Gephardt Demands Dean Release Records

[quinnox]

ROCK HILL, S.C. - Democratic presidential candidate Dick Gephardt demanded Saturday that front-runner Howard Dean release records of meetings and phone calls about tax breaks given to corporate villain Enron, which Dean denies he did.

Visiting with local Democrats in this town near the North Carolina border, Gephardt alleged that Dean, while Vermont's governor, "met regularly with the corporate chiefs who benefited from the tax windfall he created for them. A chief beneficiary of his tax cuts for corporate special interests was Enron."

Dean has faced questions about corporate tax breaks enacted during his 11 years as governor. Enron set up a special insurance subsidiary in Vermont in 1994, a year after the Dean-supported tax break to the insurance industry went into effect.

Dean insists he never gave tax breaks to Enron, the Houston energy-trading company whose 2001 bankruptcy cost thousands of employees their retirement accounts.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=694&e=1&u=/ap/20031213/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_2004

And here is a seperate statement from Gep - "I am confident Howard Dean won't hesitate to share these records with the media and stop hiding behind executive privilege when it comes to his dealings with Enron."

— Dick Gephardt

Come on Dean, you would move up a notch in my book if you release these records.

The Bush doctrine of secrecy has no place in the Democratic platform, Dems are better than Bush.

[Tinoire]

1. So do I as a Dem

Just not buying anything sight unseen anymore.

If/when Judicial Watch wins its suit to have Dean's records unsealed, Dean may end up finished and exposed as a fraud. I just pray that happens in enough time before the Primaries so that people can make an informed choice. If he turns out ok, then GOOD for Dean and GOOD for the Democratic Party because of all the support he has but, if he comes out as an opportunist hypocrite- then we can KISS THIS ELECTION good-bye and welcome to 4 more years of Bush. Partisanship be damned because it may very well damn us all.


Neo-cons
vs
Centrists
vs
Progressives
vs
Corporations
vs
sincere, confused people, who don't have a clue about what's really going on

[quinnox]

8. I agree

It's important to find out the truth.

If Dean has nothing to hide, he should release these records.

I am sure he has done nothing wrong, so why not release them.

[Raya]

38. Dean uses Bush 9/11 Tactic of DELAY VIA PROCESS

As far as I can see Dean’s “Let a judge decide” is a slick maneuver to make sure that nothing gets out till after the primaries.

Vermont papers say “it will be months” before anything can be done through the courts. This really stinks. Bush has been doing the same thing with 9/11 papers for the last 6 months.

IS THIS FAIR TO US?

I am old enough to know this is just like Nixon. Making some pompous statement in public, while behind closed doors scheming and sneering about the dumb voters.

All the rumors say that the papers will show a Howard Dean that did all kinds of deals with Big Business lobbyists and pretty much put the knife to liberals whenever he could.

UNTIL DEAN OPENS THE RECORD, I HAVE TO BELIEVE HE IS DIRTY.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57807-2003Dec11.html

[IndianaGreen]

76. "All the rumors say..."

Rumor mongering begins with the prowar faction of the Democratic Party... Guess what, the records of every governor are sealed routinely, and some of those governors are Democrats from the Midwest.

How about Bush's 9/11 records, or Cheney's energy taskforce records?

Why aren't they demanding those records? Or are they too gun shy when it comes to Bush?

[stickdog]

57. If Dean is more moderate than the media has portrayed, that hurts Dems

in the general election how?

[AntiCoup2K4]

2. Dickless Gephardt is really reaching here

Who knew Enron was the spawn of Satan in 1994. Hardly relevant to what happenned 7 years later, let alone to the campaign.

[AP]

11. I knew that Enron was tight with Bush from very early on. I can't remember

when. But anyone with any sense knew. Ken Lay was tight with Bush I.

[TorchTheWitch]

14. just to clarify

The article only states that 1994 was the year that the the special insurance subsidiary was first set up, not that there were no more dealings with Enron in the years after that.

Dean has faced questions about corporate tax breaks enacted during his 11 years as governor. Enron set up a special insurance subsidiary in Vermont in 1994, a year after the Dean-supported tax break to the insurance industry went into effect.

[stickdog]

59. OH MY GOD! The Governor of the very progressive state of Vermont

used STATE CORPORATE TAX BREAKS in an attempt to compete for business with other states!

How dare he!

[TorchTheWitch]

62. ...

and your point is?

[stickdog]

64. That there's no there there. (nt)

[Paxton_Free]

65. To intervene....

I would have to say that you can't fault a governor for wanting to lure business in order to help the economy of his state improve. His priority is to the people.

My question would be.... What's the point to your "what's the point" question.

[KaraokeKarlton]

3. I demand that Gephardt reveal the details of his relationship with

Edward Feighan.

[Don_G]

4. Screw Gephart

He can ask for anything, but it's only fair if he releases his records too and demands Dimbo do the same.

Fair is fair.

[LuminousX]

5. how about demanding Bush put Ken Lay in jail?

[frustrated_lefty]

6. Many of those records were sealed

due to privacy issues. He can't release documents which identify a person as HIV+, for example.

They're digging through the documents, give them a break for god's sake. They have to be read through thoroughly before they can be released. I have no doubt he will make everything publicly available that can be.

[AP]

15. Yes. Kenny Boy admitted he was gay in those letters, so Dean sealed them.

Oops. Typo. It should have read "Lay," not "gay."

[Tinoire]

22. That's not accurate

Under VT's privacy laws, the names of individuals and other personal information would be blacked out.

Dean's foot dragging is not looking good for this.

[SEAburb]

7. Dean needs to stop using this Bushist tactic

Just unseal them and get it over.

[Rose Siding]

9. This issue is in the hands of a neutral third party

...as it should be. The judge will decide and Dean realized that this will remove the taint of any decision he'd make as appearing political.

[Pastiche423]

13. Correct

It is now up to the judge, not Dean.

Next issue?

[AP]

17. Yes. Judges are always impartial and uninfluenced by politics. Sort of...

...like that Houston judge who thought it wouldn't be necessary to freeze Enron assets while the courts looked into Enron's collapse.

This is more than a judicial matter. This is a poltical matter. No matter what the courts say, Democrats are entitled to know whether Dean is Bush-lite when it comes to doing corporations big favors, especially big corporations as economically useless as insurance companies.

[IndianaGreen]

10. How about Bush's records as Texas Governor, Gep?

How silly of me, I forgot what a spineless appeaser Gep was to Bush. The same dickless wonder that stood alongside Bush in the Rose Garden is now trying to pass himself off as something more than the sniveling eunuch he was as House Leader:

President, House Leadership Agree on Iraq Resolution


President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002. White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-7.html

I will also say that I think it would be shameful for any self-respecting Democrat to support any lawsuit instigated by Judicial Watch (Paula Jones lawsuit, and Ron Brown and Vince Foster "assassination").

I am not about to embrace Larry Clayman!

[arcane1]

18. NO SHIT! Attacking Dean for something Bush has done for 3 years???

get a CLUE, Ghep!!

:wtf:

[AP]

19. Gep isn't the one who needs to get a clue on this issue.

[Cha]

34. Correction.....gep is not the Only one

who "needs to get a clue on this issue".

[Demobrat]

12. An impartial judge will look through everything

and decide what gets released. I'm sure Geppy knows that by now. Another desperate ploy.

[Alenne]

16. Gephardt is right

When Bush did it I complained. It would be hypocritical of me to act like it is okay because a Democrat is doing it.

[madfloridian]

20. Dean's statement on this in Fox Interview.

The judge is reviewing them, whatever he says goes. Dean has not even hired a lawyer to fight it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105081,00.html

SNIP..."DEAN: Well, actually, it's a very complicated legal question. And what we're going to do, I suspect, is let the judge take a look at all these documents. We're being -- there is a lawsuit over this from Judicial Watch. And what we think the best thing to do is to let the judge go through every single document and decide for himself what ought to be revealed and what not to be revealed. And I think that's a fair way to do it.

Clearly our campaign can't review the documents, because nobody would believe that we weren't doing something political. So let an independent third party -- and I think the Judicial Watch suit gives us the opportunity to let a judge go through every single document...."

[realFedUp]

21. Maybe Gep didn't get the memo that a judge is reviewing these

The Dem Cabal is playing with matches.

[LuminousX]

24. He got the memo, he prefers to create the image that Dean is hiding

Gephardt is a bastard. Luckily, even if he takes Dean down with this, there is no way he will win.

Once again, the opposition is so focused on this one battle they are unaware of the war around them.

[Cha]

30. dick won't "take Dean down with this"....

dick is farting in the wind.

[AP]

32. People seeking justice wait in line while Dean clogs up courts hoping....

...nothing gets out until after March.

[realFedUp]

35. oh please

blame the court system clogging up on Dean having
a judge review these? Come on, you can do better than
that post.

[AP]

36. Dean defenders make it sound like he's not interfering. However, he

could simply waive privilege and then the whole case would become moot. Because he isn't waiving privilege, he clogs the court with this case.

That's just a fact.

[SahaleArm]

40. Yep, it's not like his campaign will decide which records get unsealed...

should he waive privilege; the state will do that for him.

[Cha]

42. Is that all ya got?

Dean using a judge is "clogging up the court system"?

Sounds like you would complain if your ice cream was too cold.

[Tinoire]

23. What's with the Hillary avatar?

Are you part of the Draft Hillary committee?

[quinnox]

28. No, I am a big fan of hers

But I like three different candidates, Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards.

so rather than pick a favorite I chose to use the Hillary avatar.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Hillary, as well as Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards, all voted for the IWR

I think that illustrates the increasing chasm that fragments the Democratic Party in the same way the Vietnam War did.

I didn't support Hubert Humphrey in 1968, and I won't support another prowar candidate in 2004.

[PSR40004]

25. As a pro Dean person..

So far I'm starting to lean Dean but unless he releases tose records I don't think I can ultimately vote Dean.

[slinkerwink]

26. well, an independent judge is going through those records

and will release them. If the Dean campaign had something really dirty in its records, they wouldn't ask for an independent judge.

[madfloridian]

29. Judge is reviewing them now. In hands of judge.

Maybe you could tell Gephardt about the Fox Interview I posted. If you are concerned about Dean, and you have read the many times on this thread about the judge reviewing them....then I doubt you are really interested.

[AP]

31. If Dean waived executive privilege, court could move on to something more

important.

Dean is clogging up the courts, and burning taxpayer money, and making people with real claims for justice wait while he hopes that documents aren't released and read until after March when the nominee is decided.

[slinkerwink]

43. wow, you're never pleased with anything that Dean does

[madfloridian]

45. But if he did, he would be attacked for something else.

This is just ridiculous.

[AP]

48. He'd be better off getting attacked for something else besides this.

This is not what Democrats are supposed to stand for.

Remeber, Bill Clinton had a reputation for unsealing as much information as possible.

The book "The Pinochet Files" is the product of all the records Clinton unsealed. Clinton waived privilege on so many of his presidential records, Bush had to pass an executive order which would allow him to seal them up.

Hello?

Get attacked for something else...and defend it if you can.

It is simply not a defense to say that you're going to be secretive because you don't want to get attacked.

[LatinManNH]

51. I can't think of anything

more important than someone's right to privacy. Dean, as a medical professional, knows the importance of not revealing personal information of his patients, and as governor, of his private-citizen constituents. Let the independent judge decide.

[stickdog]

60. Why not? What other candidates have released their private memos,

meetings and schedules?

[Cha]

27. Dick is a pariah as far as I'm concerned and I

don't care what he "demands".

[mzmolly]

37. Is he demanding all Governors who legally seal their records do the same?

Nah.

[deutsey]

39. Man, if only Dick was half as tenacious in his demands

on Bush to cooperate with the 9/11 investigations, to come clean on the lies and distortions that "justified" the Iraq invasion, to find what senior administration operative outted Plame, to release Cheney's energy documents, etc. I might even have some respect for Gephardt as a Democratic leader.

[Cha]

41. I guess then it wouldn't be as Self Serving, though,

would it? Good Point!

[mzmolly]

44. Hey I have an idea, maybe he should DEMAND * relase docs related

to 911, as that's a more pressing issue.

[AntiCoup2K4]

49. Nah, he would never do that...

...he knows as well as anyone that his campaign is toast, and he wouldn't want to lose his position as Junior's bitch. :grr:

[TorchTheWitch]

46. This is such BS

This is absolutely a stall tactic. There is no reason why Dean can't request the judge to have the relevant documents in question pulled and released immediately. It's not like all his 11 years of documents are all in one big pile that needs to be pawed through. A specific class of documents was called for, and Dean could have the judge pull them immediately if he WANTED to.

If Dean has no reason to hide the documents in question, then he would be the first one in line calling for their immediate release to clear his name and make those that are making an issue of it look like dorks. This issue is hurting his campaign and Dean knows it, so why the hell is he using the "slow court syndrome" excuse? This dragging of feet coupled with the fact that when Dean was first questioned about the sealed records he is on record as saying there were documents in the sealed records that could be damaging to his campaign. That statement and source has been posted here numerous times... in fact, I saw it again in a thread just yesterday. I wish I had bookmarked one of those threads or I'd post that statement again.

I've had to have sealed records pulled numerous times and it can normally be done in a single DAY. All he has to do is tell the judge he wants to have the documents requested pulled for immediate release. The judge signs whatever relevant document necessary for the clerk to pull them and deliver them to him personally under seal, the clerk spends maybe an hour at most finding them, delivers them to the judge and that's that. Simple. Voluminous documents are filed in an organized fashion for ease of reference, and there's no reason the relevant ones can't be located and delivered in a day or two upon request. There is no need for the judge to paw through every piece of paper Dean put under seal, so there is no reason the requested information can't be released before the votes start coming in. The ONLY reason they can't be released before the polls open is if Dean DOESN'T WANT THEM TO.

I'm appalled that so many Dean supporters are making excuses about this when they know there is a possibility there may be SOME chance, regardless of how slight, that Dean is hiding something damaging. If they truly believed that he's not hiding something dirty they would be DEMANDING that Dean release what was requested immediately so they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there truly is nothing to hide and they can righteously waive them around and gloat that Dean's clean... faith restored, poll numbers go up for Dean, poll numbers go down for the ones making the issue, money pours in... why the HELL are so many Dean supports here not the first ones insisting they want these records released immediately? If there may be a possibility that there's something dirty in my house, I'd want to know immediately because it's MY house. I can't believe that Dean supporters don't want to know before the votes start coming in that their guy was 100% definitely not in bed with Evil Enron!

:wtf:

[quinnox]

54. Great reply!

I agree a thousand percent with everything you said.

[stickdog]

61. Wow! Reading Repuke talking points much? (nt)

[LoneStarDem]

79. This is where the debate is

This is my first active post, so please bear with me...

Post 46 is exactly what this issue is about. There are no clear replies to the points that TTW brings up. Even if we were to stipulate that Gep is a dick, that Kerry eats puppies, etc, and that their requests at this time are self serving at best, hypocritical at worst, that still doesn't address the point of why Gov. Dean hasn't been more proactive in releasing the specifically requested records to the third parties requesting them.

TTW is right. If this was played right (the way I thing it should be) *and* there is nothing damaging in the requested records, this issue would be nothing but gravy for Dean. It would disarm this avenue of attack, allow him to tout transparency in government (something I think we can all agree on), and attack * on the exact same issues. And while I've always found the concept of "Well if you're innocent you should have nothing to hide" to be odious in the context of personal liberties and freedom, this is not a matter of personal privacy but one of government oversight. These sorts of records SHOULD be open. So we can likewise call apon all of the candidates to be open about all of the records that they have control over, which we should (Dean included), but to say that it should be a tit for tat situation, or to just dismiss it as campaign retoric, would be to miss the crux of the problem. I think that some in the Dean camp (not all or even most, mind you) might feel that to do so now would be tantamount to allowing Gep or Kerry to "push them around" on the issue. Because of this they are digging in their heels, trying to make it an issue of hypocracy or "dirty politics". But it's not. Releasing the specified records to the interested third parties is not just a good idea, but the right thing to do. And as a primary voter and as a citizen, I would be interested in seeing what is in them before making my choice in the primaries. And I think other people deserve that oppertunity too.

P.S. With regard to the one line "Republican talking points" response to TTW's well reasoned and fully rational post:

1. That's a crap, emotional, compleatly non-sensical response that does absolutly nothing to address any of the points brought up in the orig. post.

2. Do you actually believe that anyone in the RW would even think of broaching the idea of *LESS* secrecy in government?

[Padraig18]

47. Hey, Dick! Mind if I go through your Congressional records?

What a canard... :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

52. heh

;-)

[Upfront]

50. Gephart Can't Demand Shit.

He is a republican lite but he is getting heavy. What a joke. lol

[burythehatchet]

53. Burythehatchet demands Gephart kiss his ass

[stickdog]

55. OK, and about Bush/Cheney's MUCH LARGER association with Enron?

When was the last time Gep demanded that investigation?

[sujan]

56. I DEMAND SATISFACTION

lol

[littlejoe]

58. What a lame campaign ploy by a man who is desperate

to create any kind of buzz. There is nothing worse than being ignored as a candidate.

[MODemocrat]

63. Hey Gep, why not demand that your president also open his records

If you democrats would go after Bush wish a vengeance like you do your piers, maybe we could get somewhere in this election process.
As a Dean supporter, I'd like to see him produce the records, but I'd
also like to see Bush have to answer some questions about his war, and all the lies he told to justify it.

[lfairban]

74. I think you hit the nail on the head.

My first reaction was why is Gephart attacking another Democratic candidate? So far, the nine have done very well expounding their own agendas and attacking only B*, with the exception of Leiberman. This is not a good thing. B* would like nothing better than to see them tearing each other apart, and Gephart is doing just that. If he or anyone else does a good job, then we can kiss the election goodbye and it's four more years of B*.

If you wanted a purest liberal, you would be backing Dennis anyway.

[Padraig18]

66. I demand a ham sandwich and slice of apple pie, Dickie-poo!

By the way, dick, when may i view your office files?:eyes:

[janx]

67. This has already been addressed. A judge will go through

the records and release those that do not harm innocent people.

But you knew that, didn't you?

[Octafish]

68. Captive Dean and Kenny Boy Lay -- "Overtake Bermuda"

For Dean, 'captive' insurance a Vt. boon

By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff, 12/12/2003

Howard Dean is fond of criticizing politicians who provide tax breaks to "large corporate interests," and one of his favorite campaign lines is a blast at the Bush administration for doling out tax cuts to top executives of Enron Corp.

But during Dean's 11 years as Vermont governor, he enacted tax breaks that attracted to the state a "Who's Who" of corporate America -- including Enron -- to set up insurance businesses. Indeed, Dean said in 2001 that he wanted Vermont to "overtake Bermuda" as the "world's largest" haven for a segment of the insurance industry known as "captives," which refers to firms that help insure their parent companies.

With little notice then -- and barely any mention now in the Democratic presidential campaign -- Dean succeeded in turning Vermont into the kingdom of captives. Vermont has more of these companies than the other 49 states combined. As part of the enticement, Dean led efforts to cut state taxes of such companies, and he helped defeat a Clinton administration effort that would have eliminated $100 million worth of federal tax deductions given to the industry.

CONTINUED...

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/12/for_dean_captive_insurance_a_vt_boon/

Coward and Kenny Boy. Should make for some interesting reading.

[Padraig18]

70. Forbid it Almighty God!

Dean used tax breaks to attract businesses to VT? That kitten-eating, Satan-worshipping, EVIL man. :eyes:

[Octafish]

71. Yes, to the detriment of the rest of the country.

The article describes how the US Treasury was losing about $100 million annually because these companies moved operations to Vermont, which made a fraction of that amount, about $18.5 million. In addition, the states which lost the operations lost workers and their paychecks.

FROM THE ARTICLE...

As a presidential candidate, Dean has attacked Bush for giving tax breaks to "Ken Lay and the boys who ran Enron." But Enron apparently was attracted to Vermont because of the benefits offered under Dean's administration. Dean, who became governor in 1991, cut taxes in 1993 by up to 60 percent on the premiums paid by the parent companies to the captives at the same time he was raising the state sales tax and cutting spending. Dean's tax cuts on captives set off Vermont's boom in that industry.

END OF QUOTE.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/12/for_dean_captive_insurance_a_vt_boon/

Dean's no liberal. Seeing how he puts himself before everybody else, he's not much of a leader. The draft dodger's not much of an American, either.

[Padraig18]

72. Dean wasn't governor of the rest of the country, Octafish.

He did what was right for VT.

[Octafish]

73. That's right. Dean does what's right for himself.

First and foremost, the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker makes sure Howard comes out Number 1. That's how he stayed Governor of Vermont.

[Spirochete]

80. Am I to assume, then

that you voted for Bush in 92, and Dole in 96, as opposed to that "draft dodger" Bill Clinton?

[Walt Starr]

69. Not until Gephardt admits complicity in the attack ad

and pulls out of the race.

[LiberalTexan]

75. Nice to meet you Rep. Gephardt!

Where the HELL have you BEEN these last years in congress when we needed your tough talk and tough action against Shrub? Why is it you roll over for Republicans but not for Democrats? Makes you go "hmmmmmmm"...

[LuminousX]

77. He's too busy schmoozing with Bush to ask Bush about Ken Lay

[PretzelWarrior]

78. I demand to know where Gephardt's eyebrows went.

I'd like to know if he can talk using more than three notes of voice pitch modulation. I'd like to know what plans he has for people other than unionized folks.

Gephardt, you helped lose even more seats in the house. You have much to answer for.