Most Shameful Deed by this Nation

[Gringo]

Poll question: Most Shameful Deed by this Nation

What is it?

[DemoTex]

1. Slavery. Tough choices, my friend.

We are not a great country. I am ashamed, in fact.

[Chicagonian]

27. I gotta go with slavery as well-

The attrocities comitted to the 'native americans' were the result of war and conquest- they lost, we..."won". It wasn't really a fair fight- but the winners write the history books.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

2. thank god I can edit subject lines now.

Edited because I completely missed the first choice, genocide of the Indians.

Sorry about the lapse.

[proud patriot]

3. That was the first choice

At the top DisgustipatedinCA

On edit Oops well I see you got it ...:hi:

[jpgray]

4. Slavery, if only because the tragedy was more concentrated

The persecution of the Native Americans has gone on for some four hundred years and claimed I don't know how many lives. We were involved as a nation for the ugly latter stages.

[redeye]

5. Hiroshima and Nagasaki

The most lethal terrorist attacks in history; 9/11 is a very distant third.

[starroute]

6. Is there really any difference among them?

Let's see, we have:

genocide against non-whites
enslavement of non-whites
continuing discrimination against non-whites
atomic bombs dropped on non-whites
illegal war launched against non-whites
territory stolen from non-whites
forceful annexation of countries inhabited by non-whites
assassinations of non-white leaders

And, oh yes, somebody killed JFK and RFK as well.

So is there really any point in choosing?

[DemoTex]

7. Nope

All too close to call. All too egregious to claim. All will come crashing down on our smug little lives some day. We are living on borrowed time.

[redeye]

9. I have news for you

Human society is not divided only into whites vs. non-whites. Racial divisions are only one division of many, such as those of gender, class, ideology, religion, creed, education, political power...

[zoidberg]

21. What about the fire-bombing of Dresden?

That was a pretty bad moment on our history that involved whites.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. Although

Although I think Genocide of the Native americans is the worst act in and of itself, I feel it was more like a natural process seen played out over and over by different groups again and again throughout history. But the conquest of Iraq was more of a deliberate, planned and unjustified evil, committed at a point in our history when we should be a mature society, and conducted with the most blatant and disgusting self-righteousness and hypocrisy. Plus since I am here now and pay taxes I have contributed to this evil, thus I feel the shame myself, instead of it just being history.

[JCMach1]

10. Native Americans-- GENOCIDE in the First Degree

:(

[zizzer]

44. Two points on this...both bad

The Indians were dieing in droves BEFORE Christopher Columbus. The vikings brought small pox and several other venerial diseases with them some hundreds of years prior and the Indians were starting to die off.

What Canada did to the Natives there was all but complete, compared to them our attempt at genocide was a half hearted attempt.

Zizzer

[Scout]

46. Little Bighorn monument/memorial

I just visited this site last week ... originally, I had very little interest in going there, until I heard that FINALLY there was a memorial created and dedicated to/by the Native American nations that participated in the battle.

So, we went to the national park ... I found the Custer/US Army monument cold, heartless and definitely exclusive to their "side" of the battle ... a marble obelisk at the top of last stand hill, with smaller grave stone-like marble markers for sites where the soldiers were presumed or known to have fallen.

Then we walked over to the Native American memorial ... maybe it's just me, but I found that site much more emotionally and spiritually moving. It's circular, "gently" carved into a natural hill of the prairie. The spirit path through the wall that looks out directly to the Custer monument, inviting the souls of the soldiers into the circle ... the theme of the memorial is Peace Through Unity. The spirit riders on one side, the two walkways into the circle, and the spirit path for the souls of their adversaries, and the quotes by some of the participants... Having a hard time putting my feelings into words. I just had a totally different experience at the one memorial than at the other.

There was one quote in particular that I can't remember exactly, but it was something to the effect of the whites already had their own land and nation, and the NAs had their land that was given to them by the great spirit--the whites were not invited, the whites were not wanted or needed. I'm not repeating it nearly as eloquently as the original....

Anyway, the memorial at which I ended up crying was not the one to Custer's men.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. other? ALL OF THE ABOVE!

[Ani Yun Wiya]

12. The one at the top.

Because it was the largest number of deaths (tens of millions).
And the largest theft of property.
And because it allowed a place from which to commit the rest of the list.

[dudeness]

13. McDonalds..without a doubt..

:)

[Judi Lynn]

14. All of the above, Gringo

Yet the intentional murder of so many Native Americans, and the unconscionable devaluating of all of those people who were there first, the hateful mistreatment of the descendants even to this day is absolutely beyond understanding.

Pathetic attitudes in the people who came before us. Always so sure we are totally superior, so kind, so loving, so intelligent, so generous. You bet.

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

- Samuel P. Huntington

[plurality]

15. Indian massacres.

No one's come as close to actually accomplishing genocide as we did on that one. Still, the rest of the list shows that we haven't come too far since that standard setter.

[Brewman_Jax]

16. All of the above

Also add the Cold War division of the Third World and the installation and/or support of despotic regimes in the name of "fighting Communism."

[gottaB]

17. Slavery, but

Genocide is surely shameful. The problem is it had so many events and causes, it's hard to pinpoint its role in the history of the nation. If you had choices like the Indian Relocation Act, or Wounded Knee, those would be pretty shameful.

Slavery we can talk about as an institution, and see its pernicious effects on the nation. The fact that it was opposed but not outlawed casts a pall over the founding of the nation, and presents an ongoing challenge to our fundamental prinicples.

[slackmaster]

18. Genocide trumps slavery and mass murder

No problem choosing my vote.

[moondust]

50. Genocide paved the way for all the rest. n/t

[theboss]

19. Carrot Top

Always and forever.

[jonnyblitz]

20. ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!

I am waiting for some "Democrat" to justify the treatment of the Indians. If they can justify dropping atomic bombs on Japan they can justify any evil thing...

[kubi]

22. I will go with an other

The United States and England both knew what was happening to the Jews in nazi europe but decided to do nothing. You know Hitler might release all of these people then we get stuck with the refugee problem. Is it any wonder today that Israel tends not to listen to others.

[jobycom]

23. Original sin and slavery are inextricably intertwined

When Columbus et al invaded, they began enslaving the Indians. There's a letter still existant from the time of Columbus, whom we have a national day to celebrate, asking slave traders for more girls under the age of twelve, because the men were getting tired of the old women they were forced to use. Problem was, the "Indians" knew the surrounding countryside better than the invaders, and began fleeing the plantations (yes, Columbus immediately set up plantations) and fading into the hills. So the invaders came up with a clever plan. They would take the "Indians" to the Azores and the Canaries, and trade them for slaves who didn't know the land or speak the language-- Africans.

Sailors at the time wrote in their diaries that you could navigate from Europe to the New World (Yes, Columbus knew it was a new world and changed his family coat of arms to boast of discovering it) without a compass, simply by following the dead bodies of both types of slaves floating in the water. They were packed lack cattle into the holds of ships, and just tossed overboard when they died. They were packed in extra tight, because the slavetraders knew many would die on the journey.

It's often said that Clolumbus died broke, out of favor with the Court, and unaware that he had discovered a new world. He was in fact very rich, and he boasted often of discovering a new land. But he was out of favor with the Spanish court. On his first voyage back to Spain he brought several native Americans to show the queen. She was so upset that he had pried them from their land that she sent them back. As Columbus's atrocities grew worse, she no longer allowed him at the court.

Those who defend Columbus by saying he was no worse than anyone else of his time are wrong. Many thought he was a monster then.

So if that can be this nation's lowest moment, even though we weren't a nation yet, then it should be. And if it can't be, then perhaps we should list our celebration of the animal that started it all as our saddest commentary, if not our saddest moment.

[TXlib]

45. Here's an interesting book

Since this is something you obviously feel passionately about:

Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus, by Orson Scott Card.

Read the Amazon.com blurb...

[Astarho]

47. Plus Indian's lack of resistance to European disease

meant they needed more slaves, hence the Africans.

[ArkDem]

24. RFK was killed by a Jordainian nationalist and Arab

who was upset with RFK pledging to sell Phantom II Fighters to Israel. I don't think he was employed by the US government.

[jobycom]

26. Shhhhh!

It's easier if you pretend to agree with them.

[Gringo]

29. Uh huh hu he he huhu snicker slobber!

How smug. It may very well have played out that way, but it's also quite possible that Sirhan was under the influence of hypnosis, as he has claimed all these years. Even if the lone nut theory is true, it doesn't diminish the validity of the rest of this thread, or call for that kind of sneering smugness.

[jobycom]

39. Yes it does, and here's why

There is no question the native populations of America were largely exterminated through a coordinated campaign. There is no question that slavery existed, that in addition to the kidnapping and basic degridation of humanity it caused, it also led to countless and uncounted deaths. Nothing else on that list is in the slightest questionable.

And then the whole list of highly valid points is undermined with what you just admitted is an unproven theory.

That undermines the whole thread, by allowing those who want to forget what we as a nation are capable of to dismiss each of these views as crackpot.

The smugness was deserved.

[Gringo]

40. The point was not about the individual assassination

The fact is that progressive leaders have been murdered, or died under mysterious circumstances in far greater numbers than pro-establishment leaders in the last 50 years.

It may very well be that one or more of these was done by a "lone nut" - the most popular government cover story, but it defies all logic to suggest that they were all lone nuts. If that were the case you would see right-wingers getting killed all the time. The only one I ever remember being shot was Reagan, and he was shot by a good friend of the Bush family, John Hinckley, and though Reagan didn't die, he became much more of a doddering figurehead in a very much Bush-controlled White House. One or more of them may have been lone nuts, but I think it's far more likely that many or most these acts were carried out with the sanction or people high in our government.

So my point is about a pattern of murdered progressives (and almost no centrists/rightwingers) that points to conspiracy at some level of the government, not the JFK or RFK incident on its own.

[jobycom]

42. Doesn't defy logic

Logic works like this. Progressives don't like guns. They don't like violence. So they are less likely to murder an opponent. Establishment folk are more likely to resort to violence, especially against people who threaten them. JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X, Lincoln, etc, threatened them.

And there have been attempts on conservatives. Reagan, as you mention (though you try to explain that away as a conservative plot). Wallace. Ford (twice in one weak). McKinnley, if you want to go back. To make an accurate picture of whether there has been an anomoly you have to take all examples.

I'm not trying to prove anything about the assassinations here, only to say that it is far from proven for many people that the assasinations you list are the result of government plots. If you believe it, so be it. But to include a questionable detail on a list like this makes the whole list seem a matter of opinion. In my opinion.

[Terwilliger]

34. And Lee Harvey was a white American who didn't like JFK

and his policies where it came to Cuba

[ArkDem]

36. whatever...........

.

[Hubert Flottz]

25. The Most Shameful Act Was On 12/12/2000!

By five American in name only, supreme court justasses!

[drdigi420]

28. The drug wars

Outlawing drugs has caused massive destruction all over the world.
It kills millions every year.
It has undermined our freedom.
It has bred corruption.
It has furthered racism.
It has bankrupted our budgets and our morals.
It has turned our inner cities into war zones.
It ensures the suffering of children.
It enriches the Bush family and other cartels.
It finances terrorism.
It increases the harm caused by drug use.
It increases the level of crime in all our communities.
It breeds disrespect for the law.
It further shreds our tattered Constitution.

[Astarho]

30. Genocide

which includes among others:

Pequod War
Creek War
Trail of Tears
Long March
Sand Creek
Wounded Knee
Fimbres Expedition

and that's just off the top of my head

[JackDragna]

31. The Spanish-American War

Even more trumped-up jingoism than Iraq, if one bothers to peruse the media at the time.

[JackDragna]

32. And to add another people often forget..

The Sacco and Vanzetti murder trial. A trial that played on the public hatred of foreigners and leftists and ended with the execution of two innocent men. Shameful to the core.

[Blue_Chill]

33. CIA did not kill Allende

The CIA helped but the Right Wing of Chile was more then eager to accept aid in plotting to kill the president and destroy a nation. Blaming the CIA provides a cop out to those fucking nationalists in Chile that should rot in burning hell forever for what they did.

[Terwilliger]

35. The CIA killed Allende

Whatever Allende wanted to do, or whatever the right-wing in Chile believed in, Henry Kissinger and the CIA arranged for the death of Allende. They should be tried for those crimes, and the US should not interfere with the internal affairs of other nations anyway.

[Blue_Chill]

37. Sorry but you're wrong

The CIA provided help to those in Chile that requested it. They didn't force themselves onto anyone. Fact is the right wing bastards in Chile were furious that a man who cared about the people had been elected and they decided he had to go. They used Americas fear of communism to get the help they needed and the rest is history.

The CIA played a role in crashing Chiles economy. But the traitors in Chile are ultimately responsible.

[EAMcClure]

41. You are both right and wrong

A CIA operative did not assassinate President Allende. However, the momentum to have Allende displaced or murdered did not come directly from the Chilean right wing. The most pressure came from International Telephone and Telegraph. That corporation financed most of the bad press and neo-fascist militias.

Eric

[EAMcClure]

38. The firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden

Killing over 200,000 civilians who lived in non-millitary cities, for no other reason than revenge... to put an exclamation mark on "This if for the blitz! This is for Pearl Harbor!"

Those two acts are so ruthless and shameful that the possibility for forgiveness does not exist outside of the almighty.

Eric

[DEM FAN]

43. Selecting Bush As President. We Need Our Country Back.

:grr:

[KamaAina]

48. Gotta have at least one vote for Queen Lili'uokalani

monarch of a sovereign nation (a charter member of the Universal Postal Union, for instance) which was conquered by an "AstroTurf" rebellion of American expatriate sugar planters, backed up by the force of U.S. Marines. Hawai'i had no army or navy to speak of, only defensive cannon positions; not a shot was fired in anger at the Marines.

President Cleveland was outraged by the Overthrow and even offered to give the nice Queen her realm back; negotiations foundered, however, over the issue of amnesty for the rebellion's plotters.

(Sigh) Hey, at least we got ZIP codes and Interstate* highways out of it...

[fshrink]

49. #1 is the mother of all the others and sits at the core of

American guilt. Which has so many devastating effects.