No Joke: RNC Excited That Kerry And Clark Are Behind Dean In The Polls

[DrFunkenstein]

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/pollwatch102803.htm

<>

And if you look at their research generally, they seem (strangely) much more preoccupied with Kerry and Clark than they do with Dean.

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/default.htm

Anyone have any suggestions as to why that might be? Why is the RNC so quick to point out that Kerry and Clark are "faltering" (hardly) behind Dean?

Does anyone know who does better in head-to-head match ups against Bush? Who does worse?

If we are going to beat these SOB's, we have to know what they are thinking and why. I can only type out "4 more years" because it gets stuck in my throat if I try to say it out loud.

<>

[Closer]

1. Nice

job of putting your "opinions" and "thoughts for discussion" in the post from a conservative source so your post won't die. :eyes:

I can tell you're oh so concerned :eyes:


:eyes:

[meegbear]

4. I know ...

thank God you deanpers never do that.

[Closer]

Nice catch on the edit

I was wondering who goid was. :eyes:

See where being in such a hurry to attack a group of people (Dean supporters) will get ya. Yep, with words like goid. See, and then you look all silly. Take your time in the attack next time, ok :freak:

And tell Mama Bear I said hi :hi:

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Actually, I Did Post My Opinion

We have to know what they are thinking and why, because no one wants 4 more years due to an easily-whomped candidate.

Why don't you try actually addressing the issue?:eyes:

[dfong63]

15. if you think Dean is so easily "whomped",

then let's see Kerry do it in the primaries.

:eyes:

[DrFunkenstein]

28. Do You Think I Doubt For A Moment That He Will?

Your sense of inevitability is a little much, doncha think?

PS - Who really uses the eye roll?

[Scott Lee]

75. Goodness, a year ago Dean was a flash in the pan.....

So uh, what else won't he be able to accomplish? Speak into the mic please...

[dsc]

34. Maybe because I did and still haven't gotten an answer from you.

That could be the reason.

[drfemoe]

55. I think they are thinking

that a lot of people believe whatever spew they come up with. :puke:

[dsc]

2. Each and every time this point is raised

I say the same thing and get silence in response. In 1980, Democrats were delighted that Reagan beat Bush in the primaries. They were sure that Reagan was to extreme to win. American would never vote for a pro life, pro gun, pro segregation President. Reagan would lose 40 states. We all know what happened, now don't we?

[virtualobserver]

3. and imagine if a poorly run campaign like Kerry's

went up against the Bush machine.

Fortunately, we won't have to watch that nightmare.

[blm]

18. Kerry assembled the best team to defeat Bush and never

intended to crush other Democrats first.

Dean doesn't think twice about attacking other Democrats because he had lots of experience doing it in Vermont while he aligned with his GOP buddies there.

Kerry has brought down more Republicans through his investigations of BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning than any other lawmaker in modern history. Clinton won in 92 thanks to Kerry exposing so much of the corruption in the Reagan and Bush administrations.

His team are the top experts in antiterror and the intel community is lined up with Kerry, too. BushInc. knows this.

[virtualobserver]

32. So expecting a coronation, he wasn't prepared to win the nomination.

I'm sure that he will continue to do an excellent job in the Senate.

I might be influenced by the "intel community" support if Kerry hadn't voted for the quagmire (IWR) and naively trusted Bush to do the right thing in Iraq.

[JNelson6563]

65. thank you

when I see Kerry supporters point at his intel connections Ijust slap my thigh. Yeah, Kerry, master of the intel duped by a simain. har har har!!

He can't even beat a nobody Governor from a nowhere state, yet it is mostly Kerry supporters quivering in fear of what Rove and the GOP propaganda machine will do to Dean. hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

Hilarious.

And for that added dose of hilarity, they are dead serious in this fear and terror of Rove Inc.! <snarf> *siiiiiiiiiigh* *sniff* heh heh It's almost too sad to be funny. Almost.....haha

Julie

[virtualobserver]

69. Yeah, watching Kerry supporters try to defend his candidacy......

reminds me of all of the times that I have had to endure the experience of supporting candidates like him.

It is such a relief to have Dean as my candidate.

[blm]

96. The relief is all Bush's.

.

[virtualobserver]

103. yeah, he wants an opponent like Dean who will "bring it on"

He would have been irritated by Kerry's droning voice.

[blm]

68. Guess you forgot about 1984? Glenn had the numbers to beat Reagan

but Mondale had the numbers to beat Glenn.

[virtualobserver]

72. Yeah, I'm convinced......that Dynamo John Glenn

would have beaten Reagan.

Mondale was a great guy, but not too exciting. Dean is dynamic.

[Scott Lee]

76. Bush-hole is no Reagan. Your analogy just got a flat.

.

[dsc]

95. Modale also had the numbers to beat Reagan at that time

he lost it later in the year.

Here is a link which backs me up.

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/3773d689.912

Early polls showed President Bush beating Clinton in the 1992 campaign, Michael Dukakis beating Bush in 1988, Walter Mondale beating President Reagan in 1984 and President Carter beating Reagan in 1980, Mellman said.

This is from an article which ran in 1999 and is comparing early polls. Note the words Mondale beating Reagan.

[okieinpain]

88. well then he will be a great asset to dean, in the general election

.

[blm]

92. Dean already took advantage of Kerry's team's work.

Gary Hart already poked holes in Bush on pre9-11, Rand Beers poked holes in Bush on post 9-11 and Joe Wilson poked at Bush's credibility on Iraq intel and did it WITH Kerry behind him. Just like Max Cleland who hits at Bush with every opportunity.

Too bad so many here at DU want to keep this team as silent as Bush does. Then you reward Dean. You actually think Dean is the one who brought down Bush's credibility? Nope. Dean and his people are keeping them from being heard more loudly by making Dean and the horserace a bigger story.

[IndianaGreen]

100. Let's see, Kerry was outside Jesus's Tomb when He rose...

I am just waiting for the next preposterous claim about Kerry's greatness and annointed leadership.

:P

[okieinpain]

87. that's what I'm thinking. if kerry can't get his sh** together now,

what makes anyone think he's going to do any better against bush.

[Eloriel]

35. The GOP -- some, not all -- are blinded by the same stuff

that has the DNC and DLC "concerned." None of them get it.

I was reading an article a week or two ago on some poll results, and it dawned on me: THIS is what the establishment (of both parties) see, and that's all they see. They make their determinations on this. Now, mind you, it's not that the poll results were unfavorable to Dean (few are). It was just that the polls give only a very flat, one-dimensional "picture" of what's going on in a campaign, what a candidate is all about, and even to a large extent the kind of support he's getting. It's NOT the real world -- and especially since this poll (IIRC) was national. That's VERY misleading, IF readers aren't very well aware that STILL at this stage very few people are plugged in enough to even be able to identify any of the names of candidates on their own. (Remember, only 10% of the electorate pays attention to politics on a regular basis.)

So: those in the GOP and DNC/DLC who are STILL thinking Dean is a long shot or unelectable, etc., based on any numbers especially nationally are playing off that multiply-discredited "conventional wisdom" that makes them think they actually know something. They don't. If they're not getting a whole lot closer to the campaigns than just looking at poll numbers, they'll never get it.

And oh, I love it when they echo one another, as if those echoes somehow increase the validity of the foolishness they spout.

Frankly, I'm delighted if there are any people in the GOP heirarchy who are more worried about Kerry and Clark. I love surprises of the type they're going to get: RUDE!

Eloriel

[AP]

50. In '80, '84 and '88 fools were running the Democratic Party.

It wasn't until '92 that they figured out what it took to win.

Also, what's your evidence that the Dems were excited to face Reagan? I can imagine that people were glad not to face the consumate Republican insider who might have been Deep Throat. However, to think that a former movie star and Californian was going to be easy? I think I'll need to see some evidence.

[dsc]

52. sorry wrong window

I was looking at a different posters post when I typed that. You don't stiff on links. I can't find anything yet though both my parents were told by local dems to vote for Reagan, neither did but they were told too,

[Silverhair]

104. We were excited to be facing Reagan. I remember.

Everbody thought it was going to be 1964 all over again. We all know the results. That is one reason why I keep posting on the dangers of under estimating the opposition.

[SadEagle]

5. They're trying to mess w/our heads.

I don't think we can interpret what they say either way. We have to decide for ourselves.

[DrFunkenstein]

10. This Is For GOP Consumption, Not General Public

This is where conservatives get their talking points from. I have seen alot of the "research" here turn up later in op-ed pieces.

[Demeter]

6. If There Were Any Way to Know

I doubt the RNC would know it. The GOP has proven itself to be incapable of dealing with reality, unless it's for sale. Assuming wholesale bribery and vote buying is not on their agenda, they are going on emotion. I haven't gotten my bribe yet, have you?

[paulk]

44. The GOP controls the Executive, both houses of Congress

and the Supreme Court. That's reality. Underestimate them at your peril.

[Zynx]

8. Why do they gloat in Dean doing badly in some polls then?

"Dean Seventh In Key Battleground State. A Quinnipiac University poll asked likely Democrat Primary voters who they would support in the primary election:"

"Not Sure" Has Three Times Dean's Support. A Zogby poll asked likely Democrat primary voters who they favored in the primary election:"

"Undecided Closing In On Dean. A Franklin Pierce College poll asked likely New Hampshire Democrat primary voters who they favored in the primary election:"

[quinnox]

9. It's a dream come true for them

A Dean nomination is a dream scenario for the republicans.

Let's give them a nightmare instead and nominate a candidate that can win!

[Zynx]

12. Explain these then:

"Dean Seventh In Key Battleground State. A Quinnipiac University poll asked likely Democrat Primary voters who they would support in the primary election:"

"Not Sure" Has Three Times Dean's Support. A Zogby poll asked likely Democrat primary voters who they favored in the primary election:"

"Undecided Closing In On Dean. A Franklin Pierce College poll asked likely New Hampshire Democrat primary voters who they favored in the primary election:"

Why are they gloating about polls in which Dean is lagging?

[gristy]

17. Qantify your post please

Numbers and links. Could it be that "not sure" has x times greater support than any Dem candidate? Numbers and links please.

[Zynx]

20. They are right there on the link Funkenstein provided.

Take a look for yourself.

[Touchdown]

54. Here's a novel idea.

Why don't we nominate someone that the most of WE DEMOCRATS want to be president, instead of who we think these RNC trogs want to run against? :eyes:

This is about us. It's not about the RNC. I don't give a shit what they think, because if I thought they had a single good idea among them, and didn't lie throught their teeth 24/7, then I would vote Repug half the time.

And yes, Funkenstein. I love to use the rolleyes.

[IndianaGreen]

11. RNC is not worried about Kerry's moribund campaign. Clark is another...

RNC is not worried about Kerry's moribund campaign. Clark is another matter altogether. The flurry of stories smearing Clark, including the ludicrous Waco "connection" tells me that the RNC is really worry about Clark.

You haven't heard the RNC attack Kerry or Edwards or Lieberman or Gephardt. But you have heard a lot of attacks on Dean and Clark, particularly Clark in the past few days.

Karl Rove is worried.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. Don't You Friggin' People Ever Read The Actual Posts?

Look at the RNC research page. They are much more concerned about Kerry and Clark.

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/default.htm

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

59. Actually, I think they don't

Over the last few weeks I have become convinced that people only read thread titles. If you want them to read and absorb anything else, make it brief and make it include as little "off-site" research as possible. Otherwise forget it.

Here's my two cents: I'm a Dean supporter, so I certainly have my own biases in reacting to the article you posted. I know that the Republicans think Dean will be the easiest candidate to beat, but I'm not convinced. I honestly believe he can beat Bush, and some of the stuff I've read lately tells me that some of the Republicans are starting to take the guy seriously, as well they should, in my opinion. Say what you will about the guy, but it's impossible to deny that he gets people fired up. Whether or not that ultimately will outweigh his negatives is another point obviously, but anyone who overlooks his ability to manufacture enthusiasm in people is missing a big part of the picture. In any case, it's difficult to say how this will really play out.

Just speaking for myself, I got out of the prediction business last year after we got creamed in the mid-term elections. Things that have happened since then (particularly the California recall) have only reinforced my perception that we're in a political climate unlike any other, and that conventional theories and conventional wisdom may no longer apply to the current election cycle. In short, I have no idea how things are going to pan out, and I don't believe anyone else does either.

You've posted a lot of stuff about Dean's shortcomings as a candidate, and it's important to get that stuff out now so that we have all the facts and can make the best, most sober judgement going into the primaries and into the general election if need be. At the same time though, I really feel like it's not possible to say definitively who our strongest candidates are to go up against Bush. A lot of things are going to come up between now and the general election that none of us here can anticipate, and whose effect none of us can predict. You never know.

The one thing I feel fairly certain about is that whichever candidate we nominate, he or she is going to have the same major problem as any other, which is party affiliation. It is simply not fashionable to be a Democrat right now, and I'm not sold on any of the candidates as the definitive one to overcome that bias. So while I can understand the concerns that a Dean candidacy poses (and there are admittedly quite a few) none of his flaws will be as stigmatizing in the general election as the simple fact that he's a Democrat. To me, that's the main issue that we face, and any candidate who has the ability to make people look past that is going to be our best bet.

Sorry for the rambling message. To summarize: I have no idea what's going to happen, and I believe that anyone who thinks they know what's going to happen doesn't have all the facts.

Thank you.

[Eloriel]

62. Here's one I really appreciate

Nov. 5
http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research110503-2.htm

Starts right off with a quote from Kerry:

DEAN: DO AS I DO, NOT AS I SAY!
Flush With Cash, Dean Abandons Commitment To Public Financing
____________________________________________________________

"'Before he was so flush with cash, Howard Dean was an ardent and passionate supporter of the matching-fund system,' said Jim Jordan, manager of Kerry's campaign. 'Now that his situation has changed, of course, so have his views on that system. More flip-flops, more politics of convenience, more politics as usual.'" (Mark Z. Barabak, "Dean Taking Poll On Funding Question," Los Angeles Times, 11/5/03

Well done, John.

Eloriel

[seventhson]

13. Rove's spin on this: MAKE IT LOOK like they don't like Clark or Kerry

to try to make SOME people believe they really oppose Clark and Kerry.

I personally and honestly beliueve that if Bush loses the RNC WANT Kerry or Clark elected as they will most cater to the military industrial status quo.

Frankly, I don't think they know WHAT to make of Dean.

But Rove is famous for the reverse handoff-- attack Clark and Kerry to make them LOOK like the RNC fears them to bolster their support with libs.

Blackops in its purest form and straight from Machiavelli's "The Prince": howl long and hard about how ecil your opponent is when you are secretly financing/supporting him.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. RNC Blasts Kerry For Opposing The Military-Industrial Complex

SEN. KERRY’S DEFENSE STRATEGY:
CUT CRITICAL WEAPONS SYSTEMS

In 1996, Introduced Bill To Slash Defense Department Funding By $6.5 Billion. Kerry’s bill had no co-sponsors and never came to a floor vote.

In 1995, Voted To Freeze Defense Spending For 7 Years, Slashing Over $34 Billion From Defense. Only 27 other Senators voted with Kerry.

Fiscal 1996 Budget Resolution – Defense Freeze. “Harkin, D-Iowa, amendment to freeze defense spending for the next seven years and transfer the $34.8 billion in savings to education and job training.”

In 1993, Introduced Plan To Cut Numerous Defense Programs, Including:

Cut the number of Navy submarines and their crews

Reduce the number of light infantry units in the Army down to one

Reduce tactical fighter wings in the Air Force

Terminate the Navy’s coastal mine-hunting ship program

Has Voted Repeatedly To Cut Defense Spending, Including:

In 1993, Voted Against Increased Defense Spending For Military Pay Raise. Kerry voted to kill an increase in military pay over five years.

In 1992, Voted To Cut $6 Billion From Defense. Republicans and Democrats successfully blocked the attempt to cut defense spending.

In 1991, Voted To Slash Over $3 Billion From Defense, Shift Money To Social Programs. Only 27 Senators joined Kerry in voting for the defense cut.

In 1991, Voted To Cut Defense Spending By 2%. Only 21 other Senators voted with Kerry, and the defense cut was defeated.

Has Voted Repeatedly To Cut Or Eliminate Funding For B-2 Stealth Bomber.

Has Voted Repeatedly Against Missile Defense.

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research071803.htm

<>

[Donna Zen]

90. And when asked where Clark would cut the budget

He replied: I'd start with the budget I know best, the Pentagon budget. I like to call it "the make want" budget.

[blm]

23. Yeah, I wonder why the Skull and Bones media push Dean.

I wonder why the media has been treating Kerry the way they did Gore, yet treat Dean the way they did Bush.

[annxburns]

24. There is a lot of delusion on this site ....

.. about how Bush is toast. That this is going to be a cake walk. Here is a little reality ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20936-2003Nov29.html

I am not sure Kerry or Clark is the best candidate. I don't know. Kerry seems aloof and Clark could be way too new to the game. Gept and Edwards seem like attractive candidates but they are getting little attention.

But if the Democrats elect a governor from a small, northeastern state who signed a civil union bill, who is advocating raising taxes, and who is stridently anti-war, and who has no national security experience, then the Democrats deserve what they get - and it won't be the White House in 2004.

[Eloriel]

60. Yeah, if the Dems nominate a governor from a small,

northeastern state who balanced the budget and whose state is therefore in much better shape now than 49 other states, who delivered healthcare to all under 18 and prescription drugs to seniors up to 150% of poverty level, who instituted a program that cut child abuse by 43% and child sexual abuse by 70%, who was smart enough to oppose this wrong-headed and unnecessary war from the get-go, who is demonstrating what REAL campaign finance reform is all about and excluding special interests all together so he won't owe anyone except The People, who runs on a platform of unity instead of divisiveness and hope instead of fear, who is exciting the base and also bringing new voters into the process by the busloads along with principled and fed up Republicans and Greens and Independents galore -- then we will no doubt win in 2004.

Hell, Al Gore win in 2004 and he had a LOT less going for him, all in all.

Eloriel

[bread_and_roses]

70. Eloriel

I keep reading the references to Dean's "program" that "cut child abuse by 43% and child sexual abuse by 70%" and every time I mean to ask if it refers to the newborn home visit program? Can you give me a cite to find out a bit more about this?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

99. Success for Six

I think that is what you are looking for. Try this link:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

We coupled our success in insuring kids with a new early childhood initiative that we call "Success by Six." As a result, nine out of 10 parents with a newborn baby -- regardless of income -- get a home visit from a community outreach worker who's there to help them with parenting skills and to put those parents in touch with the services they may need or want. Thanks to Success by Six, we've cut our state's child abuse rate nearly in half, and child sexual abuse of kids under 6 is down by 70%.

[Scott Lee]

78. My God, what's next! Dogs and cats....living together!?

:)

[w4rma]

14. Perhaps because the RNC knows that this is how Dean bashers will spin

this? In addition to there being relatively little to smear Dean with.

[Zynx]

16. Also, the argument doesn't hold water thanks to these:

"Dean Seventh In Key Battleground State. A Quinnipiac University poll asked likely Democrat Primary voters who they would support in the primary election:"

"Not Sure" Has Three Times Dean's Support. A Zogby poll asked likely Democrat primary voters who they favored in the primary election:"

"Undecided Closing In On Dean. A Franklin Pierce College poll asked likely New Hampshire Democrat primary voters who they favored in the primary election:"

They are there on their website.

[gristy]

22. I

[DrFunkenstein]

29. Succintly Put

;)

[DrFunkenstein]

27. Anger, Tax Hikes, Gay Marriage, 608,000, Flip-Flops, War Inexperience

Should I keep going on? This guy is a GOP wet dream - McGovern and Mondale wrapped into one burrito.

Plus, they have endless footage of Dean looking like a psychopath:

http://www.gop.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/TLvideo2.htm

[w4rma]

33. And then you go and prove my point. (n/t)

[virtualobserver]

37. he looks to be almost as bad a candidate as Bill Clinton

that draft dodging adulterer from a tiny backwoods state.

He only kicked the Republicans asses twice.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. A "draft dodger" candidate before 9/11 and

a "draft dodger" candidate after 9/11 are two vastly different situations.

[virtualobserver]

53. yeah.....but with the soldiers coming back in body bags.......

war may not be too popular by Nov 2004

[RevolutionStartsNow]

39. Did you miss their section on Kerry (Credibility Gap, Whopper Watch...)

http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research081403-3.htm
http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research071603.htm
http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061903.htm
http://www.rnc.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061203.htm

The only reason that the Dean material is so well researched is that now, surprisingly, they expect to face Dean in 2004.

But they are also prepared for Kerry or any other Dem that gets the nom. Don't kid yourself.

[Scott Lee]

79. Lets give Dr. Funk a hand for that rapid-fire meme regurgitation!

Wahooooo!!! That was so well memorized.

[rocktivity]

19. They won't be so excited

If Clark or Dean get behind EACH OTHER as a running mate.


rocknation

[mikehiggins]

25. Old school thinking

it isn't just the lefties here on DU that are locked into old paradigms (that's my revenge on all the "meme" users around here).

The Bushoids also look at the Bush v Clark scenarios and see the potential for harm they face in having an ersatz "warrior king" confronted by an authentic human being.

But maybe they are wrong? Maybe they really ought to be looking at the Dean thing as something just as new as the Deaniacs think it is. I don't put much credence in Dean as a candidate or as anything new as a politician but maybe, just maybe, this time the numbers of people coming to the process out of the anger he projects WILL turn the tide and make the difference.

My bet is on Clark but if he loses out, and the numbers and polls do seem to suggest that is possible, I'll work like hell to get whoever is nominated elected and who knows? Maybe this time the unwashed masses will be the ones who call the shots, not the rich and powerful.

We'll see, but we also have to remember, all that really matters is putting a stake through the heart of this Vampire administration and freeing the world from its taint.

ABBA!

[RandomUser]

26. Who the Freepers voted for on Vote.com

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=792882

This is the pulse of the pro-Bush crowd, FWIW. Notice how low Clark is on the Freeper polls.

[Donna Zen]

30. Attack the messanger

Thanks Dr. F, we all know that this election hinges on national security issues. Some of us "get" it, some of us are waiting for "it" to get us.

Junior is vulnerable on domestic issues, so they will run on his "junior as the glorious leader" meme. Kerry or Clark can burst his bubble, since they actually have foreign policy experience. Clark especially bothers them because of both his Southern roots, and moreover, his strong attachment to the men and woman of the military. Gen. Shelton may not be voting for him, but at the Clark blog, the people who have served with him and the ordinary soldiers write in all the time.

I would bet the GOP/Rove has done plenty of that in depth, issue by issue, polling that we never see. There are 10,000,000 active duty and vets in this country. That does not include their family and friends. The GOP depend on those votes which are often concentrated in key states.

[killbotfactory]

36. We certainly can't fight the almighty RNC

I guess we should just bend over and lube up to save some time.

The only way we'll win this thing is to look at what the RNC thinks and then do the opposite....

But what if they use reverse psychology?!!?

Shit..

Just face it people, we're screwed.

[FrenchieCat]

38. This is really biting into the heart of the matter......

This is the opinion that many have, and all I can ask is are Dean supporters simply delusional?

the following is not for those faint of heart and is a real eye opener. Those who want to keep their eyes shut and take us all down in the boat...should definitely skip it.

http://thedolphin.typepad.com/dolphin/2003/11/are_dean_democr_1.html

[RevolutionStartsNow]

40. LOL A Clark Supporter's Blog?

That says Dean is a mistake? I am shocked! Shocked! A real eye opener!

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

46. "Too far gone?"

Most of the Clark supporters on this site are very cool, so I'm not sure what's up with you. Why so hostile toward the Dean supporters? It may surprise you to find out that most of us can read, are not 12, and care about the issues. Just like you. No need to be so condescending or insulting.

I read the link, which has to do with the difficulty that any Dem will have winning the Electoral College. And it professes the OPINION that Dean can't turn any of the red states blue, but Clark can. Would you like me to point you to 5 other sites that suggest that Dean is the only one who can hope to do this? Probably you don't, because it would just be opinion. It's all speculation at this point.

[virtualobserver]

41. merely saying that Dean will lose those states......

doesn't really mean anything.

If your guy can't beat this lousy candidate than he must really suck.

[FrenchieCat]

43. Again I say....

Since you made no substantive comments on the contents beside denying a well thought out opinion backed up with common sense facts, it shows that the title is applicable and we may be doomed by Sheer fantasy. As I warned when posting, this was not for the faint at heart nor it appears is for Dean supporters.

[virtualobserver]

47. I didn't see any facts worthy of a substantive comment........

Clinton proved that coming from somewhere other than a "state of consequence" was not a issue for a candidate.

As for the "analysis" of polls, that is equally meaningless.

If a Democrat can't figure out how to beat Dean, then they will be trounced by Bush. Dean had no advantages whatsoever going into this, not in money, or name recognition or anything else.

Dean has earned the frontrunner status with hard work, and if the other candidates can't beat him with their connections and name recognition, then they are the ones suffering from a delusion....that they could actually beat Bush.


edit: typo

[paulk]

49. "if your guy can't beat this lousy candidate"

This has been turning up a lot here on DU, and the logic is specious.

Both parties have, in the past, nominated candidates from the extremes who had no chance in the general election. All it takes is a solid core of support and willingness to blind oneself to electoral realities.

The party needs to nominate someone who appeals not only to the hardcore faithful, but the middle of the road voters who decide national elections in this country.

The article in question makes a reasonable argument that Howard Dean is not that candidate.

[virtualobserver]

51. but Dean is not extreme.......

He is a centrist.

The article makes an argument for following the same losing strategy that the national Democrats have been following for the last couple of elections.

Count me out.

[paulk]

57. He's extreme in that he's running an "outsider" campaign

And his main appeal so far has been to the more leftist and reactionary elements of the party. Right now his major clainm to fame nationally is his anti-war stance. I don't believe his centrism is that well known to the average voter.

[virtualobserver]

58. but that leaves him better positioned to capture the center ...

in the General election.

Liberals are not ignorant of his positions and therefore will not be disillusioned later.

[paulk]

61. if he can make his voice heard above the media din

maybe... It really is going to depend on how the media reacts, but that goes for all the candidates.

And I know a few liberals who are pretty disillusioned with his positions right now.

:)

[virtualobserver]

64. I can understand the disillusionment.

But I am convinced that the Democratic winner cannot come from Washington.

Clark and Dean are the only possible nominees, and I think that it will be Dean.

Independents are so tired of the standard Democratic rhetoric. Unless we have a fresh voice, the next election will be too close to call.

[MessiahRp]

66. I've had this distributed to me...

via e-mail. Look Fox was hammering how Dems don't want Dean as the nominee this morning on their show and while I truly believe Dean will struggle against Bush myself and do believe that Kerry presents the toughest one on one battle, I hate to see all this built in negativity against our candidates one way or another. In 2000, you didn't see the media slam Bush (even though every one was sure the guy was a moron) or McCain like this and in 1996 it's fair to say Bob Dole got a more than fair shake. Its turning out that we are going to get a raw deal no matter who runs. Fucking right-wing media.

[virtualobserver]

67. I like Kerry, although I disgree with some of the things that he has done.

However, I don't like his campaign. A well run campaign is the key to winning any election, especially the general election.

Dean has the only well run campaign in the field. Unless someone else gets it together, it will be Dean vs. Bush.

[_Jumper_]

45. Can we afford to take this risk with all that is at stake in 2004?

"Interestingly, in the latest national and state polls, Clark performs the best of any Democratic candidate against Bush. A mid-November CNN/Time poll, for instance, found that Edwards, Lieberman and Gephardt would all lose to Bush by 13% each if the election were held tomorrow, and Dean by 12%. In contrast, while Clark and Kerry – the two war heroes in the field -- both lose to Bush nationally, the margin of defeat narrows to just 7 points, and most importantly, Bush is kept below the magic 50% number. Meanwhile, the latest state polls show Bush beating Dean badly in Pennsylvania (51%-41%), New Hampshire (52%-39%), and Florida (59%-36%). Even in California, the latest poll shows Bush with a slight edge on Dean (46%-42%). In contrast, General Clark is shown beating Bush in California, while narrowing the gap substantially in Pennsylvania (43%-48%) and New Hampshire (41%-48%) while keeping Bush under 50%. In Florida, Clark does about as badly as Dean, indicating that, at this point at least, the Democrats might as well write off the Sunshine State in 2004. The bottom line: if Dean is the nominee, he’s in big trouble. If the Democrats want to win in 2004, they had better nominate someone like General Clark, or it is going to be another long four years in this country for anyone except Republicans and rich people."

[JNelson6563]

63. speaking of opinions

you laid claim recently that yours re: Dean are based on fact. I inquired as to your sources yet saw no reply. Perhaps you missed it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=788596#788614

This seems to me an excellent opportunity for you to expound on those facts and showcase them for all of DU to see so we can settle this thing once and for all.

Until then you've got only opinion and you know what they say about opinions....

Julie

[PROGRESSIVE1]

56. DAS RNC does not want we Dem's to have a military man...

because we will kick their hineys, BIG TIME!!!

[Duder]

71. Why Rove Fears Dean: He Might Be The 'Democratic Reagan'

November 13, 2003
By Mike Hersh (http://www.mikehersh.com)

According to Republican pollsters Bob Moore and Hans Kaiser:

"The potential for the economy to remain sluggish... and conditions in the Middle East are impossible to predict. Should these situations remain status quo or worsen, America will be looking for someone new... who can shake America out of the doldrums and reinvigorate the body politic. Dean would provide solutions and excitement where the other Democrats... are not as convincing because they don't have the perceived conviction of a Howard Dean."

"A Dean candidacy is a lot more realistic than people think Dean's appeal is closer to Ronald Reagan's than any other Democrat running today.... The Democratic Party used to chuckle about Reagan and his gaffes, which they believed would marginalize him to the far-right dustbin of history. But when his opponents tried to attack him for some of his more outlandish statements, the folks in the middle simply ignored them. Voters... looked to the bigger picture, where they saw a man of conviction who cared about them and had solutions for their problems." source: http://www.moore-info.com

All the top-tier Democratic challengers can beat Bush, but Dean poses the biggest threat. Republicans once hoped Dean would get the nomination to run against Bush. No longer. As Dean continues to gain support and break fund-raising records by drawing on 100,000s of supporters, the Bush brain-trust (Karl Rove) and the pro-Bush media have changed their minds.

Republicans want two things: first, a long and bitter Democratic primary fight leaving the party split and the activists exhausted and second, a weak candidate they can trounce. If Dr. Howard Dean wraps up the nomination early, that would frustrate both Republican aims. The Republicans no longer see Dean as the weakest of the top Democrats.

Continued...

http://australianpolitics.com.au/news/2003/11/03-11-13b.shtml

[bread_and_roses]

73. I find it tempting

to surmise that if Bush does go down, his Corporate Masters would far prefer a President Dean to a President Kerry. Dean gives no indication that he would stand boldly for civil liberties, would challenge the stranglehold the Insurers and Pharmacuticals have on health care, or would challenge the feeding of the Prison-Industrial Complex at the troughs of racism and poverty. Kerry has a progressive record that - while not perfect - does at least pose a shadow of a threat to Corporate Rule. Even Gephardt, with his Union base, probably poses more of a threat. Clark I think is a wild card, which would make them uneasy.

[phirili]

74. This picture of Dean should tell you why

[RevolutionStartsNow]

77. I love that picture

That's exactly how I feel when I watch Faux News.

[Pastiche423]

82. Dean is saying...

get OUT of our house!

I've been saying the same thing for three years.

Sumthin wrong w/dat?

[Scott Lee]

80. And let's take a look here at Kerry....

Yawwwwn. I'm tired. So tired. I don't even want to vote on the Medicare Bill. Why bother.

ZzzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[IndianaGreen]

91. Kerry looks kinda French-looking in that picture...

:crazy:

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[killbotfactory]

81. He's just pointing at Krispy Kremes

"YEAHHH!"

Those get everyone excitied.

[arewethereyet]

83. in a nutshell you're right

but they also realize that he will not be able to unite the party in a way that the others probably could. And nothing like the way Edwards would.

[Scott Lee]

85. Oh and let's not forget Dick Gephardt....

(original cartooned photo on this theme posted at www.gwbush.com, but couldn't find the file anymore. Thanks GWBUSH.COM!)

[quaker bill]

84. Would these be the same rocket scientists that thought Iraq

would be a cakewalk? Seems like it to me. Such brilliant tacticians, no doubt, we should pay close attention. <sarcasm off>

[WillyT]

86. Hell... I'm Excited That Kerry And Clark Are Behind Dean In The Polls

Course, I'm supportin the man. Doesn't make me an RNCer tho, LOL!!!

:hi:

[retyred]

89. Great Post!

The one part of the article you linked to says it all: Vermont -- “West Virginia as made over by Martha Stewart,” as a good friend of mine likes to call it -- may be a lovely place to ski, hike, and sample Ben and Jerry’s ice cream, but with a population about the same as Columbus, Ohio, an economy the size of Knoxville, Tennessee, and no foreign policy interests except for its border with Canada, that Vermont’s simply not a state of any consequence. And, let’s face it, being Governor of Vermont is really the sum total of Howard Dean’s political experience. Not good.

I've given up on trying to show just how un-electable dean really is, his supporters see his anger, his ability to raise money and see what they hope is a winning ticket, there is nothing else there, no sincerity, no honesty, and no integrity. He's latched on to what he feels is his claim to fame by saying he's anti-war but since he had no real vote in the matter along with his support for war under certain criteria is all his claim is...a claim, nothing more/nothing less.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[IndianaGreen]

93. And your solution is to vote for someone that voted FOR the war?

I don't think so!

[blm]

98. Your solution is vote for someone who PRETENDS he wasn't for the war.

.

[IndianaGreen]

101. Al Sharpton is polling ahead of Kerry is SC

The trend in Kerry's numbers is South, and will continue to go South as they have since Wes Clark entered the race.

Forget Dean for a moment!

Compare Kerry's pathetic performance during the Iowa debate to Wes Clark. Why would any rational person choose Kerry, and his worn out resume of past accomplishments, with a candidate as vibrant and forceful as Wes Clark?

Clark did not end Kerry's campaign. Kerry ended his own campaign when he voted for IWR and compounded that error by trying to justify it. Clark merely drove the wooden stake through the corpse of Kerry's campaign.

Kerry can join Kennedy and become an elder liberal statesman in the US Senate. That's where his contribution to this country lies, not in the White House.

[virtualobserver]

102. I am amazed that Kerry supporters have any hope at all.

Maybe Kerry should re-launch his campaign every 2 0r 3 hours just to keep the intensity up.

[Beacho]

97. PFFFFFTTTT!!!!

I think that the RNC jackals are just trying to pull a Briar Rabbit.