Didn't the Berlin wall and the Soviet Union collapse during Bush41's term

[kentuck]

It seems I recall the Soviet Union falling after the Gulf War One? And I thought the Berlin Wall fell during Bush SR's term also? The reason I ask is if this is true, why does Reagan get credit for it? I recall that Reagan said "tear down this wall" and almost like magic it came tumbling down, if you listen to the right wingers. Does anyone have the actual dates on these events?

[DeathvadeR]

1. Whats goes down!!!! Must go up!!!!!

<>

We are getting nowhere

[lcordero]

4. how does that joke go again about the Texan wanting a wall

around Texas the guy from Colorado wishing it to be filled up with water?

[youngred]

2. You're right

it didn't fall until 91. Reagan is credited with spending them to death, and showing a hard hand and standing up to the commies, when in actuality the soviet system was already faltering and the efforts of Gorbachev, movements like Solidarity and even the actions of Pope John Paul II had much more effect than Ray-gun ever did.

[SoCalDem]

6. The funny part is, that with the information boom

that came around the same time, we would not have "needed" to spend them into submission.. It was pretty much proven after the fact that they were a "paper tiger".. If we had had decent undercover people, they would have KNOWN this.. They probably DID know it, but without a huge enemy like the USSR, how would the people of the US have been convinced to send tax dollars to the military manufacturers for all that "war stuff"??

The fact that the wall was in fact coming down was missed =by most people. It came as a surprise.. That alone should have signaled how chaotic things were, and had been for a long time, in the USSR..

Raygun "needed" them as an enemy, and he kept them as an enemy far longer than was necessary..

Information had been leaking into the eastern bloc for years, and the people themselves, had finally had enough.. Their system failed because of the sheer weight of it, and the fact that their people just got sick and tired of it, and said .."No more!"..

Raygun gets credit, becaise the media SAYS he gets credit for it.. When and IF his papers ever leak out and IF they are in tact, we will see that he probably let many opportunities pass and may have actually kept the "cold war" going far longer than it should have been..

Starwars would have been D.O.A. if not for the USSR..
He could not justify gutting social programs if he did not spend all the money on war stuff..

Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but my radar goes off when I recall how "easily/peacefully" the whole USSR empire came undone.. Other than Chechyna, and Yugoslavia..(both with religious undertones), the other formers have transitioned nicely into the modern worlds..

Information was the key.. The outside world could not be kept at bay forever.. China is have the same issues now..

[kentuck]

7. But the way the right-wingers have fantasized this myth into reality....

They are under serious delusions. They need medical help.

[Oilwellian]

9. Hi youngred, nice to see you

I agree with your comment and can also add starvation to the equation due to several years of failed crops. Our intelligence sources knew the Soviet Union was on the brink of falling and this was long before Reagan entered the picture. :hi:

[youngred]

16. hey

:hi:

Nice to see you as well, and you're correct. There were so many inclinations that the USSR was falling and no one here was paying attention. My uncle (a federal lawyer) went to Moscow in 87 and he could see from just being there that the days were numbered.

[Maple]

3. The Berlin wall

was in 1989, and it wasn't Reagans doing.

Presidents had long called for it's removal.

Carter is said to have bogged the USSR down in Afghanistan, making them both unable and unwilling to smack down their satellites.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=317512

[kentuck]

5. So Bush was President ?

Why does he not get the credit?

[Maple]

10. Whyever

would he??

He had nothing to do with it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. To be honest, the process of economically defeating the old Soviet...

...Union began with the formation of the CIA in 1948 and NATO in 1949. Every president fron Truman to Poppy played their part in the constant economic erosion and eventual collapse of the old Soviet Union.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. BIGGER QUESTION: Why did the CIA fail to gather enough intelligence

so we could adequately predict that the U.S.S.R. was going bankrupt? Or possibly, they knew all along and allowed the Republicans to cherry pick through another P.R. stunt. And is it a co-inky dinky that the U.S.A. is now going bankrupt when Republicans are once again in power?

[Lefty48197]

12. Lech Walesa and the Pope brought down that wall

Walesa had been in and out of jail for 20 years for leading anti-government dissident groups. The Pope told the Soviets that their tanks would have to crush him first, if they were going to crush the movement in Poland. Every President since that wall had been built also told the Soviet leader to tear it down. Reagan only gets credit because his lame-brained supporters are trying to give him credit for SOEMTHING. Unlike Walesa and thousands of others, Reagan never put his life, or even his skin on the line. It's sickening to listen to right wingers try to give him credit. Sickening.
BTW, it fell between Nov 9-11, 1989.

[SheilaT]

13. I've long believed that the real

reason for the collapse of Communism in the end was that it was impossible to keep out substantive news about the rest of the world. They were hearing and watching all sorts of shows from the West, and the grim reality of Communism simply couldn't overcome that.

Yes, Reagan's military budgets helped force them to spend more on their own military than they could sustain, but those very budgets also set the stage for the economic conditions we're living in now. He also believed that if you cut taxes for the very rich that the money would "trickle down" to the little guy. He was wrong then, and Bush is wrong now.

[kentuck]

15. I recall that the CIA reported that the Soviets did not spend more....

on defense. Their spending was at the same levels. We increased our spending dramatically but it did not cause the Soviets to spend like crazy, but they still could not keep their Union together. So that is a right wing fallacy that Reagan caused them to spend more than they could afford so they went broke...The point is they couldn't afford what they were paying under Nixon or Carter either. It is a fantasy of the right.

[arewethereyet]

17. they did not spend more

but they were unable to maintain the spending levels that they had. they did not plan to have to stay beefed up so long.

[Sallyrat]

14. Only repukes gives Reagan the credit for everything

Do you recall the embargo that Pres. Carter placed against the USSR because of the Olympics killing....anyone recall this......they could not buy our 'cheap wheat', thus aiding their soon downfall in their economy. I worked with a CPA that also owned a huge farm, she was furious with Carter for the embargo (she was also repuke). It was all right to sell them cheap wheat while at the same time having to spend all that money on defense because of their threat to us....kinda like feeding the bear and having to spend mega bucks to protect ourselves from that same bear.....I will always believe that this was the beginning of the end for the USSR when the embargo was set in place during Jimmy Carter's reign....course he doesn't ever get the credit he really deserves, because he was a democrat.