If Bush starts a draft, it's time to start impeachment proceedings.

[The Backlash Cometh]

A draft will only legitimize this administration's mistakes. Bush not only got us into a war using information he should have known was false, but he went into the conflict without an exit plan. How many more mistakes will he be allowed to make between now and November 2004?

The reasons for going into Iraq have been discredited and it will take time, and many boys will die, before we convince the rest of Mainstream America that Cheney's greed was behind it all along.

So we should start circulating a petition to impeach Bush and Cheney and get them out of the White House before our sons pay the ultimate price. The petition may not succeed in its purpose to bring on impeachment proceedings, but included in the wording should be a promise NOT TO VOTE FOR BUSH IN 2004 OR ANY CONGRESSMAN THAT APPROVES THE DRAFT. We shouldn't legitimize Bush's War by accepting a draft without offering some resistance. Signing a petition for impeachment, and which commits our votes to a worthy cause, is the one thing that our enterprising American forefathers would have approved.

The best defense is a good offense.

[HPLeft]

1. If Bush Starts a Draft...

...support for this war will drop completely through the floor.

[Zhade]

7. Exactly. You get the prize!

:)

[LeahMira]

49. Not for THIS war in Iraq, but...

If Bush Starts a Draft..."
...support for this war will drop completely through the floor.

But if there is another attack on American soil, no matter how effective or otherwise, there will be angry, frightened people anxious to sign up. Can we say that it couldn't happen or is it really just a matter of time?

[MessiahRp]

2. Actually...

While I personally thing the bastard stole the office and should have been forced to go to court for some of the stunts pulled in Florida, he really should have been indicted on charges for lying to the American People knowingly about the war. When you put your hand on the bible and take the oath of office lying in the State of the Union is tantamount to perjury. If it works for Clinton it most definitely works for Bush.

Of course they could have a second charge becuase of the Wilson case, so this would be way worse for Bush.

Rp

[roguevalley]

3. I agree. The draft would be the price we would pay for a lie.

A draft is going to have to be in place by March, 2004 when we run out of troops regardless of rotation. Maybe moveon could organize another national call in and tell the congressmen/senators that they will lose their job if they do a draft. And if they don't move on impeachment. Right now things are all shaky. They might not be better time to do it.

[Prodemsouth]

4. Where is all this talk about a draft coming from?!!!!

It is wishful thinking to consider that starting a draft is on the table. Bad politics-the anti war movement would swell over such a act. Ending the draft made the anti-war movement and the left as a whole weaker. Nixion did away with it, he knew it was good poitics. Defense contractors know the draft is bad for them too. The Repugs know that they would loose 80% of the buzz cut tough talking young uns and these new "hip" Repugs if they did such a thing. They would become Deanies or Clarkies overnight. "Its the politics stupid".. Draft is not going to happen - we, our side, should be so lucky.

[Paragon]

5. I said as much a little while ago

But the mods locked the thread.

[Prodemsouth]

6. Why???

n/t

[Paragon]

10. You tell me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=644398

[Prodemsouth]

9. Btw, when Rangle and Hollings were making noise about a draft it was

The Adminstration through Rummy that shot the idea down, remember the remarks that offended Vietnam Vets.

[OldSoldier]

21. That's because he wanted to draft the wrong people

They wanted to draft the sons of the well-off. Can't have that.

[0rganism]

12. Exactly! As long as the military is the only "federal jobs program" funded

there is no need for a draft. There will be enough "volunteers" to carry out the various sorts of adventurism this administration supports. And if, for whatever reason, more are needed, all bush* has to do is cut taxes to stimulate overseas job growth at the expense of American workers. This will make the job market absolutely untenable for anyone fresh out of high school, so it'll either be service sector or the military or a move back in with the parents.

A draft is wasting resources to force that which can be accomplished quite naturally from other conservative "growth" policies.

[Hubert Flottz]

13. The draft will start after Bush's reselection!

So will patriot act # II and III!
So Will the Fourth Reich!
So will the "New World Order"!

It takes a huge military to rule the world!

[ForestsBeatBushes]

30. my sentiments precisely - ABB!

[Ishoutandscream]

64. Exactly

When Bush's "second term" starts, look out. I'm 42, and the race in 2004 is the most critical in my lifetime. I have a three year old son, and I'm looking at the long range effects of this. If we start a draft, it will take awhile to repeal it. Remember, we had a draft in war and in peace from 1940 - 1975. If I can help it, my son will never go.

[MoonRiver]

73. Yes, that's the plan. Chickenhawks won't risk a backlash before

the final fix is in. :scared: / :mad:

[stlsaxman]

17. Perhaps all this talk of a draft is coming from Selective Service...

Read about it here...

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

[ellie]

34. I just applied online

to be a board member. I encourage others to do the same.

[mainer]

60. from Salon.com -- the feds are "oiling up" the draft machinery

Oiling up the draft machine?
The Pentagon is quietly moving to fill draft board vacancies nationwide. While officials say there's no cause to worry, some experts aren't so sure.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Dave Lindorff



Nov. 3, 2003 | The community draft boards that became notorious for sending reluctant young men off to Vietnam have languished since the early 1970s, their membership ebbing and their purpose all but lost when the draft was ended. But a few weeks ago, on an obscure federal Web site devoted to the war on terrorism, the Bush administration quietly began a public campaign to bring the draft boards back to life.

"Serve Your Community and the Nation," the announcement urges. "If a military draft becomes necessary, approximately 2,000 Local and Appeal Boards throughout America would decide which young men ... receive deferments, postponements or exemptions from military service."

Local draft board volunteers, meanwhile, report that at training sessions last summer, they were unexpectedly asked to recommend people to fill some of the estimated 16 percent of board seats that are vacant nationwide.

[Zhade]

8. Impeachment? Try imprisonment for war crimes.

He's more than met that requirement!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. It Takes A Majority To Get A Bill Of Impeachment

out of the House... Since the R's have a majority of House members it's mathematically impossible....

[OldSoldier]

22. Not so!

I call it "negative coattails."

If the Bush boy is definitely going to lose and definitely going to take a bunch of Republican congressmen/senators with him, the GOP will dump his ass. They can't afford not to. They will do an "investigation" that reveals enough high crimes and misdemeanors to justify removing him (which wouldn't take long, all they'd need do is pull up any ten randomly-selected issues of Bartcop), hold the trial and pull the plug on him. Then do the same for Cheney. Then for Frist and DeLay. By the time they're done, Lincoln Chaffee is president, Olympia Snowe is VP and my cat Hormel is house majority leader.

[0rganism]

24. bush* will have over $300 million to spend on campaign ads by June

He is not "definitely going to lose".

Don't be silly. Money talks, and so does the conservative-controlled nationalist media. The 2004 Democratic candidate faces an uphill battle of a sort we haven't seen since 1972.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. A picture of body bags will trump 300 million in blood money,

any day.

[IndianaGreen]

14. before we impeach, let's make sure that DU's chickenhawks are drafted!

You know who they are! That handful of military-loving warmongers that support the ongoing occupation of Iraq.

Let them get a taste of the real military life, as many of us did. More importantly, let them feel what we felt when we heard our politicians support policies that we knew were not working.

[Silverhair]

15. Only the far left is wanting the draft back.

The conservatives are 100% against a return to the draft. The ONLY voices wanting a draft are from the far left.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Not true!

The real far left opposes feeding working class canon fodder to the military machine.

I oppose this war, so how could someone that opposes the war want the draft reinstated? The only people to get drafted are the children of the working class. The children of the elites will sit this one out, as they have in past drafts.

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. Here are the left-leaning sponsors of the bill to reinstate the draft

H.R.163
Title: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors: 13
Related Bills: S.89
Latest Major Action: 2/3/2003 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Executive Comment Requested from DOD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COSPONSORS(13), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)
Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 Rep Brown, Corrine - 1/28/2003
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 1/28/2003 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 1/28/2003 Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 1/28/2003
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 1/28/2003 Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003
Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 Rep Moran, James P. - 1/28/2003
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - 1/28/2003 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - 1/28/2003

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:26:./temp/~bd0HXC:@@@P|/bss/d108query.html|

[Terwilliger]

23. which `far-left' is that? some kind of dreamworld created by conservatives

The far-left opposes war, they don't foster drafts.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

29. he's a conservative Democrat......what far-left silverhair?

how do you define it?

[IndianaGreen]

35. A Zell Miller Democrat?

Miller has endorsed Bush for 2004!

[Terwilliger]

39. Indiana

do you honestly believe that Miller's sentiment is that far removed from the mainstream of the party?

the Democratic party used to be for people like Miller and his ilk...it looks like they're trying to reclaim it

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. Here is a list of the liberals who want to bring back the draft

H.R.163
Title: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors: 13
Related Bills: S.89
Latest Major Action: 2/3/2003 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Executive Comment Requested from DOD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COSPONSORS(13), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)
Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 Rep Brown, Corrine - 1/28/2003
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 1/28/2003 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 1/28/2003 Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 1/28/2003
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 1/28/2003 Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003
Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 Rep Moran, James P. - 1/28/2003
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - 1/28/2003 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - 1/28/2003

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:26:./temp/~bdCkQs:@@@P|/bss/d108query.html|

[Silverhair]

51. Please name any Reps that have introduced a bill..

that would reinstate the draft. Has any member of the administration said anything about bringing the draft back? Rummy is against the draft.

Who introduced the legislation? Democrats. Hollings & Rangel

Folks, it is some of our people who are asking for the draft back. (I am totally against a return of the draft.) We have to make up our minds, do we want it back or not, and then tell our own leadership.

Look at previous draft threads and the arguement advanced for the draft is that it would spread the military burden across all classes and therefore make wars unpopular among the elite. Does anybody really believe this? I don't.

We can't do something ourselves and then blame Bush v.2 for it. We will only end up with egg on our faces.

How can we say Bush v.2 is bringing the draft back when it is Democrats that are pushing the legislation?

There are plenty of things that Bush v.2 has done that he can be blamed for. Use those, but bringing back the draft ain't one of them.

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. A draft will stop NOTHING.

Dumb Democratic leaders are playing into the Republican hands. Then when the draft begins, the Repubs will look at us and say, "We have a mandate. Your Dem leaders supported this draft and they represent you."

We will have NO ONE that we trust to represent us. Get it? Once the wheels are in motion, the Republicans can fix the system anyway they like and the Democratics will be powerless to call for an investigation if they don't like the way things are turning out. Because they were stupid enough to call for something without first verifying its accuracy. The Republicans are in power and they will set it up, just as they set up Diebold.

Democrats have been pretty impotent when it comes to investigating Republican wrong-doing and I'm not one bit too happy that they're risking the life of my son in this manner.

[Silverhair]

66. Semi agreement

I am not so sure that the Reps are that good at being Machivellians, but it is damn sure stupid of our guys to introduce the bills calling for the draft back. It does indeed give legitamcy to the Reps if the draft is brought back.

[Terwilliger]

57. I agree with your take here...

but they are not "far-left"

In fact, I'd say thier logic was far-DLC

[diamond14]

18. here's the petition to IMPEACH bush*....if everyone here got

20 people to sign this petition, it would go a long way toward diminishing bush* power to DRAFT....


http://www.votetoimpeach.org/

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. Signed it, thank you for posting.

*

[diamond14]

63. will you circulate it? get 20 more signatures? that's the bigger

effort that needs to be made to stop the shrub....

[kyrasdad]

19. I'm sure Bush, Uncle Dick and Uncle Karl

sitting around the library smoking cuban cigars and sipping Chivas have thought a draft. I also think, that while thier thinking would be OK, so what, a bunch of lower class kids go over and get blown to bits, while we make sure our kids and grandkids get cushy assignments defending Missouri, they have got to realize that it would be political suicide.

Soccer Mom's, Mini-van Mom's, any Mom's everywhere would be storming the West Wing demanding thier heads on platters.

As much as I hate this administration... there's no way they would be THAT stupid.

[Triana]

20. It was time to start impeachment hearings on 9-12-01

Wasn't it? :evilgrin:

[Corgigal]

25. Hate to rain on your parade

But I think Bush might actually be able to get away with a draft. I don't think the young of this country are listening and they won't know it hit the fan until the letter stops at their mailbox.

I just don't trust the citizens to get with the program.

[OldCurmudgeon]

32. you got that right

it's that old "those who ignore the lessons of history" thing that Americans are SO good at. "yeah, yeah, the draft for Vietnam was
bad, but THIS time it's all different". Sure.

As long as DeLay controls the House, Shrub could get up on national
TV, announce that he has kinky sex with diseased farm animals and a troupe of acrobatic leather-clad midgets, and the R's would "rush" to defend him.

On the other hand, if Shrub has a change of heart and suddenly wants
to recind the tax-cuts for the rich to fund social programs, DeLay would have him impeached in a heartbeat. (Assuming DeLay HAS a heart, which is doubtful)

[Terwilliger]

33. the draft won't happen

when Republicans have to participate and send their young off to die, they'll reconsider in about four seconds

[Silverhair]

52. It is Dems that have asked for the draft back.

The Reps won't have to reconsider as they are against the draft already. The bill to reinstate the draft has been introduced by Hollings & Rangel. They are Democrats.

[diamond14]

62. "the 18 -- 30 year olds give bush* a big vote of support"

there is absolutely NO resistance to bush* at all from the draftees...they don't go to anti-war protests, they don't vote, they support bush* in very high numbers...it's almost like the draftees have BIG signs on their heads: DRAFT ME, DRAFT ME !!!!!



From Washington Post, Tuesday, November 4, 2003

Even on Iraq, the 18 -- 30 year olds give him (bush*) a big vote of support -- more than any other age group and the reverse of the over 60s. Bush has a 66 percent general approval rating among the young, compared to 51 percent among the old. How to explain it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61774-2003Nov4.html

[Terwilliger]

26. why should impeachment proceedings be tied to a potential draft?

if you wanted impeachment proceedings, it should have been right after the 16 words lies were revealed

Trust me...it ain't gonna happen!

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. So that he can understand the anguish he's putting us through.

I don't think he'll experience it any other way. He has no sons.

[HFishbine]

28. I'd be for it

No defferments for college or family responsibilities, and if you have a medical condition that precludes combat, you serve as a medic or radio operator.

The only reason this war had/has the support it does is because 95% of America is untouched by it. They sit in their La-z-boys, waving their flags, cheering on their team like it's Monday Night football. Let American's fully share the real brurdens of war and we'll have a big fat reality check.

[tom_paine]

31. The steps of the Imperial Senate would be slick with blood

(or ashen with the remains of crashed small planes)

before Bunnypants* "steps down" as Emperor.

[Noordam]

38. link to government site

looking for new draft board members

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

[mikehiggins]

40. WIthout a draft

how will we be able to invade Cuba?

Its either Syria or Cuba before election day ("How can you expect me to debate when our troops are fighting in Havana?"). The Bush League is starting the background stories already.

Syria would be the original target but there aren't a lot of votes in the US Syrian population, whereas the expatriate Cubans have votes AND money to put at Dubya's service.

And if he sends THEM in first, he gets the benefits and eliminates the only people likely to complain afterwards.

[Freddie Stubbs]

42. So far only Democratic members of Congress support the draft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H.R.163
Title: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors: 13
Related Bills: S.89
Latest Major Action: 2/3/2003 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Executive Comment Requested from DOD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COSPONSORS(13), ALPHABETICAL : (Sort: by date)
Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 Rep Brown, Corrine - 1/28/2003
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 1/28/2003 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 1/28/2003 Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 1/28/2003
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 1/28/2003 Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003
Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 Rep Moran, James P. - 1/28/2003
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - 1/28/2003 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - 1/28/2003

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:26:./temp/~bd0HXC:@@@P|/bss/d108query.html|

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. That's just pathetic.

The Dems may create a backlash, but that backlash will be leaderless since no one will trust them again.

[hang a left]

45. Really though, wasn't this proposed as a deterent for the war.

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. And the bill certainly did a good job at stopping the war

[The Backlash Cometh]

55. For a deterrent...

...stupid is as stupid does.

[mbali]

46. A Draft is a good idea

It would certainly make those who so blindly support Bush and the war put their money where their mouths are. I have no doubt that if they had to send THEIR children to war, lots of folks would stop behaving like complacent dittoheads, get up off their asses and demand that this Administration stop lying to them and throwing kids to the wolves in order to feed George W's ego. It's easy to be pro-war when OTHER people's kids are at risk. It's a whole 'nother story when it's time to sacrifice your own children. Let's see if Bush's crusades are worth the lives of EVERYONE's kids.

[JNelson6563]

50. This is one topic

where I give much less regard to the big picture than I do my own relation to the issue.

I have a 12 year old son. He is safe for now. If in any way I feel there is danger that he may be drafted at 18, I mean if I can see it as a possibility in the next few years its' Good-bye America.

I love my country but I will not sacrifice my son so Halliburton etc. can get richer and the PNAC gang can realize their goal.

Canada is close, much like the beautiful area in Mich I live in now and I have tons of family there. While I haven't seen most in many years, I show up, they see "Jim's daughter" Voila!! New life in Canada with that wing of my massive, beloved Irish clan.

I won't risk my son (or daughter for that matter) for anything. They are more precious to me than anything. ANYTHING.

Julie

[E Pluribus Unum]

71. The draft is not goining to happen Julie. For lots of reasons.

Rest a little easier. People just get carried away with emotion on this board sometimes.

[LibDemAlways]

53. Even with a draft

the Vietnam war was not fought by a bunch of rich repukes. They found plenty of ways out of it.

I graduated from a high school in an affluent area in 1970. No one, and I mean no one, from my class was drafted. The guys all got college deferments until the draft was ended.

Any draft put into place by the present administration would have plenty of loopholes for people with money and influence. Those are the only people chimpco gives a shit about.

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. Exactly. Bush will take care of his own.

When has he ever called upon the upper class to make sacrifices? NEVER. And he's not about to do it with a equal opportunity draft. He will find a loophole for them to use.

[Freddie Stubbs]

59. The upper class has served in the past

In WWII, Bush's father was a combat pilot and his plane was shot down. He was rescued by an American submarine.

Also, Joseph Kenney, Jr. (JFK's brother) died when his plane was shot down over Europe in WWII.

[bowens43]

58. What's ironic is that it's the Democrats pushing for the draft,

not the republicans.

[Nashyra]

65. The Dems that are pushing or talking about the draft

are making the point that if the draft is reinstated that no one, no one gets a deferment. I believe that is there point. Another thought and issue, just this morning after seeing the interviews with the family's that died over the weekend a good question might be to ask the media or any newspaper editorial "How many of the families that were in the top 1% of the tax cuts have lost a loved one in the war in Iraq? How many of those top 1% even have family members over in Iraq?" "Who and what are these middle class men and women protecting"? I think that we should be shouting off the roof tops that there should be a "draft" of the family members of Haliburton, KRB, Bechtel, Enron etc, anyone making money off this war should have to put up there own son or daughter up for military duty to "protect this nation", that would put an end to this real fast, or I certainly hope so, no ones sons or daughters are worth the cost of this illegal and greedy war by that sorry SOB (son of Barb)* sitting resident, or should I say AWOL squatter. Sorry about the rant, I have a draft age son in college and seeing the pictures of those service men this morning tore me up.

On the lighter side my friends brought me over a sign for my front door that reads "Attack Democrat Beware"

[7th_Sephiroth]

67. i dont think

those people care about thier kids, some probabyly never even interact with them, itsall the nanny's job to do that stuff

[Ready4Change]

68. The Dems who support this draft are pipe dreaming...

... if they think they can get anything through this congress without it being custom tailored by the right. I can't believe they've been so stupid as to propose this. It gives the right a draft, and if it goes sour the right can wash their hands of responsibilty because the left introduced the draft proposal in the first place.

And for those here thinking the right will resist the draft because their own kids will get sent to war: Keep this in mind. There is only ONE congressman with a kid in the military. Any draft that passes this congress won't change that number much if at all.

[Nederland]

61. Why

...do people here keep pushing the ridiculous idea that the draft is coming back anytime soon? Its simply not going to happen.

[smirkymonkey]

69. Anybody familiar with the Draft Riots of 1863?

The wealthy could buy their way out for $300 - leaving the poor and the immigrants to fight (remember the scene in Gangs of New York?). They rioted, killed and burned half of New York - compeltely out of control.

Do you think such a riot could take place today? How much do we put up with before people just start exploding? Personally, I am amazed there haven't been more incidents of rebellion over what has happened over the last few years. I know I am almost at my breaking point.

[jody]

70. Only Congress can implement a draft. We need to impeach Congress

in November 2004.

[Scott Lee]

72. Starting up the draft is a GREAT idea!

I can think of nothing that will swell vehement opposition to this criminal war faster. As I recall, a draft was the preeminent force behind the resistance to the Vietnam war. Nobody wants to be forced to go die thousands of miles away for nothing but a president's ego.

[The Backlash Cometh]

74. Over 50,000 boys died in that conflict.

It wasn't even categorized as a war.