DU women--tell me why are we women are SO unkind to each other?

[davsand]

Maybe I'm odd, I dunno, but WHY are women so awful to work around?

Every job I've ever been in seems to have an element of bitchiness when multiple women are involved. There is an element of competition there that just defies logic. It is always a matter of time before the little comments start and the back biting starts. If it isn't the old "she's not working as hard as I am..." it is the crap about "do you believe what she wore..." It just boggles my mind.

The office I'm in now is one where they actually keep track of who answered the last incoming call and then WAIT for someone else to answer it. It drives me nuts to see it go on. Every change or improvement we've tried is met with hours of bitching and moaning and countless reasons WHY anything new will never work.

Three of the women are fine and the other two are just a huge pain in my ass. Frankly, my temptation is to just shitcan the "problems" and hire new people--but I know that is seriously lacking in compassion.

WHAT motivates these women to act this way??? Do you guys have any clues?

I really do not have a lot of female friends, and it is partly because of this exact thing. I honestly like (in many cases) working with men much much more...

Am I just odd or have you seen it too?


Laura

[agingdem]

1. Because...

women don't understand the "what goes around comes around" premise. Men get that if they attempt to screw someone (business-wise) it's just a matter of time before the screwer becomes the screwee (sp?).

[davsand]

13. That ass you are kickin today...

...may end up being the one you have to kiss someday.

Maybe I got lucky, but many years ago when I was first starting into management, I had an older boss who took me under his wing and mentored me. That little tidbit was one of many that he passed along in our time together.

Laura

[liberalhistorian]

2. Well, I'm almost forty years old and

I not only know exactly what you mean but I have yet to have a female boss I could stand or even tolerate. Feminist that I am, I'd much rather have a male boss and work with men, it's so much better. I don't know why this is. All I know is that I hope I never have another female boss ever again!

[barb162]

41. I have had 2 women bosses and absolutely, positively hated both

one was a screamer and when she was wrong (often) she never apologized and the other wouldn't listen to me but if a man said the exact same thing I said 5 minutes before she would tell him he was brilliant.

[cidliz2004]

3. I agree

Women are catty and backstabbers for the most part. I am a woman so let me state that right up front. I don't like the cattiness or the backstabbing. I don't like discussing recipes and I don't hate another woman because she is "beautiful".

I like straightforward direct communication. I don't like having to communicate differently to men, because if you are to direct and "un" subserviant, you are labeled a "bitch".

Women competed with each other for centuries to "capture" the most successful mate. They have been conditioned to compete on a very personal level. Their looks, were there value and still are in too many cases. Men competed more on a "professional" level. Their "personal" style isn't a factor in determining success.

Women have to break out of this mold that has been in existence for centuries. It is difficult because what other alternative is there? Becoming more like a man, is no answer. Many men are still emotionally handicapped. Unfortunately, I don't have any answers. I just am who I am and because of that I am not accepted with ease by either sex. So I exist on being the independent striving to stick to my own values and letting the people that want to stay in the "archaeic" molds stay there. Hopefully one day (not in my lifetime), things will change and women will realize that they are doing themselves more of a dis service by holding onto the petty bullshit that drives thier lives.

[jdj]

45. I must jump in here and say

that one of the most mind-boggling lessons I have had to learn in the workplace, that defies all stereotypes, it that men are just as bad, if not worse, when it comes to gossip and back-stabbing. And even more painful to learn is the fact that men will run between female co-workers on a job, and tell lies and start drama between them a)just for pure entertainment value, and b)and this is even more sinister, to LOWER THE LEVEL OF PROFESSIONALISM OF THE WOMEN THEY WORK WITH to put these women out of the running for promotions, etc. I hate to yell, but I have seen this SO MANY times, and it is sickening, and it took me well over a decade to fully interpret and internalize acceptance of what I was seeing these men do, because I so deeply had absorbed the stereotype that it was women who gossip and backstab.

We may be no better, but we are certainly no worse.

I find there is always animosity between the women who work to get ahead and the women who flirt to get ahead,(and I've seen enough of these to know legions of them exist) it's like a mutual hate society, the flirters will pull down a worker anyway they can, to the delight of their male fans.

I don't enjoy the groupthink-estrogen-clan on any job, I almost never fit in and women definitely have that "with us or against us" mentality.

[Surf Cowboy]

56. I must say that I've not really seen men creating much drama

in the workplace. Do you work in foodservice or other service arenas? It just doesn't seem to happen much in the professional venue--probably because it would get people fired.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. I have a lot of female friends

and none of them act this way. :shrug:

I think it's an individual thing and not necessarily part and parcel of being female. I have seen men act pretty nasty in the workplace too.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

5. You know what my problem is?

I am female and I SO don't get into high drama. I just don't. The moment a female co-worker starts making a big dramatic stink about what is essentially a small thing, the moment she starts putting all kinds of emotional angles in there that AREN'T THERE, that's when I start to get a serious case of hives and want to hightail it.

I...sniff sniff....I worked so hard on this and I just....sniff sniff...I feel like everyone has just TRAMPLED all over my feelings and I feel so....so.....(sob) INVALIDATED and I don't know how ANY of you could EVER do this to me! I thought you were my friends, I trusted you, I ....

Now keep in mind, the above speech is one I actually HEARD about three months ago and the problem DIDN'T EVEN INVOLVE THE LADY HAVING A HISSY FIT AND BEING A DRAMA QUEEN!!!!!!

Geez. Seriously. I want to slap some people sometimes. It AIN'T ABOUT YOU, BABE! Lay off the dramatics or apply to freaking acting school already!

Can you tell that gets me a bit hot under the collar?

[jdj]

46. Karpman Drama Triangle.

If you ain't on the triangle, you ain't shit.

The three corners are rescuer, victim, persecuter.

It's what fucked up people do INSTEAD of communicate, they go round and round the triangle. (It's so funny you said 'emotional ANGLES' how appropriate). I've found about 80% of people in work situations deal with things on this triangle, instead of actually working things out.

I'll come back on edit with a link you can click on for the Drama Triangle, it is one of the most useful tools I've ever found to explain crazy sick behavior (i can't open up another window right now, it will kill my post).

Here's a link, it was amazing for me when I first saw this how it explained things I could never pin down.

http://www.stepfamily.asn.au/blah/uploads/the_karpman_drama_triangle.pdf

also here's some text from Steven Karpman himself:

PERSECUTOR - "It's All Your Fault"
Sets strict limits unnecessarily.
Blames
Criticizes
Keeps Victim oppressed
Is mobilized by anger
Rgid, authoritative stance
"Critical" Parent

VICTIM - "Poor Me"
Feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed
Looks for a Rescuer that will perpetuate their negative feelings.
If stays in Victim position, will block self from making decisions, solving problems, pleasure and self-understanding.
"Dejected" stance.

RESCUER - "Let Me Help You"
Rescues when really doesn't want to.
Feels guilty if doesn't rescue.
Keeps victim dependent.
Gives permission to fail.
Expects to fail in rescue attempts.
"Marshmallow" Parent

http://www.mental-health-today.com/articles/drama.htm

[Nikia]

6. People often are more competitive with their own gender

Maybe this is because for a large part of human history, there have been separate spheres for men and women. Maybe it is because we are competitive for mates. Heterosexual men compete with other men for women. Heterosexual women compete for men. In the modern workplace and in life, there are many women who compete with other women instead of with men. My male best friend assures me that this is true of men also. This often happens in the social areana also which is why some people are really happy with inter gender platonic friendships as opposed to friendships primarily within their own gender.
I think it effects women more in the workplace since men usually hold higher positions and women are competing more at the bottom, which makes it even harder to rise to the top. Men usually are more competitive as children and often have a more established power structure than women. Their competitiveness is usually more direct rather than mean passive aggressive type. Socially men still often resort to violence or threat of violence. Most women shy away from that and may seem meaner in other ways. These are generalizations of course.
Personally, I am not mean to other women if I am not provoked. I try not to be mean to them anyway even if I am. Women should support each other, not tear each other down.

[TrustingDog]

7. I think that...

it's goes down to primal competitiveness for men from the cave man days. Stupid, but I believe there's something to that.

[Darth_Kitten]

8. Either they are very very good or very very bad.......

I hear what you are saying. Sounds like MY office....there are some really NASTY characters and then there are some of the nicest women I have ever met.

Your anecdote about the call monitoring...OMIGAUSH!!!!!!!! LOL Try to get some of these over-burdened and hard-working (major sarcasm alert) women in my office to pick up a phone! It's a never ending battle. :eyes:

I consider myself a feminist yet I hate how SOME women choose to act when surrounded by other women. I've been on the receiving end of too much sh*t, and I'm fed up. Gossiping, mobbing, you name it, it's SO "high school" yet these women are in their 40's and 50's and should know better??

[BlackVelvetElvis]

9. I hear this from other women too.

And I have experienced it in the workplace. What do the women who are "fine" think of this? It drags morale down.
They need to get out of high school already.
I wonder if they have self-esteem issues.

[acmavm]

10. I really can't answer that question, but I can tell you I spend almost 9

hours five days a week wondering about the same thing.

I work will a bunch of women and four men. I've got absolutely no complaints against the men, they're wonderful to work with. And if you go an extra inch for them, they are extremely appreciative. But the women, oh boy. Not all of them, but a couple are ripe for an ass whuppin'. But none of them will do anything that they don't consider part of their job description, including answering the phone when a customer is on the other end of the phone needed to speak to someone. If it's not in their 'particular area' or part of their job function they apparently just figure screw it. And what's really crazy is that is I work in what some would call a job in the service industry. It't a title company (housing and commercial searches and insurance). The guy on the other end of the phone can just say screw it and easily go somewhere else, and I have a feeling they do. Also, if we're already doing a job for them and they call with a question, if the person from that area isn't around to take the call the other women won't answer the phone to even take a message. So the customer ends up hanging up. They'll remember it though. And they'll go somewhere next time.

This is a very competitive industry. Only the best will make it because I can already see the applications for home loans going south just by how fast the requests for title searches are dropping.

[AngryAmish]

54. In my area title companies mostly hired good looking women

See, the lawyers determine which title company is used. All the title companies are essentially the same and cost the same. So, many attorneys pick who has the best looking women there.

[haele]

11. In my experience -

It's a form of frustrated competition, and much of the "bitchy" mode you see is due to the way women are traditionally trained to deal with confrontation and competition issues. It's passive aggressiveness, because women are supposed to be sweet, kind, diplomatic and non-competitive when they run their homes - which does not translate over well when one has to work outside the home and compete for status and benefits.

When one isn't trained to how to be positively aggressive and confident to get the job done, one reverts to whatever seemed to work in the past when there was a conflict between personal desires and reality.

And if you never learned how to treat yourself and others with an adult sense of respect in the first place, you tend to revert to whatever "daddy and mommy's little girl" did to get what she wanted - or revert to whatever you had to do to survive. In lieu of a positive give and take necessary to develop a proper team effort to get a job done, individuals will become self-centered and self-serving to get ahead of everyone else to become (in their vision) "the most important member of the team".

This "eat your own" activity in terms of competition does not just happen to women on the job, it often happens amongst other minorities when there's a high competition for the limited resources to the work force and low morale.

Much of the problems come from the so-called "management" level - who often profit (short term, at least) when divisions and feelings of low self-worth amongst the labor and lower management levels are encouraged to keep wages and benefits requests down as they fight amongst themselves for any crumb of status or recognition.

Haele

[SharonAnn]

14. Yes, there's a good analysis of this in the classic book

"Men and Women of the corporation" by Rosabeth Moss Kanter. It's about 25-30 years old but describes the behavior of the "powerless" at work. Though it's usually women who are in jobs where they control little and are paid little, it happens to anyone who is in that position.

My opinion is that it's immaturity and insecurity, which we've been trained for. With some of us it didn't take, with others - they got over it, and then are those with whom it did take.

I guess the big thing I have that drives me nuts first in these environments is how you can ask a question and get a dishonest answer. Like working on a project team and people sharing various ideas and suggestions, agreement is finally reached on one after discussion and everybody is polled, and then the comments start after the meeting. "Well I didn't think that was a good idea but what can you do? They decided to do it anyway. Well, it's not going to work and I'm sure not going help it."

[pennylane100]

12. I think that this type of behavior can be found in both men and women.

I have always worked as part of a sales force that was mixed, and the pain-in-the-ass types were also usually represented equally by both sexes.

I find it hard to believe that the people in your workplace are any different, are you sure you are judging them by the same standards.

[SharonAnn]

17. I understand what you're saying, but it could be an example of the

type of job. I've not found this nearly as prevalent in professional organizations, but do find it in more in hourly type organizations.

[davsand]

18. I'm not sure I undestand your question...

Can you clarify it for me? Please?

Laura

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. The only time I had a problem with women

was when I had a woman boss who became jealous because I was better liked by the other workers (all women) and had refused to do the boss's work for her. She concocted false charges against me; I was disgusted and tired so I resigned. Now I work for an all male company. Sometimes they get on my nerves, but I forgive them because they are men and don't know any better....a sexist comment, perhaps, but I mean by that that they don't think the way women think.

[Susang]

16. Perhaps you are only noticing it in the women

I think pettiness and vindictiveness live pretty equally in the hearts of both male and female employees. My experience working with women has been pretty equal to that of working with men. Some minor differences in the manner of conflict resolution, but the same anger and backstabbing is apparent in both genders.

I work next to a male employee who constantly monitors who answered the last general departmental phone page and literally throws a hissy fit if he answers more than what he deems is his fair share. Do I believe that his actions prove that all men are petty jerks and difficult to work with? No, I think it makes him an asshole.

Since you said that three out of the five women are fine, you're actually doing pretty good. If you hired five men rather than women, do you really think that you would have any less problems?

[davsand]

20. I do think that if they were my hires it'd be different.

I have to admit that I'm very concerned that this is an assumed staff and that I've not been able to turn it around in 90 days. Usually, it has been my experience that I can have fairly positive indicators in attitude within the first 60-90 days. With a couple of these people it just ain't happening and THAT is what has me wondering.

I worked for years in the corporate sector and never had a problem with retention of staff or rolling over and acquired one. THIS group, however has been a real challenge.

To be fair to them, however, my predecessor was a neurotic bitch who made her life's work in government service. She did all she could to render staff isolated and powerless and it has amazed hell outta me that these women put up with it. The worst two were under her the longest, and I'm seriously wondering if they are beyond salvation.

I'm wondering if they have BECOME evil women who live to torment the rest of the office.

Laura

[Susang]

26. If their prior boss was toxic

Then that could go far in explaining their behavior. Kind of the same as an abusive parent. I've worked for abusive bosses and their behavior does alter your perspective towards your job. If you think about it, its often that you spend more time with your boss than with your family or friends. If they are abusive and toxic, than how could that not change your behavior in some way?

[jdj]

48. I would bet that these two are her pets.

I don't have a clue as far as advice.

Good luck.

[ant]

19. wait a minute...

I've worked with women who are cliches of the feminine (needy, insecure, overly emotional, catty, etc.) and I've worked with men who are cliches of the masculine ("tough guys," studs, single-minded, etc.) I've also just worked with stupid people, incompetent people, assholes - all those qualities that are found in both genders. In other words, I've worked with people my whole life.

I would like to point out that you are basing your generalization on what you admit is two women in your office, even though three others are perfectly fine. This clear minority sets the standard? Why?

Let's recast the question in terms of race: I worked with a black woman once who was a total pain in the ass. Why are black people so obnoxious?

Such generalizing would never fly on the basis of race - why are we accepting it on the basis of gender?

Since you say this has been a problem everywhere you work, perhaps you should consider examining the common denominator: you. Birds of a feather and all that. (The fact that you don't have many female friends makes me especially suspicious that this is as much about you as it is about them.) In my own experience with these types of people, I've found that their attitudes tend to focus only on those who are willing to play their game, i.e., women like them. Anyone else tends to call them on their shit pretty quickly, and people don't like that.

You are, after all, bitching about them here behind their backs rather than just directly talking to them about the issues you're having. Typical woman thing to do, huh?

[pmbryant]

60. Some very good points here on overgeneralization

But venting here is a perfectly valid course of action. We have no reason to believe that the original poster has not talked to the people she is having problems with.

Your points on overgeneralization are right on the mark, however.

Peter

[Zomby Woof]

21. why is anybody unkind to each other?

And that goes for me, an often unkind sonofabitch.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

22. I haven't experienced that; but...

I have worked in small chamber ensembles with men who could not work with women unless the women took a subordinate role and always deferred to the man's opinion. It drives me nuts when a guy basically poo-poos my idea, then turns around and suggests the same thing.

It's even more annoying when another woman plays along with the game and denigrates my thoughts as inferior to the male viewpoint, regardless of what she really thinks about it. It's as if some women feel it's more important to appear agreeable to a man than to have her voice heard.

For the last few months I've been working with three other women, and it's refreshing to be able to exchange thoughts and disagree without feeling insulted.

[davsand]

23. Some women assume the surrogate "wife" role too.

\Have you ever seen the women who become the caretaker of the group? The assume this ort of Wife or mother role. It just amazes me...

Laura

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. It really is interesting, observing these "roles"

even if they're occasionally annoying.

I'm hoping that having had some really negative experiences with them will make it easier to recognize them in the future, and confront them openly. But I guess that depends upon the willingness of the "roleplayer" to explore new possibilities.

[Nevernose]

35. If those gender roles were reversed

I would take a frigging hostage.

I have worked in small chamber ensembles with men who could not work with women unless the women took a subordinate role and always deferred to the man's opinion. It drives me nuts when a guy basically poo-poos my idea, then turns around and suggests the same thing.

It's even more annoying when another woman plays along with the game and denigrates my thoughts as inferior to the male viewpoint, regardless of what she really thinks about it. It's as if some women feel it's more important to appear agreeable to a man than to have her voice heard.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

36. But who needs gender roles

when you're trying to make music?

The best music I've made has been with people who enter the ensemble with respect for the other musicians...seeking out each other's opinions before they're even offered, to understand the others well enough to create a true ensemble, and not merely 2-8 individuals playing together.

[Senior citizen]

24. In order to survive in a sexist society,

women have to be in a constant state of denial about the thousands of petty ways in which they are condescended to, disregarded, or attacked every day. Most of these things are so subtle that it is impossible to be consciously aware of them anyway. But the subconscious knows and has always known. So, unless it is totally outrageous, women ignore most spoken tones, glances, and policies that undermine their status, but their subconscious has added it all up and directs their attitudes.

I really should write a book about this. Let me give you an example. A woman spends time and money on her appearance and goes to work looking great. At the same time her subconscious knows full well that a man who went to work looking like that wouldn't be taken seriously. But when she isn't taken seriously, she can't blame her appearance, or herself, or her coworkers: she is fulfilling her role, they are fulfilling their roles, and society is still insisting on gender roles. So universe, look out, because SOMEBODY is going to pay!

[Droopy]

25. It's kind of the opposite where I work

I'm a trucker and we've got a few female drivers where I work, but it's predominantly men. I've yet to hear one of one of the female drivers give anyone a hard time. But I've heard several of the male drivers bitch and moan. There's one guy that every time I see him is pissed off about something and is always threatening to quit. I just want to tell him to quit already, but I've got the feeling that he'd be like that where ever he goes.

I think it's more of a people thing than a gender thing. Some people of either sex are just never satisfied. I'd be willing to bet that it's a 50/50 type of deal. It just so happens that you work with more women than men.

[samplegirl]

27. Women are cruel

I would much rather work with men. Women are way to critical.
When you really need advice from a woman...i have found they wont
give. When you dont need advice their full of it.
Even when it comes to friendship I'd much rather have guys.
Matter of fact most of my friendships are guys......they are
more sincere and much more helpful.

[blondeatlast]

28. I work in an office that consists of 5 women and we get along great,

although the newest one is a Bush supporter.

All but one of us is straight, and we even all pal up after work.

Maybe we are the exception, but I doubt it.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

29. Here's my experience

I like working with women and men both, but in a mix. One-gender groups have dynamics that are hard to deal with, whether you're one of that gender or the only one in the group of the other.

I'm very autonomous so I have conflicts with micro-managers, no matter what their gender. But it seems more irritating when the manager is a woman. I feel like she should "get it" since we have gone through the same experiences. I know she's not my friend: managers are not friends, and can't be. But - how do I put this...I kind of expect a man will underestimate me, but not another woman.

When I have managed others I've bent over backwards to support my staff so I have their loyalty. In my experience, women have been more loyal than men. But I have to work harder to make women understand that what I do for them is out of professionalism, not friendship. Men know their managers are not their friends - they're bosses. I've also found that drama queens, slackers, gossips and backstabbers know no gender.

I've had management training that really opened my eyes about dealing not only with subordinates but with superiors. The American Management Association publishes some good books that might help your dealings with your staff. Give them a look-see - they're at http://www.amanet.org/index.htm.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. I had the opposite experience in academia

which can be a real snake pit, and it seems that the more prestigious the institution is, the more vicious the snakes are.

My relations with my women colleagues were wonderful everywhere I taught (5 different colleges). Most of the men were okay, too, but there's a certain type of academic man who knows that he's not supposed to be sexist but is anyway, so he becomes the master of the sneaky putdown, the sneaky bit of sabotage.

There was one in particular at my last job who was initially charming, but who eventually began to seem somehow "off." At a social gathering of women faculty, I heard stories about how he had stabbed several of my female colleagues in the back, smiling innocently all the while.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Lydia, he sounds like my old department chairman

but I know you and I are in different fields. I've heard my former boss blather on interminably, claiming "I am not a sexist," as truthfully as Nixon claimed "I am not a crook."

On the other hand, there are the women who think any criticism of the way they do their jobs is "sexism."

And the Queen Bees.

:eyes: to idiots of either sex!



P.S. Would you believe it? Tucker Carlson just appeared on my television screen (I watched Charlie Rose for the past hour) and then he showed a tape of Nixon saying "I am not a crook"!!! How bizarre is that?!

[barb162]

43. I had a boss who was an ACLU member for many years and

proudly proclaimed it to all. He also prided himself on how liberal he was. After putting up with his blatant sexism, harrassment and discrimination for years I finally filed an EEOC complaint.

[JackDragna]

32. Speaking from a man's perspective..

..women, don't ever change this characteristic about yourselves. Men, if someone insults us, we puff up our chests and act all stupid and macho. The best way to get someone is how women do it: sneakily, coldly and in the most jarring, emotionally-cutting way possible. It's a thing of beauty and one of the big reasons why I love women, among other things. How much better a world this would be if you knew that pissing someone off would cause them to shiv you in the back. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sometime.

Hats off to you, ladies.

[jdj]

49. I guess I'm a failure as a woman, because I suck at this.

I'm in their face at the moment, and then I forget about it. I cannot tell you how many times I've been stabbed in the back and did not see it coming. Sometimes, just out of strategy, too.

[Dastard Stepchild]

34. I've grown to appreciate women more...

after accepting and appreciating that there are all types. While I register as friends those women with characteristics similar to mine, I have been able to develop working relationships with women who are not like me - it's just the effort of finding some shred of commonality and working with that. High drama doesn't bother me because I am not easily riled or threatened. In fact, much to my surprise, I am a tomboyish gal with a very close friend that is high-strung and girly-girl. It's an unlikely match, but we just clicked. I temper her bouts of hysteria, and she encourages a very special woman-to-woman connection and intimacy that only a very warm, welcoming woman could provide. It's kinda cool.

[Wapsie B]

37. I've had crappy bosses, both male and female.

But some of the most toxic personalities I've run across have been women. Their attitudes just poisoned the workplace. What astounds me is the fact that these people were in positions of authority, even if just at the supervisory level. One woman in particular was causing problems in a lab I was applying to. The managers there told me that they had some toxic personalities working on the night shift and one in particular and that they would like the new supervisor to deal with her. This person had been the manager there and was demoted to being a regular staff person. Now one year later I find out this lady is the manager at another facility.

How do these people do it? I was always told that to advance you had to be able to get along with everyone and to have a pleasing and well-balanced personality. That's why I've had the feeling for so long of being held to a different standard than others. If I were to utter a peep of discontent I hear about it. These others are promoted.

More to the point of this thread I think some of these problems are due to wanting as much power and control over others in the workplace as they can get, even if they aren't in a position of authority.

[tigereye]

39. I have always wondered about that

how do these toxic folks get promoted? I myself have had mostly male bosses, and a few females. Most of them were fine, with the exception of the workaholics who expect everyone else to be a woraholic as well.

When I was a manager, I always assumed that I should treat staff the way I would want to be treated, with respect. In my field (community mental health) there are always some female bosses who were unpopular due to their "moodiness," but generally most of the women and men I have worked with were really cool.

[Wapsie B]

40. How do those with toxic personalities get promoted?

My only idea is that they know how to schnooze and interview well enought to get offered jobs with authority. Then after they start their true nature starts coming out. I've heard that same analogy about some managers in the Postal system. Outwardly, to people on the street they appear just wonderful. They say and do all the right things, cozy up to the right people to get ahead. But to their underlings micromanagement and power and control are the words of the day. And then people wonder why a worker snaps and sprays the place with an uzi.

[jdj]

50. They fuck all the right people.

That's my theory.

[Missy Vixen]

61. They're better at convincing the decision maker

>how do these toxic folks get promoted?<

I worked for a woman thirteen years ago that was the worst example I have had in my employment career. By the time she was fired, every woman in her department had spent some time and money in the therapist's office. (Tricia was the master of complimenting you privately, then backstabbing you over the same thing to the executives of the company. This was the least of her tricks.) As a result, I wouldn't work for a woman again. I now own my own business.

There are five women who also are sole proprietors in the building I work in. They are also playing out the games mentioned in previous posts. It's best for me to be polite and cordial, but stay away from them.

Julie

[AgadorSparticus]

38. i've noticed that some women's behavior changes the minute

a man walks into the room. sometimes it is a little slow in the turning and sometimes it's like turning on a dime. i don't think it is done on a conscious level but damn if it isn't annoying as hell. i used to go to work and not wear makeup because i realized if i dressed down, hair tied back, & no makeup, women would be nicer to me.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

42. I don't get along well with women.

I don't play games. I say what I mean. I'm honest. If you ask me if you look ok and you don't, I'm probably going to tell you. If you have something in your teeth, I'm probably going to tell you. And if your husband is a skeezeball skank who likes to hit on women while you're in the same room, I'm going to tell you. This level of maturity and honesty really turns people off. I have like four girl friends because of this. Guys, however love this.
Duckie

[medeak]

44. could write a book

on this one. Have three terrific friends that I vacation with every two months...we love each other and don't judge.

Have office full of women who have worked for me for 10 plus years..they all get along famously.

Then...there is beauty salon I made mistake of starting (actually husband did as had empty rental space...it's all his fault) ...it's the worst case of female bitchiness have ever seen. In fact...when they call with many complaints to my office....my girls and I just laugh as that's all we can do with their temperamental behavior.

Don't know what it is...transient mentality? (constant fighting..quitting..it's unbelievable) diva thing?

All I know is they are all toast...have doctor who wants space next spring and they will have to move (YAY!)

[gardenista]

47. Give the two problems a warning. If they don't shape up, can 'em nt

[angee_is_mad]

51. Competitiveness?

They say men are naturally competitive, but men have nothing on us. I use to work in the beauty industry and if you think you had it bad you have not seen anything.
I could tell you stories that would make your toes curl. No really, I could!!!!

[HEyHEY]

52. The women I work with are very loyal and supportive towards each other

It's a tight group

[miss_kitty]

53. Nordstrom was a horrible place for me to work

Male Big Bosses-Female Lower Management-gack! a back-stabbing slime-fest, IMHO

[Logansquare]

55. I said the same thing to my husband, and he had a totally diff. viewpoint

He said all of his best bosses were female, and his worse bosses and coworkers are male. He works in IT, so that may be the explanation. Women who excel in that field are no doubt exceptional. I work in academia, and had one of the most nightmarish female boss experiences of all time until a few years ago. The mind fucks, the nosiness, the vicious gossip, jealousy, silent treatment, alternating with gushing and present-giving--it was like What Ever Happened to Baby Jane, except that it went down in writing in my annual reviews! Now I have a terrific, fair, consistent female boss, and most of my female coworkers are the same. But I know what you mean--women can be very aggressive in their own way!

[Paradise]

57. unbelievably and unfortunately, i have seen it with some. n/t

[liontamer]

58. because of our society

There are comparitively fewer opportunities for women. This increases the level of competion. Because there are "quotas" (many of them are unstated) women feel that their biggest competion is the one with the women around them (i.e. if there are ten sale jobs and 9 always go to men, that one unofficial female slot is most threatened by other females). Couple this with the lack of female bonding in western society, and you have problems. Women are more aggressive toward women than men (who women are trained to please) and women are more sensitive to aggression from women (many women who say their female bosses are bitches would put up with that and more from male bosses)

[pmbryant]

59. These are two individuals

Please don't generalize your difficulties with two individuals in a specific situation into a problem with women in general. Such workplace stereotypes are extremely harmful, and their persistence is a major reason why working women continue to be mistreated and underpaid far more frequently than men.

--Peter

[NewJeffCT]

62. women tend to be extremely competitive with one another

At least that is what I've found... my wife hates working in an all-female environment, and I have a female co-worker that came from an all female environment, and she hated it, too. My wife complained about the constant gossip, and my co-worker says that women really play favorites among other women. That said, when this woman - let's call her Jane - came aboard our company, I did notice the other woman at her level in our department really treated Jane poorly and showed Jane's experience & work ethic a serious lack of respect, but the same woman did accord me a good amount of respect when I came aboard. The only reason that came to my mind was that Jane was 8-10 years younger and also prettier. I honestly couldn't think of another reason.

However, my experience has been that some of my best bosses have been women.

[pmbryant]

63. How does any of this differ from men?

Men play favorites. Men gossip. Men treat other men poorly for little reason. Men are jealous of other men. And so on.

--Peter

[NewJeffCT]

64. that is true, but

Men do do all of those things, but women tend to single out other women more often than men singling out other men... at least from what I and a few others have noticed. I get the impression that sometimes women think they're singled out by other women just because they are women. I don't think men do that nearly as often in the workplace to other men just because they're men. However, the women singling out other women may just be a self fulfilling prophecy... and I have definitely seen women singled out by men.