Tomorrow may be the "tipping point" for DU & the DNC

[Paragon]

tipping point

n. In epidemiology, the concept that small changes will have little or no effect on a system until a critical mass is reached. Then a further small change "tips" the system and a large effect is observed.

While the DLC may predictably go kicking and screaming until the last ballot is counted in the last primary, Gore's endorsement of Dean tomorrow is undeniably huge. (Unless, of course, you want to deny he was our last Presidential candidate and rightful President of the United States. If you want to do that, nothing I say here can help you.)

Regardless of what candidate you support, you knew a time would come when you would have to support whomever the people chose. And this time, the people - not The Powers That Be - have spoken loudly. Love him or hate him, Dean's candidacy has risen the right way - through individual donations, trade unions, the grass roots.

The pessimist in me has a hard time believing The Big Dog will come to the aid of his former VP and bring the DLC along with him -- probably because I've actually read what Al From and the self-titled "New Democrats" have written about Dean. And if those statements are their public face, Lord knows how much they've been steaming about Dean in private.

We'll continue to go through the nomination process. Candidates will slowly fall away, hopefully bringing up issues worth debating on our road to back to the White House. (Personally, I hope Al Sharpton stays in longer than people expect to keep things real and fun.) I'm hoping many will take this opportunity to reevaluate their beliefs and goals, and get ahead of the curve. Nothing would shock Karl Rove more than a sudden, strong display of Democratic party unity.

So, if you'll allow me one more obvious assumption, I say it loud and proud -- DEAN/CLARK 04. The train is coming, folks. You may want to get on board now to get a good seat. Thanks.

[aquart]

1. Would a Clinton endorsement help in any way?

Because I'm pretty sure he will ONLY commit to the chosen candidate and stay out of the process before that. It's what Hillary is doing.

THEN he can work for whomever the candidate is, wherever it will do the most good.

But I notice, he's letting Hillary have the limelight.

You don't want people looking from Dean to Clinton to Dean to Clinton.

Just the height difference will cause injuries.

[alcuno]

2. The Big Dog is the ultimate politician. If he sees that this is what

Democrats want, he'll be there with his support.

Why couldn't this be the plan all along? Dean runs a no holds barred populist campaign, "fighting" the Democratic establishment, and in the end causes them to fold. Sounds like brilliant strategy to me.

[seventhson]

3. Clark on the ticket will mean certain death for Dean

Literally.

Clark is a trojan horse. His army will slay ours if we let him into the camp.

His army is the military-intelligence corporate fascists headed by Bush and Rove.

[Beam Me Up]

5. I wish I believed that was an overstatement.

I don't.

[Sterling]

7. I think you may be right.

I do worry about Clark for those reasons although I am not 100% convinced he is a bad guy.

[seventhson]

14. Thanks guys. Usually my opinions on this issue

are metr with quisling silence.

I remember the assassinations of the Kennedys. I REMEMBER that they were political and in BOTH instances they propelled other democrats into their political positions (the ones held by each of the Kennesy brothers at the time they were murdered).

Ultimately in both cases wall street, the merchants of death, the war profiteers, wall street, the Refascistcans, THEY ultimately won the country and killed hundreds of thousands and bankruptes us, stealing all our hrad earned incoime for their war taxes and oil profits and death machines.

WE can prevent this this time by making SURE the backup dude is NOT BFEE.

Clark is IMHO BFEE.

Kerry is IMHO BFEE

Lieberman is IMHO BFEE

PNAC/DLC/BFEE

we CAB beat them now.

Dean/Edwards!!! Dean/Edwards!!! Dean/Edwards!!!

So Democracy survives. A Doctor to heal the country. A lAWYER TO PUT THE CORPORATE CRIMINALS AWAY FOR LIFE!!!

DEAN and EDWARDS in 2004!!!

[paulk]

69. "quisling silence"???

Usually your opinions on this subject are met with gales of laughter.

And rightfully so...

[bobbieinok]

8. ??????

your opinion

My opinion - Dean has lots of negatives for gneral election
.............Clark MIGHT be able to beat bush with groups who probably not vote for Dean

The religious right is geared up in a major way to scream 24/7 about the 'homosexual agenda' if Dean is the nominee.

The religious right is NOT only in the south, and a fired-up crew MIGHT be the deciding vote in several states outside the south.

[Gloria]

58. As Mike Malloy just said....it's the South and Southwest that Dem

strategists are worried about in terms of Dean. And they're probably justified.

Clark apparently went after PNAC tonight on Hardball. I don't believe he's BFEE.

[Atman]

10. Thank you

I don't know if you mean literally as literally as it sounds.

But I have feared this Trojan Horse aspect for quite some time. I love to hear Clark speak, but it is almost too perfect. I've heard the tales of the RNC actually being a very large contributor to the Dean campaign, because they already have the goods to spring on him during the campaign. Makes sense. I can't figure out why'd they'd need so much campaign money to run what should be a shoe-in for Mr. Big War Time Incumbent.

Clark waited for the RNC to sort out the bugs before he declared, but it was still a sloppy start. His early answers to reporters switched back and forth as headlines broke, and it just wreaks of the way the republicans handle Bush...if he misspeaks, just deny it, or say it doesn't matter what you said. He is a republican to his core, and he found the weakness in the enemy lines and exploited it...he's just planning on sneaking in with the enemy if he has to. I don't doubt it for a moment.

Clark is the GOP's hedged bet. They've covered black and red.

[seventhson]

16. I mean this literally. I fear the BFEE would kill Dean to have Clark OR

Kerry as CIC (POTUS)

[Samantha]

67. so do you also remember that infamous Paul Begala thread you started

when you were somewhat new here. I responded to your premise that Begala was 100 percent behind the Clintons, and as such, diametrically opposed to the running of Gore in 2004 since it would ultimately adversely impact Hillary in 2008. Do you remember that thread? I said I thought the Clintons were backing a 2004 loser against Bush* because obviously Hillary could not take on an incumbent Gore in 2008. In order to run, Bush* would have to win a second term and there must be no salient Dem to oppose her in 2008.

I thought about those remarks often today when I read in the Washington Post an article about Dean, "Dean Crafts Own 'Southern Strategy'" which states, in the seventh paragraph: "Secondly, a large number of influential Democrats, many of them former high-level advisers to President Bill Clinton and state leaders, are growing increasingly concerned that Dean's antiwar, anti-tax-cut campaign could doom the party's chances of winning back the White House and Congress. If Dean can't quickly exhibit an ability and willingness to broaden his appeal, especially in the South, these Democrats may join together in a campaign to stop him, several said." Can you imagine the arrogance?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43916-2003Dec7.html

In my opinion, Gore stepped in and intervened on Dean's behalf. It's an open secret in Washington that Gore and Hillary have had no love lost between them since Clinton's first days. It was obvious to me that the split within the party since the DLC started leaking it didn't want Gore to run, Bill Clinton was greasing Hillary's wheels for 2008. Gore had to have known that. With her increased presence and the growing rumors that should the convention be tied up, a compromise candidate would have to be selected, I think it became even more obvious the influence the Clintons are working behind the scenes. They put their guy Clark in to stop Dean, didn't happen. They resort to overtly stating in the Washington Post no less they might ban together to stop Dean. Gore drew his line in the sand, announcing suddenly he endorses Dean, throwing down the gauntlet and opening up wide for the world to see the division within our party. He endorsed Dean as a signal to the Clintons and the DLC they will not tell the base who its candidate will be. Gore refused to stand silent while they did to Dean what they did to him. He especially could not remain silent inasmuch as it is Dean who has come so close to espousing Gore's own anti-Bush*, anti-war, anti-tax cut positions.

So we all need to make our decisions as to with whom we agree. I personally think it's rather stupid to think any overt stop-Dean movement initiated by the party elite would do anything except serve to split the party and hand the election to Bush* (also, quite coincidentally, a Hillary advantage for 2008).

It's getting very interesting, isn't it?

And I obviously agree it would be unwise for Dean to run with Clark. Dean/Edwards, yes. Dean/Graham, yes. Dean/Rangel, yes, yes, yes.

[seventhson]

70. The same holds true today

I agree 100% and I do agree that the this was an effort by Gore to draw that line in the sand. I doubt the Clintons are stupid enough to cross it. But Bill made some dumbass mistakes, so anything is possible.

Thanks for your support Samantha. The backlash is pretty nasty

[Selwynn]

45. Give me a friggen break -

Source?

[Pastiche423]

54. Well, this is refreshing...

Not being the only two that feel that way.

IMHO, it's been a RW setup from the get-go. Pretend democrats invade democratic boards all over the internet exulting the great general as a liberal.

Uh huh.

What a masterful plan by Rove. Whistle ass against the general, either way they win.

[jumptheshadow]

56. It's a laugh a day from you

Pretend Democrats? Uh huh.....

[Pastiche423]

65. Did you happen to see this thread today?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=849826&mesg_id=849826

Skinner ADMIN (1000+ posts) Mon Dec-08-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message

46. I'm shutting this down.


Our server logs indicate that we've had an influx of new registrations from at least one clark website who logged on to vote in the poll.

I want to say welcome to all of you -- I'm impressed by your enthusiasm.

I hope you'll stick around. But in the future I'd prefer if you avoided freeping our polls.

I have instructed Elad to program a new function so that this will no longer be possible.

[seventhson]

72. Holy Shit - I had a thread or post locked for saying polls were "freeped"

by Clarkers and DAMN if Skinner did not say the same thing.

Good on you Skinner.

My posts had to do with the phenomena that seemed pretty obvious to me -- the influx of clark bars to freep the polls.

SKINNER BUSTED THEM!!!!


I am so vindicated!

Thanks mods and admins

:yourock: :loveya:

[sal]

74. He may not even know he is a tool

Let's get those Bush bastards!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

76. you are naive about the Democratic party

and the military-industrial complex in general.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. At this point, it seems it's either Dean or Clark

Clark is saying all the right things, as is Dean, but when it comes down to it, I have to ask myself, "Do you want a trained killer or a normal, compassionate human being as POTUS?"

And as far as I'm concerned, I'd like to make sure that, between these two, it's Dean.

FUCK BUSH Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Gman]

6. Some people can't stand prosperity

for their candidate and have to bring the evil DLC into the mix. Some people just don't want to accept that Dean has likely cut deals that are making the Democratic Party able to deal with the rogue Dean.

My guess is Dean was told, "You go run your little campaign and we'll sit on the sidelines and watch you fall flat on your ass just like Dukakis and McGovern. We'll just sit it out, wish you good luck, wait until November '08 and win with Hillary. If you want to get elected in November 04 you'd be smart to drop the outsider bullshit and learn how to play ball with the party."

Dean has no doubt made some significant concessions that will likely sit well with the more sensible rest of the party.

Some people will no doubt hit the ceiling when they find out what deals Dean has cut.

[Paragon]

9. "what deals Dean has cut"

Care to enlighten us? Take your tinfoil hat off first, please.

[Gman]

Who knows right now?

But make no mistake, deals have been cut. That's the only way Gore would be doing this. Otherwise the rest of the party was set to watch Dean fall flat on his ass in November 04.

What? Do you think deals don't get cut to get support? There's always a "what's in it for me" factor in politics. That's the way it is. What's in it for Dean is he gets help in November. What's in it for everyone else is they get their issues on the front burner with Dean. They say you run to the left in the primary and the center in November. That's what Dean is doing now except he's already setting up for November to run from the middle. Except a lot of Deanie Boppers are going to be saying Dean "sold out" when he moderates.

[Paragon]

46. You don't.

That's my point. Come back when you've got evidence of such, then we'll debate the insideousness of coalition-building. :eyes:

[Gman]

68. You must be new to politics

those of us that have been around know how its done.

Just don't be too upset with Dean. He's doing what he has to do in November which is an encouraging sign as far as I'm concerned. Don't consider him a sellout.

[Sterling]

13. To me it looks like the DLC is seeing the woriting on the wall

Dean has won without their help. If they do not start backing him soon they will be left in the cold.


I think it is time for Dems to unite behind Dean or at least remember they are attacking the next Democratic President of the US. At what oint will the Dean haters stop? I think the time is close so they need to start emotionally prepairing to back the winner who will not be "their guy".

[KittyWampus]

37. Are You Saying The Mediawhores Haven't Been Talking Up Dean?

and ignoring Clark and Kerry?

[Gman]

44. When the primaries are over, you can probably say Dean 'won'

without "their" help. But you need to remember that all Dean would have won is the right to be on the ballot in November where it really counts. Any George McGovern or Michael Dukakis can win the nomination. But if they don't win in November all they have left to say is, "Yeah, well we won the primaries, dammit."

Dean cannot win without the wholehearted and fully active support of everyone in the party. To think otherwise is folly or just plain stupid. Dean cannot win if the real movers and shakers in the party are just sitting on the sidelines with a front row seat, eating popcorn and watching the inevitable November electoral massacre. And those people will probably feel that Dean as the nominee, while unfortunate, would not mean everything is lost as there's always '08 when Hillary would run and win.

So before you start thinking Dean 'won' and taught the party some kind of lesson, you better think real hard about what it means to 'win' and have little real support from those that make things happen in November.

[Piperay]

11. The people haven't

spoken yet because they haven't even gotten to vote in a single primary. I go through this during every presidential election because of being in CA most of the candidates end up dropping out before we even get to cast a vote. I wish they would have one national primary where everyone voted the same day. :argh:

[kentuck]

12. The DLC will not sit it out....

They will come around. :)

[Lexingtonian]

15. trainwreck ahead

Show me any people of real leadership and a real vision of the future associated with the Dean campaign.

I see all the anger, all the need and greed for power. I see no meaningful moral voice, no figure of compelling integrity associated with the Dean campaign. (In fact, that would prove to be a problem given the principle-lacking way the operation works.)

I do see the opportunist set and retrogressives bailing out from the supposed 'sure thing' and supposed don't-rock-the-boat campaigns and going over to Dean. What exactly is 20 NYC politicians going over at once other than exactly what the Deanies here pretend it isn't- the worst of the old establishmentarian set joining up?

As for your medical analogy, here's a better one: the Dean phenomenon is the last and most violent stage of the disease, not the cure.

[seventhson]

17. UMM - the train wreck is Clark and Kerry.

Gore is a man of integrity, real leadership and real vision.

I can see him as UN ambassador!!!

I knew the hate Gore folks would rise from their gnarly graves like terminator fembots.

[Lexingtonian]

19. Oh, sure

That's why people like you did all you could in 2000, especially November, right?

Please explain how Gore is 'real leadership' and 'real vision' when Clinton so easily eclipses him. As for 'integrity', please explain Bill Bradley's outrage at Gore during the primaries that year. The pundits were surprised at his concession speech and everyone said that if he had actually run on what he said on December 12, 2000, he would have won outright. Yes, maybe he'll do OK at the UN- not that I care. But in 2000 he didn't convince many people of being the best man- and only barely a plurality as the better one.

No, I don't hate him. He's simply a man who ran on a platform in 2000 almost identical to the one he ran on in Tennessee in 1986. He got beaten, if not at the ballot box then to the punch, by a man who ran on a platform that won him Texas in 1996.

Btw, Dean runs much as he ran in 1992 (and would have lost that if Clinton hadn't given him coattails).

[seventhson]

22. Karl? Karl? is that you?

I KNEW that sounded like you.

[Lexingtonian]

26. Nope

Just Sanity, checking on how you've been doing while I've been away.

:-)

[seventhson]

29. Your sanity was AWAY???

That explains things

[Paragon]

18. Wow

And the anaethema to all this evil you're supporting is...?

[Lexingtonian]

20. an actual liberal

:D

[Paragon]

21. Hmmm...

...the one who used to be pro-life? :D

[Lexingtonian]

28. and your point is....?

:shrug:

[Sterling]

31. ? Was Clinton a real liberal?

In your opinion.

[DrFunkenstein]

23. Regarding Dean Rising The Right Way

I'd say that Dean rose on the back of the IWR. Those grassroots supporters didn't just materialize, and they didn't just decide they wanted a pissed off centrist from Vermont. It's not like Dean rose on the quality of his policies.

[seventhson]

24. OHHHH! And his policy opposing the war isn't GOOD enough for you?

Or his health care for Vermonters?

Or his education programs?

Or his civil unions?

Gimme a break, Funkieman.

If Kerry had OPPOSED Bush, then he might have given Dean a race on POLICY, my man

[Larkspur]

34. Dean rose on the quality of his leadership

Leadership means to have a vision and be able to inspire others to share your vision.

Dean listen to what the Democratic rank and file were saying about their own Party's leadership as well as Bush's and he developed a plan to address it. The other canidates ignored the Dem rank and file and like philanders, went chasing after Repukes and swing voters before the general election.

[onecitizen]

25. Good post Paragon.........

I think most will come around in time (don't think it's quite time for some yet). I also think Clinton will be on board next year. (early). Cause I think he'll look back at his own campaign in 1992 and remember how it was for him. I echo, say it loud and proud----Dean/Clark 04!

[seventhson]

27. I repeat, Clark will be poison for Dean

Literally.

[Paragon]

30. Heard you the first time

Thanks.

[deminflorida]

48. There will be no tipping point until after the voters decide.....

Period.

[TheDonkey]

32. The "people" haven't said anything loudly!?! I think you wanted to say

the "person" being Al Gore. It's an endorsement. We will see how much news coverage it recieves (remember how much Clinton's quasi-endorsment of Clark, me neither), and how much people really care.

I believe Gore is still highly liked but he can't swing elections, he couldn't in California and it seems in San Francisco.

[Paragon]

33. I was referring to...

...his fundraising, rise in the polls, union endorsements, MeetUps, etc.

Surely you see this.

[janx]

35. Two questions:

1. You mention the DNC in the subject heading and refer to the DLC, a very separate entity, in the body of your message. This is probably just a typo, yes?

2. I've read the moronic statements from From and the DLC about Dean, but what makes you think that Clinton would support such nonsense? I know that the DLC thinks they "made" Clinton. My opinion of them at this point is that they have too much power and are nothing but rich party insiders in D.C. who are currently completely disinterested in democracy. But can we assume that just because some kingpins of the DLC don't like Dean, Clinton doesn't like him either? I don't know that that necessarily follows.

There have been actual memos from the DLC online, but there has also been a heck of a lot of gossip concerning the relationships between the DNC, the DLC, the Clintons, and certain candidates. (And much of this gossip has been heavily fueled by the Republicans.)

[KittyWampus]

36. The "Right Way"? With Seed Money From the Koch Brothers?

And spending the last year of his Governership getting ready to run for Prez?

So what exactly do you mean by "Right Way"?

Look, there's only about 18% supporting Dean right now and that's with the mediawhores giving him as much name recognition as possible...

So this business about the people having spoken is bullshit... not one primary has taken place yet.

This is perilously close to "Dean already had the nomination so get over it."

I've read several different Dean supporters here on DU say that.

It is getting slowly to the point where I might not be able to even vote for Dean if he gets the nomination.

[seventhson]

38. THAT IS EXACTLY what I would expect

a Clark voter to say

Anybody but Dean. Funkenheim is saying it about Kerry too.

THIS is what makes me so sad about at DU.

TRUE underground democrats do NOT say anybody buit Dean. Dean has done NOTHING to deserve such reporoach and hostility.

Clark and Kerry on the other hand have histories of voting for and supporting Bush and/or his war.

[Paragon]

39. "It is getting slowly to the point where I might not be able..."

"...to even vote for Dean if he gets the nomination."

So your option will be..?

[5thGenDemocrat]

41. Well, one option (theoretically) would be to not vote at all

Won't be for me -- I'm with the ABB crowd, and intend to vote for anybody besides Bush.
John
Heck, you Deanies apparently have this all locked up -- why would you possibly care who I'm going to vote for?

[DemBones DemBones]

52. An option being considered by some Dems. Another

option is Nader, who may very well decide to run if Dean is the nominee.
Every "Resistance is impossible, Dean will be the nominee" thread is loved by Deanies -- and pushes others further away.

[5thGenDemocrat]

60. DB DB

I've voted Dem since Carter in 1976.
I'd probably vote for Dean should he be the nominee. I won't contribute to his campaign, I won't talk him up to my friends nor try to dissuade others who see the general election and the various candidates differently.
I'll vote and I'll vote D. That's it.
John
The Deanies Have the Power. They don't want or need troglodytes like me.

[Mountainman]

40. Bull hockey! Wake up from your delusions!

Gore's endorsement means very little unless you think Gore rules the world which he doesn't

I predict that Clark will continue to go on way past Dean to win the nomination.

You read it here first!

[many a good man]

42. Control of the Party

I see this as nothing less than a battle for control over the soul and future of the Democratic party. Gore has clearly broken from the pro-corporate money grubbing appeasers and sees Dean as the one to vindicate his decision. Even if Dean isn't truly part of the Wellstone democratic wing of the Democratic party, he's laying the groundwork for its ascendancy.

I like Clark a lot but feel he is in with Clinton and like Clinton leans toward the DLC for more than just practical reasons. However Clark is clearly NOT NOT NOT part of the neocon branch of the BFEE. He's pure establishment internationalist like every preesident the last 60 years. And thats still WAY better than what we have right now.

[janx]

50. Can you answer the questions I posted in #35?

?

I am wondering where some of these ideas come from.

[many a good man]

61. Deep in the heart of Clinton

I was referring to the DLC, but they've had the biggest influence the last 10 years on the DNC so there's not a whole lot of difference. Their long string of close losses make their position on top very tenuous. I think Gore resents going against his own instincts and taking too much advice from them.

I think Clinton's heart was always in the right place but had to compromise too much to get scraps. I think he trusted the smart guys like Rubin too much hoping they knew what they were doing. It worked in the short run but the long term effects of things like deregulation and WTO have had serious long term consequences.

I think Gore has let the true blue liberal in him come to the surface and I wouldn't be surprised if Clinton does too. I don't really buy much of this conspiracy stuff floating around; but I believe there is an "establishment" that politicians have to answer to. They are the masters and everyone has to play on their game board. It takes wisdom, intelligence, cunning and popular support to be able to make any real change.

[janx]

64. Well thank God someone is thinking. The DLC is not an

official organ of the Democratic party. They're power brokers, but if they don't serve us well, why cowtow to them?

I want to start a thread about this, because I think Democrats are being divided by a lot of right wingnut gossip right now, and it doesn't help anyone.

What do you think?

[many a good man]

43. Control of the Party

:dem:

[1a2b3c]

47. What did i miss?

Gore endorsed Dean?

[welshTerrier2]

49. a sudden, strong display of Democratic party unity ???

i've been mulling over the following thoughts since I heard about "THE" endorsement ... and let me emphasize right up front that I sincerely hope I'm wrong ...

Here's the deal ...

Al Gore decided not to run ... why? we were told that it would hurt democrats to "rehash" the 2000 election ... to me, that reasoning sounds like total gibberish ... if you believe in your mission, you don't quit ... you certainly don't quit so early ... it just never made any sense to me ...

so, if Gore's published reason for dropping out was baloney, what was the real reason ?? it had to be that "the party" told him not to run and that if he did, he would not have their support ... and who was this party? it seems pretty clear that it was none other than big bill himself ...

Gore was asked to step aside ...

And then we get Wes Clark jumping into the race ... not just jumping in all on his own but as part of a draft clark movement ... and so, mr. arkansas is in ... arkansas ... didn't we once have a president from there? and it seems like the Clintons have been very positive about Clark ...

the sad, tragic really, question is: is gore's endorsement a sign of party unity or is it a sign of a rift between the clintons and al gore? please, someone show me why this scenario seems unlikely ... because we really do need greater party unity than we currently have ...

[JPJones]

63. It's the latter

I don't think you can discount that this is Gore versus Clinton and the DLC. I'm guessing that a lot of powerful people are pissed at Gore right now. I only wish I could hear their conversations tonight.

[KoKo]

51. Kucinich is one that I hope stays in. We owe alot to him, and shouldn't

forget him. Much as I love Sharpton's Flamboyancy, Kucinich pointed out all the things the Dem Party should be focused on, also.

He's still there, and running. Let us NOT FORGET what he's brought to the discussion which has had "spill over" into Dean's Campaign.

[DemBones DemBones]

55. It is still possible to VOTE for Kucinich in your primary, to send him

money, to work for his campaign. I urge everyone who believes in Kucinich's platform to vote for him. If you vote for someone in the primary who is less than what you want, you are sending a message to the party that it can give you less than you want.

[GreenArrow]

62. Kucinich is the only candidate running

who's worth a shit. Period.

[KoKo]

75. I think his voice was powerful in ways we don't know yet. Even if he

doesn't make it. He Moseley-Braun and even Sharpton, did much to "Frame" the issues against Bush. The others only "nipped, halfheartedly." Dean owes much to them in many ways. Their honing the issues into "common folk speak" and his was of expressing it and grassroots network were something the pollsters/pundits will have to deal with for years to come. Just my opinion.

[KoKo]

73. I've given Dean Money Once, and Kucinich twice, trying to keep him in...

Not that my little "postage stamp" money counts like Soros...but it was just to support in the way I could.

[ACK]

53. I will say this every time I see a Dean posting like this

I like his fighting spirit. I like the fact his campaign is grassroots in the way potential candidates dream about before they go into politics. I like his sense of humor and the fact he talks a straight game.

Still, I can't get away from the fact he is going to be nailed to the cross of those freaking stupid tax cuts.

Yes, the middle and lower economic groups of this country were helped very little by the tax cuts but that is the very reason to keep them. They only accounted for what 1% of the damn cuts. Why not keep them?

Geez, is it worth four more years of Bush?

Don't think that one issue can't sink a candidacy. We as Dems ought to realize this more than anyway.

[Gloria]

57. Hasn't Clark already said he won't take the VP spot?? I'm pretty

sure I heard him say this during an interview.....

[AnnitaR]

77. Yep, he said it "wasn't in the cards".

The General has no desire to be anything but the President of the United States of America!

I intend to keep fighting to make sure that happens for him!

[DrBB]

59. No votes yet. Gore = Da Peeple? Huh?

I'm sorry, but wha? "The people have spoken"? I wasn't aware that a single ballot had been cast yet, even in the primaries. I have limited respect for Gore, DLC candidate that he was in 2000, Endorsements are all very well, but could we at least have one genuine primary before the media-designated-candidate gets to crow triumphantly?

[bread_and_roses]

66. Dean's record suggests that Our Corporate Masters

won't be much threatened by his policies, so if Bush is going down, I find it hard to believe they are overly-worried about a Dean as President.

As for the people, no, they havn't spoken yet, no one has voted. And I don't know about the rest of you, but out here in the real world I live in hardly anyone has spent more than ten minutes thinking about the Dem primaries.

I admire Dean's campaign; I would not mind a Dean presidency if I saw any indication that he would find himself holding a tiger by the tail in the legions of supporters...should those legions actually materialize. Instead, I see his current supporters justifying the opting out of campaign finance and backing up a tax plan that is patently unfair to the working classes and the poor.

And - not that anyone should care but I have to say it - I find it highly objectionable that people who challenge Dean's stances are repeatedly called "Rove" or accused of in some way working for the Republicans. This is supposed to be a democracy, no? We have an obligation to argue against policies/candidates we find objectionable and for policies/candidates we think are more in line with our own values and positions. We will not forward democracy by turning into lock-step little Party soldiers like the Republicans.

[incapsulated]

71. Sorry, I'm not getting on the Dean Train

Because I know what the last stop is:

Vermont!

I'm interested in D.C., myself. :smoke:

[LuminousX]

78. Where did all these Gorehaters come from?