A tinfoil theory regarding Oday and Qusay Hussein...

[Devils Advocate NZ]

Remember how all the expectations were that the Republican Guards, the Special Republican Guards and the Saddam Fedayeen were going to turn Baghdad into a bloodbath?

Remember how all resistance suddenly collapsed and Baghdad was basically abandoned?

Remember how it was later revealed that deals had been made with commanders of the Republican Guards and Special Republican Guards to get those forces to abandon their positions?

Now, consider this: Qusay Hussein was the supreme commander of the Republican and Special Republican Guards, and Uday was the supreme commander of the Saddam Fedayeen.

At the time, there was speculation that these two men did not know how to fight a war, and that was why these formations put up little resistance.

But what if the deal that was made was with Uday and Qusay? What if they were garaunteed their freedom and 15 million dollars each in return for standing down their forces and supplying the US with blood and tissue samples?

Could that put a new light on the bounty placed on their heads and this raid that supposedly resulted in their deaths? Could that explain why Gen. Sanchez is so certain that they are dead?

Remember it would be in the Hussein brothers interest to have the US claiming they are dead. After all, these two men are hated by many Iraqis and to have the Iraqi people believe they are dead is beneficial to both them AND the US.

I did say it was a tinfoil theory, but perhaps it is close to the truth? Sort of a Federal Witness Protection Programme?

[Hubert Flottz]

1. They will prolly get on the witness protection plan and..............

be working at a Go-Mart near you! NOTHING WOULD SURPRISE ME OUTTA' THE BUSHISTA MOB!

[Pallas180]

5. I see it the opposite way. Why didnt they take them alive so they

could get information about the "WMD".

Well seems to me machoman didn't want them alive cause
then they would have a lot of stories to tell about macho's
daddy and where they got their weapons, their bug weapons,
their nuke stuff....and things about money...

dead men tell no tales.

do they?

[haymaker]

7. Right on. They had them surrounded

and chose instead to call in helicopter gunships and an A-10? Talk about overkill.

Even if word got out that they were surrounded and Iraqis came to save them, isn't that what we would want, a fight, right there, surely they are no match for us. We could have cleaned their clocks if they came to help Usay and Huday.

but no, we have to call in tank killers and start shooting tow missiles into the HOUSE.

As usual, things are not as they seem.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

10. You're still assuming that they were in the house...

What if they weren't in the house, or even in Iraq? How could the US forces cover up their deal? Simple: get four people, two of whom were probably look-alikes of Uday and Qusay, and blow the living shit out of them.

That explains why they turned to the A-10s and Apaches so quickly, because no one, not even the soldiers on the ground were supposed to be able to tell that these men were NOT Uday and Qusay.

Think about it. If they had just wanted them dead, they could have sent a sniper team to wait for them to show their faces, and a quick clean kill would have soon followed. No, they didn't just want them dead, they wanted them obliterated. The only reason I can see for that is a desire to disguise their identity, and the only reason to do that, that I can think of, is that it's not really them.

[midnight armadillo]

13. Overkill is a message

It's to send a message, that the US is now the biggest baddest bunch of motherf*ckers in the neighborhood. Snipers would perhaps have done the job, but a press release saying "Sharp shooters took out Saddam's sons" is not nearly as awe-inspiring as one that says "US calls out the wrath of God to obliterate Saddam's sons."

I have no doubt this tactic was decided upon based upon the racist theory that Arabs only understand force (really, if I said "Jews only understand force" or "blacks only understand force", I'd be denounced, but it's apparently still acceptable to speak of Arabs this way). Bremer et. al. figured they could scare the Iraqi opposition forces into just going home and quitting via massive overkill of these two.

Heck, I half-expect one of those daisy cutter bombs will be used on Saddam when they find him.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

17. Sorry, I don't buy that argument, and here's why...

From my reading, it appears that killing them, no matter how dramatically, would have had far less effect than the emasculation that would come about by parading them in chains in front of a court.

Remember, Arabs pratically invented the modern idea of martyrdom, and this amount of force would only serve to show just how "manly" these men were. After all if it took over two hundred elite soldiers and attack helicopters and jets along with tanks and sundry other heavy weapons over four hours to subdue these three men and a teenage boy, it would almost elevate them to the level of invinicbility that they used to claim for Saddam himself.

It was a rumour put around in Iraq that Saddam was bullet proof, and this little demonstration yesterday sure won't harm that belief!

Nope, for all aspects except the one I listed, it would be far better to take them out quickly and simply, or to capture them, than to have a battle like they did yesterday.

So, I believe, my theory still stands.

[Cha]

2. Yeah...ya never know what all these murdering crooks are up

to! I hope the truth has a way of flooding out so we can know someday.

In the meantime that theory doesn't sound half bad!

:kick:

[karlschneider]

3. I wish I knew. In this Alice in Wonderland world we seem to have got in

any bizarre and outre analysis is on the table.

[whathappened]

4. i'll just about buy any story these days

from any one but jr. and his crowd of merry idiots , just where and the hell is this so called 5o million on there heads came from to begain with , seems to me 50 million would do alot of good right here in the u.s.a. for the helping of the down and out of this country , not for some bunch of no bodys in iraq that don't mean a thing

[Devils Advocate NZ]

6. Let me expand a bit on this...

Why would it be necessary to stage their deaths? Apart from the obvious that it protects the Hussein brothers while giving the Bush admin a "get out of jail free" card to pull out when necessary (like today) it would be required for another reason:

How could the Bush admin cover up a deal done with the Husseins? At some point the money would have to be accounted for and sooner or later it would come out. But this way, they can straight-up tell the world that they are paying an Hussein cousin 30 million "for information leading to their capture/death" and no one will realise that the ultimate destination is the pockets of the very men it was supposed to help capture!

I would be willing to bet that at some point in the future (say around September/October 2004) the same thing will happen with Saddam. A distant relative will come forward with information that results in a raid in which Saddam is killed and he will get a reward in the tens of millions.

Now, some might say that these rewards would be a pittance compared to what they stole, so why would the Husseins need them? But how could the Husseins get their hands on the stolen money? It would be too obvious, and they could be tracked down. But this way they get plenty to "retire" on as well as being able to deny who they are because the US says they are already dead!

Win-Win would be the term Bush and his cronies would use, I'm sure. In fact it's just the kind of deal they love to make!

[NYC]

8. A variation on your theme.

Everything you said, but then the U.S. double crossed them, and did kill them today.

Your idea would explain why both brothers would stay in the house of a known relative. Sort of like putting all your eggs in one basket, and a basket people would tend to look in, at that. Doesn't make sense to me. However, if a deal had been made, it would make sense.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

9. That is a possibility...

but unless they have Saddam and others (like Chemical Ali) already stashed away somewhere, it might interfere with any future such staged events, so I believe if a deal was made, the US stuck to it.

[lanlady]

11. for Pete's sake, they're both dead

good riddance to 'em.

[tomp]

19. do not trust the govt! nt

[nannygoat]

12. Yeah and now these two are

repuke Guards in *'s repuke party.

[LiberalLibra]

14. Check LBN, supposedly US will display bodies at least for Iraqis......

....to convince them the sons are dead.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

18. It wouldn't prove a thing...

First of all, these bodies will be pretty badly shot up, and if my theory is correct will probably be of look-alikes.

Remember the Husseins used look-alikes extensively (including Uday for sure and possibly Qusay as well) to thwart assassination attempts. These look-alikes were so good, that even officials fairly close to the centre of power were unable to tell them apart (after all the greatest threat from assassins cam from high officials rather than outsiders).

So tell me, how does displaying a body that looks like Uday or Qusay help in any way what so ever? If even the CIA has trouble telling them apart from high quality photos, how are you or I or the average Iraqi supposed to be able to tell whether or not a shot up corpse is Uday or Qusay or one of their doubles?

So that leaves only one thing: DNA. My theory covers that by stating that part of the deal with Uday and Qusay that got them to surrender Baghdad included the supply of tissue and blood samples.

[tomp]

20. what about dental records? nt

[Devils Advocate NZ]

22. Dental records only work, if you assume that they are not...

intentionally false.

Firstly, it is known that the Hussein's went to extremes in order to make their look-alikes perfect, including plastic surgery (and probably cosmetic dentistry). Second, how do we know that the records being used were actually Uday and Qusay's, and not those of look-alikes?

Another form of ID is the method of comparing the bone structure of an unknown person against the bone structure of a known photograph. This in fact has been the only way that they have been able to tell whether it was really a Hussein or one of the doubles in the past, but this is not 100% accurate, and sometimes they just haven't been able to tell.

Basically, the same problem arises: how do we know that they are using a genuine photo of Uday and Qusay and not a photo of the look-alike used to fake this raid? You and I would never be able to tell, and I am sure no-one who could, would set us straight.

The next is fingerprints, and the same problem arises: How would we know they were comparing them against the genuine fingerprints rather than the look-alikes?

Finally there is DNA, which we have all been taught is infallible. However, if the Husseins had a deal, and provided samples, then these tests could also be fabricated. Remember thorough testing would also test the two unknowns against each other to see if they are gentically related, so both Uday and Qusay would have to provide samples that would be used in place of samples taken from the bodies of the look-alikes. That way, not only would they be confirmed to be Husseins, they would also be confirmed to be brothers. The loose ends would be neatly tied up.

In other words, there is no way we could ever be sure, without taking the Bush admins word for it.

Remember, in all the ID scenarios above, the people most likely to try and fake them would be in charge of the testing. That would be like having a rapist test his own DNA against a semen sample on his vicitm and the courts taking his word for it that it did not match.

So the question is, do you trust the Bush admin?

[Cujo]

15. it isn't so far fetched

considering the current administration, and I guess a lot of Iraqis are doubting it was Uday and Qusay, too many questions. but nice try dubya

[sallydallas124]

16. I'm game for any theory

because I pretty much have zero trust in this admin.

I've wondered if maybe the boys had already been killed earlier and they were just waiting for an opportune time to report their deaths. Obviously the admin has been feeling the heat lately; good diversionary tactic to use on the zombies. I sometimes wonder if Saddam is dead too and they're just waiting to use that card as well.

However, if the US was working w/Saddam et al it wouldn't surprise me.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

21. Too me, there are a number of important factors...

The first is the surprise collapse of Iraqi resistence outside Baghdad, and the sudden disappearance of the Hussein regime. We know for a fact that a deal was done with senior Iraqis to dispurse their forces. This would be a good thing, because it resulted in far fewer casualties to both the US and Iraqi forces, as well as the civillian population.

But how could Bush use his "Saddam's regime was evil" line while admitting that they had done a deal with that regime to let them go in return for their surrender? They couldn't. Besides, for the Hussein's, that would not be an option. They would either have to stay in power or die, otherwise their victims would come looking for revenge.

But this way, they don't stay in power AND they appear to be dead. As I said in another post - it's a "Win-Win" situation.

Another factor that points to my theory, I believe, is the fact that the force that rescued Jessica Lynch, is the same force that led the raid that supposedly killed Uday and Qusay. Now we KNOW that the Lynch rescue was staged, so it is clear that this force is willing to stage events that would benefit Bush. Their involvement with this raid should set off alarm bells in reasonable people's minds.

Now, one has to wonder why Hussein has still not put out any of the evidence of Bush family treason that we know he must have. To me, it seems that it would be to Hussein's benefit to NOT have Bush thrown out of power, becuase then his deal would be meaningless, and he would be hunted down and killed either by his victims, or by the subsequent US admin.

As far as I am concerned it all makes sense, at least it does if you don't assume that Bush would ever do anything just because it is right, even if it would hurt him politically (as a bloodbath in Baghdad would have done), and you also accept that his attack on Hussein had nothing whatsoever to do with fear of WMD or because Saddam and his regime were evil, but because they wanted to gain control of Iraqi oil.

[ArkDem]

23. You have too much time on your

hands.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

24. Sounds like something Bush would say...

Rove's version would be "Keep 'em busy. Don't give 'em time to think..."

So, what specifically do you disagree with?

[Cujo]

26. why would you say that?

He presents a good arguement. It is known that the doubles had surgery to look like the originals, including any alterations to the teeth. This is a totally belivable scenario he lies out. and probably more true than "Uday and Qusay were hiding out together and we got them just when things were starting to look bad for us".

[ignatius]

25. Why were they still in Iraq and not in a little

island paradise somewhere? The entire thing is a staged ...we need some good news and we need it now..episode from the give 'em a good show guys..the same ones who staged the Jessica Lynch rescue.

Rumsfeld didn't need an office of disinformation, he has the whole damn administration.

They make PT Barnum proud.