. The IRA represent an extremist Catholic faction, they hate Protestants and the marching Orangmen hate the Catholics. They may be minorites but they are deadly. They are all vengeful, determined and believe they have rights to that land. They still housing areas that are either purely Catholic or purely Protestant, families still risk trouble through inter-marriage.
The withdrawal of the British Army will need to be replaced by the UN peacekeepers to prevent all out war. The Irish protestants who have been living in Northern Ireland for centuries have the right to live their just as the Catholics do.
At this time Belfast has become a more tolerent cities,the peace has made it thrive and grow. They have Muslim and Hindu's living there.
What will happen to them, caught in the middle of a religious war.
If the British forces withdraw, it can not risk a bloodbath in its wake.

[Padraig18]

310. I'm not kidding at all.

The vast majorities of both Protestants AND Catholics want nothing more than to go about their daily lives as normal people should, witness the "Mother's March". I think the specualtion about wholesale civil war and/slaughter are greatly exaggerated. People who target civilian non-combatants are murderers by definition, and withdrawl of British troops COULD conceivably *decrease* the number of deaths and attacks. One reason the UDF are so bold (or were so bold, and still are to a degree) is that they KNOW the British troops will (or used to) 'shield' them from most of the consequences of their actions.

[Maple]

8. Well the Brits

have been trying to take over Ireland for close to a thousand years...and haven't suceeded.

So of course you're a little bitter. LOL

Go home. Stay there.

Simple as that.

[JohnKleeb]

15. I agree with you on that completely

I know we disagree a lot about Trade but on Ireland you are so right.
They dont need Ireland.

[Padraig18]

22. Indeed they don't. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

30. Yep

This interestingly enough Padraig is one of the few issues I agree with a right wing friend of mine who is of Irish desent, I think I know why they conquered the Isle :) everyone knows that its the most beautiful of them all, I am kinda joking about that but seriously Ireland needs to be one. Ive never got why the Brits wanted Ireland. Its like I/P to some and indeed it is. I feel the same way about this the way I might have about say 90 years ago on the eve of WWI about the Austrian-Hungarians occupying some of my other ancestral lands.

[NashVegas]

204. Same Reason We Keep Hawaii

Protect the western flank.

[mitchtv]

122. gibraltar, Malnvinas(falklands) too

.

[Padraig18]

185. Like an old whore...

... who refuses to surrender that last stocking, for fear people will finally realize that she's just an old whore who's no longer young and beautiful.

[NashVegas]

205. You Will Love

This Steve Earle quote regarding Britain: "They're like fucking Blanche DuBois."

[Padraig18]

207. LOL!

:P :evilgrin:

As anyone can clearly see by certain posts here, the Brit;s STILL believe that anyone who's not British is just....well... not quite as good as those who are.

[truebrit71]

220. Truth hurts eh??

:evilgrin:

[Padraig18]

253. The truth that Britain is an old whore...

... striving to maintain some semblence of a long-vanished beauty?

[Ani Yun Wiya]

259. Truth is...

That imperialism is a disease, a virus.

The cure for this disease is any resistance that will suffice to kill it off.

Tell me something: Did the British get the disease from the Romans?

[Padraig18]

263. Perhaps so.

They've certainly taken a chapter out of the Roman's book, the one entitled "We Stole It Fair and Square, So Quit Whining!"

[muriel_volestrangler]

266. Given that the largest 'ethnic group' in Britain

has almost no interaction with the Romans, you can't really say they would have got much from them.
How far back do we go with ejecting inhabitants? 350 years to the Scottish going to Ulster? 400 years to Europeans going to North America? 1500 years to the Irish going to Scotland, and the Anglo-Saxons going to England? Even further?

[Padraig18]

269. I know of no one who proposes 'ejecting' anyone.

Completing the unification of a nation that was forcefully, artificially and fraudulently divided is another matter. No Irish person I know advocates making anyone 'leave', nor do they advocate expropriating personal property. If one should choose to go to the UK should a plebiscite favor the ROI, then so be it.

On edit: Can we please bear in mind that the ROI is hardly Stalinist Russia, but rather one of the healthiest and most vital republics in the world, with enormous personal liberty.

[muriel_volestrangler]

276. Good - I've since found another post where you say that too.

The point is that without ejecting the Protestants who came from Scotland, who have been there longer than most people can trace back their ancestry, and with the majority in Northern Ireland voting for Unionist parties, you cannot truthfully say that Britain is occupying Ulster.

The division of Ireland was done to avoid further fighting - which it did, for a bit. Britain did many things wrong in Ireland over the centuries, but many Britons tried to get it independence for years (eg Gladstone). It's a shame that the hatred built up over the years, and the ROI started off so influenced by the Roman Catholic church that the Protestants thought they'd be discriminated against - and that Protestant extremists threatened more civil war. Division looks like a compromise made by the British government when they were tired of the fighting, to me.

The mainstream IRA has held its ceasefire well over recent years, and I believe that Sinn Fein really would like a 'war is over' declaration, but they're stuck with a few 'death or glory' types. I'm annoyed at Trimble's stance on the last decommissioning, and am glad the elections are going ahead. I might even hope for the SDLP to lead a coalition with Sinn Fein and the Alliance. Interestingly, last year Trimble was also calling for a plebiscite - I don't know if he still is. Bear in mind that the Good Friday Agreement says you can only hold one every 7 years - perhaps he wanted one sooner rather than later. Why Blair doesn't want one, I'm not sure - maybe he just thinks it would stir up more trouble. He did postpone the elections for that reason.

The Real, Continuity etc IRA are still murdering terrorists, as are the 'Loyalists' - whatever they're loyal to, it's not my Britain.

[Padraig18]

278. Hold up, please...

I can't say britain is 'occupying Ulster' because it seized it and imported citizens to hold it for 300 years? I simply don't accept that course of logic; Ireland was seized in a manner which, if it occurred today, would constitute several gross violations of international law, so the fact of when it happened is immaterial.

Regarding the 'division to prevent further violence', that is also only partially true; the division is artificial, and 'Northern Ireland' is little more than a rump outpost of a degenerate empire which gerrymandered it into existence. NI's 'legitimacy' is about equal with those new Congressional districts down in Texas.

Ireland always was viewed as a single entity from both within and without, and no mere 80 year time period can erase that historical truth.

[truebrit71]

21. This also has fuck all to do with the IRA..

..they are murdering cowards

[Padraig18]

24. Coming from a colonial power...

... I take that as a compliment.

What part of "Ireland" don't you people get?

[Brian Sweat]

65. What about the Protestant loyalists who commit similar acts?

Are they murdering cowards as well?

[truebrit71]

70. Abso-fucking-lutely!

n/t

[LeahMira]

166. Some are...

... because these situations bring out the worst in some people - or probably more accurately they bring out some of the worst people. Still, the English thought of the Irish as sub-human, and treated them like animals for years. I don't buy into the idea of fighting and killing on principle, but I can understand why it happens.

We in the U.S. tend to see everything as Catholics v. Protestants and assume it's all a religious war. In this case, I don't think it actually is... but I could be wrong.

I wish Padraig would suggest some websites or some books to help us learn more. Although I heard a lot from my Irish Catholic mother about what low-life wretches the English are, I never did hear much about the facts.

[LeahMira]

167. Some are...

... because these situations bring out the worst in some people - or probably more accurately they bring out some of the worst people. Still, the English thought of the Irish as sub-human, and treated them like animals for years. I don't buy into the idea of fighting and killing on principle, but I can understand why it happens.

We in the U.S. tend to see everything as Catholics v. Protestants and assume it's all a religious war. In this case, I don't think it actually is... but I could be wrong.

I wish Padraig would suggest some websites or some books to help us learn more. Although I heard a lot from my Irish Catholic mother about what low-life wretches the English are, I never did hear much about the facts.

[mitchtv]

115. oh sorry Brit

thought you wer talking about the occupation forces

[FlashHarry]

11. Well, bombing a department store at Christmas time sure seems patriotic

1983: Harrods bomb blast kills six "The whole area was packed with Christmas shoppers"

Three police officers and three members of the public have been killed and 75 others injured after a car bomb attack in central London.

Police believe the IRA planted the bomb in a side street near Harrods department store in Knightsbridge.

A coded warning was received at 1245 GMT but the devicie exploded just before 1330 when it is believed to have killed four police officers who were approaching it.

A huge blast ripped through the busy streets which were crowded with Christmas shoppers.

[Padraig18]

13. I will not defend attacks on non-combatants.

Legitimate political targets and members of the military are different. That is where *I* draw the line.

[DS1]

48. then you admit to terrorism tactics

?

[Padraig18]

51. Only a blind man...

... would deny that BOTH sides have committed acts of terror.

[truebrit71]

53. In the past...however in the present the only murdering fuckheads are the

IRA...

[Padraig18]

59. And what part of the word 'occupied'...

... don't you understand? Unless something happened overnight, Ulster is STILL occupied.

Can you hear me now?

[Bridget Burke]

73. Sorry, you're quite wrong

Still no excuse for violence by Republican diehards, but do check out this list of "Loyalist Attacks July 1-October 6, 2003":

www.irlnet.com/aprn/features/Flash031008.html

[Padraig18]

75. We must disagree

Pols and soldiers are military targets. Non-combatants are off limits, as innocents always should be.

[Jen72]

295. But Non- Combatants have not been off limits, by the IRA.

The terrorist acts of the Loyalists have mostly been within Northern Ireland and have gained less attention.
The methods used by the IRA has made trust between sides very hard.
The British Government knows that is the path to peace fails,the bombs start across Britain once more.Simply withdrawing while the trust between all sides is so fragile, could be devestating.
I believe if De-valution is given a chance, it will help to stablise Ulster. What would it achieve if the British withdraw, only to be replaced by UN Peacekeepers? And how can NI and the ROI be reunited without the will of the all people of Northern Ireland?
This is complicated and yes the British have done terrible things, but it is a country that has over two thousand years of History. Name any country that old that hasn't committed atrocities.

[Maeve]

78. For those who don't want to click that link

A small quote:
"loyalist violence has persisted with more than 160 separate sectarian attacks on Catholics across the Six Counties. These attacks are in part the result of the sectarian divisions within our society, but the majority are being orchestrated by unionist paramilitary groups.

This has included 54 pipe and petrol bomb attacks, a number of shooting incidents, 43 attacks on people including a man stabbed eight times, a pregnant women beaten so severely that she lost her baby and several attempted abductions. There have been scores of attacks on Catholic houses and property with families forced to leave their homes.

And in the last few weeks we have seen an upsurge in attacks on Catholic schools and churches. On the 18th September five Catholic schools in Larne, North Belfast and West Belfast were forced to close due to UDA bomb hoaxes and on 15th September devices were left at two Catholic schools in Dungiven and Limavady. The fact that the UDA in particular is heavily infiltrated by Special Branch and Military Intelligence agents raises the question about who is setting the agenda for such attacks. "

[Jen72]

296. Yes this is all true.

The UDA does need to dealt with as harshly the the IRA has in the past. They are hateful people and they are damaging chances of peace.
I am sure their are infilatrations, they are like Freemasons in that respect.
There is culture of hate, within Northern Ireland and that is why I fear that should British Soldiers withdraw at the wrong time, there will be all out war.

[NewJerseyDem]

60. political targets?

What the hell does that mean? Do you want them to kill members of parliament or something? Because that would be unbelievable outrageous.

I guess you also think that Native Americans should be given control of the government. Maybe all the whites should have to leave South Africa and the the whites in Australia can leave as well.

I'm sure the Irish didn't just evolve there. They probably had to kill off some people to take control of all of Ireland. So, I guess we can do some research and find out who first found it so we know who should have it really.

[Padraig18]

68. Read post #63 n/t

[Ani Yun Wiya]

260. Native Americans should be given control of the government

Excellent idea.
It would certainly change how and why things are done in this nation!

As to the white colonists in South Africa and Australia, I am sure that England could roll out the red carpet and welcome them home.

[Padraig18]

268. The Brits' entire attitude:

"Well, we fucked it up, but that's just tough--- deal with it!" They then object to any attempt to 'deal with it' that adversely affects their vested interest in any way whatsoever. :eyes:

[s33]

282. history lesson

Most anglo-celtic Australians were originally brought here forcibly as slaves and convicts,unlike the white American settlers who CHOSE to immigrate.We didnt choose to come here,but we built it into what it is today.We,nor our ancestors,had anything to do with the behaviour of the British crown and its officials towards Aborigines.It is our country just as much as the indigenous Australians,and we are not known as *white* Australians,we are just Australians.

As for the European immigrants who came here freely,they can go back to Europe for all i care.

And the White South Africans?Why would they go to England when most of them are German?

[chiburb]

14. I suspect they're terrorists, but...

Since they aren't Muslim, no big deal. No need to include them in the Global War On Terror!

Btw, is this thread an "I/P" for the rest of us?

[Padraig18]

19. My signature line

'We stand at Rossa's grave not in sadness, but in exultation of spirit... This is a place of peace sacred to the dead, where men should speak with all charity and all restraint; but I hold it a Christian thing... to hate evil, to hate untruth, to hate oppression, and hating them to strive to overthrow them... while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree, shall never be at peace.' (emphasis added for those who don't 'get it')

[truebrit71]

28. Get this...

..the folks in the North want sod all to do with the loonies in the south...

GET THAT!!!!

FUCK THE IRA and ANYONE THAT SUPPORTS THEM!!!

[Padraig18]

35. No, get THIS!

The people YOU imported onto land you STOLE want you there; the IRISH want you to get the fuck OUT, and always HAVE!

[truebrit71]

41. Bollocks....

...do you support slave reparations in the US too???


GET OVER IT!!!!

[Padraig18]

47. LEAVE ULSTER!

Give back what you stole!

Can you hear me now?

'We stand at Rossa's grave not in sadness, but in exultation of spirit... This is a place of peace sacred to the dead, where men should speak with all charity and all restraint; but I hold it a Christian thing... to hate evil, to hate untruth, to hate oppression, and hating them to strive to overthrow them... while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree, shall never be at peace.'

Clear enough to get past the wax in your ears, Brit?

[truebrit71]

58. So should the US give Texas and California back to Mexico??

The history has bugger all to do with the current situation and the IRA who are a bunch of cowards...Takes alot of courage to bomb a school right? Or a pub? Or shoot kids on their way to the shops right??

REAL FUCKING MEN DO THAT? RIGHT??

[Padraig18]

63. This is about Ireland

I will not be distracted by lame attempts to argue philosophical points or abstract generalities.

Can you hear me now?

[Spentastic]

76. Fine

If those are the terms of debate I'd assume that only people who evolved in Ireland should be alowed to call themselves Irish?

How are you going to prove the primacy of the Irish people (if such a thing truly exists)?

The IRA in the last 20 years has been a petty nationalistic terrorist organisation. The presence of the Brits justified their existence. It did not justify their methods.

[Padraig18]

79. Read post #13

My views on military targets as opposed to non-combatants are quite clear.

[Jen72]

297. Which would be fine, but the IRA did not agree

n/t

[Padraig18]

311. The IRA are not 'The Borg'

Breakaway elements of the IRA target civilian non-combatants, etc. ; the IRA do not.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

261. slave reparations

Sounds like a capitol idea.

[GainesT1958]

44. Is the I.R.A. REALLY about "Savin' the Auld Sod"...

Or is it about killing as many Protestant innocent men, women and children--in Ireland and elsewhere--as it can?

And this is NOT about "800 years", either; it's about the years since "the Troubles" began in 1969!x(

Those Good Friday Accords had BETTER succeed--and, by the way, can we all agree that they are some of Bill Clinton's biggest foreign policy triumphs?:D

One shouldn't excuse Catholic, or Protestant, terrorism and murder in Northern Ireland any more than one should excuse Palestinian terrorist murder in Israel, or I.D.F. murder in Palestinian territories. It's THAT simple to ME! :mad:

B-)

[Padraig18]

82. Since the Brits are so sure they're wanted in Ulster...

... why do they reject out of hand the idea of holding a plebiscite?

Would that be pure democracy, or not?

[truebrit71]

93. I agree..

but no-one in the South, or rabid "free-Ireland" types like you would accept the vote when you lost....

[Padraig18]

109. Straw man

I *would* accept the vote, but that's neither here not there, since your country is too chick**** to allow one...

[Bridget Burke]

31. The "Real IRA" & other groups

(Including the more intransigent Unionists) are against the Good Friday agreement.

The IRA "proper" is an arm of Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein's goal is a united Ireland--brought about by political means, not violence.

http://sinnfein.org/

[mrgorth]

32. You had to fucking post this didn't you?

Oglaigh na h'Eireann is mostly motivated by patriotism though I'm sure other elements get involved. They have done some justifiable things and some unjustifiable in the past, just like the Brits. The thing is that the Brits should be out of the 6 counties and they should've been gone long ago. The bottom line here that we should all remember is that there is a peace process in place now and the 'RA has been on ceasefire for a very long time and is actively destroying weapons. Would that all other trouble spots in the world be in such shape. Tiocfaidh ar La!

[durutti]

181. I Support Irish Independence

I just don't support some of the tactics of the IRA and the groups that have split from it.

[Padraig18]

237. I don't believe non-combatants should be harmed, either. n/t

[nemo137]

325. exactly!

partition was a mind numbingly bad idea, and the six counties are a vertige of colonialism, but "disappearings" and some of the darker bits of the IRA's tactics are wrong.

[Padraig18]

348. Absolutely!

The deaths of non-combatants are common murder, with malice aforethought, and I know of *no* true Irish man or woman who does not view them as such.

[Maeve]

36. Yes...and no

You're asking for a simple answer to a complex answer.

The IRA started out as the only ones who would defend the Catholic minority when the Protestant majority attacked--the police were Protestant and the British soldiers tended to side with the Powers In Charge. (Remember, the Brits were welcomed by the Catholics when they first arrived to protect the innocent, but when the only attempts to round up weapons were made against Catholic areas, well...)

ALL sides have engaged in terrorism, i.e. the killing of non-combatants. (This is at least a three-sided game) None-NONE-are coming to the table with clean hands. That being said, many in the IRA are trying to move toward the political route and leave the deadly ways in the past.

[Spentastic]

62. "Merely another terrorist organisation"

Well I'm sure the family of Tim Parry would agree with your glib dismissal of other views on the subject.

"On Saturday 20 March 1993 two bombs detonated in Bridge Street, Warrington, in the North West of England. There was no warning. It was the day before Mothering Sunday in Bridge Street, the main shopping area in Warrington. The street was packed with people preparing for that special day.

As a result of their injuries Johnathan Ball, aged 3, died on that day and 12- year-old Tim Parry died 5 days later. Fifty-six people suffered physical injuries whilst countless others still carry the mental scars. The Irish Republican Army (IRA), as part of a campaign of violence, planted the bombs."

Brave, brave men those IRA soldiers.

Furthermore, during the time I lived in London the IRA planted bombs in two stations that I regularly used. Am I a soldier? Am I a politician? The IRA made a decision to forego "legitimate" targets and go after the civilian population on the mainland. At this point they became without doubt a terrorist organisation.

This is not to say that the British are blameless. Without doubt they are not. The UFF and the UDA are equally abhorrent. The British army and political policy was also seriously flawed. I don't however remember the British army being deployed in the Republic in response to IRA violence.

This thread is anbsolute disgrace and I'm entirely unsurprised that IRA found a ready source of funding in the U.S. For those that gave money, you may wish to consider the people you left limbless or lifeless.

I applaud Sinn Fein's move towards a non violent approach. I applaud all those who have laid down their arms in pursuit of a better future. The IRA may have started with a noble cause but ended up murdering children, running guns, exporting terrorism and purportedly controlling the drug trade in the Republic. The sooner the IRA is consigned to history the better.

On edit. This isn't anti British sentiment I see here either it's predominantly anti English. From memory all attacks on the mainland occurred in England. If this is really about the 800 year struggle then I believe that the Scots have a prior claim to invading and fucking up Ireland.

[Padraig18]

77. Read post #13

I'm quite clear that I consider the murder of non-combatants just that. Soldiers and pols are fair game.

[Spentastic]

84. I assume you voted

Terrorists then? Because the IRA deliberately targeted men, women and children who were shopping.

I also don't subscribe to the theory that policemen and soldiers deserve to be killed.

[Padraig18]

92. Police and soldiers are combatants.

They are armed. If they don't want to be targets, let them do something else.

[Spentastic]

98. A question then

The IRA did target women and children not connected to the police or the armed forces.

Did you vote terrorist or patriot?

[Padraig18]

103. I didn't vote, because ther's not an option I could vote for. n/t

[Nihil]

255. What option would you have voted for?

If you wouldn't choose "Terrorist" or "Patriot" or "Not sure" then
how would you word an option that you *would* choose?

(Please answer this specific question, not "has there ever been a
vote?" or "how long have the English/Scots/whoever been in Ireland?"
or "what would have happened in 1776 if ...?" or "can you hear me?")

Thanks,

Nihil

[Padraig18]

267. My answer

"The IRA is not a terrorist organization, but some individual IRA members are terrorists."

[Nihil]

274. OK

Thanks - that fills in the missing blanks between the refusal to
condemn the IRA as terrorists and the agreement that "killing
innocent civilians is murder". I couldn't think of a "shade of grey"
option that would fit.

Does this distinction also exist within the anti-IRA organisations?

(i.e., in the same way that a non-terrorist member of the IRA can
choose to join/remain in an organisation that has terrorist members,
can the British Army or UDF/etc have non-terrorist members who are
there for equally valid reasons without necessarily supporting the
more bloodthirsty and murderous colleagues who you justifiably hate?)

Nihil

[Padraig18]

281. Yes. n/t

[Nihil]

333. Does it then become an "eggs and omelette" argument?

I asked:

> Does this distinction > containing some individual members] also exist within the anti-IRA
> organisations?

You answered "Yes".

If that is the case, the selection of "valid targets" surely becomes
slightly more complex than "soldiers and politicians" doesn't it?

For simplicity's sake (and personal sympathy) let's leave it as open
season on politicians but with regard to soldiers or opposing forces,
it can no longer be simply "a man/woman in uniform" or you might be
choosing the non-terrorist member by mistake (in the same way that the
soldier might shoot at the non-terrorist IRA man who is standing next
to the terrorist IRA man).

Evidence that "that particular man/woman" was involved in an unlawful
killing (or murder) would be more likely to keep people's sympathy
should "that particular man/woman" be unlawfully killed (or murdered)
in return. Simply picking the nearest unfortunate to the gun-holder
is no more justified than killing a tourist or a child on the mainland.

Please note that I am not trying to attack you on this - I still
think that your option would have made a good choice on the original
poll - but trying to understand the pro-IRA argument in a comparatively
calm, rational discussion rather than the more common manner round here
of "F*** you" / "No, f*** you" / ad naus.

Thanks,

Nihil

[Padraig18]

338. If I may use an analogy.

British soldiers are legitimate targets not because they are terrorists, but because they are the jackboot upon the throats of the people, much like American soldiers in Iraq are legitimate targets. I'm not saying it's nice or pretty, merely legitimate to view them as 'the enemy'.

[maveric]

110. Did the IRA "Target" women & children or was it collateral damage?

I'm curious what your take is on that.

[Spentastic]

146. How high

in the British chain of command is the McDonalds in the High Street Warrington? Or the railway at Edmonton Green? Or Harrods?

The IRA in the later years of their existence were murdering cowards. No more, no less. Terror tactics were employed in an attempt to cow the British into giving in to Republican demands.

People defending the IRA need look no further than the Warrington bombing and examine what the hell they are thinking.

[Jen72]

298. The IRA placed a bomb at Harrods in December,

the blew up a shopping centre, put a bomb in a rubbish bin at Victoria station. None of these places have military presence and police are ordinary street walking policemen.There is no way those bombs can avoid killing ordinary civillians. The people who were killed by the Harrods bomb (two miles away from where me(11) and my parents were shopping), were just normal London policeman, trying to protect the thousands of shoppers that day.
The people that plant these bombs do not care who gets killed.
They did blow up some of the Queen's soliders in Hyde Park once, on my birthday with nail bombs. I have seen an interview from a policeman who attended the scene. He has never worked since, the carnage of men and horses was so bad.
I know the anxiety that was felt one those days when a bomb had gone off somewhere in London, when your father works in Central London and
there maybe other bombs.
And as much as I loathe the Conservative Party, the attempted murder of Maggie Thatcher and her government in Brighton is not excusable either. And it only strengthen the resolve not to negociate with the IRA, because you can not negocate with terrorists. For alone, the USA would have raise Belfast to the ground, had that happen on your soil.

I have always known many Irish catholics living in London and the IRA that killed and maimed, disgused them and never represented them in anyway.

[truebrit71]

100. You make as much sense as Rummy....

...'combatants', they are keeping the peace from a bunch of cowards..

[Padraig18]

104. You make as much sense as...

... the people who defended the Gestapo! Go back to your OWN country, and get the **** out of MINE!

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

112. First of all I am not there....

the citizens of northern ireland are and until such time as they want to join the south none of your incessant yammering or indignant incohnerent ramblings matter a bit....

Secondly, I can hear you fine....

[Padraig18]

119. Like the citizens of Vichy France? n/t

[DrWeird]

66. What's the difference?

nt

[sleestak]

72. Sorry, but terror is never good

Anyone who uses car bombs (ANYONE) on civilians to enforce their viewpoints are evil.

[rman]

80. what about occupation, using bullets and grenades?

anyone using bombs on civilians to get their way is good?

[Padraig18]

81. I agree about non-combatants

Legitimate military targets are pols and soldiers; non-combatants should not be harmed in any way.

[seemslikeadream]

85. Padraig18

My great great grandparents are from County Wexford. Do you have an opinion about the United Irishmen, 1791?

[Padraig18]

88. Our very own Declaration of Independence.

:) Too bad it didn't work...

[seemslikeadream]

89. Yes

my greatgrandmother left an orphan by the violence and sent to America to survive at the age of 14 in 1844.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

94. A target is...

... any member of the government or armed forces of the occupying power.

[truebrit71]

95. They are NOT an occupying army...

It is impossible to "occupy" your own country....

Why is that so hard for you to understand??

It ain't yours mate...IT'S MINE..so bugger off!!!!

[Padraig18]

97. It's NOT 'your' country!

It's MINE, so YOU bugger off back to Jolly Old!

Can you hear me now?

[truebrit71]

105. Oh no it isn't...

..so you can sod off back to the bogs matey....

BTW are the fucking Verizon guy? Is that why you keep asking if I can hear you?

[Padraig18]

183. Typical condescending attitude...

Care to use "Paddy", or "bog trotter"? I'm immune to them, too. I'm also pleased as punch that you've finally let people see the Brits' 'true colors'--- couldn't have asked for a clearer demonstration of institutionalized contempt you hold for us than the one you provided. Thanks, mate! :thumbsup:

[truebrit71]

196. I'm sorry, didn't you refer to England as an "Old Whore"

Yeah, nothing but class there mate...:eyes:

[Padraig18]

201. If the fishnet stockings and red, spike heels fit... n/t

[truebrit71]

209. Yet more class....

:eyes:

[Padraig18]

213. Almost as classy as the 800 years of occupation. n/t

[maveric]

101. Northern IRELAND is not England. Not their own country.

Unless of course STEALING it from the IRISH makes it their country.

[Spentastic]

106. So here it is.

ENGLAND. It's the English you hate? Why not the Scots and the Welsh? Why just the English? Is it because you're a bigot?

[Padraig18]

117. I do not hate 'the English'

I hate what they have done and continue to do. Would it make you happier if I said "The United Kingdom of Great Britain, blah, blah, blah..."?

[Spentastic]

124. Well

It would be more accurate wouldn't it?

But that's not the feeling I get from the IRA apologists here. You don't dislike the British you single out and HATE the English.

You're as bad as those ignornant Brits who hate the Irish because of the actions of the IRA.

[Padraig18]

126. It's a free country...

... and you're entitled to your 'feeling', whather it reflects MY feelings, or not.

[truebrit71]

184. For the record i don't hate the Irish either...Just the people that

fund the IRA from afar where there active participation in terrorism is no danger of blow back, and everyone else that insists on romanticising terrorist cowards as 'patriots'. People in N.Ireland DON'T WANT to be part of Eire. It's as simple as that...

[Padraig18]

188. When a free, fair and honest election yields that result, I'll believe it.

eom

[truebrit71]

197. Oh, well then as long as YOU are okay with it...

Puhleez....:eyes:

[Padraig18]

202. See?

You *know* we won't, so that's your excuse for not ever holding one. Self-fulfilling prophecy...

[truebrit71]

210. And if one were held and the answer was no??

Would you and those like you quit yapping about it?

[Padraig18]

211. "You and those like you"

Nice touch, for someone who's so concerned about propriety.

Yes, we would. So, when do the polls open?

[truebrit71]

217. Don't tell me I have to explain that to you as well??

"You" that'd be, well...you
"and those like you" that'd be people that thought that murdering innocent civilians is a good way to settle an 800-year old feud..like you..

[Padraig18]

222. Please stick to facts

Read post #13. I am quite clear about innocent civilians.

Care to sitort anything elsae I've posted, or would you rather condescend some more in that manner you Brits have perfected over the last 1000 years?

[truebrit71]

226. Now it's a thousand years??

Blimey mate, you've got a good memory!!

[Padraig18]

238. Appeal to ridicule.

Like you've not engaged in any hyperbole here, eh?

[Padraig18]

113. Which is precisely what they DID! n/t

[truebrit71]

114. No-one is saying it's England...It is part of the United Kingdom

n/m

[Padraig18]

121. Only by force of arms. n/t

[truebrit71]

223. Two words for you..

Utter Bollocks...

[Padraig18]

239. Invited, were you? n/t

[Clete]

90. My Irish husband even says they are terrorists.

Back in the days before Irish independence, they were patriots. Although, they still have a cause in N. Ireland (equality for Catholics with the Protestants), their methods are terrorist methods. Some trivia here, the IRA has been instrumental in training terrorist groups throughout the world including by default Al Queda.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

99. my friend had his house bombed by Loyalists

Just a few years ago. He is a civilian with no ties to any groups. Yet the Loyalists come into his neighborhood and bomb him. Isn't that terrorism? I think it is.

[Spentastic]

102. Of course it is

But what's your point?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

108. Why aren't we asking if the Loyalists are terrorists?

Why is it that the question begins and ends with the IRA, but the Loyalists and British get a free pass on murder and terrorism?

From what I understand, the British have their own island.

[Spentastic]

116. Bollocks

There are posts in this very thread condemning both official government policy and the dubious actions of the UDA, UFF UVF etc. etc.

The question was are the IRA terrorists. Unless you agree that men, women and children out for a Sunday stroll are legitimate targets then I'm afraid that the IRA are indefensible.

[Padraig18]

123. Thank you!

They do have their own island, and Ulster would be a much happier place if they got back on it, and left OUR island--- the one they STOLE--- alone.

[Spentastic]

127. I would have thought

That one so militant would join his bothers in arms to overthrow the British opressors.

Or are you strictly a keyboard warrior?

[Padraig18]

Don't even go there...

... if that's all you have--- an ad hominem.

[Spentastic]

139. Ad hominem?

No this would be an ad hominem.

You are a terrorist apologist.

Apart from it isn't, because that's axactly what you are.

Let's try a little logic test.

a. Terrorists kill women and children not connected with "legitimate' targets.

b. The IRA have targeted women and children not connected with "legitimate' targets.

If "a" is true then the IRA must be terrorists, yet I've not seen you condemn them. Why not? Furthermore it's pertinent that you do not appear to reside in the Republic yet give the impression that you speak for all Irish people. I'd guess that's exactly the kind of thinking that would make you a firm supporter and possible backer of IRA violence.

[Padraig18]

147. You've not read post #13 then

I make quite clear my beliefs as to what constitute legitimate military targets, and what does not.

The rules prevent me from replying appropriately to the remainder of your post.

[Spentastic]

148. Yes and I'll ask you directly

Are the IRA terrorists?

[Padraig18]

156. There is nothing ambiguous in what I wrote. n/t

[Spentastic]

160. Yes there is

You have said it's O.K to kill policemen and soldiers. But you have not stated whether YOU think the IRA are terrorists.

[Padraig18]

163. I've made it quite clear.

Murder of non-combatants is murder.

[Jen72]

301. In your country,,,,

the murder of a police officer carries the Death Penalty in many states. So why is it ok for members of the IRA to kill Police Officers? What makes the killing of a police officer not murder?

[Maeve]

304. Sigh. Not defending the killing, but...

In Northern Ireland, the police have been repeatedly shown to be taking the Loyalist side and involved in both killings and cover-ups. In 1997, a Catholic man, Robert Hamill, was stomped to death by a loyalist mob in Portadown as RUC men watched idly nearby. The newer police force, implimented in 2001 still retains strong traces of the former Orange-dominated order.

In discussing the violence, we have to look at the context. In the past 30 years, tens of thousands of Catholics have been forced from their homes. Catholic school children have been harrassed for months for daring to walk thru a Protestant area to go to school. Catholics are still over twice as likely to be unemployed as Protestants.

The breaches of the peace since 1998 have been from dissident republican groups calling themselves "real IRA" or "Continuity IRA" and are actively working for the destruction of the Good Friday Agreement that over 70% of NI voted for. they muddy the waters and should be treated as the terrorists they are. But they are not the same organization as the IRA. And much more violence has come from the various loyalist paramilitaries over the same time frame.

And for anyone seeking a chronology of the Peace Process, here's the BBC link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/539391.stm

While I agree that civil war might well ensue with the withdrawl of British military might, I'm not entirely convinced that civil war isn't exactly what they have had under British watch.

[Jen72]

306. I am aware of the Catholic school children and

all the other stuff. There are rebid extremeists on both sides.
Many of the Loyalists have been had family, living in Ireland for centuries. So it is not entirly the fault of the British.

I personally loathe Dr Ian Paisley, he is every bit as responceable for the bloodshed as Gerry Adams, IMO.
I understand the differences between the IRA and and real IRA, whoever
I have lived it London through out most of the IRA campaign of violence and there was no distinction then. I lived with the terror campaign so I can have no symapthy for the IRA's campaign and the people that set up bombs, are not patriots and disgusted most catholic
Irish friend that I have.
My comment about the police is that some think whilst civillian deaths are bad, killing the police and soliders was ok, they are fair game. Except the IRA killed London Police Officers and the Queen's guard who were not in Northern Ireland, nothing to do with the conflict.
I just find the idea of condoning the murder of police officers sickening. I know the Police can take sides, they can be bastards but
it would never be tolerated in the USA.

I see that alot of Northern Ireland is hate filled and bitter on both sides.
I agree there has been a kind of civil war in Northern Ireland, but our presence may well have prevented something on the scale of all out war.
I think the Ulster people should have there say but I do not believe
it will mean unification, trust has to be built.
I feel that the British will withdraw but not with elections looming and UN involvment may give Bush an opening to interfere and nobody wants that to happen.

[Padraig18]

308. I do not condone the muder of policemen...

.. who do not 'cross the line' and become active partisans. If they are simply policemen, they, too, are non-combatants.

[truebrit71]

129. Blah blah blah blah

Just beating a dead horse man...it's ours, we stole it fair and square and you just need to deal with it pal...

[Padraig18]

133. No

What *YOU* need to 'deal with' is the idea that we won't ALLOW you to keep what's rightfully OURS!

'We stand at Rossa's grave not in sadness, but in exultation of spirit... This is a place of peace sacred to the dead, where men should speak with all charity and all restraint; but I hold it a Christian thing... to hate evil, to hate untruth, to hate oppression, and hating them to strive to overthrow them... while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree, shall never be at peace.'

[Jen72]

300. Is civil war happy enough for you?

Because if we withdrew are troops right now for Ulster,
that would be a very likely outcome.

[Padraig18]

356. Says a great deal about the status quo, doesn't it?

As long as that festering boil you call 'Northern Ireland' is left to fester, nothing will ever get better; time and 'patience' have done fuck all to improve things. the *only* thing that will improve anything is an honest, democratic solution to the problem, i.e., a plebiscite. Whichever side wins will then at least be armed with the moral authority to deal with the remaining problems, an authority that neither side possesses now.

[Maeve]

107. Both IRA and Loyalists have engaged in terrorism, true

By making the point of only one side, the ensuing argument involves more heat than light.

A plague on all terrorism, not just the side we don't like!

[Padraig18]

125. Indeed, Maeve

Everyone always wants to make it black and white, with the IRA playing the 'bad guy' role. Ain't quite that simple, is it?

[Maeve]

132. Nothing ever is

For example, the people of the Six Counties DID vote to remain in the UK, but in an election that was rigged and gerrymandered enough to make the Texas Lege look like pikers. And citizenship there has been a very inconsistant and inequitable thing... In some ways, it's been more like the situation used to be in South Africa.

We can only hope that it will finally be resolved with ballots as opposed to bullets.

[Padraig18]

134. Aye!

A UN-monitored plebiscite would satisfy me, win, lose or draw.

[Woodstock]

111. England, get the hell out of Ireland, now

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woodstock]

137. Why don't you come over here and occupy our country

and try to make me? Be sure to bring your army to back you up.

[Jen72]

302. Your country would not tolerate the actions of the IRA is

they put one bomb in Time Square, let along a compaign stretching two decades!!!

Our army is currently with yours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[truebrit71]

182. We aren't IN ireland...

The people of northern ireland want to remain a part of the United Kingdom. Why should they leave? Where would they go?

This is a cause that has been celebrated and enflamed by people in the US that should just mind their own damned business and set their own house in order first. There are countless numbers of innocent civilians, men women and children that have been murdered by US money funneled to the IRA over the years...Who weeps for them? The 'patriots'?

What happened centuries ago is over.

Move on.

[Padraig18]

206. Move OUT is a better choice!

I was BORN in Ireland, so don't go all fuzzy on the issues. Your anecdotal assurances about the people's 'desires' and 'happiness' at being part of your... *spits*.... 'monarchy' are NOT supported by a free, open and transparently-honest VOTE at any place or time in history.

[Uzybone]

118. They are both but....

but the intentional murder and maining of innocent civilians will out weigh any admiration I may have for thier patriotism. They are Terrorists first and anything else second.

[Walt Starr]

128. It's clear for all to see, this issue is as divisive as

I/P

Interesting. I'm not revealing how I voted, though.

[fla nocount]

135. Anyone keeping track of the Poll? 36 vs 36

Too close to call. Walt Starr just evened it up. I'm not revealing which way his vote went though.

[Walt Starr]

141. ROFLMAO

I didn't post until loooooong after I voted.

BUAHAHAHAHAHA

[Spentastic]

143. I am

And I'm close to throwing my computer out of the window. I've been close to IRA bombings and let me tell you if that's what patriots do then those 19 brave muslim hijackers deserve a patriotic statue of their very own,

[Walt Starr]

149. That's the thing about the words "terrorist" and "patriot"

George Washington and his crew would ahve been "terrorists" to the British. Since they won, they're forever remembered as "patriots".

To every American I know, the 19 hijackers are "terrorists", but apparently many in the Islamic world consider them "martyrs" and "heroes".

To the Nazis, the French Resistance were "terrorists", but after the liberation they were hailed as "patriots".

In Israel, Menachim Begin is hailed as a "patriot", but before the formation on the Israeli state, he was one of the ugliest and most dangerous "terrorists" known to the British empire.

To the Palestinians, Arafat is a "patriot" even as our own government refers to him as a "terrorist".

I hate throwing these words around because when you come down to it regardless of motivation, everybody I've mentioned on all sides of all conflicts were just plain "killers".

[Spentastic]

153. Well said

That's kind of my point. Some people seem to think that killing for a good reason is fine.

I don't agree when other avenues are available.

[Walt Starr]

Resorting to violence as a means of resolving conflicts is a sign

of abject failure, plain and simple.

[Padraig18]

155. Rhetorical question:

What if a 'politiocal solution' is unattainable? What if a plebiscite, e.g., is absolutely vetoed by the occupying power? What then?

[Spentastic]

158. Look, How many votes do you want?

Furthermore democracy does not mean allowing a simple majority to define policy.

What would you do with the protestants? Have them all deported? What if the plebiscite went against your wishes. Would Republicans just drop the issue? Unlikely.

[Padraig18]

159. 50% + 1

the remainder is speculation and opinion. No Protestants were deported previously, and no Irishman would advocate that they be now, either. Ireland guarantess religious tolerance-- it's quite as free as America, if not more so.

[Spentastic]

162. How naive

What if 51% of Americans voted to disenfranchise blacks? Would it be right. Would there be huge unrest?

It's not as simple as you'd wish it to be.

[Padraig18]

164. It is *quite* that simple.

No one is talking of 'disenfranchising' anyone; the issue is self-determination.

[truebrit71]

186. And the majority of the people that actually bloody live there

have determined that they are perfectly happy being British Citizens.

[Padraig18]

189. There was a free, fair and honest plebiscite about that question? n/t

[truebrit71]

193. Fair, free and honest according to whom? You and the terrorist apologists?

No. Opinion polls have been conducted time and time again.

I have said for the longest time that there needs to be a referendum on the issue. Do you wish to become part of Eire (and if you're a women automatically give up control of your body) or remain as part of the United Kingdom.

Simple.

The only problem is that when the vote comes back will the terrorists and their apologists finally SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GO AWAY?

I tend to doubt that.

[Padraig18]

195. You may doubt what you like.

What you may NOT say is that there has ever been a free, fair and transparently-honest plebiscite on the matter. I would suggest one could be had under the auspices of the UN, or President Carter's group.

Ball to you.

[truebrit71]

198. Please find the post where I said there HAD been one...

Next?

[Padraig18]

200. Precisely my point--- there never *has been* one!

Next!

[truebrit71]

216. Yeah, except for that anti-abortion thing...

just as free...

[Padraig18]

225. Then let that be a factor...

... to be weighed in a free, fair and transparently-honest plebiscite.

[Bridget Burke]

264. Abortion is not exactly legal in the North, either

Here's a summary of the situation:

www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/ireland6.asp

Pro choice people are still working in the Republic, as well. Of course, you realize that Birth Control & Divorce have been legal there for some time.

[Padraig18]

349. Thank you!

I'm becoming quite exasperated at those who keep beating the ROI over the head with the abortion question, as though that lone fact somehow makes the Republic Stalinist Russia, rather than what it is, in truth--- a free, prosperous and vibrant parliamentary republic with and admirable human-rights record and broad, deeply tolerant, constitutionally-guaranteed civil liberties.

[SiobhanClancy]

168. The you do what people like George Washington and Michael Collins did..

And work,through the applying of some "gentle pressure",toward getting the occupying power in more of a reasonable frame of mind,AFTER which a "political solution" may be attained.

[Padraig18]

173. Well said.

I do NOT advocate violence, but neither should 'gentle pressure' be ruled out, when all remaining tools have been rendered useless...

[JVS]

138. It seems odd.

The Irish and the British both have far better things to do than kill each other.

[Padraig18]

140. If they'd leave...

... they wouldn't be killed. :shrug:

The Republic of Ireland has one of the lowest murder rates in the world.

[JVS]

144. IRA is barely active. Almost nobody cares enough about this to fight.

This issue should be settled politically. It is only a few extremists keep any violence going on.

And it isn't worth it for Ireland to turn this into some kind of Balkan-style ethnic cleansing. First of all Ireland is entering a new age of economic well-being, and secondly if this were to become a war with the UK, Ireland would be clobbered.

[Padraig18]

151. The *Irish* would love a political solution

A plebiscite--- democracy in as near pure a form as it gets--- is rejected out of hand by the UK.

[JVS]

157. What about the Northern Irish government?

http://www.ni-assembly.gov.uk/
Don't they make the call in such matters?

[Padraig18]

161. No.

The people themselves should make the call. Asking if the Assembly should decide the question is like asking if the Lege should.

Let the people vote. :hi:

[JVS]

165. If you vote in the right assembly then you can't you get what you want?

[Padraig18]

170. No, you cant.

The Assembly has NO power to return Ulster to Ireland--- only a treaty, and new "Act of Union" or a plebiscite can do that, peacefully.

[JVS]

175. oh

Well I hope that there is either a plebiscite or that both countries are swallowed up into the EU so that the bickering can end. I really think that both groups have more common interest that conflict. Among the Irish, English, and Nothern Irish I know it sure seems that way.

[Padraig18]

176. True

It is a simple question of being granted the right to self-determination, the recognition of the people's sovereign right to chart their own course, rather than follow one that was imposed on them through force of arms.

[truebrit71]

191. The Majority Of People That Live There Wish To Remain Part Of The UK

Was that easy enough for you to understand??

[Padraig18]

192. And the free, fair and transparently-honest plebiscite on that...

... was held when?

[Jen72]

303. Maybe when all sides have enough trust in each other

not to fight if the result is not what they want.
Many of the Loyalists are from a long line of Irishmen, born and breed
so the British withdrawing may not prevent trouble.
The peace is still new, still fragile and people on both sides are very bitter and angry.

[Padraig18]

307. It will help.

When the police, courts and Army peform their duties fairly and impartially for a few years, Catholics may again begin to trust them, and that will help enormously; at this point, however, what little trust there is is both new and fragile, because the police, courts and Army routinely sided with the UDF types for so many years.

[number six]

130. It's an unholy mess

Yes the British should get out of Ulster, but unfortunately centuries of British Government Imperialism have created a situation where the majority of people there want to remain part of the UK. These people are colonists, but then so are the vast majority of us North Americans. Should we leave here? I am definitely for a United Ireland and frankly despise most of the Ulster Unionist politicians, but that won't change the fact that a majority does not want re-unification. Whatever they are, the British Establishment are master manipulators.

[Padraig18]

136. Until there is a free, fair and honest vote...

... no one can actually say that they wish to 'remain' part of the UK, or not.

[number six]

150. The figures

According to the 1991 Census its 43.7% catholic to 48.7% Protestant, 12.6% other and undeclared. To win, we'd have to get every single Catholic vote plus at least half of the others. Basically we'd have to get some Prods to vote for a republic. What do you reckon? If it were 51% in favour, would they let Ireland unite, or just divide Ulster further along sectarian lines.

[number six]

152. Correction

Sorry, I got the other figures wrong, it's actually 8%

[Padraig18]

154. Actually...

I seriously doubt every Protestant would vote to 'remain' part of the UK, nor would every RC vote to join the Republic of Ireland. I have no crystal ball, but I would be interested in seeing the results of a free, fair and honest election. Shouldn't people have the right to determine their own national affiliation? :hi:

[Sesquipedalian]

142. rather useless word

The correct answer is probably both I imagine.

You could say the same for the black and tans as well..

If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man

June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth Division Commander RIC Munster

[mot78]

169. There terrorists

they kill innocent people, and use terror tactics.

[Padraig18]

171. As did...

Washington, Begin, the Polish and French resistance movements...

[MadHound]

172. Let me weigh in here

As one whose ancestorswere killed by the British, starved by the British, tortured, beaten and raped by the British, with the added insult of being driven off of their own true land by the British, I consider the IRA to be true patriots who are standing up to centuries old tyranny. While I do not condone their killing of civilians and innocents, I recognize that in any such war civilians and innocents are going to be killed, both by accident, and deliberately in the heat of the moment. I also recognize the plain fact that without the IRA and other armed militias throughout the ages Ireland would still be under the iron thumb of the British in total. Every step forward towards complete Irish independence has come through both the words AND the blood and sweat of the Irish patriots.

I would love to visit Ireland, to look upon the grand expanses of that beautiful green land. I wish that when I do visit Ireland that I visit a land that is completely free, not just half free. Britain holds onto Northern Ireland like an old whore holding onto her last piece of real jewlery. She thinks that it still imparts dignity and class, when in reality it just emphasizes the squalor and hopelessness that she has descended to. It is more than time for Britain to release her hold upon Ireland. Only then can she hold her head high in the world community.

[Padraig18]

174. I salute you!

Well and elegantly put! :hi:

[MadHound]

177. Thank you!

And I return the salute:hi::toast: You and I haven't been on the same side on some issues, but on this one I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Padraig18]

178. DU threads tend to polarize people...

... who IRL probably agree on about 95% of most issues. No blood, no foul, eh? :toast:

[truebrit71]

187. The people that live in Northern Ireland ARE free...

..especially the women folk who WOULDN'T be free if they became part of Eire...

[Padraig18]

190. Then why aren't they allowed to vote in a...

... free, fair and transparently-honest plebiscite, if they're so bloody free?

[truebrit71]

194. BECAUSE THE MAJORITY ARE HAPPY THE WAY THINGS ARE!!!!

Jeezuz it ain't that hard to figure out mate....

[Padraig18]

199. What's hard to figure out is...

... why the "Mother of Parliaments" inists on refusing to allow the people themselves to affirm your assertion in a free, open and transparently-honest plebiscite. Rather undemocratic of you, old bean...

[truebrit71]

208. How often has the question been asked?

I for one would all in favour of it. Hold a referendum. Vote. Be done with it.

The real question is would it do any good? What happens to those people that don't want anything to do with Eire? Re-locate them? Where? Who pays for it? What happens to those that want to become part of Eire but are in the minority? Ship them off to Dublin? Should there be a referendum held every ten years? twenty? Whenever there is a significant change in demographic?

A vote will solve nothing.

[Padraig18]

212. "A vote will solve nothing."

It would certainly answer the question of what the people of Ulster want.

The rest are details that can be worked out by standard means, like negotiations which result in a treaty. How were the problems resolved following the American Revolution? Not a unique issue, nor an insoluble one.

[truebrit71]

218. How will that solve anything?

If the majority vote is to stay as part of the UK will the republicans simply shrug their shoulders, belt up and bugger off...

I just don't see that as being realistic...

[Padraig18]

240. Question:

Where do you buy your crystal ball? I've not been able to find one...

[Rhiannon12866]

221. I am in favor of a united Ireland and believe the British should

pack up and go home. I never realized how strongly I felt on the subject until visiting Ireland and talking with IRA sympathizers soliciting signatures on the streets for their petitions. Actual IRA members would have been arrested on sight. These were the days of the hunger strikes. My dad's family came from Ireland and I am deeply moved by the stories of those who left Ireland to escape the famine and those who never made it to America. Eamon De Valera (who was also an American) is a hero and a patriot to me and I am most sorry that he didn't live to see a united Ireland. I voted "patriots" because I believe in their cause, though I cannot condone the murder of innocents. Sigh.:shrug:

[truebrit71]

227. But what if the people that ACTUALLY live there DON'T?

What then??

[Rhiannon12866]

231. Put it to a vote and find out. n/t

:shrug:

[MadHound]

250. I have a solution, but I really wouldn't wish it on anyone

Those people who wish to relocate can pay the way my great grandfather's father, mother and uncle paid. With a boatride in a ship that could barely float, amongst their fellow countrymen who were deadly sick from the starvation and want visited upon them by the British before being driven from their home. But let me say, my great grandfather's father, mother and uncle died during their relocation.

But as I said earlier, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. However, I do think that whatever tab is incurred from granting the North it's freedom should be paid for by the British. It is, after all of these long centuries, the least they could do.

A vote will solve everything, so long as it is cast fairly and cleanly. A country artificially divided is an anethema to civilization. Haven't we learned this much from history?

[Padraig18]

252. Most nations have learned it...

... with one glaring exception...*cough*...Britain...*cough*....

[Jen72]

305. Firstly my country is over two thousand years old....

And no country as old as ours has clean hands or has a history
free from Barbarism. Not France, Germany,Spain, The Middle East,
Denmark no one.
The English do have a terrible history of brutal Kings and Queens, invasions, stealing India etc. The USA has a shorter history but every bit as bloody as ours. Our government has never executed any terrorists, against the the majority opinion of the British people, who see people die, while shopping.
No American President in the last twenty years would have allowed, a terrorist, who killed Americans to live beyond an execution, with blanket media coverage.

But a vote can not change anything, if the people are not able to change with it. I am all for a referendum but there is work to be done first. There own parliement is a step in the right direction.
Those election results will say much about the feelings of the people of NI. The fears of most people involved in The Good Friday Agreement is the peace process falling apart. If a referendum was won by the unifiers, the Protestants will be subject to harrassment and risk being driven out of their country. If the Seperatist win, then the Protestants will make Catholic lives hell. They prosperity that Belfast has seen, throught tourism and business could vanish.
The two sides have to show that they can work together before
a referendum is done.
Even if they did unify, the North and South will still be divide by religion.
Americas should know that democracy has terrible results

[Padraig18]

312. My hat is off to you.

You are the first Brit to write anything here that concedes anything whatsoever to do with the harm you have done to other nations, in a sober, non-flippant manner. Furthermore, I agree with much of what you say-- not all, but much.

Part of what has so fueled Irish rage for so many years has been the state of absolute denial adopted by so many British people; it has not helped matters any that so many have adopted the 'get over it' attitude with regards to the unnatural division of what was, until 80-odd years ago, a single national and political entity.

If there were more in the Uk with your attitude, we might well be further down the road than we are now.

[MadHound]

232. Free?? Free!!

Free to do as they wish, until their wish conflicts with the whim of their British master. Free to conduct their own affairs, until they start treading on British toes. Free to have open and honest elections unless the ballot issue takes them out of British hands. All of the British colonies have experienced the freedom that Britain offers, and all have rejected it, because the freedom Britain offers is tyranny by any other name.

Ireland was Britain's first colony, and out of pride and hubris the British are determined that at least part of it will be their last. Why not show wisdom and maturity and let Ireland, all of Ireland, be free from the British yoke? The phrase "aging gracefully" applies to both individual and countries alike.

[MadHound]

233. n/t

please delete

[MadHound]

234. n/t

please delete

[fla nocount]

257. "Like an old whore hanging on to her last piece of

real jewelry." What a beautiful and descriptive piece of prose. I felt the need for the quote in my header hoping that it would get your piece read.......so many damn posts on this thread. The whole post is a nice piece of work. England needs to let go of all her petty and pompous past starting with the monarchy. The Welsh ignore her, the Scots deplore her and the Irish abhore her. She would lose nothing but control and discontent by unlocking the shackles as proximity alone guarantees a working relationship in the future.

Just my take on it as I'm probably not as aware of all the issues as I should before daring to post. However, if 250+ other posters can go off half-baked, why not me?

Killing and fighting is bad no doubt and in the end benefits nobody. But, oppression, genocide and and theft are bad as well and does benefit someone. The difference between good and evil, terrorist and patriot = who wins. America and her history are prime examples of this truth.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

179. Who says you can't be a terrorist and a patriot?

[mitchum]

180. They are both (as is often the case)

[Undemcided]

230. The IRA are scum.

I have no time for loyalist terrorists either.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/the_omagh_bomb/default.stm

[Padraig18]

241. And the nation that practiced genocide on the Irish is *not* scum? n/t

[Undemcided]

243. You go and celebrate murderers if you wish.

I'll not be joining you in that.

[Padraig18]

245. Read post #13

That's my opinion on what is and is not murder.

[Undemcided]

249. Legitimate targets?

So politicians are legitimate targets to the IRA? All terrorists’ organizations need the very freedoms that they seek to destroy in order to survive.

[Padraig18]

251. Was Hitler a legitimate Allied target? Was Mussolini?

Spare me a lecture on freedom, Johnny Bull. The sheer hypocrisy of it is enough to make me lose my supper...

[Undemcided]

280. Of course he was ....

Of course Hitler was a legitimate target; we were at war. Now you remember that little thing called World War II that the Southern Irish sat out don’t you? Talking of hypocrisy why don’t you mention that Sinn Fein carried out sabotage on the mainland against the Allies whilst we were at war or the fact that De Valera called in the German embassy in Dublin to express his condolences at the death of Adolf.

The notion that the IRA is an army of any sort that is laughable. They, like their cousins to the North, are no more than a collection of criminals who wrap themselves in their respective flags in the hope of getting some sort of legitimacy. If they ever showed up on a field of battle it would be a re-run of Knosale.

As for the Johnny Bull remark is that the best you’ve got? What about the Irish raiding the mainland for slaves. How far back does your indignation go?

[Padraig18]

235. Has it ever occurred to some here that this isn't the proper question?

Should one be asking why and IRA exists, after 800 years of British occupation, theft, enslavement, genocide, rape, pillage and plunder? In particular, should AMERICANS even be asking, or have you forgotten the origins of your own freedom? That is what this is--- a fight for freedom.

Would you have said, "Oh, no problem", had the British proposed to keep the Southern colonies after Lord Cornwallis was defeated at Yorktown, simply because the British alleged that "they like us down there", or would you have fought on, until the whole of the 13 colonies were free, and part of one *united* nation?

Don't instantly respond with a flame, please--- actually think it through. It's no more complex than that.

[Rhiannon12866]

242. Good answer. n/t

[SiobhanClancy]

244. That's exactly the question..

If the British had done that,as well as threatened to bring even more of their military resources to crush the colonists,and then gerrymandered a region to their liking to make sure that their people(loyalists)had a majority...how would the rest of the states have liked it? And the Irish have centuries of oppression and occupation which the American colonists did not. It's gratifying,though,that so many people who have voted in this poll seem to understand how things are. Isn't it also worth noting that the American mainstream press seems to report on IRA actions while virtually ignoring Loyalist paramilitary atrocities?

[Rhiannon12866]

246. It's the same for the I/P situation

One side are "terrorists" and the other side are just "defending themselves," according to the mainstream American press.:shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

254. Hi fellow Irish Slav, :) I mean Hi Rhi

I agree. I saw early I think it was Padrig saying we must look to why the IRA started, and you gotta wonder about that too,

[Rhiannon12866]

256. That's the big question, isn't it, John?

When people are oppressed, and we are talking about more than one situation here, their desperation makes them react in desperate ways, not all of them very good. Violence is never the answer, as we have seen in more than one situation, because it is invariably met with more and greater violence, as we have seen. It is just tragic when people feel as if they just have no other choice!;(

Hi, fellow Irish-Slav, yourself! You knew I would get pulled into this!:hi:

[JohnKleeb]

294. Yeah true Rhi

:hi: Had a nice talk with you. I will give you my report firsthand when I get home today. Irish Slavs rock :) heh, you, me, Kucinich, and countless others heh. Serious had this been 1914 around I would be as abandant for Irish indepedence as I would for the Slovenians, Slovaks, and others to get freedom from Austria Hungary.

[Maeve]

247. There's a link in post #73 to document some of those

The opening poll question is too simplistic to deal with the issue at all, at all.

[Padraig18]

248. Aye.

Pardon me for a bit, while I'm at my tea.

BBS. :grouphug:

[emad]

258. Mostly mercenaries in collusion with other mercenaries on the

so-called loyalist side, bankrolled by the P2...

NI Police Service chief Commander Hugh Order is on record as saying that in the last 40 years Belfast has been in the hands of drug barons and money launderers whose collusion with renegades in the military and securitiy services to cover up gangland atrocities has been deliberately dubbed 'sectarian'.

Two big enquiries - the Saville enquiry into the 1972 'Bloody Sunday' killings and the Stevens enquiry into the 1990/91 destruction of evidence at a NI police station - all point in the direction of organised foreign crime using Irish politics as a staging ground for its own criminal agenda.

Ordinary Irish people have ben sucked into a turf war and treated like puppets.

[Nihil]

262. Now that bit I can definitely agree with ...

> Ordinary Irish people have been sucked into a turf war and treated
> like puppets.

... especially if you expand it to include "ordinary British people"
as well.

It strikes me that the vast majority of victims (from whichever group
of terrorists) have been ordinary people: men, women and children who
have not been part of any armed struggle, just in the wrong place at
the wrong time.

There have been some victims that can be perceived as "justified targets"
by whoever was aiming a bullet at them (e.g., British soldiers when
viewed by the IRA, IRA when viewed by UDA/UDF/Uxx, rival gangs in
the crime world) but most have been simply unlucky. The irony is
that their bad fortune usually adds bitterness, anger and more death.

Committing violence against unarmed civilians is a crime against
humanity, regardless of whether or not you are wearing a uniform,
have a "named" organisation behind you or are simply one lone nutcase
driven by paranoia and hatred.

Nihil

[Padraig18]

265. No disagreement on that

Non-combatants are, by definition, innocent, and their deaths are murders, plain and simple...

[NewYorkerfromMass]

270. I long knew this website was filled w/IRA sympathisers and other such

morally fogged people but these poll results are fucking embarrassing.
I suppose some of you believe it's O.K. to support "the cause" but not the methods- but to glorify anyone who whould kill innocents in the name of "patriotism" is really missing some important aspects of being a member of the human race.

[Padraig18]

271. We must be reading different threads.

I have seen *no one* glorify the murder of non-combatants, and am intensely interested in having that post or posts pointed out. As regards your embarrassment, that's a personal problem; perhaps rather than being morally 'fogged', perhaps there are more morally LUCID people here than you would care to acknowledge...

[Padraig18]

272. PS, re: poll results

You can look at that Wellstone poll and call THIS poll's result 'embarrassing? :eyes:

[bitchkitty]

273. I voted not sure -

I've always had sympathy for the Irish, being part Irish myself, but living in England, I heard both sides. I guess it just depends on your perspective. If I lived in Belfast, I might not care to listen to the other side.

[Maeve]

275. Listening to the other side

Part of the problem is the human tendency to demonize the other side and raise our own POV to the level of TRUTH.

All sides in this matter have innocent blood on their hands. All sides have valid complaints against the others. Recriminations do bugger-all to help the matter and will solve nothing. An honest broker could probably make headway, but I'm not sure who is capable of that role (I think several participants are honorable, but not trusted by all sides--Clinton came closest recently, I believe). Perhaps the only "remedy" is time; time to let old wounds heal and old dogs give up the fight.

[Padraig18]

277. I've often thought that...

... a 'truth and reconciliation' commission, similar to SA's, would be a good place to start. I know on a personal level that a great deal of my *personal* resentment and anger has to do with either the dismissive 'get over it' attitude on the part of many Brits or the 'we took it fair and sqaure' attitude. To be sure, many Ulster Protestants have similar grievances, but a complete lack of validation for just grievances helps solve nothing at all, at all...

[JackRiddler]

279. You should have had a fourth answer -

BOTH.

[don jose]

283. IRA terrorists are scum

the IRA are scum.
palestinian suicide bombers are scum.
no matter how rightous their causes may be murdering innocent civilians is despicable. two wrongs dont make a right.

[Padraig18]

284. Is the UDF scum as well? n/t

[Undemcided]

286. Of course they are ....

I want all the UDF and IRA gone. Take your moral relativism somewhere else. What are your feelings about people who shoot abortion doctors? Are they acceptable targets are do your morals flap in the breeze?

[Padraig18]

287. Nice, not-so-subtle, anti-Catholic dig

Abortion has FUCK ALL to do with Ulster. Assuming that you can read, I've made it crystal clear on numerous occasions who is and is not a legitimate target. Occupying armies and their political leadership are always legitimate targets; innocent civilians are not.

[Undemcided]

309. anti-Catholic dig?

Oh so now I'm a bigot? Clearly you're loosing the argument here. Please respond to my other post as well.

[Padraig18]

313. I have responded on that topic repeatedly.

I oppose the killing of non-combatants---period. And yes, an anti-Catholic dig; why didn't you use an example besides an abortionist? Does the word 'Catholic' always bring to mind 'abortion? Are they joined at the hip in your mind?

[Undemcided]

316. You're loosing it.

It was you who brought up religion, not me.

[Padraig18]

322. Yeah, right. Nice bob and weave. n/t

[Undemcided]

323. Is it you my friend who is bobbing and weaving ...

.. resorting to insults whilst your answers contain little substance.

[Padraig18]

337. My answers contain facts, when facts are called for.

Your posts contain stereotypical, bigoted attacks on Irishmen.

[Undemcided]

359. bigoted attacks?

Perhaps you might give me an example? All of my bigotries are on a case-by-case basis.

[fla nocount]

285. Kick. For shits and giggles.

This was a fantastic post for the passions and reparte alone. One last pip on the front page.

[Padraig18]

289. Heh

I'm one of the few here who doesn't think that 'clearing the air' on an issue is neccessarily a bad thing; candidate 'bashing' gets old, but I see nothing bad about spirited debate over legitimate differences.

Thanks for the kick.:hi:

[alwynsw]

299. Pro IRA, anti violence

In any armed struggle, there is bound to be collateral damage. Tragic but understandable.

When innocents are the target they cease to be collateral damage, thereby reducing a once legitimate means of resistance to terrorism.

It makes as much sense to bomb civilian shopping areas, churches, etc. as it would to attack Iceland because of the Bosnian issue.

[Valarauko]

315. Terrorism is not about what you fight for

It's how you fight.

If you deliberately target civilians, you're a terrorist, doesn't matter if you're fighting for the best cause ever.

[maveric]

317. I had no idea this thread would have turned out like this.

I only wanted to see what the concensus would be via poll, even though I figured that there may be a couple of arguments.

[SiobhanClancy]

318. Are you surprised at the poll results? n/t

[maveric]

319. Slightlty. I thought that the IRA would get a little more support here.

IMO, the IRA are left-leaning freedom fighters trying to break the chains of opression. Much like the founding fathers and the Hungarian FFs of the 50's.
The poll is close though and the sentiments are not what I had expected.

[SiobhanClancy]

320. Some of us agree with you..

I really think a large part of it is the pro-British American mainstream press. I did an experiment..asked a friend what she thought about the IRA. Her answer: "I understand how you feel about Ireland,but I could never support terrorists". Then I asked her what she thought about the UDF. Answer: "I never heard of it" Next question:"What do you think about the Rev. Ian Paisley?" Answer: "I know the clergy always does everything they can to promote peace over there. Is he a priest or something? ".

[mrfrapp]

327. I stand corrected

"IMO, the IRA are left-leaning freedom fighters trying to break the chains of opression."

Thanks for that. I didn't realise I was oppressing anyone when I was caught in the bomb blast in Warrington, England.



on edit: link corrected and no I wasn't injured.

[Silverhair]

324. Modern IRA are terrorists, the old IRA were patriots.

Hundreds of years ago England invaded and conquered Ireland, and settled a lot of people in what is now Northern Ireland. The decendents of those settlers of over 400 years ago are almost all Protestant. The Roman Catholic church still writes the laws of the Republic of Ireland. (Don't even think of talking about gay marriage or abortion there. Artificial birth control is still illegal, unless things have changed. No divorce either, even if you have not lived with your spouse for 40 years and have lived with another mate for 35 years, you are still married to the first one. If any of this has changed I will gladly accept correction.)Northern Ireland is 2/3 protestant. Republic of Ireland is 98% Catholic. The 2% are mostly close to the border of Northern Ireland. The average Irish doesn't know any Protestants.

In the early 20th century the IRA revolted against British rule, and were granted their independence, but the counties in Northern Ireland, voted to stay with England. So the country is split.

The modern IRA seeks not to liberate Ireland, but to conquer Northern Ireland.

Hundreds of years ago the morality of invading another country wasn't a question. If you were strong enough to invade, you did it. I will not judge the past, especially the far past, by the standards of today. It is impossible to right some wrongs, and the results must be lived with. Today, 2/3 of the people in the North not only want to live under British rule, but they themselves will take up arms and fight against Catholic rule. For that matter, I don't want the Pope writing my laws either.

So the modern IRA are terrorists attempting to impose their will on a population that has rejected them.

[Padraig18]

326. Why *facts* are more useful than 'conventional wisdom'

1921 The Partition of Ireland

The People Endorse the Republic

The Irish Republic was endorsed by the Irish people in 1918. In the British general election held in December, Sinn Féin won 73 out the 105 Irish seats. Sinn Féin candidates were pledged not to participate in the Westminster parliament but to convene an Irish Parliament in Dublin. On January 21st, 1919, Dial Eireann was established. This parliament of the democratically elected representatives of the Irish people ratified the establishment of the Irish Republic and declared the independence of the nation. They also adopted a democratic program in which they declared to have Ireland "ruled in accordance with the principles of liberty, equality and justice for all." A cabinet was appointed, courts established and the Irish Republican Army brought under the control of the Minister of Defense.

In September 1919, a British military proclamation declared Dial Eireann "illegal". All Irish republican papers were suppressed and the British unleased a reign of terror which continued until the signing of a truce in July of 1921. A British Labour Party commission reported in December 1920 that "the atmosphere of terrorism which has been created and the provocative behavior of the armed servants of the Crown, quite apart from specific 'reprisals', are sufficient in themselves to arouse in our hearts feelings of the deepest horror and shame."

The IRA fought back against British army/police terror using guerrilla tactics which were later adopted by other liberation movements.

In the general election of 1920, Sinn Féin obtained 80% of the seats, winning a majority in 28 of the 32 counties. It was to be the last national election that the Irish people as a whole were to participate in.



Partition and the "Government of Ireland Act"

Britain's answer to the risen people of Ireland was the Government of Ireland Act passed in Westminster in December 1920. This set up two subordinate parliaments in Ireland: one for six counties, another for twenty-six counties. The six counties remained under direct British rule with 80% of the powers of government reserved to Westminster. The twenty-two counties received dominion status.

No Irishman from any part of Ireland voted for this statute, for even the unionists -- the 22% of the population who approved of union with Britain and most of whom lived within 35 miles of Belfast -- did not want their country to be divided. Edward Carson, the unionist leader, said: "I know Ulster does not want this parliament." But when the six-county parliament and government were set up they accepted partition.

The scheme for partition government was also put to Dial Eireann representatives in London in December 1921, and under threat from the British prime minister, Lloyd George, of "immediate and terrible war" they signed a "treaty" incorporating these terms. The 26 county dominion state was imposed upon the Irish people by British arms. The 26 county state was established by a bloody civil war against Irish republican who never accepted the partition of their country.

Two Neo-Colonial and Artificial States

The 26 County state, later to become established internationally as the Republic of Ireland, has also fared badly under the partition system. The men who advocated the treaty in 1921 looked on it as a "stepping stone" to the real 32 County, Irish Republic. But either portion of t divided and partitioned nation have little chance to thrive or achieve more than nominal independence. The twenty-six county statelet's economy continued to be dominated by Britain. Unemployment and emigration persisted, and the state was, and is, dominated politically by British interests.

The six-county area cut off from the other twenty-six counties had never existed before as an entity in history, politics or economics. Containing six of the nine counties of Ulster, it was a completely artificial area, made by drawing an arbitrary boundary and carving an artificial unionist majority out of a majority nationalist country. Even Lloyd George, the British prime minister politically responsible for partition, called it "a frontier based neither upon natural features nor broad geographical considerations." In 4 1/2 counties out of the 6 there was and still is a majority of people fro independence! The numerical strength of the unionists in the other 1 1/2 counties enabled them to permanently out-vote the nationalists majority in the rest of the northern statelet.

The other three counties of Ulster contained 70,000 unionists who were not included in the new statelet because they also contained 260,000 republicans and nationalists. This was the only reason Britain would not keep the entire province of Ulster in the "UK". The inclusion of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan would "reduce our majority to such a level that no sane man would undertake to carry on parliament with it," said Sir James Craig, the first prime minister of the six counties.

As for whether things have changed between Britain and Ireland, one of the interesting things about the film is it will prompt people to ask that question: Have things changed? Maybe that's one of the reasons the film is worthy of debate."
-- Neil Jordan, director of the film "Michael Collins" While the British government was squandering the peace process to a point where it didn't exist in the closing months of 1995, several significant anniversaries occurred in the depressing relations between Britain and Ireland: the 75th and 70th anniversaries of the Government of Ireland Act and the Boundary Commission. They partitioned Ireland and created the present undemocratic state and the constitutional disaster at the root of today's continuation of the conflict.

A few days after the last of the leaders of the Easter Rising in Dublin had been executed, Lloyd George, soon to be Prime Minister, wrote to Edward Carson, leader of thy Ulster Unionist: "We must make it clear that at the end of the provisional period Ulster does not, whether it wants to or not, merge in the rest of Ireland."

Why? George determined his solution to the "Irish Question" was to be the partition of the country. It was a new concept which was never a unionist demand, who had always demanded that all of Ireland should remain in the U.K. "We never asked for partition and we never wanted it," said Lord Glentroan, a unionist leader, many years later in the Stormont Parliament. The point being that Ireland was partition in order to satisfy Britain's needs and Britain's needs only; the people of Ireland of both traditions were dead against it.

The British government's aim was to retain the whole country by dividing it and thereby making it an untenable entity.



The Government of Ireland Bill

The Government of Ireland Bill was introduced in Parliament in December of 1919. It was rejected by all sides in Ireland. The pro-Unionist Irish Times commented, "The Bill had not a single friend in either hemisphere, outside Downing Street."

Not a single member of any Irish party voted for it. Despite the overwhelming electoral success of Sinn Féin in 1919, in which the vast majority of the Irish people voted for full independence from Britain and actually set up its own government -- Dail Eireann, the Government of Ireland Act was pushed through parliament and became the basis of 77 years of war, political unrest and conflict in almost every aspect of Irish society.

While the Government of Ireland Bill was passing through Westminster in 1920, the Black and Tan War was escalating throughout Ireland and in the north-east of the country, the unionist forces set about preparing to establish the 6-county fifedom handed to them by the Bill. The Ulster Volunteer Force had up to 30,000 men under arms by October.

Terror in the North-east
With the British diligently preparing the legal ground for partition, the unionist forces set about preparing to rule the 6-Counties. Between June 1920 and June 1922, in a bout of ethnic cleansing that would repeat itself in the north-east on the average of once every 12 years since partition, 428 people were killed in political conflict there; 8,750 Catholics were driven from their jobs; 23,000 Catholics were driven from their homes.



"Northern Ireland"/"Ulster"

To show the artificial nature of the 6-County statelet which was inflicted upon the Irish people, it should not be called "Northern" because County Donegal, in the "South", is the northern-most part of the island. And the Province of Ulster is has been a nine county entity since antiquity. The unionists had already recognized that they would not have a sufficient majority to control the historic province, as was spelled out by Carson: "We should like to have the very largest area possible, naturally. That is a system of land grabbing that prevails in all countries for widening the jurisdiction of the various governments that are set up; but there is no use in our undertaking a government which we know would be a failure if we were saddled with these three counties." Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan are the three counties of Ulster not included in the gerrymandered "Northern Ireland"



Democracy Had Nothing To Do With It

Lloyd George frankly admitted that if the Irish people were asked what form of government they wanted, they would choose an Irish Republic "by an emphatic majority." But the British government made sure that that did not happen. Throughout the rest of 1920, the British waged war on nationalist Ireland in order, according to the Irish Times, "to scourge the Irish into obedience, leaving as sole alternative to resistance, the acceptance of the present Bill." That was November 1920, the bloodiest month of the war.

In that month 18 year-old Kevin Barry was hanged; in India, Corporal James Daly was executed for leading a mutiny in protest of Black and Tan atrocities; 14 British agents were executed by the IRA in Dublin; 13 Irish sports fans were shot dead by Black and Tans at Crooke Park; two IRA officers and a civilian, Conor Clune, were tortured and shot dead in the guardroom of Dublin Castle; at Kilmichael in Cork, the IRA, taking on a force many times its size in personnel and arms, inflicted the worst military defeat on the British army to date.

It was against this background that the Government of Ireland Bill passed its third reading on 11 November 1920. It defined the area of the two "states" as they were to remain to this day. Winston Churchill, in a comment that reflects upon today's arguments about self-determination and consent, said that as the Six Counties had been given all the trappings of a state, "every argument of self-determination ranged itself hence forward upon their side." In other words, once the 6-Counties was undemocratically gerrymandered to make a national minority into a majority, they could always point to "self-determination" to keep the unionists in power. The Government of Ireland Act became law on 23 December 1920.

With Partition now law, Lloyd George tightened his repressive regime in Ireland. At the same time he extended Martial Law, he offered to talk to republican representatives -- if they would surrender arms. Acting Sinn Fein President Arthur Griffith replied: "This was not a Truce but surrender, and there would be be no surrender, no matter what frightfulness was used." As the war intensified into 1921, with no let up in republican resistance, Lloyd George was forced to forget that precondition to talks. Sound familiar? But Lloyd George stuck to his partition plan rigidly in the complicated negotiations to come.



The Partition Trick:
"The Treaty" and "The Boundary Commission"

The trick was how to sell the Government of Ireland Act to both unionists and nationalists with a little modification as possible. To do this he had to assure unions that there would be no change in the size of their new "Northern Ireland" state and at the same time he had to persuade nationalists that in return for staying in the British Empire they would be able to reduce the Northern Ireland state to a size that made it unworkable and made Irish unity inevitable. Lloyd George managed to do both.

He achieved it during the negotiations that leg to the Treaty of December 1921. Only by persuading Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins that Article 12 of the Treaty would effectively mean the end of the Northern Ireland state did he succeed in winning their agreement. Article 12 provided for a Boundary Commission which would "determine in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants, so far as may be compatible with economic and geographic conditions, the boundaries between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland." Collins and Griffith were well aware that the Counties of Tyrone, Fermanagh, the southern portions of County Armagh, Down and Derry had Catholic/nationalist majorities.

On this basis the Treaty was signed and supported by just over half of Dial Eireann. A bloody Civil War ensued in the 26 Counties, turning former comrades in arms into bitter enemies, which has affected Irish politics to this day. The Six-Counties became a sectarian prison for the Catholic/Irish nationalist people with all power consolidated under the slim, artificial unionist majority.



The Boundary Commission: the final piece of treachery

The final part of Lloyd George's plan fell into place in November of 1925, 71 years ago. The last hope of nationalists in the Six-Counties rested on the Boundary Commission. The most hopeful, or most naive, interpreted Article 12 of the Treaty to mean that areas with a nationalist majority would revert to the "Free State" or the 26-Counties. Thus Counties Fermanagh and Tyrone, South Down and South Armagh, and Derry City and Newry would be outside the Orange state. But the unionists had warned from early on that they would have none of the Boundary Commission.

In 1922 Craig declared, "I will never give in to any rearrangement of the boundary that leaves our Ulster area less than it is under the Government of Ireland Act." The threatened "bloodshed and chaos of the worst description." At the same time, Michael Collins believed that under the Boundary Commission "we secure immense anti-Partition areas."

In 1924, meetings between Free State premier W.T. Cosgrave and Unionist premier James Craig failed to reach agreement and in April Cosgrave requested that the British government, under the terms of the Treaty, set up the Boundary Commission. The unionist refused to participate. The British then appointed a South African Justice Feetham to chair the Commission. The unionists then nominated J.R. Fisher to the Commission and the Free State's appointee was Eoin Mac Neill.



British Lies As Usual

In the public controversy that followed the full duplicity of Lloyd George two years earlier was exposed. Eamon De Valera published the letter written to him by Arthur Griffith during the Treaty negotiations conveying the promise by Lloyd George that if the unionists refuse to allow a Boundary Commission to delimit the area of the Northern government "he would fight, summon parliament, appeal to it against Ulster, dissolve, or pass an Act establishing an All-Ireland parliament."

Leading Tories then revealed what they had told the unionists. Walter Long said he had pledged on behalf of the Cabinet to Carson and Craig in 1920 that the Six-Counties "should be theirs for good and all and there should be no interference with the boundaries or anything else..."

Lord Birkinhead, a signatory to the Treaty in 1922, stated in a letter to Lord Balfour that Michael Collins' reassurances to Northern nationalists were groundless. Collins had told nationalists that Article 12 of the Treaty would protect them. Birkinhead said that the main purpose of Article 12 was to "preserve Northern Ireland" as it was.

All this happened before the Boundary Commission had its first meeting. To make doubly sure the cards were marked the House of Lords passed a motion saying that the Treaty's Article 12 contemplated nothing more than a "readjustment". Even the anti-republican Irish Independent commented: "If article 12 were capable of bearing any other meaning but that placed upon it by Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith and the Irish people it would never have received five minutes consideration in this country."

Little was heard of the Boundary Commission as it deliberated through 1925. Then on 7 November 1925 Ireland was shocked by a leak of the Commission's report. None of the nationalist areas were to revert to the Free State. The most substantial change was for a part of East Donegal to go into "Northern Ireland"! The majority nationalist counties of Tyrone and Fermanagh and the nationalist towns of Newry and Derry, as well as South Armagh and South Down, were to stay in the Orange nightmare state.

Eoin Mac Neill resigned from the Commission and then from the Free State government. Cosgrave and two of his ministers went to London and signed an agreement on 3 December 1925 that marked the final abandonment of Northern nationalists and effectively sealed partition.



Undemocratic By Nature

Irish republicans condemned the agreement and proclaimed their "unalterable opposition to the partitioning of our country." The Irish Labour Party described the London Agreement as "unmitigated betrayal."

The biggest losers were Irish Nationalists trapped in the Northern statelet. They had expressed their desire for Irish independence and unity in election after election. Without the consent of any of them, they had been incorporated into a sectarian state, established under a British act of parliament for which not one Irish vote was cast. So much for democracy and the consent of the people of "Northern Ireland." They were trapped in a state without their consent and they remain there today.


http://www.inac.org/roadtopeace/partition.html

Sadly, far to many Americans proceed to wax poetic on this subject based upon what they think they 'know' about it, when in fact, what they 'know' is about 90% rumor and myth. The above is a factual account of how Ulster came to be partitioned, and why the struggle to reunite Ireland continues to this day.

[Silverhair]

329. And now?

OK, so 80+ years ago the method of partition wasn't that demogratic. What about now? Do the majority of the inhabitants of "Northern Ireland" want to stay with with England, or with Ireland or set themselves up as a tiny country of their own? My understanding is that the majority are Protestant and want nothing to do with Catholic Ireland.

Please notice that I did say that the old IRA were patriots. It is the modern IRA, with their bombs in shopping centers, in streets, etc that I condemn.

[Padraig18]

334. Who knows?

I've no crystal ball to divine their sentiments; a free, honest and transparent plebiscite would tell what the people of Ulster want.

[Silverhair]

343. A fair and honest answer.

I respect your integrity for such an honest answer. I agree about the vote, except I don't think the extremist on either side would honor it.

[Padraig18]

344. Thank you!

I appreciate your honest, non-leading questions. you truly seem to be seeking facts and input, rather than approaching the question with preconceptions.

I don't know that eitrher side would accept the result, either, but I know that whichever 'side' won the election could then approach and deal with those extremists 'armed with the legitimiacy of a free and fair electoral mandate. :hi:

[0rganism]

340. From reading the article, my take is it doesn't matter what they want

Seems like the Ulster Unionists got the short end of both sticks. They're part of England, stuck like a fifth wheel on the top of Not-England. Their ideal of unifying the whole of Ireland with England displeases the vast majority of those with whom they share an island. Of course, that majority happens to be a large minority within Northern Ireland, and the two factions can't seem to get along.

The Brits aren't going to try to get the rest of Ireland to join England, the sun set on that part of the empire a long time ago. It doesn't seem to matter what the Unionists want now, not to the Brits, and not to the Irish Republicans.

[Padraig18]

341. Politically, they would gain if they were part of the ROI.

At present, Ulster comprises about 2-3% of the total representation in The English Parliament; were they to become united with the Irish Republic, they would comprise roughly 25% of the total. in addition, they would be enormously important in that they would likely provide the 'swing' votes needed to form a majority in the Dail.

One thing most people need to realize is that the Republic of Ireland is hardly Stalinist Russia, something the repeated and sole reliance on 'pelvic issues' by those who oppose a plebiscite should make clear--- they have nothing else. :think: Ireland is a free, vigorous and proseprous republic with a fantastic human-rights record. :hi:

[LibLabUK]

347. *cough*

"proseprous republic"

Have you actually been to Dublin?

I went there last year expecting to see the prosperous and vibrant city that everyone talks about, what I actually encountered was a decaying and impoverished city.

With the exception of the Temple Bar area, where the tourist industry has brought in investment, the city looks to be in a bad way.

"Ireland is a free, vigorous and proseprous republic with a fantastic human-rights record."

Unless you happen to be an unmarried mother or a child born to an unmarried mother.

[Padraig18]

350. Have I 'been there'?

FFS, I *lived* in Ireland until 1994! Dublin is an old, tired city, with many problems common to old, tried cities; i've not noticed Manchester or leeds winning any awards for great beauty either, if you want to go there...

If the best you can do as a 'slam' against the ROI is the lack of the right to legal abortions, you haven't got much ammunition.

[LibLabUK]

354. Hmmm.

"FFS, I *lived* in Ireland until 1994! Dublin is an old, tired city, with many problems common to old, tried cities; i've not noticed Manchester or leeds winning any awards for great beauty either, if you want to go there..."

Leeds and Manchester aren't capital cities.

Manchester used to have a brilliant shopping centre...


"If the best you can do as a 'slam' against the ROI is the lack of the right to legal abortions, you haven't got much ammunition."

I was actually referring to the orphanages and homes for unamrried mothers (Magdalene homes), I've seen reports of extraordinary cruelty to both children and young women in these places.

I actually don't think holding onto Northern Ireland is in any way beneficial to mainland Britain. The only people who actually benefit from it are the residents of Northern Ireland and the people who supply the arms to the terrorists.

I'm all for having a referendum amongst the people of Northern Ireland on whether they want to be absorbed into the Republic. I think that either way the vote went there would continue to be bloodshed.

Hopefully, when the assembly is reopened more progress towards peace will be made.

[Maeve]

358. A matter of perspective, to some extent

What I saw of Dublin this past summer was quite charming and vital, although I prefer Galway and the west. Cork is in the middle of various up-grades for 2005, so I couldn't get a sense of it at all.

For a traditionally poor country, hampered in the past by disasterous policies against modernization, Ireland has come a long way in the past twenty years or so. I only hope it doesn't go too far into Europeanization and lose itself!

[Undemcided]

331. Critical thinking?

Cutting and pasting from NORAID online? That bastion of truth and objectivity. Methinks you’ve been singing one too many rebel songs whilst sipping on the Guinness and passing the hat “for the cause”. You plastic Paddies are a bad joke.

[Padraig18]

336. Are we now?

I would only point out to those reading your reply that you refute nothing, but resort to ad hominem attack on me.

Rather speaks for itself, I think.

[Undemcided]

355. Why waste my time?

Why should I bother to refute anything from someone who pastes sections from a NORAID web site with such balanced headings as “ British Lies As Usual ”, and who thinks the Irish famine was a British plot? If you only see one side of the problem then there’s no point talking to you.

[Padraig18]

357. The Famine was not a plot.

What the famine was was one of the most cold and calculated acts of criminal negligence in the history of mankind. You *had* the food and medicine to feed the Irish people, yet you didn't. Care to 'defend' that?

Why, pray tell, is NORAID any less biased than the partisan garbage you and your side spew forth? Is there only one 'correct view of the situation?

[Silverhair]

328. A correction

I have recieved a very nice email from an Irish lady who informs me that some things have changed. Birth control is now legal and divorce is now possible but requires 4 years seperation.

My appreciation to a nice DUer for taking the time and courtesy to correct my information. It has been a long time since I was in Ireland. (A truly beautiful land.) I am glad to hear of the changes.

[Bridget Burke]

345. Also, abortion is not quite legal in the North

Generally, women needing to terminate a pregnancy go to England--just like their sisters in the South.

And, yes, divorce & birth control are now legal in the Republic.

[Mass_Liberal]

330. Both sides have done horrible things

The IRA began with good intentions. But then starting murdering protestant civilians. The orangemen were not any better. Northern Ireland needs to have a vote of all its citizens on independance.


Peace :kick:

[0rganism]

339. Where's the selection for "both"?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Tharesa]

353. Tharesa think bombs and death is terrible.

We not like this or IRA.