If you believe ABC on JFK: Pass this test and you no longer will ...

[TruthIsAll]

Peter Jennings...Gotcha. So is this your legacy? To be a stooge, along with Posner? For shame.

Come on, DUers who defend the Warren Commission. Or have been swayed by ABC propaganda.. Take the test. If you pass (at least 23 correct) then you will be surprised to learn that you believed in conspiracy all along. But, if you fail, you will forever be known as a coincidence buff.

Now, take the quiz. And tell me you still believe Oswald did it.
In fact, you may be unaware of many of the facts stated here. If so, this will serve an education as well.

I hope that at least one open mind is changed by this quiz.


The JFK Assassination Quiz

All True or False:

1. The first NYT headline article reported that JFK was hit in the front of the throat.

2. Oswald had a below average marksmanship rating in the marines.

3. Nixon, who was in Dallas attending a Pepsi convention, at first claimed he wasn't sure of his whereabouts on 11/22/63.

4. Poppy Bush has never been able to account for his whereabouts on 11/22/63.

5. E. Howard Hunt was proven to be a liar in court in claiming that he was not in Dallas on 11/22/63.

6. The original JFK parade route was changed to go through Dealey Plaza.

7. No one has ever been able to duplicate the shooting "performance" of Oswald (three hits in 5.6 seconds) at Dealey Plaza, even after the tree blocking his view was cut down.

8. The murder weapon was first declared to be a German Mauser, but then it was changed to an Italian Mannlicher Carcano.

9. The Oswald rifle was considered defective, with a poorly aligned scope.

10. There is no taped recording or transcript of Oswald's interrogation by the Dallas police.

11. Oswald maintained he was a "just a patsy", proclaimed he was innocent and asked for a lawyer.

12. Lyndon Johnson, just before he died, claimed he never believed the Warren Commission report.

13. Richard Nixon was quoted as saying the Warren Report was the greatest fiction ever perpetrated.

14. The magic bullet, which supposedly passed through JFK and meandered through Connally's wrist and thigh, was found in pristine condition, having fewer grains of metal missing than grains left in Connally's hand and side.

15. Connally himself claimed that he was NOT hit by the same bullet that hit JFK, because he heard the shot and was was wounded AFTER he turned to see JFK hit.

16. Kennedy's brain was stolen from the archives.

17. JFK declared his intent to pull out of Vietnam after he was re-elected in 1964.

18. The Zapruder film clearly shows JFK falling backward and getting hit in the front just above the right ear.

19. The House Select Committee on Assassinations declared that the JFK murder was a conspiracy, primarily because acoustical evidence proved there were at least 4 shots fired.

20. Jack Ruby claimed that his he for killed Oswald so that Ms. Kennedy would not have to endure a trial.

21. Ruby asked the Warren Commission to fly him to Washington, D.C. so that he could testify freely, which he felt he could not do in Dallas.

22. The Army was ordered to "stand-down" in Dallas on 11/22/63.

23. Oswald was found calmly sipping a Coke by the Dallas police on the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository within a minute of the shots being fired.

24. Although scores of witnesses claimed to have seen and heard shots coming from the front (Grassy Knoll) the Warren Commission never interviewed these witnesses, and took the word of a single witness that shots were from behind on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

25. There is incontrovertible evidence that the autopsy photos were "touched-up" to hide the true nature of the head wounds.

26. The magic bullet theory is the lynchpin of the Warren Commission finding that three bullets were fired and Oswald acted alone. IF FOUR BULLETS WERE FIRED, THEN THERE HAD TO BE AT LEAST TWO GUNMAN.

27. The grains of metal missing from the "magic bullet" is less than the grains found in Connally

28. Gov. and Ms. Connally always claimed that he could not have been struck by the same bullet which hit JFK.

29. Acoustic evidence (HSCA) proved to a 95% PROBABILITY that at least 4 bullets were fired.

30. The Zapruder film clearly shows JFK being hit in the front right side of the head and FALLING SHARPLY BACK AND TO THE LEFT..

31. Isaac Newton's theory (F=MA) of force and acceleration, presented in Physics 101, is still valid today.

32. Political assassinations, as hard as it may be for many to accept, have taken place in the U.S. But none in Denial.


I could go on and on. Tell me you still believe Oswald did it.

[La_Serpiente]

1. I'll take a pass

[TruthIsAll]

42. So far, not one ABC/Warren Commission apologist has taken the test!

Why is that? Afraid they might pass? And realize that they believe in the conspiracy after all?

[Andyjunction]

52. okay, point by point-

1. The first NYT headline article reported that JFK was hit in the front of the throat.
I don't know if that's true or false but I do know it is completely irrelevant.

2. Oswald had a below average marksmanship rating in the marines.
False, but even if it were true he could have made the shots easily. The longest one was only 88 yards.

3. Nixon, who was in Dallas attending a Pepsi convention, at first claimed he wasn't sure of his whereabouts on 11/22/63.
Maybe true but also irrelevant.

4. Poppy Bush has never been able to account for his whereabouts on 11/22/63.
Again, irrelevant

5. E. Howard Hunt was proven to be a liar in court in claiming that he was not in Dallas on 11/22/63.
Wait... was it Hunt or Nixon or Bush? Irrelevant.

6. The original JFK parade route was changed to go through Dealey Plaza.
If the route was changed then what were all the people doing lining the street? Why was Zapruder filming if he didn't know JFK was coming down Elm?

7. No one has ever been able to duplicate the shooting "performance" of Oswald (three hits in 5.6 seconds) at Dealey Plaza, even after the tree blocking his view was cut down.
You're wrong about the time. It was over 8 seconds. You can see reactions to the first shot which missed setting the exact time.

8. The murder weapon was first declared to be a German Mauser, but then it was changed to an Italian Mannlicher Carcano.
Those two weapons look very similar, almost identical. A simple mistake.

9. The Oswald rifle was considered defective, with a poorly aligned scope.
Not true. The scope could have been misaligned when Oswald threw it behind the boxes where it was found.

10. There is no taped recording or transcript of Oswald's interrogation by the Dallas police.
Sadly true, but also irrelevant.

11. Oswald maintained he was a "just a patsy", proclaimed he was innocent and asked for a lawyer.
If he just killed the president why would we trust him at his word? He also killed a police officer. You never heard a murderer claim he was innocent before?

12. Lyndon Johnson, just before he died, claimed he never believed the Warren Commission report.
I have no idea but irrelevant.

13. Richard Nixon was quoted as saying the Warren Report was the greatest fiction ever perpetrated.
This contradicts #3 where you claim Nixon was involved.

14. The magic bullet, which supposedly passed through JFK and meandered through Connally's wrist and thigh, was found in pristine condition, having fewer grains of metal missing than grains left in Connally's hand and side.
Untrue, the bullet was not pristine. It was missing a chunk from the tip and a good deal more lead had been squeezed out of the base when it was flattened.

15. Connally himself claimed that he was NOT hit by the same bullet that hit JFK, because he heard the shot and was was wounded AFTER he turned to see JFK hit.
Connaly said he couldn't tell exactly. He had just been shot, after all.

16. Kennedy's brain was stolen from the archives.
Kennedy's brain was destroyed by Robert Kennedy so that his brother's remains would not become a circus side show for conspiracy theorists.

17. JFK declared his intent to pull out of Vietnam after he was re-elected in 1964.
Maybe true, I honestly don't know but am open to the possibilty.

18. The Zapruder film clearly shows JFK falling backward and getting hit in the front just above the right ear.
So wrong. The film shows JFK's head pitch forward at the point of impact and his brains go shooting up and forward. He then rocks back afterwards.

19. The House Select Committee on Assassinations declared that the JFK murder was a conspiracy, primarily because acoustical evidence proved there were at least 4 shots fired.
Not exactly. The audio evidence was the ONLY thing the used to reach that conclusion. It has since been shown that the tests were flawed because the officer was not where he needed to be to make it work.

20. Jack Ruby claimed that his he for killed Oswald so that Ms. Kennedy would not have to endure a trial.
Jack Ruby also claimed he was a hero because he got the guy who,"killed my president!"

21. Ruby asked the Warren Commission to fly him to Washington, D.C. so that he could testify freely, which he felt he could not do in Dallas.
Ruby was a loon and didn't understand why he wasn't being treated like a hero.

22. The Army was ordered to "stand-down" in Dallas on 11/22/63.
Good thing the Mexicans didn't decide to invade us that day.

23. Oswald was found calmly sipping a Coke by the Dallas police on the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository within a minute of the shots being fired.
Do you get winded going DOWN stairs? I don't.

24. Although scores of witnesses claimed to have seen and heard shots coming from the front (Grassy Knoll) the Warren Commission never interviewed these witnesses, and took the word of a single witness that shots were from behind on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
More witnesses said they thought the shot came from the book depository.

25. There is incontrovertible evidence that the autopsy photos were "touched-up" to hide the true nature of the head wounds.
I don't think so.

26. The magic bullet theory is the lynchpin of the Warren Commission finding that three bullets were fired and Oswald acted alone. IF FOUR BULLETS WERE FIRED, THEN THERE HAD TO BE AT LEAST TWO GUNMAN.
True!! Finally! Good thing the single bullet is easily shown to be a fact to anyone willing to accept the obvious.

27. The grains of metal missing from the "magic bullet" is less than the grains found in Connally
You already said this.

28. Gov. and Ms. Connally always claimed that he could not have been struck by the same bullet which hit JFK.
Not true, they were unable to tell exactly what happened, this is another repeat.

29. Acoustic evidence (HSCA) proved to a 95% PROBABILITY that at least 4 bullets were fired.
True IF the officer was at a specific point at the corner of Elm street. Photographic evidence shows he was nearly a block away. Another repeat.

30. The Zapruder film clearly shows JFK being hit in the front right side of the head and FALLING SHARPLY BACK AND TO THE LEFT..
Another repeat. His head goes forward first, then back.

31. Isaac Newton's theory (F=MA) of force and acceleration, presented in Physics 101, is still valid today.
I would hope so. It proves the shot came from behind.

32. Political assassinations, as hard as it may be for many to accept, have taken place in the U.S. But none in Denial.
I don't understand this one, sorry.

[TruthIsAll]

57. Thanks for taking the test. But in so doing, you reveal your ignorance..

Many of your answers are "Irrelevant". Great answer. Stay inside your box.

1. The first NYT headline article reported that JFK was hit in the front of the throat.
You say:
I don't know if that's true or false but I do know it is completely irrelevant.

Right away, you show your ignorance. Shot in the front and IRRELEVANT?
I WILL JUST STOP RIGHT HERE. NO FURTHER REFUTATION OF YOU IS NECESSARY. I COULD GO ON POINT BY POINT BUT WHY BOTHER? OK, I WILL CONTINUE ANYWAY. I WANT TO FIND SOME MORE OF YOUR NUGGETS OF WISDOM.

2. Oswald had a below average marksmanship rating in the marines.
False, but even if it were true he could have made the shots easily. The longest one was only 88 yards.
EASILY? NO ONE HAS EVER DUPLICATED IT. IN 40 YEARS.

3. Nixon, who was in Dallas attending a Pepsi convention, at first claimed he wasn't sure of his whereabouts on 11/22/63.
Maybe true but also irrelevant.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU WERE THAT DAY?

4. Poppy Bush has never been able to account for his whereabouts on 11/22/63.
Again, irrelevant
DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU WERE THAT DAY?

5. E. Howard Hunt was proven to be a liar in court in claiming that he was not in Dallas on 11/22/63.
Wait... was it Hunt or Nixon or Bush? Irrelevant.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU WERE THAT DAY? WHY DID HE LIE ABOUT IT IN COURT?

6. The original JFK parade route was changed to go through Dealey Plaza.
If the route was changed then what were all the people doing lining the street? Why was Zapruder filming if he didn't know JFK was coming down Elm?
THEY CHANGED IT DAYS BEFORE...THAT'S WHY.

7. No one has ever been able to duplicate the shooting "performance" of Oswald (three hits in 5.6 seconds) at Dealey Plaza, even after the tree blocking his view was cut down.
You're wrong about the time. It was over 8 seconds. You can see reactions to the first shot which missed setting the exact time.

NO IT WAS 5.6 SECONDS. THAT'S FROM THE ZAPRUDER FILM. AND CHECK THE WARREN REPORT. AND READ "SIX SECONDS IN DALLAS" BY JOSIAH THOMPSON.

8. The murder weapon was first declared to be a German Mauser, but then it was changed to an Italian Mannlicher Carcano.
Those two weapons look very similar, almost identical. A simple mistake.
A SIMPLE MISTAKE? OH, I SEE. MUST BE IF YOU SAY SO. AND THEY LOOK ALIKE? HOW DO YOU KNOW? DID YOU EVER SEE ONE?

9. The Oswald rifle was considered defective, with a poorly aligned scope.
Not true. The scope could have been misaligned when Oswald threw it behind the boxes where it was found.
THE WARREN COMMSSION SAID THE CARTRIDGES WERE FOUND NEATLY PLACED ON THE FLOOR. BUT HE WAS IN SUCH A RUSH THAT HE THREW DOWN THE RIFLE. SEEMS CONTRADICTORY TO ME. DENIAL.DENIAL.DENIAL. WHAT A JOKE.

10. There is no taped recording or transcript of Oswald's interrogation by the Dallas police.
Sadly true, but also irrelevant.
IRRELEVANT? WHY, BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENSE?

11. Oswald maintained he was a "just a patsy", proclaimed he was innocent and asked for a lawyer.
If he just killed the president why would we trust him at his word? He also killed a police officer. You never heard a murderer claim he was innocent before?
DID HE GET HIS LAWYER? NO. DID HE GET SHOT SOON AFTER? YES. I THOUGHT HE KILLED JFK FOR THE GLORY. YOU WOULD THINK HE WOULD BE PROUD.

12. Lyndon Johnson, just before he died, claimed he never believed the Warren Commission report.
I have no idea but irrelevant.
LBJ SAYS HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IT AND YOU SAY THAT IS IRRELEVANT?

13. Richard Nixon was quoted as saying the Warren Report was the greatest fiction ever perpetrated.
This contradicts #3 where you claim Nixon was involved.
I NEVER SAID HE WAS INVOLVED. I ONLY SAID THAT HE "FORGOT" HE WAS IN DALLAS THAT DAY. DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

14. The magic bullet, which supposedly passed through JFK and meandered through Connally's wrist and thigh, was found in pristine condition, having fewer grains of metal missing than grains left in Connally's hand and side.
Untrue, the bullet was not pristine. It was missing a chunk from the tip and a good deal more lead had been squeezed out of the base when it was flattened.
WRONG. IT WAS PRISTINE. LOOK AT #399. STOP THE BS.

15. Connally himself claimed that he was NOT hit by the same bullet that hit JFK, because he heard the shot and was was wounded AFTER he turned to see JFK hit.
Connaly said he couldn't tell exactly. He had just been shot, after all.
WRONG. CONNALLY DAID HE DEFINITELY WAS NOT HIT BY THE SAME BULLET, BECAUSE HE HEARD THE SOUND OF THE BULLET, CAUSING HIM TO TURN AROUND. IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW, BULLETS TRAVEL MUCH FASTER THAN SOUND.

16. Kennedy's brain was stolen from the archives.
Kennedy's brain was destroyed by Robert Kennedy so that his brother's remains would not become a circus side show for conspiracy theorists.
THAT IS A MYTH. YOU REALLY EXPECT US TO BELIEVE THAT RFK WAS AFRAID THEY WOULD PARADE JFK'S BRAIN AROUND TOWN?

17. JFK declared his intent to pull out of Vietnam after he was re-elected in 1964.
Maybe true, I honestly don't know but am open to the possibilty.
IT WAS TRUE. AND HIS ENEMIES DID NOT LIKE THE IDEA.

18. The Zapruder film clearly shows JFK falling backward and getting hit in the front just above the right ear.
So wrong. The film shows JFK's head pitch forward at the point of impact and his brains go shooting up and forward. He then rocks back afterwards.
COME ON. DENY. DENY. DENY. SHOULD I BELIEVE YOU OR MY LYING EYES?

19. The House Select Committee on Assassinations declared that the JFK murder was a conspiracy, primarily because acoustical evidence proved there were at least 4 shots fired.
Not exactly. The audio evidence was the ONLY thing the used to reach that conclusion. It has since been shown that the tests were flawed because the officer was not where he needed to be to make it work.
THE TESTS WERE CONFIRMED BY A NUMBER OF EXPERTS. AND THEY WERE FOUND TO SYNCHRONIZE WITH THE ZAPRUDER FILM. I BELIEVE THE EXPERTS.

20. Jack Ruby claimed that his he for killed Oswald so that Ms. Kennedy would not have to endure a trial.
Jack Ruby also claimed he was a hero because he got the guy who,"killed my president!"
AND YOU BELIEVE THAT B.S. HE WAS A GUN-RUNNER WHO RAN WEAPONS TO THE ANTI-CASTRO CUBANS. WHY WOULD HE DO THAT IF JFK WAS AGAINST IT?

21. Ruby asked the Warren Commission to fly him to Washington, D.C. so that he could testify freely, which he felt he could not do in Dallas.
Ruby was a loon and didn't understand why he wasn't being treated like a hero.
RUBY WAS IN DEBT TO THE MAFIA. ONLY YOU SAY HE WAS A LOON. HOW DID HE GET IN THE BASEMENT?

22. The Army was ordered to "stand-down" in Dallas on 11/22/63.
Good thing the Mexicans didn't decide to invade us that day.
YOU AVOID THE FACT WITH A LAME JOKE. IS THAT YOUR BEST ANSWER?

23. Oswald was found calmly sipping a Coke by the Dallas police on the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository within a minute of the shots being fired.
Do you get winded going DOWN stairs? I don't.
HE RAN DOWN 5 FLOORS IN 90 SECONDS AND WAS FOUND CALMLY SIPPING A COKE. NO BIG DEAL. SURE. SO YOU ARE IN GOOD SHAPE, HUH. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU CALMLY DOWNING A COKE AFTER SHOOTING THE PRESIDENT.

24. Although scores of witnesses claimed to have seen and heard shots coming from the front (Grassy Knoll) the Warren Commission never interviewed these witnesses, and took the word of a single witness that shots were from behind on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
More witnesses said they thought the shot came from the book depository.
NOT TRUE. MOST SAID THE GRASSY KNOLL. AND MANY RAN TO THE KNOLL RIGHT AFTER THE SHOTS WERE FIRED. AT LEAST ONE PERSON SAW TWO GUNMEN BEHIND THE KNOLL. CHECK YOUR FACTS. WATCH THE MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL

25. There is incontrovertible evidence that the autopsy photos were "touched-up" to hide the true nature of the head wounds.
I don't think so.
YOU DON'T THINK SO? IS THAT YOUR ANSWER. READ NEST EVIDENCE BY DAVID LIFTON. OF COURSE, YOU PROBABLY NEVER HEARD OF THE BOOK.

26. The magic bullet theory is the lynchpin of the Warren Commission finding that three bullets were fired and Oswald acted alone. IF FOUR BULLETS WERE FIRED, THEN THERE HAD TO BE AT LEAST TWO GUNMAN.
True!! Finally! Good thing the single bullet is easily shown to be a fact to anyone willing to accept the obvious.

SO YOU AGREE THERE HAD TO BE AT LEAST TWO GUNMEN. BECAUSE AT LEAST 4 BULLETS WERE FIRED. I AM GLAD YOU AGREE. THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY.

27. The grains of metal missing from the "magic bullet" is less than the grains found in Connally
You already said this.
I KNOW. BUT IT IS WORTH REPEATING.

28. Gov. and Ms. Connally always claimed that he could not have been struck by the same bullet which hit JFK.
Not true, they were unable to tell exactly what happened, this is another repeat.
TRUE. I DID.

29. Acoustic evidence (HSCA) proved to a 95% PROBABILITY that at least 4 bullets were fired.
True IF the officer was at a specific point at the corner of Elm street. Photographic evidence shows he was nearly a block away. Another repeat.
THIS EVIDENCE WAS PRESENTED AT THE HSCA IN 1977. WERE YOU ALIVE THEN? YOU ARE TOTALLY IGNORANT OF THE HSCA FINDINGS.

30. The Zapruder film clearly shows JFK being hit in the front right side of the head and FALLING SHARPLY BACK AND TO THE LEFT..
Another repeat. His head goes forward first, then back.
ONCE AGAIN, WORTH REPEATING. WHAT FILM ARE YOU WATCHING?

31. Isaac Newton's theory (F=MA) of force and acceleration, presented in Physics 101, is still valid today.
I would hope so. It proves the shot came from behind.
THE FILM SAYS OTHERWISE. BACK. TO THE LEFT. BACK. TO THE LEFT.
BACK. TO THE LEFT. BACK. TO THE LEFT. BACK. TO THE LEFT.

GOT IT YET?

32. Political assassinations, as hard as it may be for many to accept, have taken place in the U.S. But none in Denial.
I don't understand this one, sorry.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? OR YOU REFUSE TO CONCEDE THAT IT IS TRUE? WHICH IS IT?

[Andyjunction]

60. I totally aced that test =P

When I first started getting into politics as a teenager, I was conservative. Death penalty, star wars, all that. I even registered Rebublican (God forgive me). As I grew and started thinking objectively about the world I became a liberal.

The same thing happened with my beliefs about the JFK assassination. I was a true believer in all the conspiracy theories and I thrived on learning all I could about it. But eventually I realized the truth and couldn't deny it no matter how much I wanted to. It was the Zapruder film more than anything that made me change my mind. Everything you need to know about what actually happened is there on that film if you are willing to actually look.

[Andyjunction]

74. yessir, nosir, yessir, nosir

1. What does it matter what they said in the New York Times the next day? They got it wrong. Whatever their headline said has absolutely no bearing on what really happened. Remember Dewey Beats Truman?

2. Nobody has ever been able to hit a target at 88 yards moving only about 3-5 MPH? That's ridiculous. It was an easy shot. the closest target at a military shooting range is 50 yards. And that's without a scope.

3. Not born.

4. Not born.

5. Not born. Hunt said he was in washington D.C. Why do you think he was lying? Wait, you said it was proven he was lying. What's the proof? Please don't claim he's one of the bums arrested. That one has mold on it.

6. It wasn't changed, sorry. The motorcade had to go down Elm to get on the Stemmon's Freeway and back to Love Field airport. It's the only way it could have gone.

7. They did not say it was 5.6 seconds. They said they couldn't be sure but that was the minimum. They said it could have been as much as 7.9, these are facts, sorry.

8. Uhm... yes, actually. They are both bolt-action rifles and look almost exactly the same.

9. Cartridges neatly placed on the floor? They are ejected when you work the bolt. I don't know how anyone could determine they had been placed where they were found rather than having been ejected normally. Could you provide me with a link showing that they even made such a claim, please?

10. The Dallas cops didn't give Oswald the lawyer he asked for. He had just killed the president and they were pumping him for information before he got "lawyered up". They kept no records most likely because they knew it would be inadmissable at trial since he'd asked for a lawyer. This is a pretty common tactic used by police and this was a pretty big murder. One of the biggest ever.

11. I can't say what Oswald was thinking for sure, and neither can you.

12. The personal opinion of LBJ doesn't matter any more than my personal opinion. It's best to stick to things which can be proven or disproven.

13. Then what does it have to do with anything?

14. You know... words have definitions. The definition of the word pristine does not describe the shape of that bullet. You can say it was in pretty good shape, but you just cannot call it pristine.

15. We already went over this. You're wrong, sorry.

16. It's not proven but it's the theory which makes the most sense.

17. I've yet to see any real proof of this claim. I'd like to believe it but I'll need some evidence, more than just soandso said she heard someone say it.

18. You didn't really add anything here so there's nothing I can reply to.

19. Even the officer with the open microphone testified that he was nowhere near the corner. There are photos of him too. Believe what you like.

20. That's quite a claim. Any evidence to back it up? Ruby was a small time strip club owner.

21. Everyone who knew Ruby said he was a loon. In debt to the mafia? You mean he liked to play the numbers maybe? That's pretty vague.

22. Hey, that was a pretty good joke. The Army was supposed to be doing what? Lining Elm Street? I don't think so.

23. Was it five floors in 90 seconds? I'll take your word for it. That wou;dn't leave me winded, let alone a 24 year old ex-marine.

24. I've seen it, seen all of them many times. That doesn't change the fact that most people identified the shot as having come from the book depository.

25. There is no evidence of autopsy photo fakery. Despite claims to the contrary.

26. I agreed that if there were four shots then there was a second gunman. I do not agree that there were four shots.

The rest of the list is just repetition. Glad I could clear that up for you :hi:

[Nederland]

144. Back and to the Left

31. Isaac Newton's theory (F=MA) of force and acceleration, presented in Physics 101, is still valid today.
I would hope so. It proves the shot came from behind.
THE FILM SAYS OTHERWISE. BACK. TO THE LEFT. BACK. TO THE LEFT.
BACK. TO THE LEFT. BACK. TO THE LEFT. BACK. TO THE LEFT.

There are many things about the assassination that are in question. The involvement of LBJ/Nixon/CIA/Mafia. The magic bullet. The subsequent assassination of Oswald. Etc. However, if there is one thing that I am certain of it is that the bullet that killed Kennedy came from behind. The Zapruder film proves it, and your simplistic dismissal of that fact merely demonstrates a poor understanding of physics.

There are two facts that can be gleaned from watching the Zapruder film:

1) A significant quantity of JFK's brain matter was thrown forward.
2) JFK's body lurched back and to the left.

Any theory of the bullet that killed JFK must explain both of these facts, not just one. If the shot came from behind, the back and left motion of the body, while unusual, is not completely unexplainable. Numerous people have offered up explanations for the motion, all of which are perfectly plausible and consistent with the laws of physics. However, I've never heard anyone explain how a frontal shot could possibly cause the forward discharge of brain matter. The physics just don't make sense. Brain matter accelerated by impact with a bullet will travel in the same direction of the bullet, not the opposite way. Sure, the back and left motion of the body is consistent with a frontal shot, but you can't simply ignore the other facts that the film reveals.

Like I said at the beginning, I've never been convinced that their wasn't a conspiracy of some sort. A lot of things about the investigation and the WC report stink. However, I've never doubted that the shot that killed Kennedy came from behind. Assuming you believe that Zapruder film is genuine, its the only explanation that makes sense.

[regnaD kciN]

114. Corrections to a couple of your "replies"...

19. The House Select Committee on Assassinations declared that the JFK murder was a conspiracy, primarily because acoustical evidence proved there were at least 4 shots fired.
Not exactly. The audio evidence was the ONLY thing the used to reach that conclusion. It has since been shown that the tests were flawed because the officer was not where he needed to be to make it work.

Not true. The HSCA report contained tests showing a 95% likelhood of four shots. Shortly thereafter, a report was released claiming the results were inconclusive. However, a decade or so later, the same tape was analyzed by one of the top acoustics labs in the world, using state-of-the-art tools and methods which weren't available during the earlier tests. They not only ratified the results of the first round of tests, but increased their probability of indicating four shots from 95% to over 99%. That means there is less than a 1% possibility of the Warren Commission's conclusion being correct, even if no other evidence had come to light to cast doubt upon it.


23. Oswald was found calmly sipping a Coke by the Dallas police on the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository within a minute of the shots being fired.
Do you get winded going DOWN stairs? I don't.


As you so like to say, "irrelevant." What isn't irrelevant is that they have a very precise idea (based on radio transmissions and the like) of how long it took after the shooting for the police officer to get to the cafeteria and confront Oswald. And, even after repeated attempts, investigators were not able to get from the supposed "assassin's perch" on the sixth floor to the cafeteria in anything close to that time, whether using elevators, stairs, or a combination of the two. When you consider that, were the Warren conclusion to be true, Oswald would have not only had to run and/or take the elevator straight to the cafeteria, but would also have had to hide the rifle before going down and buy the Coke from the cafeteria's vending machine afterwards, the timing goes from impossible to absurd.

[Andyjunction]

146. a few points

19. The fact remains that all the tests required the officer with the open microphone to be at the corner of Elm street. All of their "science" was based on his location at the time of the first shot. The officer himself consistently claimed that he was a block away and photographs have proven that he was, in fact, not in the proper location.

23. The two shots which hit Kennedy and Connally had to have come from that window in the book depository. There is no other place from which they could have come. So somebody fired those shots from the sniper's nest, whether it was Oswald or somebody else. If the police actually got there as fast as you say then they should have caught the actual shooter. The exact amount of time it took them cannot be known, it's just a guess on their part. I'd like to see some actual evidence that the police encountered Oswald as quickly as you say they did or that they even claimed such a thing. I think it's absurd that they could pin it down to a matter of seconds.

[Andyjunction]

148. SHOCKING NEW PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE!!!

As this photo clearly shows, Oswald and Ruby were founding members of the band The Dead Kennedy's

[bobbyboucher]

182. Clever tactic.

What do you call it?

[buycitgo]

2. merci bien

what's the link to the still-aborning new site, ABC lies, in which the authors really go after ABC/Westin/Jennings?

must read TV

[pretzel4gore]

9. $10 million a year!

that's what i recall reading the mediaslut Jennings gets.....
and what does the joker do? not journalism, that's for sure!

[onebigbadwulf]

3. i just want to know how abc addressed

1. head back and to the left

2. magic bullet pausing in air

3. the motorcade stopping for no reason

4. the scope misaligned


any one of those 4 makes me believe more than ozwald

[buycitgo]

4. they showed the Zapruder film, but........

stopped it before the head shot, so they didn't specifically deal with that particular aspect

they "explained" the magic bullet by dint of a computer recreation, which repositioned JFK/Connally so that the bullet didn't have to go up, stop, turn, then turn again

they also claimed that the bullet was not pristine, but deformed; therefore 'explaining away' the lack of deformation. however, they didn't deal with the multi-grain weight loss, apparently.

dunno about the limo slowing....didn't see show.

what I've said is based on others' relaying of their viewings

[Octafish]

5. Magic Bullet vs. Imposter Bullets

Guess which one is the Magic Bullet found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital*?



If you guessed CE 399 (first from the left), you're a winner!

Those who guessed the other ones truly believe in magic.

The other bullets were fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano allegedly owned by Oswald into water, cotton wadding, and a sheep bone (from left to right). Notice how the only ones to remain relatively undamaged are the ones shot into water.

* The stretcher was not used in treating either JFK or Connally.

[buycitgo]

6. they really are brazen, aren't they

reminds me of the witch scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail

amazing that a bullet could hit a major bone like the wrist, hit it HARD enough to have enough velocity to bounce back out, then penetrate and lodge in his leg, leaving almost NO deformation!

how stupid do they expect people to be???????

[jsw_81]

18. The "magic" bullet

...slowed considerably after passing through the soft tissue in the president's throat. That's why it was relatively intact. But it was FAR from "pristine" like the conspiracy goofballs would have you believe. One side was partially flattened, and it was proven to have been fired from Oswald's rifle.

Anybody who wants to posit that CE 399 (the "pristine" bullet) was faked and planted by conspirators needs to supply plausible answers to all of the following questions. Why did the conspirators . . .

1. Plant it in a location where it could easily have been lost?
2. Plant a bullet that was only "slightly" damaged if its role was to have passed through at least the President? Why not shoot up some livestock and get a bullet a bit more mangled?
3. Plant it before it could have been known how many other bullets would be recovered? How could they have known that CE 399 would not be the "one bullet too many" that would blow the whole plot?
4. Plant the bullet so it was found before it was known how much lead was in JFK's neck/upper back? What if a big chunk of lead was found in JFK's neck or upper back, a chunk too big to have come from CE 399?

More here

[buycitgo]

20. please, that's the lame excuse provided by the apologists

any bullet with enough velocity to BURY itself in his leg after striking his wrist is going to have a hell of a lot more damage done to it than the one in the picture above

look at the picture of the bullets, for christ's sake.

the magic bullet isn't even SLIGHTLY flattened at the nose (if it was tumbling as it left Conally's chest, it'd have made a HUGE exit wound, destroying his lung, and probably killing him then and there), and its shape suggests its hitting some very forgiving media.....definitely not (JFK) skin, bone, skin, cloth, cloth; then connally: cloth, cloth, skin, bone, lung, bone, skin, cloth, cloth, skin, bone, cloth, skin. did I miss any surfaces it penetrated? oh yeah, if you also want to believe the ridiculous bunching theory, the bullet also went through his jacket and shirt at least once each before it hit his neck


you're being amazingly credulous

[jsw_81]

22. Does this look "pristine" to you?

This (above) is the bullet that hit Kennedy and Connally. Below we see a test bullet that was fired into a human wrist at 1,100 feet per second (*faster* than the bullet that hit Kennedy and Connally):



As for being credulous, keep in mind that you're the one siding with the nutjobs who believe in a massive Mafia/CIA/KGB/Bush/Nixon/oil bidness/French contract killer/Cuban/Secret Service/Dallas Police conspiracy without a single shred of credible evidence.

[Junkdrawer]

33. Looks like a bullet shot from Oswald's gun into wadding to me...

BTW: Cyril Wecht is still waiting for someone to shoot a bullet, have it do all the damage the magic bullet is supposed to have done, and still look that good.

If you have done that (or know anyone who has done that) email him at [e-mail] - you can be famous!

[Octafish]

64. That looks close to the pictures of the bullets shot into water...

... or cotton wadding. The base of the bullet, the side facing the hot gas and high-pressure of the gunpowder in the casing, of course is going to be disfigured. Besides, even a modern television newsman is smart enough to look at the rest of the projectile to make judgments. In the case of the Magic Bullet, there is a negligible amount of distortion, certainly not in keeping with similar bullets fired through bone. Why the rush to judgment?

[itcfish]

152. We should Have

These bullets in Iraq. They would work wonders and and our troops could come home.

[Junkdrawer]

36. How about: "You wanted a bullet that could be forensically matched...

back to Oswald's rifle, thought you had three shots to work with, and so you planted one with clearly readable striations. Only later was it established that there was a "missed shot into the curb" that required the "magic path".

[Andyjunction]

175. help me

I'm trying to understand this but just can't. I thought the conspiracy theories all hinged on there being four shots. Oh wait, I forgot, the conspiracy theories don't have to abide by simple rules of logic. Now I understand.

[knight_of_the_star]

13. I believe in Magick

But I know for a fact that there is no way using that to make a bullet defy the laws of phsyics in such a blatant and obvious way. What was one of Newton's laws again, "An obejct at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force."

I watched the documentaries that History Channel had on the subject yesterday. In those they prove that Oswald didn't fire ANY ofthe shots and it was in fact three shooters that were contract killers contaced by the Corsican Mob out of Marsielle (and they were able to verify this) by an unknown person, possibly the don of the Mafia in New Orleans. I'm willing to bet that it was SOMEONE inside the CIA who tapped the Mafia though, simply because they also had someone who as a Colonel in Spec Ops during the 1960s and served under Kennedy, and he reviewed the security situation involving the USS and concluded that someone from the inside ordered them to stand down based on his knowledge and experience.

[nolabels]

176. ABC has a heavy concentration of spooks

Does it strike anybody stange that the Zapruder film was the only real film to get out?

http://www.ciajfk.com/stan.html
JFK ASSASSINATION TIMELINE CHART


The JFK Assassination Timeline Chart, is a 265 or 150 page book about the crime, case and "conviction" of the century - without a fair trial? The key figures in the research of the JFK Timeline Chart who are tied to Dimitri and his brother George De Mohrenschildt or the JFK assassination. The Timeline Chart was developed from Oswald's Closest Friend; The George De Mohrenschildt Story.

Some of the major discoveries include:
De M and his brother worked for Henry Luce's Time-Life

Mrs. De M worked with Abe Zapruder and Olga Fehmer at clothing operation Nardis of Dallas in 1953. Olga's daughter became senior officer at CIA. Abe's son was lawyer for Department of Justice on November 22, 1963. Zapruder and de M belonged to same CIA organization Dallas Council on World Affairs founded by George H.W. Bush's mentor, Neil Mallon.

George H.W. Bush knew de M since 1942. Bay of Pigs was Bush's Baby Operation Zapata.

Allen Dulles knew de M's brother in 1953.

De M and his brother knew 50 CIA agents, consultants and operatives. De Mohrenschildt's father-in-law, Samuel Walter Washington was in charge of more than 250 CIA agents 1950-53.

De M knew Jackie Kennedy and her mother Janet Bouvier in 1938.

De M knew Mrs. Kennedy's dress designer Oleg Cassini and his brother Igor. Igor's wife Charlene (Wrightsman) Cassini committed suicide on April 7, 1963, while de Mohrenschildt is hanging out with Oswald.

De M knew JFK's landlord, C. Michael Paul friend of Charlene (Wrightsman) Cassini.
(snip)

Another link from the thread (that thing is just full of em)

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853

What I find even more interesting is why Oswald was snuffed out, my thinking is all them people in Dallas could have not of came forward if he was still alive and could refute the stories of the Lone Nut. I heard another researcher on the radio the other day about the damming evidence making the CIA complicit with Oswald in Mexico City several weeks before the Murder. Even for the layman (like me) for those people to put so much effort into this guy when he was a virtual nothing until the Dallas, goes beyond credulity

http://www.sumeria.net/politics/shadv3.html
(snip)

One of the first researchers to reveal the connections between the U.S. government and the Nazis, was a lady named Mae Brussell of Carmel, California. Her career as a conspiracy researcher and host of the weekly radio program "World Watchers International" began with the Kennedy assassination. "In ferreting out every morsel from the Warren Report," writes Jonathan Vankin, author of the book "Conspiracies, Cover-ups and Crimes," "supplementing her research with untold amounts of reading from the 'New York Times' to 'Soldier of Fortune,' Brussell discovered not merely a conspiracy of a few renegade CIA agents, Mafiosi, and Castro haters behind Kennedy's death, but a vast, invisible institutional structure layered into the very fabric of the U.S. political system.

"Comprising the government within a government were not just spies, gangsters, and Cubans, but Nazis. Mae found that many of the commission witnesses -- whose testimony established Oswald as a lone nut' -- had never even spoken to Oswald, or knew him only slightly. The bulk of them were White Russian emigres living in Dallas. Extreme in their anti-Communism, they were often affiliated with groups set up by the SS in World War II -- Eastern European ethnic armies used by the Nazis to carry out their dirtiest work.

"Brussell also discovered an episode from history rarely reported in the media, and not often taught in universities. Those same collaborationist groups were absorbed by United States intelligence agencies. They hooked up with the spy net of German General Reinhard Gehlen, Hitler's Eastern Front espionage chief."

"'This is a story of how key Nazis . . . anticipated military disaster and laid plans to transplant nazism, intact but disguised, in havens in the West,' wrote Mae Brussell in 1983. She didn't author too many articles, but this one, 'The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination' (in 'The Rebel,' a short-lived political magazine published by 'Hustler' impresario Larry Flynt), was definitive, albeit convoluted.
(snip)

I would imagine this guy has some good stuff too
This site
http://history-matters.com/
links to his also
http://www.abclies.com/
(snip)
Introduction to the Site
This web site is meant to examine and explore the relationship between the three men above and the 40th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination. How did it come to pass that ABC President David Westin, anchor man Peter Jennings, and writer and researcher Gus Russo met, approved and then decided to concoct a huge deception that is meant to recycle and resuscitate a forty year old deception that very few people believe? We try to do that here in order for the reader to fully understand what and why ABC is doing on November 20, 2003.

We trace and describe some previous network specials on the subject and how they were influenced and controlled by high officials inside and outside the government. Former Warren Commissoner John McCloy exerted enormous influence over a four-part 1967 CBS special on the assassination itself, and the CIA and Sarnoff family (owners of NBC at the time) had direct ties to a 1967 NBC special on Jim Garrison. We also trace the recent history of ABC, especially the momentous event that Andy Boehm and Jim DiEugenio describe in the 2003 Introduction and original 1987 article entitled "The Seizing of the American Broadcasting Company." This piece describes in detail an example of how the government can influence what is shown --- and not shown --- on the broadcast airwaves that are theoretically controlled by the citizens of this country. We suggest the reader read this bloc of articles first.

We then move on and show as directly as we can how ABC came to the lamentable decision to produce a documentary that is simply insupportable by the facts, circumstances, and evidence. This bloc of articles includes a profile of ABC News President David Westin, how he came to power and how his regime has differed markedly from his legendary predecessor Roone Arledge. We then describe the career of a reporter who sets a paradigm and precedent for ABC's actions on this case, reporter John Stossel who, although billed originally as a consumer advocate, is something short of that. We then examine aspects of the career of the chief consultant on this special, Gus Russo: his career in the Kennedy research field, his differing beliefs at times, and his dubious claim of a Pulitzer nomination. We then connect Russo to the main players behind the November 20th special, Jennings and Mark Obenhaus. We do this through the previous production of theirs based upon the controversial and specious book by Seymour Hersh, The Dark Side of Camelot
(snip)

[Ladyhawk]

7. Just the footage of the assassination makes me wonder a bit.

I don't know too much about the assassination or the conspiracy theories around it. All I know is that in the color footage it looks like JFK was hit in the right temple or just behind it, which means the shot didn't come from behind.

[jsw_81]

16. It only looks that way if you're clueless about what bullets do to flesh

And to those of us who DO know what bullets can do it's rather obvious that Kennedy was hit from behind. Remember, small entry wound...BIG exit wound. It's not that complicated. Of course, the conspiracy nutters will try to say that the Zapruder film was "doctored" but they haven't a single shred of evidence to support that theory.

[Octafish]

63. Can you try to be a bit more condescending...

... especially to those who don't agree with J Edgar Hoover and Allen Dulles and the Warren Commission? Those of us who have worked in emergency rooms may have a better understanding than the person who plays a doctor on television. So the fuck what?

The doctors at Parkland said the President's throat wound was an entrance wound. They also said the side to back of his head was blown out. They said that was an exit wound.

These doctors did all they could to save the President. When it became obvious he was not going to live, the Secret Service took over.

The doctors said they didn't get a chance to wash down and identify all the trauma and document evidence they'd have liked to have seen, however. They would normally do that in their work assisting the coroner, but the Secret Service took charge of the President's remains and moved his body aboard Air Force One ASAFP.

That's why we don't know all the facts. When we pick and choose the facts, anybody can be the turd Posner. When taken in their entirety, the facts we DO have spell conspiracy.

EDIT: made clear the last fucking sentence.

[Ladyhawk]

165. Sorry, I don't make a habit of shooting bullets into human flesh. :)

eom

[Jen72]

117. I saw that fooage last night and agree.

The BBC did a documentry that proved that Oswald actted alone, but the bullet the blow his face of looked to have hit him from the side of front, not the back.
I am not in anyway convince by what I was saw last night. I do not believe that LHO was a lone nut that was taken down by another nut and they were all just attention seeking.
I wonder whether the people that were interviewed also believe that
Whistleass was fairly elected, Iraq was not about oil and the Poppy Bush is a nice guy.

[jmcgowanjm]

8. Poison plants from poison seeds-Amy Goodman

 There is a critical mass here, somewhere.
One cannot go against the will of the
people(75% feel more than one killer).
Reality always wins.


Dick Meyer, the Editorial Director of CBSNews.com
what he calls
'the predator class':

"I believe there is now a professional,
well-trained elite, supported by large
institutions, that is adept and willing to
use corrupt practices to accumulate wealth.
xymphora


http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_dauben.html

[pretzel4gore]

11. what's staggering is the seamlessness of the liars' lie..

they're like buncha goniffs bailing bailing bailing a leaky boat....just tossing all the factual record out bucket after bucketful! Meyers say it well - "predator class" indeed- and there must be plenty of Don Meyers in the news orgs, but consider the relentless onslaught of mediawhores and their lies, Jennings just the latest/in the forefront.....
Al Gore dropped out of the '04 race cuz he feared the people would revisit the fraud of '00, and possibly trigger revolution or something.....
please send a condom (or a query as to where Peter wants it sent) to ABC....he needs plenty of them it looks like.

[Octafish]

12. A few good Journalists remain... This guy at CBS, for one...

He describes what we're talking about to a "T."

The Predator Class

CBSNews.com's Dick Meyer. Nov. 19, 2003

The stock market boom of the 1990s, the proliferation of 401(k) plans and the mass use of mutual funds so greatly increased the number of Americans who own equities that a new demographic term was born: the investor class.

The emerging accounts of thievery in the world of mutual funds confirm, for me at least, something I have suspected since the go-go 1980s -- the existence of an economic predator class.

I believe there is now a professional, well-trained elite, supported by large institutions, that is adept and willing to use corrupt practices to accumulate wealth. Despite assurances from game-theorists and anthropologists that the criminal cadre in the species remains a constant percentage over time, I believe today's mainstream, sanitized, and institutionally sanctioned financial crime rackets are being run by a new breed of crook. There have always been scandals and crooks in the history of American money, but our predator class is a distinct creation of the late 20th century.

I believe there is no way the counter-class made up of regulators, watchdogs and do-gooders and hack columnists can match wits with the predator class. Today's piles of money are so huge, great fortunes can be amassed by swiping the tiniest of slices in the wiliest of ways long before picked pockets are discovered.

CONTINUED...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/19/opinion/meyer/main584424.shtml

[jsw_81]

15. Reality

One cannot go against the will of the
people(75% feel more than one killer).
Reality always wins.

Yes, reality does always win. But reality is NOT determined by poll or popular vote. Science doesn't work that way. Even if 99 percent of the people believe a lie (like one of the nutty JFK conspiracy theories, or the earth being flat, or creationism, or "72 virgins" in paradise) it is STILL a lie. Period.

[TruthIsAll]

17. JSW, Reality is whether or not you are willing to take the test..

I want to see your answers. It will only take 10 minutes.

TRUE or FALSE?

And please be ready to explain why.

THAT is REALITY.

[TruthIsAll]

32. Hey JSW..I'm still waiting. Your 10 minutes are up. Skipping the Test?

True or false.

Let's go.

I dare you.

[jsw_81]

35. Your quiz questions

Virtually all of them are absolutely absurd and heavily slanted toward the pro-conspiracy side. Do you really expect me to waste my time refuting all thirty or them?!? Even if I did you'd probably just accuse me of being a part of the conspiracy. :eyes:

[TruthIsAll]

40. Absurd? You have been EXPOSED..Too scared to take the test?

Afraid you will pass?

[shance]

37. JSW, how does it benefit you to believe this?

Seriously. Please ask yourself.

Its very hard for all of us to accept that our government and other forces are potentially capable of such evil and yet the evidence in this case is pretty insurmountable, atleast to the fact that there was more than one individual involved in Kennedys murder.

The truth or the facts always just ARE. No matter how much we avoid or fight the truth, its always there to meet me either rather gently, or in a head on. If I deny it, I always wind up having to face it.

I dont know the real truth about JFK and I would imagine a very few, if any now do know what really happened, but I dont believe that Ozwald could have accomplished a pretty insurmountable task like many have insisted on repeating. Its a stretch at the very very least to believe it, but more importantly how does it benefit any of us not to look at the other facts known to be true at the time?

If I deny the truth and/or possibilities of any situation, how does it help me or anyone to live with an illusion? For a while it might be great and certainly it makes life much simpler at times, but life isnt always simple. Its actually pretty complex the more you look at it.

One thing I believe to be simple however: the truth always comes back to us - may take a while, but it does, and when it does, if it has been ignored and neglected, the pain is usually quite worse for those who avoided it in the first place.

Its like a tooth ache. If I deny the tooth ache, and it only comes around every once in a while, then if I let it go, at some point it will become a root canal, and if you have ever had the pain of a root canal you know it aint pretty. So what does this have to do with JFK??

Well, if our media and government promote what looks to be a lie about his assasination, this promotes dishonesty, which promotes more lies, wrongdoings and dishonesty, until it gets so bad that there is no turning back. If people believe stories that are untrue, then the people telling the stories will continue to get away with more lies and stories.

If we allow truth to be squashed so others can live in an illusion, then we are a disaster waiting to happen again and again, and again, until we wake up and face the reality. The sooner we face it, the less pain we have to endure. That is nature of our world.

Truth is the only way for us as humans to succeed and proceed in a forward motion. A friend of mine once told me an analogy using Santa Claus, that believing in Santa Claus was great, or so we all thought, but in a way, he brought up a good point that in a way, it sets children up to seek out fantasies and illusions rather than to look for and appreciate reality and beauty in the world, not to mention expecting a trunk load of gifts every December 25th. ***

In my opinion, the only way for this country to become the great country our forefathers worked so hard to instill, is to face some very uncomfortable realities. This assassination being one of them. Its not about being Republican or Democrat, its about realizing how the abuse of power destroys all of us in the long run. Including those that inflict the abuse.

When people become corrupt with power, their ordinary good nature has been overrun with a mindset that seeks to destroy all that stands in their way of domination and as a result destroys much of what is possible and is good in the world. It is a virus of destruction.

Any of us are capable (some moreso than others) of becoming corrupt, and it is ALL OF OUR responsibility to keep others, most importantly ourselves, accountable. When people are held unaccountable through money or influence, they can begin to live in a deluded, detached world where they believe they can do whatever they want without consequences.

However, as with Hitler, when he saw the reality of what was coming back to get him, he saw what he believed about himself all along, that he was a failure, a belief that had driven him from his youth. That was the main reason for his quest for power - along with a pretty screwed up brain chemistry. He was inadequate, and he had an inability to tolerate his inadequacy and unleashed it outward in blame towards others.

That is always the reason for an over-zealous quest for power - a feeling of total inadequacy and an inability for toleration of differences of any kind, that drives someone to find resolution through complete domination over others. Its infantile really, and it actually does stem from way back yonder in the child years. When someone has a rational perspective and not an infantile one like Hitlers, they dont seek to dominate, but they do seek to create a better world, by observing, learning from others and co-existing and enjoying and enhancing life, not destroy it.

Okay this is a long explanation. My point is, I believe it does little good to deny what is ever potentially true in life and in the world. Doesnt make it easy in the short run, but is sure makes it much smoother sailing in the long run. Even for those who are going haywire with power. Most are them are very gifted and if they could redirect their focus and energy in a more effective in life affirming way (and learn to tolerate more and work Democratically instead of autocratically*), they could not only achieve more, they could become great leaders. Thats whats such a twist. Its ultimately how we channel our focus and energy. And it comes down to choices.

It is in those choices that on a small scale in life keep us from growing, on a much larger scale can ultimately destroy a nation.

[jsw_81]

44. Nice essay

JSW, how does it benefit you to believe this?

Because it's true. The Warren Report contained errors here and there (like most 26 volume reports would), but the evidence against Oswald is truly overwhelming. The medical evidence, Zapruder film, ballistics, witnesses all point toward one man and one man only. This conspiracy crap only makes us look like kooks. You and the others may wish to go along with the conspiracy nuts because it's currently the "cool" thing to do among liberals, but somebody has to stand up for the truth even if it isn't popular.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jsw_81]

53. Yes, this is a liberal forum

I'm just saying that we as liberals shouldn't just accept certain things (like a JFK assassination conspiracy) just because it's the popular thing to believe at this point in time.

And don't you dare tell me to get out of here just because I don't support your idiotic conspiracy crap.

[shance]

59. JSW if its so popular to believe this "conspiracy"?

Why does Peter Jennings get his own show to try to disprove all the realities and questions surrounding the murder?

[shance]

58. Gosh, if only it were "cool" to be liberal!***

Not too cool to John Ashcroft and the others trying to assault our freedoms and suppress our attempt to save this nation from further chaos.

No JSW, Im just looking for the truth.

I think that is the only way we will salvage our country. If lies continue to be supported and believed, then more murderous acts will take place, and they will continue to be covered up, until the truth cannot be covered up any longer.

The wildest thing is that all of this can actually be prevented.

[knight_of_the_star]

80. Ummmm

How would you explain then how the Secret Service didn't do its job properly on that day? Several of them were out getting drunk the night before until 5:00 am. That and experts in that field as well as covert ops have testified based on the tapes and witness testimony that the Secret Service didn't do its job properly simply because it did not properly secure the area, failed to mobilize nearby military units to reinforce security, and obviously was not doing what they should have been the night before (like sleeping.)

[Andyjunction]

38. the American people

75% of Americans also think Saddam was responsible for 9-11. Will they be teaching that in school 50 years from now?

[DiverDave]

10. Bullet stops

in midair, turns, then continues...Yeah RIGHT.
Oh, and film at 11 to explain physics. :eyes:

[jsw_81]

14. If you had actually seen the ABC presentation...

You would know that there was nothing "magic" about the bullet that struck Kennedy and Connally. Furthermore, Kennedy's head actually moves forward about two inches after the fatal shot (totally consistant with a shot from the rear) and only goes "back and to the left" when the spray of blood and brains exploded forward out of the exit wound.

[Selwynn]

19. PLEASE CITE SOURCES.

how truthful is it really?

Is it true that the government told extra security to stand down in Dallas the day of the parade?

Is it true the parade route was altered - and what was the reason given? If there is some justifiable reason then I'm throwing that out as evidence.

Is it true that international papers already had headlines with oswalds picture and a full bio on him just hours after the shooting (making one thing it was a prepared story and an Op)?

Where is this so-called "incontrovertable" evidence that autopsy photos were touched up? I've never seen it, and would like to.

The bottom line is - please proved your source for every single statement you've listed. I want to believe, but I'm not willing to do so without knowing something about your sources.

[buycitgo]

21. hope you've asked the same questions of Posner, etal.....

who've been shown to have lied about lots of stuff

and what about the ludicrous "computer generated" scenario?

how is that anymore accurate than Powell's mobile biological weapons cartoons?

that's all that junk was.....a digital cartoon

and that's all that show was.....a historical cartoon

[Selwynn]

24. I'm just asking for factual information - that's all.

I believe Oswald killed kennedy, but I don't believe the warren commision. However, I'd really like to have factual information - and when it comes to JFK separating fact from rumor, myth or misinformation is hard.

[TruthIsAll]

23. A response...

You ask:
how truthful is it really?

Is it true that the government told extra security to stand down in Dallas the day of the parade?

Stand Down in Dallas
... told their assistance was not needed in Dallas during the ... member of the crack 112th Military Intelligence Group ... when they were told to "Stand Down" rather than ...
www.prouty.org/comment9.html - 3k - Cached - Similar pages


Is it true the parade route was altered - and what was the reason given? If there is some justifiable reason then I'm throwing that out as evidence.

Agents Go On the Record
... the plans for Dallas were altered by Secret ... The route of the presidential parade violated Secret ... interviews with this correspondent, the route was strongly ...
www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html - 23k - Cached - Similar pages


Is it true that international papers already had headlines with oswalds picture and a full bio on him just hours after the shooting (making one thing it was a prepared story and an Op)?

... activism,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,misc.legal ... former CIA liaison officer L. Fletcher |Prouty. ... Oswald was published in New Zealand newspapers immediately ...
www.ufo.net/ufodocs/text.documents/j/jfk_1.txt - 58k - Cached - Similar pages


Where is this so-called "incontrovertable" evidence that autopsy photos were touched up? I've never seen it, and would like to.

How Five Investigations into JFK's Medical/Autopsy Evidence Got ...
... If the images are valid proof little brain ... FBI fired the experienced Navy autopsy photographer from ... American Medical Association interview, JFK’s pathologist ...
www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_5.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages


I will only provide these Google links for now. You can, if you are so inclined, read any number of books on the assassination or Google further to get at the facts mentioned here.

[Selwynn]

25. Thank you!

[jsw_81]

28. And for a refutation of that nonsense

Go here

[Selwynn]

68. That wasn't exactly much more convincing.

Arguments for both sides seem awfully lacking to me.

[Andyjunction]

41. parade route

This is an obvious one... if the parade route was altered then why were all the people lining Elm street waiting for the president to pass? What was Zapruder doing filming a road that Kennedy wasn't going to be driving down?

[onebigbadwulf]

26. Simple refutation

Look at the Zapruder film

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/abrahamzapruderfilm.htm


Kennedy's head goes back and to the left with blood and brain matter spraying in the opposite direction - front and to the right


This means, whether you think splatter comes from the entrance wound or exit wound...

that the bullet came from the BACK LEFT or FRONT RIGHT.


The depository was BACK RIGHT and thus that bullet could not have been from it period.

[jsw_81]

27. Wrong

The blood/brains went all over the Connallys and even the secret service agents seated up front -- totally consistant with a shot from the back right. And like I mentioned in another post, Kennedy's head actually moves forward about two inches after being struck by the fatal shot. Again, this is totally consistant with a shot from the Book Depository.

[onebigbadwulf]

29. Did you even look at it?

Blood sprays everywhere. The blood statement shows nothing.

The rightforward-backleft motion is not consistent with a backright shot at all.

[yowzayowzayowza]

65. Really.... I'd love to ...

see an analysis of the blood splatter and bullet fragment damage at the crime scene, but the freaken crime scene, the limo, was SCRUBBED within 48 hours of the murder. Absolutely unconscionable!!!!

[knight_of_the_star]

81. Blood spatter patterns are not totally reliable

Especially in the case of a head wound simply because there is more blood in the head than in any other part of the body, thus causing more blood to be there to splatter all over the place and make a big mess. That and if an explosive bullet was used, then the blood would have gone everywhere inside that part of the limo.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

171. Exit wound.

From one of the first doctors to see Kennedy. Before the "story" had been fully developed. The shot that made this wound was from the front. Cubans, Mafiosi, MIC? :shrug: ...but I know an exit wound when I see one. (Maybe Oswald was on the grassy knoll?)

[kcwayne]

95. If you have been to Dealey Plaza you would realize

that the road has about a 30 degree angle to the left (from the 6th floor window where Oswald is supposed to have made the shots from).

As such, the vehicle would move to a position where a shot could enter from the left back of the head.

[Sterling]

168. I have been there and you are way off base.

Oswald was behind the motercade and to the right at that angle. There is no way he could have put a shot through JFKs brain at that angle.

The opposite angle would be the only possible trajectory.

[DS1]

30. The shooting has been recreated

I forgot the name, but a gunsmith did it using an observation tower and a cart on a track.

[maveric]

48. From open scaffolding to a car in an open field.

Not from an enclosed area in a building, and through a zone with trees partially blocking his view.
After several tries, I might add. Oh, and the gun jammed 23% of the time.

[DS1]

31. The shooting has been recreated

I forgot the name, but a gunsmith did it using an observation tower and a cart on a track.

[Guaranteed]

34. ABC used the film frames to show that it was 3 shots in 8.3 seconds.

You lose a LOT of credibility when you don't get the amount of time right. Get your facts straight.

[TruthIsAll]

39. Wrong! The Warren Commission said 3 shots in 5.6 seconds

That is why they had to push the Magic Bullet Theory. They had to comply with the Zapruder film frames timeline. They said Oswald fired three shots. And they had to have ONE shot hit JFK AND Connally.

But at least 4 shots were fired:
1. JFK in the front of the neck
2. JFK in the back. No exit.
3. Connally in the wrist/rib.
4. JFK in the head. Right side above the ear.
5. And a fifth shot missed the motorcade.

That is why the Zapruder film was hidden from and not seen by the American people for 12 years.

[Andyjunction]

43. where did the bullets go?

There was also a wound to Connaly's left thigh, so you missed one.

If Kennedy was shot once in the back and once in the neck then that would be two bullets still inside his body since they did not have exit wounds. It's much more reasonable to believe that it was one bullet which passed through his neck. In fact, that's the only thing that makes sense.

[jsw_81]

45. The Zapruder film

If the Zapruder film proves a massive conspiracy, why did the "conspirators" allow it to be made public? If they had "agents" all over Dealey Plaza (like conspiracy theorists claim), why didn't they just take Zapruder's film and destroy it immediately?

[Junkdrawer]

49. The History Channel did a good piece on the film and its history...

Seems a newsman got to Zapruder first and took the film to the TV station labs. IT WAS THEN ANNOUNCED ON THE AIR THAT THE FILM EXISTED AND WAS UNDER DEVELOPMENT. Turns out that only a Kodak lab could do the development, so the film went to a Dallas Kodak lab. Time/Life bought the film, and then kept it quiet for 12(???) years until a "conspiracy nut" managed to get an unauthorized copy. Had the unauthorized copy not appeared, I'm sure the film would be secret to this day.

[jsw_81]

50. Wrong

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100lifezap.html

[Junkdrawer]

54. The History Channel program was "Image of an Assassination"...

The documentary was, I thought, scrupulous in avoiding taking sides on the interpretation of the film.

Here's a summary from the web site:

The film shows 3 shots fired in 8 second, the first shot deflected by a tree branch but causing Gov. John Connally to look over his right shoulder, the second shot hitting Kennedy in the neck and Connally's right side, and the third shot hitting Kennedy's head. Frame 313 shows brain matter spraying forward from the third shot. Abraham Zapruder sold the rights to his film to Life magazine for $50,000, including the original negative and 2 of the 3 prints Zapruder had made Nov. 22, 1963, at the Kodak Laboratory in Dallas. Time Inc. purchased the film rights for an additional $100,000 and published still frames of the film in the Nov. 29 issue. Life provided slides of some of the frames to the Warren Commission. Garrison subpoened the film to be shown in the 1969 trial of Clay Shaw and had copies made. After death of Abraham Aug. 30, 1970, an unauthorized copy of the film was shown for the first time on TV during the Good Night America show hosted by Geraldo Rivera in 1975. Time Inc. returned the film to the family April 9, 1975 for $1, with rights assigned to the family company LMH. The family donated the original film to the National Archives in 1978. LMH in 1997 decided to make a digital copy with restoration by McCrone Associates. At the National Archives, McCrone made 483 photographs using special 4x5 equipment. The restoration process was filmed by MPI.

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/filmnotes/zapruder.html

I did forget that Garrison subpoenaed the film in 1969. Other that that, and the fact that a few frames (significantly omitting the head shot!) were printed in the Warren Commission report and in Life magazine, I stand by what I posted.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. There may also have been two additional shots...

...one to match the circular dent in the upper windshield frame, above and to the right of the rear-view mirror, and one hit on Connally that was separate from the hit that plowed through his body and broke a rib on exit.

To me, the hat that Connally is holding is one of the best photogaphic arguments against the Single-Bullet Theory. Connally's hat can be seen quite clearly above the doorframe in the Zapruder film. Connally holds on to that hat well after his wrist would have been shattered by the so-called Magic Bullet.

[Nederland]

153. You believe the Warren Commission?

Funny how you only believe facts presented in the Warren Commission report when it suites you...

[aeon flux]

47. You only need to know one thing

The film shows Mrs. Kennedy picking up a large chunk of her husband's head off the rear hood of the car. The bullet could not have struck Kennedy from the rear as the government contends.

You gotta be a total nutcase to believe the Waren Report.

[jsw_81]

51. Jackie

Actually a small piece of the FRONT of Kennedy's skull was found on the street shortly after the shooting, totally consistant with a shot from the rear.

You gotta be a total nutcase to believe the Waren Report.

Yeah, nevermind the fact that virtually every single piece of evidence points to Oswald as the lone assassin, it was all a grand conspiracy involving everyone from the CIA to Castro to Nixon to the Dallas Police. Hell, even Oswald's brother (who believes his brother was the lone assassin) is in on it! :eyes:

[maveric]

55. "Every single piece of evidence points to Oswald"?

Are you not paying attention?
Perhaps 5% of what is out there points to Oswald acting alone. Everything else points to conspiracy.
Read a few books and watch "The Men Who Killed Kennedy".

[rjbcar27]

116. Oswald acted alone, no conspiracy, case closed.

Watched a fabulous documentary on BBC last night that totally refuted any notion of a consipiracy. It basically tore apart the Oliver Stone film JFK as a complete work of fiction.

Some bloke has spent 10 years making a totally 3D model of Dealy plaza from the zapruder tape and the evidence is totally overwhelming. There was no conspiracy. I know a lot of you desparately wish for one but the facts don't support this.

I used to think there was, but after watching this documentary I'm now totally convinced.

[Jen72]

118. I watched it too and it did not convince me.

I saw the clip of the bullet to JFK's head and I do not believe it was
shot from behind.
I do not believe that Jack Ruby shot Oswald because he loved the President, nor do I believe that that these two men were lone attention seeking nuts.
Oswald fired three accurate shoots and a moving target, in motorcade, when nobody since has been able to do it. No I do not believe it at all. Anymore than I believe the Dubya is a rightful, legally elected President. I am sure the right people in can prove he was.

[rjbcar27]

122. Fair enough, but I think you're wrong.

I thought the programme was utterly convincing.

From The Guardian:

It's rare for a TV show to live up to its own publicity, but last night it happened. BBC2's The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy (Sunday) promised to unravel once and for all the 40-year mystery surrounding the murder of JFK, using clever computer animation - and it did just that.
An animator called Dale Myers spent 10 years building a virtual model of Dealey Plaza in Dallas, mapping on to it a frame-by-frame reconstruction of Abraham Zapruder's home movie of the shooting. With this he could view the incident from every angle, which proved beyond reasonable doubt that all the shots fired at Kennedy's motorcade came from Lee Harvey Oswald on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

The good old grassy knoll theory, based on fanciful interpretation of a sound recording and introducing the tantalising possibility of a second shooter, was neatly discredited. The police microphone that supposedly caught the bang was in the wrong place at the time.

Mark Obenhaus's film wasn't just a painstaking re-examination of the evidence - it also analysed our apparent need to believe in a conspiracy. The idea that one delusional individual could do so much damage just doesn't satisfy the appetite for myth, and so from the moment when Jackie screamed "My God - they've killed him!" we've been hunting high and low for "them". President Johnson went to his grave believing that Fidel Castro was behind the hit. Others believed it was the Russians, the CIA, the Mob or any combination of the above.

Peddler-in-chief of conspiracy theories, the mythomaniac film maker Oliver Stone, did more than anyone to validate this rubbish - and now his JFK (given a Saturday-night screening on BBC3) is almost the standard text on the subject. Gratifyingly, The Kennedy Assassination did a fact-by-fact demolition job on Stone's cocktail of fiction and half-truth. There was no "magic bullet". Jack Ruby was not a hitman. Jim Garrison never made those rousing speeches delivered with such stomach-churning sincerity by Kevin Costner. Stone's admitted "dramatic licence" never looked more hollow and self-serving.

There are plenty of pale young men for whom the evaporation of the conspiracy theory will come as something like a bereavement. For the rest of us, though, it's much more interesting to consider Lee Harvey Oswald as the ultimate poster boy for American malaise, the thorn in the side of the world's largest democracy. Oswald's story, from lonely childhood right through to desperate, failed attempts to defect to Russia and Cuba, is truly worthy of study. And the intimate connection between the murders and the media - Ruby shot Oswald on live TV - was without doubt the turning point of 20th-century broadcasting.

[Jen72]

139. Nice sterotyping.....

I am sure many of those that like me do not believe that Oswald actted alone, dislike the "pale young men," discription.
I am female, am not obssessed by the theories. I was taught in High School in the 80's that Lee Harvey Oswald was unlikely to be lone shooter and that the their were many,many holes in the Warren Commission findings. I have only scene JFK once and liked that film,
I have read some stuff may bookshelf isn't loaded with conspircy books.
I watched the documentry and was left with more questions. The minute I saw the clip of Kennedy's face blown off, I could see he was not shot from behind. (I have not watched it over and over again, but enough to see his brains explode, and for my heart to feel for Jackie every single time.)
I do not believe that it is the story of two attention seekers Oswald and Ruby. I have trouble with the idea that Ruby went out and then on a whim decided to shoot Oswald, because he felt for Jackie and the children. Incidently Ruby died under suspisious circumstances too.

I also wondered how many of those people that tell the story of the Lone Gunman, also believe that Bush Jr is a legitimate President, Iraq
and Afghanistan isn't about oil, deny the vast right wing conspircy and other things that "conspricy theorist talk about."

If the BBC were so confident of the Lee Oswald story, why was JFK only shown on BBC 3, why not show it on BBC 2, so that the too theories could be compared.

[MadHound]

126. Gee, a 3D model and everything

Look, you get from a model, be it clay or electronic, what you put into it. What kind of bias did this person have going in? Did they use anything else besides the Zapruder film(important point, since the Zapruder film had NO views of the grassy knoll, whilst other shots did)? What was their method of transfering the Zapruder film into 3D?

Just because you have a model doesn't mean you have definitive prove. In fact third party, after the fact extrapolations like your BBC piece, and the ABC piece are more often wrong than right. It is best to stick with the first hand, at the moment sources.

[rjbcar27]

127. Yes a 3D cg model of perfect proportions.

It allowed the user to see the the event take place from any angle and any position within Dealy plaza.

I would advise you to actually see the piece before you denigrate it.

[MadHound]

132. I'm not denigrating it's proportions, and I have no real desire to see it

What I am saying is how can a model be "perfect" if it is only taken from the POV of the Zapruder film? It would be pure speculation on the programmer's part about what was going on on the grassy knoll, since the grassy knoll wasn't in the Zapruder film.

Likewise, it is pure speculation what is going on in the book depository, since that isn't in the Zapruder film either.

To attempt to extrapolate an entire scene from a very limited film shot is the height of chutzpah. You cannot place actions, people or events accurately at all, since they were not in the Zapruder film. You are depending upon the programmer's views and biases, since the programmer is the one setting the stage.

Besides, to have true 3D intregrity you would have to have two pieces of film, yet here is this piece using only one.

No thank you, I think I will stick with original sources. As such they do not have to depend on a programmer's whim.

Besides, does your model explain away such interesting anomolies as the pre-emptive New Zealand newspaper story, the Army troops that we're told to stand-down beforehand(contrary to SOP), the Secret Service agents who were out getting drunk the night before(again, contrary to SOP), why, if Oswald was the lone gunman, didn't he take the shot when the motorcade was creeping down Houston, since it would be coming towards him, and was a much easier shot for a lone gunman, why the Presidential limo was stuck out in front of the motorcade like a sitting duck(once again, contrary to SOP).

There are lots of things that even the best model can't explain away, and one that is taken from a single POV is defacto a biased and extrapolated model. I would suggest you expand your knowledge base rather than rely on this source. It is flawed and by it's very nature biased. Not a good piece to base an opinion on.

[rjbcar27]

133. Oh dear...

You say: "I would suggest you expand your knowledge base rather than rely on this source. It is flawed and by it's very nature biased. Not a good piece to base an opinion on. "

And you haven't even seen the programme!

Not all of it was based in the 3D modelling. I haven't got the technical knowhow to explain how it was done but it took 10 years of research to do it. It wasn't just done from the zapruder film and I'm sorry if that's how I made it seem. The programme detailed the life of LHO and Jack Ruby, it was incredibly comprehensive and very compelling.

I recommend you watch it, but if you've made up your mind that's it's a conspiracy then no amount of evidence will sway you.

[MadHound]

135. I see no point in wasting my time with a piece. . .

That I know is inherrently biased. As always, with matters like this it is better to go with original sources. Now you are saying that it wasn't just done with the Zapruder film. What other film was used? Does it use the Poloroid picture, shot at the very instant of Kennedy's kill shot, that depicts a muzzle blast and the silouette of a rifleman behind the fence on the grassy knoll? Does it depict the front to back, through and through bullet hole in the front windshield of the Presidential limo? Does it expain why dozens and dozens of witnesses, both in front of the grassy knoll and behind the fence in the rail yard see a bright muzzle flash, see the smoke, and heard the gunfire coming from the fence on the grassy knoll? In fact these people were so convinced that many of them ran up the knoll hoping to capture the perp, only to be turned back by people claiming to be Secret Service and police.

It may have taken ten years to make, but from the sounds of it, it is a piece of revisionist crap. If I can catch it over here, I'll watch it, just to be able to debunk it. But my suggestion to you is to not base your opinions on such revisionist history, that's how events get whitewashed away. Check out a multitude of sources, trust your own senses, come to your own conclusions. Otherwise you're just a sheep, bleating along with the herd.

I have brought several matters that apparently weren't covered by this documentary, since you haven't answered them. Think about it, why weren't these questions answered by the documentary? Why weren't they even addressed? Could it be because they would cause the show's neat and tidy little conclusion to fall apart. There are lots of things in this world that can't be answered by a 3D model.

[rjbcar27]

137. Forget it.

I'm wasting my time as you've obviously made up your mind.

You cannot say that certain questions weren't answered by this documentary when you haven't even seen it.

Read the Guardians review of the programme that I posted in a message further up.

[MadHound]

151. A TV show, and a review of the show

Really not very solid sources to base an entire viewpoint on. And you still haven't answered my question. Does the show explain all of the anomolies that I pointed out(and a great many I didn't)? Why are you silent on this matter? According to you the show was quite convincing, so it should have been able to explain these, or at least mention them. Why don't you answer the question?

Don't believe everything you see on TV. It is a documented propoganda source, and is thus suspect. Media in general today has been shown to have a very narrow, partisan outlook. Do your own research, come to your own conclusions. You seem like a bright person, don't let the boob tube do your thinking.

[Jen72]

142. I can answer this, the models showed the motorcade...

and the view from the window at the book store. It showed how the shooting, the timing and the pin point accuracy were possible for LHO.
It showed exactly were JKF was shoot and how it was possible for that bullet to have gone through JFK's neck, into Conelly. (They didn't show how it managed to go through his wrist though.)
It did look plausible until Zapruder's film of the shot to the head.
And they started milking the man whose life have failed story for both LHO and Ruby.
My thoughts were of revisionist history too, it just annoyed me.

[Blue_Chill]

143. The poloroid picture seems like fantasy to me

Here are the "outlines" of the grassy knoll shooters. (I just don't see it)


Now they add color to "help" you see what they see....



If you ask me one could "outline" a green space alien and prove it by "adding color" like these people did.

[MadHound]

150. Wrong part of the picture

If you go further to the right of the picture, down to the corner of the fenceline, you will find the outline and muzzle flash in question. Several very thourogh reviews have been done by photograpic experts(done in blind tests, so that bias was minimized), including Poloroid employees, and all came up with the outline of a man, with a rifle, that is emitting a muzzle flash(and presumably a bullet).

[Minstrel Boy]

158. Lee Bowers in the railway tower saw a man in unform

behind the fence in about the location of "badgeman," long before the image was identified from the Moorman polaroid.



Here's an interesting piece on "badgeman": http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/morningstar5.htm

Was it Officer Tippit?

[Jen72]

140. I did see the programme and I agree with what you are

saying.

[MadHound]

145. Thanks Jen

In all fairness I should see this show, just to know exactly what I'm speaking to, but these programs are nothing but window dressing designed to keep the populace docile, complacent, and unquestioning.

What is interesting to note is that there are currently people in power who are still benefitting from Kennedy's unfortunate demise. It would not go well for them if the entire truth of that day became known. Hence, that secret must be protected at all costs, by any means. And yet I feel it is the one secret that must be exposed if our nation is ever to be whole and healthy again. In a sense all matters since have flown from that one poisoned moment, and thus have been poisoned unto themselves.

We need to rid ourselves of that poison. and the only cure is the truth.

[Jen72]

141. error

n/t

[JHB]

157. The 3D CG model has a website:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/content.htm

[Emboldened Chimp]

154. Newflash: Stone's film IS fiction

it's a dramatic movie, not a documentary. Why don't people get this?

[aeon flux]

56. Only a SMALL piece?

I could understand little pieces flying in every direction, but how could the biggest piece of all land on the rear hood of the car if the bullet indeed struck from behind? Makes no sense whatsover.

The only thing that makes sense is shots fired from the front of the vehicle.

[jsw_81]

62. You're right, it doesn't

That's because it didn't happen that way. The largest pieces of skull went forward with one piece clearly shooting into the air and going forward. I know it sounds incredible (not to mention gruesome), but it's all on the Zapruder film when you play it in slow motion.

The only thing that makes sense is shots fired from the front of the vehicle.

Unfortunately, there's no evidence for that. None at all.

[TruthIsAll]

67. No evidence of shots fired from the front?

1. Eyewitnesss ran to the grassy knoll.
2. The first shot hit JFK in the neck. See him grab his neck in the Zapruder film. The doctors intially called it an entrance wound. So did the NY Times and NY Daily News.
3. JFK fell back violently when he was hit in the head. To the left. Watch the film. The right side of his head is obviously the point of entry.
4. Autopsy shetches showed the back of JFK's head blown outward - an exit wound.

Most of all the Magic Bullet theory is a joke. It has been disproven time and time again. What's the use? You guys refuse to let science, facts and common sense get in the way.

The coverup continues. Deny the obvious, if you must. The vast majority of Americans (at least 75%) are not fooled. Why should we beat our heads against the wall to convince you?

But don't EVER call us Conspiracy Nuts. And go back to your woodwork.

[shance]

61. I had never considered that. Great point.

How true.

[Octafish]

66. The motorcycle cop was sprayed by a cloud of blood and brain tissue...

... and he was riding BEHIND the President's limousine.

Odd thing that. A cloud of human flesh blown backward by a bullet fired from behind. Not very likely from a probability perspective.

What's odder: The motorcycle police officers all were flanking the Secret Service car, which was jammed with Secret Service men whose jobs they had were to protect the President.

Where where they when they were needed? Out of harm's where is where.

[Andyjunction]

69. Worth a thousand words

[TruthIsAll]

70. Obviously a frontal hit at the instant of impact. Where would you expect

someone shot to first spout blood? At the point where the bullet entered. That is exactly what you are seeing here. The back of the head is still intact at the split second of entry. This was a fragmented bullet which exploded in the head.

[jsw_81]

71. Wrong again

Entry wounds are tiny and exit wounds are large. That's what we're seeing in the Zapruder film when the front of Kennedy's head explodes, indicating a shot from the rear. The back of his head was totally intact except for the small entrance wound. It wasn't "blasted out" or "missing" like you people always claim. This is clear in the Nix film. Tell me, was the Nix film doctored too? Oh, now I see that you're claiming that it was an exploding bullet. How convenient. :eyes:

[TruthIsAll]

73. Here is a Doctor's initial sketch of your "entry" wound

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong_5.htm

HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFK’S MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
Gary L. Aguilar, MD and Kathy Cunningham
May 2003


While a book-length discussion of the HSCA’s handling of the JFK medical/autopsy evidence could easily be written, the focus will be narrowed here to highlight factors that, in the authors’ opinions, explain how it was that all of the House Committee’s forensic experts, save Cyril Wecht, MD, JD, came to conclude that the evidence was consistent with Oswald’s guilt.

snip

Given its reception by so many respected authorities, Wecht’s tirade may be seen as little more than pique on the part of someone who had, prior to his stint on the HSCA, published at least four articles critical of the Warren Commission, had strongly lobbied his fellow panelists, and yet had failed to persuade a single colleague.<270> But in view of what has fallen out in declassified documents about both the HSCA and its FPP, Wecht’s fury no longer seems so exaggerated and unprofessional.

As we will see, the FPP worked without highly pertinent material that was available but suppressed. It also, as Wecht has suggested, exhibited little curiosity about the findings of other, related HSCA specialty panels. So it remains an open question whether the upshot might have been different had the forensic panel been given all the relevant autopsy information, and if the panelists had been just a little less incurious. But, as Wecht had presciently bewailed, the doctors had indeed labored under an HSCA staff-imposed handicap. It turns out that it was significantly greater than even Wecht had imagined. Perhaps the most important example of this deserves some detailed attention.

The Dallas Doctors vs. JFK’s Autopsy Photographs
As previously mentioned, multiple independent and contemporaneous accounts from credible witnesses, especially the treating Dallas doctors, said JFK’s fatal injury was a gaping right-rearward skull wound. The HSCA’s forensic experts took special note of Dallas accounts. Then, as now, Parkland Hospital was a highly regarded trauma center, its physicians thoroughly trained and experienced trauma experts.

Though perhaps it should have, it apparently never occurred to the Warren Commission that both the Parkland witnesses and JFK’s pathologists had described JFK’s rearward skull wounds in much the same way, but in a manner that was difficult to reconcile with an assassin firing from above and behind. Only after the autopsists had examined the photographs, and after the Clark Panel had noted an apparent, huge discrepancy between the photographs and the autopsy report, did a crack begin to appear in the medical case for Oswald’s sole guilt. The Clark Panel simply closed that crack by dismissing the rearward location of the skull injuries on the grounds that the autopsy doctors, who were teaching professors, had made a mistake. They were insensitive to the peculiarity that if it was indeed an error, it was a huge one that had also been made in Dallas by a team of seasoned trauma experts that included a professor of brain surgery. It was the kind of mistake for which a guilty first year resident physician-pathologist, to say nothing of professors, would have been seriously faulted.



Drawing of rear head wound made under the direction of Dr. McClelland of Parkland Hospital.
(see ARRB MD #264)

For their parts, the Parkland witnesses virtually unanimously described JFK’s skull injuries in a way that echoed the description of the senior treating physician, Neurosurgery professor Kemp Clark, MD. On the day of the murder, after examining JFK’s head wound, Dr. Clark wrote that, “There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput extending into the parietal region,” he wrote, “Much of the skull appeared gone at the brief examination....”<271> (Emphasis added.) Clark’s claim of a rearward skull defect was also repeated by Parkland witnesses Drs. Marion Thomas Jenkins, Malcolm Perry, Robert McClelland, Charles Carrico, Ronald Coy Jones, Gene Aiken, Paul Peters, Charles Rufus Baxter, Robert Grossman, Richard Brooks Dulaney, Fouad Bashour, and others.<272> (See Table 1) Intriguingly, Dr. Clark’s account is a reasonable match to the autopsy report’s description of a ‘parietal-temporal-occipital’ skull defect. It does

[William Seger]

76. Still waiting for you to explain this:

Here's the forward head-snap that you haven't yet explained. Seems to be that Newton is vindicated:

[TruthIsAll]

83. Watch Zapruder. Believe your eyes. Back. To the Left. Back. To the Left.

Come on. There is a violent head move backwards in the film.

You guys are too much.

[William Seger]

86. I DO believe my eyes!

That's why I posted the image... again!

And this time, I'm not going to let you duck out without explaining it: At the very instant of the head shot, Kennedy's head snaps forward at least two inches (and probably more in the 1/18th second between frame 313 and 314), which is prefectly consistent with most of the spray going forward; both of which are perfectly consistent with the autopsy finding an entrance wound at the rear part of the skull and an exit wound towards the front (which the four principle ER doctors from Parkland agreed with); all of which is perfectly consistent with the "neutron activation analysis" that matched fragments found in Kennedy's skull with fragments found in the front of the limo.

Now, no dodging this time: explain all that, or expect to continue to be called a "conspiracy nut."

[TruthIsAll]

88. Explain what? Look at the video. It's obvious. Back. To the left.

A 2 inch head movement? Who the hell are you kidding?

Once again. I defy you to watch the Zapruder film and say the movement was frontal.

Back. To the left. Back. To the left. Back. To the left.

You are in Deep, Deep, Denial..

Newton's First Law of Motion ignored.

Do you know that Zapruder frames were originally switched to make it appear that the shot came for the back, moving the head forward?

But when found out, this was then declared to have been an error.
Sure.

Read about it. Geez. You are learning a lot of new stuff today.
http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr998-zfilm.html

[William Seger]

91. In other words....

... the "conspiracy nut case" is not based on facts and reasoning, so there's nothing to explain? Thank you.

But no sir, I'm not the one in denial. YOU are, and I'm not letting you off the hook that easily this time. Yes, after that forward snap, which is quite clear in the images I posted, he fell back and to the left, in a much slower action. As I'm quite sure you already know, there are at least three explanation for that: the "jet effect" of his head exploding forward and to the right (Newton's Second Law since you're also a physics nut); a neuromuscular reflex; and/or a simple "compression/recoil" from the forward snap that I've shown you. Take your pick; any one or all three together. If you look at frame 312, you can see that Kennedy's head is aleady almost on his chest, so two inches or so is about as far forward as it can go before chin bounces off the chest.

Yes, that two inches is definitely a "big deal" if you "conspiracy nuts" can't explain it, Mr. TruthIsAll. Your "back and to the left" has been explained; now it's your turn. You say if he was hit from behind, his head should have gone forward -- and there it is, right there in the image I posted, his head snaps forward, very violently. I'm challenging you to explain that, if he was shot from the front. Then, you have to explain why the head appears to be exploding forward rather than backward. Then, you have to explain why bullet fragments in his head match fragments found in the front of the car. Then, you have to explain why the same NAA analysis showed that the bullet was fired from Oswald's gun found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. While you're at it maybe you can explain why later Zapruder frames don't show that back-of-the-head wound that the "conspiracy nuts" keep yammering about.

I'm still waiting....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

92. Okay, I'll take you up on your challenge...

Please read this very technical article and then tell me what you think of the so-called "jet-effect" theory:

A critical look at Luis Alvarez’s jet effect explanation for the head movement of John Kennedy when he was assassinated on November 22, 1963
by Tony Szamboti, mechanical engineer
<http://www.geocities.com/whiskey99a/jeteffectrebut.html>

Excerpts:

"It is interesting to note, that Dr. Alvarez was involved with two Warren Commission members, Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy, in the production of the 1967 four hour long CBS pro Warren Commission documentary entitled 'The Warren Report'. It was here that he says he did a good bit of work (all of it validating the Warren Commission’s conclusions), concerning the number and timing of the gun shots, and the speed at which Abraham Zapruder’s camera was running while he took his famous film of the assassination. By his own admission Dr. Alvarez did this work by watching and observing the film itself. To state that he had not noticed the President’s head movement, prior to the graduate student’s pestering him about it a couple of years later in 1968 and 1969, seems odd. It is also interesting to note, and it is public knowledge, that Life Magazine and the FBI both initially published stills from the Zapruder film in reverse order, making it appear that the head moved forward rather than rearward. Both said it was a mistake when told of the improper sequencing. It is also public knowledge today that the original and all copies of the Zapruder film were purchased from Zapruder by Life Magazine on the weekend of the assassination and locked in their vault. The film was not shown as a moving film to anyone other than a few public officials. That was until the film was subpoenaed by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison for the February 1969 JFK assassination conspiracy trial in that city. Garrison needed to go to the U.S. Supreme Court to force Life to honor the subpoena and gain access to the film. It may be just coincidental that Luis Alvarez also came up with his 'jet effect' theory in February of 1969, although it was not published at that time."

...snip...

"My purpose in writing this critique was to educate those less likely to understand what the alleged 'jet effect', as proposed by Dr. Alvarez, was really saying and how it does not apply to the assassination of John Kennedy. While it may be possible in a melon and one can intuitively sense that it doesn’t apply to the assassination, it may be hard to understand and argue against without a scientific background. The fact that such a misleading explanation was put forth, in defense of the Warren Commission’s findings, should say volumes to anyone listening about that commission and its report. I did not write this critique to judge Dr. Alvarez as he is now deceased and by all accounts had many laudable achievements in a distinguished career. However, I do believe he was wrong here and that the 'jet effect' should have never been proposed as an explanation for the President’s head motion. When explanations, as misleading as the 'jet effect', have been put upon us by someone working for the commission officials responsible for the official investigation, I do not believe we have been told the truth by those officials."

Now, I want you to answer the following two questions:

Please tell me the names of the four doctors at Parkland that you claim found an entrance wound at the rear part of the skull and an exit wound towards the front. Then tell me where I might find that sworn testimony.

[William Seger]

97. No you didn't; you DUCKED the challenge

I challenged the "conspiracy nuts" to explain that forward head snap -- and several other facts -- if Kennedy was shot from the front. Instead, you're just blowing smoke about someone who doesn't believe the "jet effect" theory. Sorry, but that page isn't available now due to access limits on that free host, but anyway, in the excerpts you posted, that guy is just blowing smoke about the person who proposed the "jet effect" theory. Does the credibility of the theory depend on who proposed it? Does that article have anything to say about the two other possible explanations?

So, do you, or do you not have an explanation for that forward snap? How about the primarily forward direction of the bloody cloud? How about the matching bullet fragments found in the front of the limo? How about the lack of a back-of-the-head wound later in the Zapruder film?

None of the doctors at Parkland conducted any kind of forensic examination to determine anything about the direction of either shot. You're misrepresenting what I said. All of the primary doctors who treated Kennedy at Parkland -- Baxter, Clark, Carrico, McClelland, Perry, and several more -- were asked in their WC testimony if they generally agreed with the conclusions of the autopsy, and they all said yes. Specifically, none support the "back-of-head-wound" that the "conspiracy nuts" keep yammering about.

http://www.geocities.com/jfkinfo3/

[TruthIsAll]

100. Check McLelland's original sketch of the head wound..

It clearly showed an EXIT wound in the back of the head. I believe that the FIRST, immediate statements are the correct ones.

Check their ORIGINAL notes. You will see that they changed their stories later on. Have you heard of Cyril Wecht? He is one of the world's premier forensic pathologists who refutes the doctor's "updated" recollections (check out the testimony at the Clay Shaw trial):

You fail to recognize that the best evidence was covered up:
Here are two examples (there are many others):

1)the autopsy was botched ( the small throat entrance wound was widened for a tracheotomy to attempt to save JFK.

2)The autopsy photos were fake. Read "Best Evidence", among others. I have presented links elsewhere in this thread.

[William Seger]

107. Uh-huh

Not content with switching the bodies on the way back to DC (as claimed by your Dr. Crenshaw), the conspirators had to alter the autopsy x-rays and photos. :eyes:

(edit sp)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

113. Yep, you ARE trying to sell a few bridges, aren't you?....

Read this section of the ARRB:

HOW FIVE INVESTIGATIONS INTO JFK’S MEDICAL/AUTOPSY EVIDENCE GOT IT WRONG
<http://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong.htm>

[William Seger]

125. Speaking of "selling"....

How much have you personally spent in the last 40 years on "conspiracy nut" books? If you had bought a copy of every one written, how much would you have spent?

So, on the one hand, we have all this physical evidence and one simple, consistent story that's so obvious -- directly from the physical evidence -- that 5 separate investigations couldn't deny it, even though 4 of them had been convened specifically because of doubts raised by the "conspiracy nuts".

On the other hand, we have a lot of arm-waving, smoke-blowing, shell-gaming, evidence-denying "conspiracy nuts" who end up putting invisible shooters with disappearing bullets all over Dealey Plaza.

Generally, when eyewitness testimony based on memory doesn't match the physical evidence, you go with the physical evidence -- which is especially easy when there's eyewitness testimony that does agree with the physical evidence. With "conspiracy nuts", however, there is a special rule that if eyewitness testimony doesn't match the physical evidence but it does contradict any small part of the WC conclusions, what the heck, you can just ignore the eyewitnesses who argreed with the evidence and add a few more evidence-alterers to the conspiracy story. No problem; in fact, now it's an even better story, and "conspiracy nuts" will stand in line to buy it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

102. Interesting response, but typical of "Lone Nut" theorists...

Your attitude is similar to the attitude of 95% of the "Lone Nut" theorists that I've encountered during my 40 years of research on the JFK assassination. Invaribly, you people tend to be rude, abusive, abrasive, obnoxious, and not above lying when it suits your purposes. You have definitely proven today that you're a proud member of that 95%.

The article I linked systematically refutes the so-called "jet-effect" theory. It is definitely on the net, although, as you stated, it has gone over the limit on hits. Tony Szamboti's study definitely rebutted the so-called "jet-effect" theory because he proved mathematically that Alverez was "blowing smoke". His work is also linked to quite a few of the more reutable JFK Assasination websites.

If you really believe that you're correct on this issue, give it until tomorrow when the hit-load lessens and you get the opportunity to read his analysis. I also want to copy the article so that I can use it to refute that "jet-effect" nonsense as many times as needed.

As far as the doctors are concerned, here's what you stated verbatim in your post:

"...both of which are perfectly consistent with the autopsy finding an entrance wound at the rear part of the skull and an exit wound towards the front (which the four principle ER doctors from Parkland agreed with)..."

Please tell me if I incorrectly copied and pasted your comments to this post.

And here is how I reponded:

"Please tell me the names of the four doctors at Parkland that you claim found an entrance wound at the rear part of the skull and an exit wound towards the front. Then tell me where I might find that sworn testimony."

Now, tell me exactly how I "misrepresented" your comments. Anyone who makes the bold claim like the one referenced above should have tons of material ready to use as references to back up their claims.
So, when are you going to tell me the names of the four doctors who you allege made the claims you referenced in your post and where I might find that testimony?

By the way, did you know that Parkland was a trauma center that treated tons of people with gunshot wounds, and that all of the Parkland doctors had excellent hands-on experience in identifying and treating exit and entrance wounds?

[William Seger]

105. What a crock!

... or is that too "rude, abusive, abrasive, obnoxious" for your thin skin? FYI, I'm starting to notice certain personality characteristics among the "conspiracy nuts", too, but that's hardly relevant to the issues.

You claimed you were accepting my challenge, then demonstrated that either you didn't understand what I wanted explained -- the forward head snap for starters -- or that you were blatently trying to change the subject. I called you on it. Which one is that: rude, abusive, abrasive, obnoxious, or all four? Gosh, I'm so sorry.

And I see you still don't have a response. What a surprise.

Concerning your accusations about the doctors -- which I presume is what you consider the "not above lying when it suits your purposes" part -- I clearly said (and you even quoted) that the autopsy doctors found an entry wound in the back and and exit wound in the front, and that the Parkland doctors agreed with those findings. Perhaps that was a bit briefly stated, but all I meant was, at the WC hearings, when each was asked if -- given what they knew at that point in time, regardless of their initial perceptions -- if they agreed with the general conclusions of the autopsy, and each answered "yes". Yes, you did misrepresent what I was saying and asked me to show where the doctors had found entry and exit wounds, which is not what I said. Okay, no big deal, I clarified that issue and gave you a reasonably usable link to verify if what I actually claim is true. But, instead of replying to the issue, you call me a liar.

I'm glad we settled all that. :eyes:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

111. Yes...we did settle it...

...and you ARE a liar. Truth hurts doesn't it?

And your latest post is one of the biggest cases of not responding to the exact questions that I've ever seen come from a "Lone Nut" theorist. Amazing!

Heads up...the link to the article I submitted earlier is working again. I suggest that you copy the article and then paste it into your Word program so the the mathmatical formulae will be copied correctly. Then you can take your time analyzing the information.

A critical look at Luis Alvarez’s jet effect explanation for the head movement of John Kennedy when he was assassinated on November 22, 1963
by Tony Szamboti, mechanical engineer
<http://www.geocities.com/whiskey99a/jeteffectrebut.html>


As a side note, I don't think much of the theory Tony later offers for the source of the headshot...I think the limo moving at 14 mph past that particular manhole cover would have been moving too fast for someone that close to have acquired the target, much less hit it. My personal preference for the frontal headshot is a position located at the angle formed by the Grassy Knoll and the Triple Overpass. That would have allowed a shot to have struck JFK in the right top front of his skull at the hairline, and exit by way of the large wound in the back of JFK's head.

I also don't know what to make of his discussion about Rommel at the end of his document.

By the way, did you know that none of the autopsy doctors in Bethesda saw an entry wound in the back of JFK's head? They did see an entry wound in his back, about 5 inches below JFK's collarline, but no entry wound in the back of his head.

[William Seger]

134. The "jet effect" doesn't need to do all the work

When I first noticed the forward snap, and noticed that the chin was already almost on the chest, it looked to me like the chin just bounced of the chest and the tension in his neck snaps the head back. Now I know that's called the "compression/recoil" explanation, and I think that together with the "jet effect", the motion is explained.

"By the way, did you know that none of the autopsy doctors in Bethesda saw an entry wound in the back of JFK's head? They did see an entry wound in his back, about 5 inches below JFK's collarline, but no entry wound in the back of his head."

No, I didn't "know" that, because it isn't true! From the WC final report:

The detailed autopsy of President Kennedy performed on the night of November 22 at the Bethesda Naval Hospital led the three examining pathologists to conclude that the smaller hole in the rear of the President's skull was the point of entry and that the large opening on the right side of his head was the wound of exit.

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/WCR/wcr3.html#p12

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

172. Nasty entrance wound!

Why do I put so much faith into this sketch by one of the first doctors to see Kennedy after the assasination? He had no reason to lie. For him, there was no Oswald. There were no conspiracies. This is minutes after the attack. The fact that all the other doctors at Parkland agree with his assesment is equally compelling.

However, I can think of at least one good reason why the government would lie about it. Can't you?

[Solomon]

129. Why do the Warren appologists insist so much on the head snapping

forward thing? I just don't see it. He was falling forward anyway as a result of the neck wound when his head violently snapped back by what looks like a front shot. I'm intrigued by the argument that a back wound would have made his head snap back, but it doesn't help to put up this argument that the head snapped forward first. No matter how many times I look and freeze frame etc., I just don't see the head snapping forward.

Somebody has got to explain the discrepancy between the doctors' pictures of the hole in the back of his head, with the autopsy photo showing no damage to the back of his head.

I still have to believe what my eyes saw, he was struck from the front.

[William Seger]

131. Pretty simple

"Why do the Warren appologists insist so much on the head snapping forward thing?"

Obviously, it's to counter the argument that "back and to the left" must mean a shot from the front. The forward snap comes first, and unlike the backward movement, it's coincident with the bullet hit.

"I still have to believe what my eyes saw..."

Sorry, that doesn't seem to be the case, if you refuse to see the forward snap, even with my enlarged version. But that certainly doesn't make it go away. I first noticed it while watching in "real time", so I checked it out with the individual frames. When I went looking around the web, I found that lots of people know it's there, but "grassy knoll" buffs just consistently ignore it. I think it's very easy to see in the movie, but apparently, if you don't want it to conflict with an established belief, it's impossible to see it even in the still frames. Oh well, it's still there.

[Retrograde]

162. Alvarez and the jet effect

"Just what does this Alvarez guy know about physics anyway?" I swear I read this many years ago on a JFK conspiracy newsgroup. It seems to come up periodically when someone wants to claim that the jet effect is somehow a conspiracy attempt to discredit conspiracy buffs. (And yes, I know who Luis Alvarez is, and what he's done.)

"Does the credibility of the theory depend on who proposed it?" To some extent, yes, especially in the absence of any physical evidence. WRT the jet effect, however, Alvarez not only proposed it but presented both theoretical and experimental evidence for the jet effect, the latter of which can be reproduced by anyone who wants to try. Kinda like what real scientists do - propose hypothesis and test it.

linda

[Larry Gude]

180. In support of my fellow 25% ers...

…the world is flat. The Sun revolves around the earth.

The facts are 75% of us KNOW that JFK was not shot from behind, KNOW Oswald didn’t do it and KNOW no one could have done it as described by the Warren Commission.

75% of us have this faith and it is simply that: faith. There is a deep emotional commitment to ‘ABO’ (anyone but Oswald) and frankly, it would be catastrophic for them to accept otherwise. What next, no Easter Bunny?

Now, for anyone interested in the facts, like us ‘heretics,’ what is fact is that the shots were made with a specific weapon and the TSBD fits the trajectories and the shots could be done in the time that they did occur.

These are simply indisputable unless you are emotionally committed to it being otherwise.

Every other theory over the last 40 years has proven highly unlikely to impossible.

So, probable vs. possible/if pigs could fly.

Oh yeah. There is also one person who stands out as having motive and opportunity, but that would be like speculating as to what effect, if any, Toys R Us has on Santa and his Elves.

There is, however, plenty of cover up including the ugly fact that the CIA had been sort of keeping an eye on the man who murdered the President of the United States and that Bobby and Jack had spent plenty of time trying to...assassinate a foreign leader.

When you have evidence like the Zapruder film and people deny reality, it's time to allow people their faith.

Kudos to jsw, Andy, rjb and Seger for a good try though.

[Zhade]

96. I see no foreward head snap.

Can you clarify it for me?

[William Seger]

99. Look at the red lines.

Look at the red line behind Kennedy's head: Between frames 312 and 313, in 1/18th of a second, his head snaps forward at least two inches. 314 is about the same position (which probably means the head went somewhat more forward between those two frames and is then on its way back), and in 315 it is back to the original position. Compare that to the red lines near other passengers' heads, which I put there because someone claimed that everyone was being pitched forward by the car slowing down.

[Zhade]

104. Yeah...still don't see the snap.

Relative to the other passengers, I don't see the forward movement you're describing.

[William Seger]

106. How about this:

[Jen72]

121. Me either, expect when he was holding his throat in his hands,

and poor Jackie was trying to be calm, next to him.
The shot to the the head cause him to fall to the left and snap back.
He looked like he had been shot in the face.
It was that shot, while watching the BBC documentry, which discredited
the arguement that Oswald was a lone killer.

[Andyjunction]

77. That's not right

Maybe that's how it works in some bad movies but not in real life. This is a picture of a head shot from behind.

[jsw_81]

72. Yes but...

The vast, vast majority of the blood etc. went forward indicating a shot from the rear. You can see this clearly in the Nix film and you can also see the back of Kennedy's head intact after the fatal shot. I'll try to find a copy of the Nix film and provide you with a link in a few minutes.

And don't forget that when you play the Zapruder film in slow motion, you can clearly see a piece of Kennedy's skull flying forward almost like a rocket the moment he's hit in the head. It really is an astonishing thing to see. But don't take my word for it, watch it!

[aeon flux]

82. ??

Photos/video that show Secret Service agents wiping clean Kennedy's car as it is sitting in the Parkland Hospital driveway. These guys were caught actually hosing down the interior of the vehicle. Can it get anymore blatant?

A manager at a Ford plant said he saw workers at the plant replacing the windshield of Kennedy's limo. He says he noticed the presence of a large 'bullethole' in this windshiled where 'a bullethole penetrated and went clean through.' The manager described seeing the federal agents who brought the car in. Many witnesses also confirm the presence of this bullethole.

What bullet created the hole in the windshield of Kennedy's vehicle? Why was someone apparently trying to cover it up?

[Andyjunction]

84. my theory

I don't know that there was a bullet hole in the windshield but it's very possible. I believe the bullet from the head shot could have continued through the windshield and struck the curb near the underpass where Tague got some shrapnel in the cheek.

I'll admit that I have no way of knowing if this is true or not but it at least is consistent and makes sense.

[William Seger]

93. Not a hole; just windshield damage

The chrome strip around the inside of the windshield had a dent, and the windshield right next to that dent had damage on the inside, but not a hole all the way through. The "neutron activation analysis", which matched a bullet fragment found in the front seat to fragments found in Kennedy's head, links that damage to the same bullet -- the fatal head shot.

The NAA also proved that the "magic bullet" found on the stretcher at Parkland -- which even the conspiracists admit was fired from Oswald's rifle -- matched the fragments found in Connally's wrist.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/Scientific_topics/NAA/NAA_and_assassination_II/Conclusions.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

103. Sorry...you're wrong again...

...and I know that you really hate that. I really hate it for you.

Quite a few people saw the hole in the windshield...
<http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/VP/glanges.html-2>

"SECRET SERVICE AGENT CHARLES TAYLOR., IN HIS REPORT TO WFO SAIC HARRY W. GEIGLEIN , NOTES THAT HE SAW A “SMALL HOLE” IN THE WINDSHIELD OF SS-100-X (TAYLOR WAS THERE FROM 9:00 P.M. UNTIL 12 MID)"

OTHERS WHO SAW/ KNEW OF HOLE:

CHICAGO SA ABRAHAM W. BOLDEN, SR- 9/16/93 interview with Vince Palamara;

DPD OFFICERS STAVIS ELLIS AND H.R. FREEMAN (outriders in motorcade)-
CFTR RADIO INTERVIEW, 1976; "NO MORE SILENCE" BY LARRY SNEED (1998), PP. 147-148;

fragment. The officer on the escort with me said there was one fragment, approximately 6 or 7 inches around.";]

NEWSMEN RICHARD DUDMAN AND the AP's FRANK CORMIER- ST. LOUIS
POST-DISPATCH, 12/1/63; for Cormier, see "Seeds of Doubt: Some Questions About The Assassination" by Jack Minnis and Staughton Lynd, 12/63, p. 4,

"Killing The Truth", p. 64, and 17 H 614video “Air Force One: The Planes and the Presidents”]

SPECTATORS EVALEA GLANGES AND CARL RENAS- “JFK CONSPIRACY OF SILENCE”,
PP. 105-107, 110;

TWO DIFFERENT UNIDENTIFIED CALLERS: TO THE “JIM BOHANNON” RADIO SHOW
(Doug Weldon, as verified via e-mails to Vince Palamara, 1998),
11/22/93, AND TO “LARRY KING” TV SHOW, JANUARY 1992 (unknown)

well as the TWO different photos that comprise CE 350 and 351: 16 H
946-947] .

[William Seger]

108. WOW! I guess they altered this photo, too! Dang, those guys were good!

LMAO, thanks for your "sympathy", but it doesn't really matter how many people thought there was a hole all the way through the windshield. It wasn't. It was likely caused by being hit from the inside by the bullet fragment that was found in the front of the limo, which was matched by the NAA to the fragments in Kennedy's skull. Deepest regrets, but this is really just more physical evidence for a shot from the rear. Still waiting for your explanation for the other items on my list.



(edit sp, clarity)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

109. So, you want everyone to believe that all of the witnesses, including...

...several law enforcement officers, who actually saw a hole in the windshield were wrong, and that a photo taken from a bad angle proves there was only a crack in the windshield?

Good one. Are you going to start selling bridges next?

I'm still waiting on the documentation that I asked you to provide on the testimony of the four Parkland doctors you claim saw an entrance wound in the back of the head and an exit wound in the front. You have tried to dance around that issue, but unfortunately for you, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire. Cough up, or admit you were lying.

Take your time...I know exactly how you "Lone Nut" theorists work.

[William Seger]

110. For you, I should leave off the quotes on "conspiracy nut"

... but I'm too polite. I believe what I see in that photo, and it ain't a hole. Oh yeah, just a "bad angle"... and of course, let's add all those people who actually examined it and said it wasn't a hole to the list of conspirators.

How many is that now?

You seem to forget that what I actually said is still posted right here on this page. I said the autopsy doctors found evidence of the rear entry and front exit wounds, and at the WC, the Parkland doctors agreed with the autopsy report, and both statements are true. Look it up.

No, no need to apologize; I forgive you. I'm starting to understand how you "conspiracy nuts" work.

Which also means that I won't be holding my breath waiting for any explanation for those issues I listed. I wouldn't wanna burn your feet or anything.

G'nite.

[kcwayne]

75. What happens when you spit in a convertable?

If you spit facing forward, you tend to get your face splattered.
So it may not be so much that the blood was trajected backwards, but that the debris did not continue to accelerate forward, while the motorcycle cop following did, and he ran into it.

After the first shot, I think the evidence shows that the car sped up, and was probably doing 30mph when the head wound occurred.

[Andyjunction]

79. actually

The car was nearly at a stop when the head shot comes. You can see the driver even looking over his shoulder to see what's happening. Then he speeds off after he's covered in blood. Brain matter went in every direction. It was all over the place but the vast majority of it is still going up and forward, consistent with a shot from the book depository.

[kcwayne]

85. It wasn't nearly at a stop

You can calculate the speed the car was moving by analyzing individual frames.

Zapruder Frames

at frame 282, Kennedy has been shot in the neck, and the car is passing in front of an individual on the other side of the street, so you can get a bearing of horizontal distance traveled by scaling the height of the individual relative to the left to right motion of the car.

At frame 287, the car has moved roughly 6 feet per this estimate.

I think that the film frame rate is 17 frames per second.

So 5 frames equates to .29 seconds. 6ft/.29 seconds = 14 miles per hour.

At frame 318, Kennedy as already been hit in the head. There is a mark in the grass on the other side of the street directly across from Jackie. At frame 324 that mark is about 5 feet to the left of Jackie.

So using the same calculation, at the time of the head shot the car was moving about the same speed.



Edit: fixed link

[TruthIsAll]

89. Proof it was 5.6 seconds: 18.3 frames/ second, 102 frames = 5.6 seconds

SECRETS OF A HOMICIDE: Science of Motion
... The first issue to deal with was one of timing. Zapruder's Bell & Howell Zoomatic camera operated at an average speed of 18.3 frames per second. ...
www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/motion.htm - 10k - Nov 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages



frame 313 - shot in head
frame 211 = 313- 102 = first shot, 5.6 seconds earlier

Q.E.D.
there you go.

[William Seger]

112. Not so fast

Q.E.D.? Where's the proof that the first shot was at frame 211?

I don't know any way to tell for sure, but some people who heard the shots claim the first shot came about frame 145 to 150, right after the limo completed the turn (which would be slightly before the tree blocked Oswald's aim), and Kennedy, Connally, and a little girl on the grass all do "head takes" shortly thereafter. Without corroborating evidence, that number and yours are both just speculation, not proof. What seems to be more solid is that the "magic bullet" shot was at 224, because Connally's jacket lapel flips forward. That's nearly 4 seconds after the possible time of the first shot and it gives 4.6 to get off the third shot.

No Q.E.D. here; move along.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

120. Nothing to see with your post, either.

As usual.

So, where did the "mystery bullet" go after it was fired at Frame 160? Where's YOUR proof?

[William Seger]

149. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Where's my proof of what? Maybe if I put this in bold, you can read it better: "Without corroborating evidence, that number and yours are both just speculation, not proof."

And just in case the point isn't obvious enough for you: You insisted that you had proved Oswald only had 5.6 seconds to fire three shots, which proved (in your mind) he couldn't have really have done the shooting. First, that isn't true on the face of it -- three shots can be fired in 5.6 seconds: http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100timing.html -- and more importantly, there is no proof that he only had 5.6 seconds! "Q.E.D.", my ass.

[Andyjunction]

174. Why bother with math for this?

You can see the limo slow down with your naked eye and a regular old brain to process the images. No math required and no need to make false assumptions about the timing of the shots.

[uhhuh]

87. Even if Oswald was the shooter

That doesn't say there was no conspiracy. I don't think there is absolute evidence either way as to whether Oswald was the only one firing at the time, but I think what is much more telling is that these supposed "lone nuts" were very busy in the 60's, getting JFK, MLK, Malcolm X, and also Robert Kennedy.
Even with absolute proof that Oswald was the only shooter, which I don't believe was presented on ABC, since they just showed their computer generated simulations, which they could have easily overlayed on the Zapruder footage, which they did not, it doesn't preclude that he may have been involved in a plot to kill the President.

[Jen72]

123. Then Oswald was shot by a lone gunman,

the whole thing was about two lonely, men that needed attention.
No way do I believe that is what happened, you are right about the phenomena of lone nuts shooting important leaders in the 60's too.

[GOPBasher]

90. I didn't have an opinion until you presented this evidence.

I must say that I never really thought about it too much, and I didn't really have an opinion until just now. From what you presented, it certainly looks like a conspiracy. If everything you said is true, I don't think it's even debatable. One thing though, what was/were your source(s) on that info? I just want to make sure it's all true before I make up my mind and decide it was a conspiracy.

[TruthIsAll]

98. Many years, many books, many sources... but you can check out these..

I was 20 in 1963. I have followed the 1964 Warren Commission.

In the 1969, Garrison trial of Clay Shaw, the jury was convinced it was a conspiracy, but did not convict Shaw. The jury viewed the Zapruder film seven years before the public did.

In 1973, Watergate.

In 1977, the HSCA investigation of the JFK and MLK murders. What a letdown. The HSCA was forced at the very end to admit a JFK conspiracy based on the acoustic evidence. They also said MLK was probably a conspiracy. But to their eternal shame, the HSCA still perpetuated the Warren Commission fiction that Oswald fired the fatal shots. They copped out by saying the Grassy Knoll gunman MISSED.

Here are some books:
Rush to Judgment - Lane
Plausible Denial - Lane
Crossfire - Marrs
Best Evidence - Lifton
On the Trail of the Assassins - Garrison
The Last Investigation - Fonzi
The Man Who Knew Too Much - Nagel
Six Seconds in Dallas - Josiah Thompson
Fletcher Prouty - I forget the names of his great books. Google.

Also, Google for any Quiz statement. You will get lots of links.

[GOPBasher]

160. Thanks for the sources.

And thanks for getting my head into this issue. I should read up on it, even though it's yet another thing that will piss me off all the time. :)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

173. Best Evidence is a good read.

Especially the Parkland Hospital analysis. The Bethesda Naval Hospital analysis is very scary, if true.

[WoodrowFan]

124. Alas, it's all BS

Alas, pretty much every "fact" he posts is total BS, if not a outright lie. Check this site, it's got a TON of info about how the conspiracy nuts distort and lie to present their "case."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Octafish]

128. McAdams is a BFEE lickspittle.

Some with deeper understanding of McAdams' s history put this resource together:

The Official John McAdams FAQ

http://www.geocities.com/justicewell/faq.htm

PS: You really want to get Prof. McAdams mad? Ask him "Where was George Herbert Walker Bush on November 22, 1963?" You'd think he busted a gasket.

[WoodrowFan]

147. I notice you didn't actually refute anything

I notice you didn't actually try to refute anything. Why am I not surprised. :eyes:

[Octafish]

161. What’s there to REFUTE?

All you said above is “It’s all BS.” Then you link readers to McAdams website. Nice work, Woody!

You want to know why I don't bother to respond to every post that supports the Warren Commission? I've got better things to do with my time than re-educate everyone brainwashed by J Edgar Hoover. Seeing how you are such a great Democrat, judging by the way you treat others on DU, perhaps you deserve a more complete answer. So, in the spirit of doing more than you or McAdams have ever done:

Here's a photo depicting the man the CIA identified as Oswald in Mexico City in the summer of 1963. Obviously, the man is not Oswald. Still, that’s who the CIA told the Warren Commission he was, adding the man had visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies there in an effort to obtain visas to return to Moscow. How do we know this? The CIA had those places bugged and made voice recordings. Of course, these recordings were "destroyed as a matter of routine" days after the JFK assassination. The photos were reported to have been destroyed, as well. But, someone found the dupes.

This is important to know because it shows ELEMENTS IN THE US GOVERNMENT WERE AWARE SOMEONE WAS IMPERSONATING OSWALD IN THE WEEKS LEADING UP TO THE ASSASSINATION, YET REPORTED THE MAN IN QUESTION WAS OSWALD. Why is that important? Well, it would “establish” a real link between the Soviets and the JFK assassination. Just like Operation NORTHWOODS, it would provide a made-to-order causus belli.



This should seem more than a bit familiar to Americans, let alone good Democrats, these days, eh WoodrowFan? Echoes of a Lone Nut in Dealy Plaza sound an awful lot like Saddam buying Uranium “from Africa” served to established Iraqi ties to 9-11.

If you still don’t get it, here’s the answer (which is a fuck of a lot more than McAdams and his toadies have ever done for me):

Like the Warren Commission BS, Bush’s lie is just another example of a lie by the US Government.

Unlike those who side with the Warren Commission, I’ve been telling people on DU about that for two years.

And you? I know what BS side you’re on.

[KFC]

94. So they did not catch the second gunner?

All of the conspiracy speculation is garbage unless you can produce the "second shooter". Who is he?

Oh, I know. Invisible or very fast. LOL.

[TruthIsAll]

101. They never even caught the FIRST shooter. Oswald was a patsy.

And you have fallen for it hook, line, sinker.

BTW, did you take the test? You might just pass - and join us.

[tinanator]

119. apprehended three men

the "hobos" with $$$$ shoes. Typical police procedure, get the actuals out of the area safely. Ask Arnold Beverly.

[Octafish]

169. E Howard Hunt swears it wasn't him.

Others disagree.

http://www.konformist.com/jfkland/tramps.htm

[Piperay]

115. Yes...BUT Peter Jennings

said that Oswald was the lone gunman and we all know that the media is correct on everything...CASE CLOSED. (sarcasm here, incase anyone is taking me serious :freak: )

[Solomon]

130. How come americans have no trouble believing (or should I say

understanding) that in other countries such as England, France, etc. there were numerous conspiracies to kill kings, queens and heirs over the centuries, but somehow, when it comes to america, the killings are all perpetrated by lone nuts with no agenda whatsoever?

I guess unlike Rome and every other power, america is the ONLY place where conspiracies to kill leaders don't happen. What is it about our culture that we rigidly adhere to the rule that political conspiracies are just nut theories? Are we that naiive?

[Larry Gude]

136. FASCINATING!!!

...for whomever:

"Live by the Sword" by Gus Russo...1/3 of the book is is reference and bibliography.

[ArkDem]

138. The correct answer to all questions is

who cares?

[reprobate]

155. The correct question is "You should"

I remember following this whole story from england where I was stationed at the time. For some reason, the british TV had massis coverage that apparently wasn't shown here.

I saw interviews witht he medical team that worked on JFK in the hospital. The doctors said at the time (immediately after death declared) that he was killed by a shot from the front of the head and showed a sketch and photo of a massive section of skull missing from the back of his head. Not long after, the official release of the photo showed very little damage at the same spot.

BBC even did a story comparing the two photos and showing where the official photo was touched up to verify the official story. The american media have been lieing to us since at least 1963, just as they are now. You guys can go on argueing all you want about the warren commission, the zapruder film, and everything else. If you depend on the american media for your information, you'll believe the lies and the truth will go by unnoticed.

America has been an Imperial power since at least the mexican american war. Remember the Maine? It was used as an excuse to start the spanish-american war. The media made up EVERYTHING to start the war. We wanted PR, so we took it. Why do you think the Kennedy assasination is any different?

Assassination has been used as a political tool since the caves. Does anyone here think that the political elite are any different or more moral than societies past?

I truly wish that america would wake up. We've been suckered for at least a century, and still no one believes they would do us that way?

[ArkDem]

159. Answer :

who cares?

[reprobate]

163. You don't care?

You don't care that violence has been used against elected political officers for political gain?

You don't care that americans have died to provide larger profits for corporations?

You don't care that truth is no longer spoken in american media?

You don't care that america's Predator Class is syphoning off what wealth the middle class had, and now has a greater wealth ration than at any time in history?

If all the above is true, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE?

Go to www.disney.com and live the fantasy that you believe in.

[aeon flux]

156. What is astonishing to me

a few minutes just before the cameras captured Oswald being escorted out of the Dallas Police station, the networks reported on live national television that there the Dallas PD had taken 'extreme measures' to insure the security of Oswald as he is being escorted out. Then why was it so easy for Ruby to just walk right up and shoot Oswald alomst point-blank?

The President of the United States had just been shot due in large part to lax security, and once again we have a complete breakdown of security as they can't even secure the suspect. There is too much to swallow here to simply blame it on an extreme degree of incompetence on the part of the police and security agencies.

[nomatrix]

164. From The Texas Connection book

“First, the alleged murder weapon was not mechanically capable of being an assassination weapon. The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was manufactured in Italy during WWII and was based on a rifle design from the pervious century(1891). In the 1960’s surplus rifles were sold in bulk for less tan $3.00 each. The construction of the rifle was so poor that they were know to blow up in the shooter’s face. It was never considered to be a sharpshooters weapon, just for masses of foot soldiers in the Italian army.
When rifle was discovered immediately after, it was in such a state of disrepair, the commission’s firearms experts refused to operate the rifle’s bolt action during practice sessions for fear of breaking the firing pin and being injured. One of the poorest made rifles in that century.
The very inexpensive site, with a plastic scope magnified images only up to 4 times their actual size and when tested by the commission, the cheap rifle with it’s plastic scope created a shooting defect that made all shots go high and to the right, completely missing any target sighted through the scope.

When the commission gave this weapon with scope to world class marksmen to test, none were able to hit anything. This was after they rebuild the scope and corrected the rifle’s sighting and alignment defects, and then fire it with aid of a professional gun rest. With all these corrections, none were able to hit a fixed target, let alone a moving one."

by Craig Zirbel, Time Warner books 1991

[0rganism]

167. Well there's your answer! Oswald was trying to assasinate someone else.

> the cheap rifle with it’s plastic scope created a shooting defect
> that made all shots go high and to the right, completely missing
> any target sighted through the scope.

Oswald was trying to take out someone in the Secret Service detail, but his shot went wide right and nailed JFK instead. No conspiracy, no insane play for fame, just another lousy accident. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[ieoeja]

166. Silliness

1. Who cares? Has the initial report on ANYTHING ever been correct?

2. His last test? True. All of his previous tests when it counted? False.

3. Dunno.

4. False.

5. Dunno.

6. True. So what?

7. True. The Dallas Police Department gets really testy about people shooting rifles at people driving down Dealey Plaza. Obviously, this is part of the coverup. On the other hand, at other locations the shooting performance has been repeated successfully many times. Frankly, hitting a target, recocking and firing wildly, then recocking and hitting the target a second time in 5.6 seconds is hardly a difficult shot.

8. True. So what?

9. False.

10. True. Even today initial interrogations are never taped. In 1963 even subsequent interrogations were never taped.

11. True. The man charged with the crime said he didn't do it. This is, of course, serious evidence of a conspiracy as people rarely claim they did not commit a crime unless they are truly innocent.

12. Dunno.

13. True. It is also true that Al Gore was quoted as saying he discovered Love Canal. Al Gore did not, of course, say that. But he was QUOTED as saying it.

14. False. This assertion is based on the premise that fragments removed PLUS those never removed would add up to be too much. The assertion remains unproven.

15. True or False. Kennedy was hit twice. So when you say THE bullet, it depends on which of the two you are talking about as only one of the two hit Connally.

16. False. It was never in the archives having been interred with the body.

17. True. But then Vietnam was quiescent at that time and would heat back up shortly.

18. False. If that's what you see when you watch this film, you are seeing something I certainly do not.

19. Dunno.

20. True. Wouldn't this actually be evidence AGAINST a conspiracy?

21. Dunno. But either way this is not indicative of a conspiracy.

22. Dunno. But see 21.

23. Dunno. But see 21.

24. Dunno. But eyewitnesses are among the least reliable evidence in any trial.

25. False. This is sort of the opposite of 13. The fact that this is disputed means that the evidence is not incontrovertible. Heck, I thought the review evidence of a TD in a game yesterday was incontrovertible, but the replay officials disagreed. So this is opinion, not fact.

26. False. I never thought the "magic" bullet was that important. In fact, I always thought the Warren Commission had the wrong bullet (see 15).

27. False. And you just repeated 14.

28. True or False. Again, you just repeated 15.

29. Dunno.

30. False. And you just repeated 18.

31. False. Einstein, et al largely proved Newton's formulas are relative.

32. True. In fact, Oswald was almost certainly motivated to kill JFK for political purposes making this a political assassination.

I still believe Oswald did it.

[TruthIsAll]

177. You flunked. Miserably. Go back, read the books, and try again..

All are TRUE. Your snide, cavalier responses cannot hide your ignorance. All are verifiable.

Google, don't gurgle, while searching for the answers.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

170. FAUX News For Once Impressed Me

Greta Van Sustern had a show that aired twice last week, "JFK: Case Not Closed". They discussed the recent D.B. Thomas study of the acoustic evidence that appeared in the official peer-reviewed publication of the U.K. Forensic Science Society that suggested a 96% probability of four shots with at least one from the grassy knoll. They also had forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht, who suggested that the x-rays of Kennedy's brain evidence use of two different kinds of bullet shards from two different kinds of bullets were used, one of them a "dum-dum" bullet or type of ammunition used by hit-men that explodes on impact. Regarding the acoustic evidence in Thomas' study, they also had evidence that the Dealey Plaza bell in its belltower was on the recording, an issue that the Fox study completely failed to address or to refute. YOU COULD HEAR THE BELL RIGHT ON THE AUDIO!!! Whereas, Fox claimed that the acoustic evidence didn't even come from a location close enough to the plaza to capture the sound of the gunshots. Anyway, I thought it was pretty impressive for FAUX. Maybe Murdoch is a conspiracy buff.

On another note, I read in several places on the Internet that the so-called palm print of Oswald found on the rifle CAME FROM UNDERNEATH THE STOCK! In other words, it could only have been placed there when the rifle was taken apart, presumably for cleaning. There apparently was never any evidence found, either on the rifle or the shells that proved that Oswald had handled it on 11/22/63.

[Pinko Commie]

178. ABCs Orwellian Program

I can't decide if I believe ABCs special or not, mostly because they didn't present any facts. But they sure tried like hell to persuade me.

1) Any program using Posner as an expert is suspect to begin with. His premis is that to understand why it was Oswald, we have to understand what a shmuck Oswald was. I wasn't aware that convicting someone of murder because they were a shmuck was a valid legal theory. You need facts for that, but then, all Posner's facts are in dispute.

Of course, I'm ignoring all the double-dealing Posner himself has been accused of with regard to his book.

2) Did you note how most of the show consisted of people saying "well, I knew him and he couldn't have done that". Oswald's brother: "Well, Lee was like that. So I guess he was the lone assassin". On Ruby: "Everybody knew Ruby was a screw-up. No one would have used him to silence Oswald. So he couldn't possibly have done it." Are there any facts in here, anywhere?

3) Although ABC did present a limited number of facts, they presented them as if they were undisputed. Never once did they mention that those facts have been in constant dispute for more than 20 years. Where was the attempt to clarify? Where was there anything here but the same tired drooling of the supporters of the WR?

4) How this could have been "causing controversy" before the broadcast is beyond me.

5) Did anyone notice the tone at the beginning? How "natural" is was for us to want to believe it had to be more than just chance? How its OK to feel that way, we shouldn't feel bad about it?

Who the hell ever thought that? Most people wanted to know who did it and why, mostly because we may have lost our democracy that day.


This was the most worthless "investigation" since the two CBS did. The only thing missing was Peter Jennings telling us all to roll over and go back to sleep.

[nolabels]

179. When they release the mountain of files on the murder, then it might...

be different. To think it happened 40 years ago and the whole alleged reason to keep it secret is gone seem to put it more to the point.

http://www.assassinationweb.com/newman1.htm
Electronic Assassinations Newsletter

Issue #2 New Discoveries in the Recently Released Assassination Files

IN THE FILES

by

John Newman



There are, I believe, troubling aspects surrounding the allegations of an association between Oswald and his murderer Jack Ruby. It is troubling not because such allegations can be proven or not, but because they reveal dramatic gaps, contradictions and possible deliberate obfuscation in the official records of this case.

Allow me to illustrate this point. John Franklin Elrod, an unfortunate alcoholic who happened to be walking along the railroad tracks not far from where Kennedy was shot on 22 November 1963, was thrown into the Dallas jail, arrested on suspicion of involvement in the assassination. He claims that in 1964 he told the FBI in Memphis that Oswald had identified another prisoner, one Lawrence Miller, in the jail that day. Miller had been arrested two days earlier with Jack Ruby's auto mechanic Donnell Whitter with US Army weapons stolen from National Guard Armory in Terrell, Texas.

Elrod claimed Oswald spoke of a meeting he had attended with Miller and Jack Ruby in which a "contract" was discussed and money changed hands. The FBI report which went to Washington at the time, however, made no mention of Oswald as the source of this information. More troubling still, is the Dallas FBI attachment to Elrod's FBI interrogation, which attempted to discredit Elrod's claim by stating flatly that Elrod had not been in the Dallas jail at all that day. The FBI will have some difficulty then in explaining the Dallas police record of Elrod's 22 November arrest and incarceration in the Dallas jail, a record that did not surface until February 1992
(snip)

[jsw_81]

181. More damning proof of Lee Oswald's guilt

On the day of the shooting, two of Oswald's Book Depository co-workers, James Jarman and Harold Norman, were looking out the building's fifth-floor windows (directly under Oswald's "sniper's nest") to get a good view of the president's car. As Kennedy passed below, they heard a gunshot directly above them, followed by what sounded like a shell casing hitting the floor only a few feet above their heads. They even heard what sounded like the bolt action of a rifle. This was followed by two more shots and two more casings hitting the floor. Think about that for a moment. These men heard three shots. Not four or five or seven or ten like the conspiracy nuts claim, only three. And they were directly below the window where several witnesses on the ground saw a man who matched Lee Oswald's height and complexion fire three shots at the motorcade. And both Jarman and Norman were African-American, and huge supporters of President Kennedy. Why would they lie? Were they in on the conspiracy?



Here they are a few moments after the assassination.

[bobbyboucher]

183. Well, that settles it.

Oswald did it alone.