I have a patriotism question.

[Raenelle]

I got in a civilized disagreement with my daughter over this. My contention is that I am only conditionally patriotic. I don't support what this country is doing or where it is headed under Chimpy. I am, in fact, very much ashamed to be an American citizen right now. I don't think American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives. I don't want us to "win" now that we're in there. I see us as the bad guys, the invaders, in that war. I think this country is either fascist or very nearly so, and we are a hair's breadth away from losing our democracy, IF it is not already lost.

She said that I WAS patriotic, that my dissent was because I cared so deeply about the country.

That falls under the auspices of definition, of course.

Here's my question--that I think gives the lie to her definition of patriotism. Would you die for this country? Right now. Today.

I would not.

[trotsky]

1. Yes

If this country were invaded, or truly threatened (not just because * and the neocons call it a threat), I'd lay down my life.

[Raenelle]

4. Hypothetically, what is a democratic country invaded us to liberate us?

Say, France or England. Hypothethically, we have clearly become imperialist, shut down the Constitution here, begun jailing groups of people without charges in camps, and are generally a threat to the peace of the world. The democracies have banded together to stop us, then to liberate us from the fascist Regime. Which side, then?

[Lars39]

10. This scenario's been running thru my head, too.

I don't know what I would do. I think human life trumps the state, though.

[trotsky]

12. If that were the case

then the country that I love and serve would have already been destroyed, i.e. nothing left to defend.

But since the aforementioned things HAVEN'T happened (yet - ok, the imperialism thing is pretty strong), I would still defend her.

[Melinda]

2. I would if our country were under attack.

And that's all.

[fob]

3. For this country? Yes

For the ideals that the name America conjures up to me, Yes. Under the auspices of the current government? Never!

[Loonman]

5. Sitting Bull

Sitting Bull didn't hate the white trappers and settlers, and he grudgingly did not pick fights with military units unless they openly trespassed. He harbored no ill will, and just wanted to be left alone.

The one thing that struck him about the "new" Americans was the amount of respect they showed to their flag. Raising it in the morning, lowering at night, not letting it touch the ground and using much care in folding and storage. He had never seen anyone treat the symbol of their country with so much respect.

Is Patriotism conditional? I think it is.

[MUAD_DIB]

6. Depends on the circumstances.

Die for *: no.

Die for the flag(?): no ...it's a piece of cloth.

Die for the tenets of the Constitution or BORs: Yes.

Die to defend against a takeover by a tyrant: definatly.

[Spoonman]

7. Yes

Nothing personal, but that sounds like a "fairweather" attitude.
Patriotic principles do not wane with current events or administrations.
Patriotism is a commitment to the founding principles you are willing to defend with your life.
If threatened, I would without hesitation.

[Raenelle]

9. Patriotism is the belief that your country is the best

because you were born there. George Bernard Shaw.

And what if your country no longer even espouses, let alone follows, the founding principles? Would you have fought for Hitler if you were German? Without hesitation? Well, why bother to learn how to think. You only need to learn to salute.

[geniph]

8. A lot of countries have faced just that

I imagine there were plenty of patriotic Germans who still hated the Nazis, but did not want to give up on their country. There were plenty of Russians who detested the Bolsheviks, but loved Mother Russia too much to become emigres. It's happened to innumerable people over the centuries - patriotic Romans who faced the choice of abandoning the Rome they loved and were loyal to when it became dictatorial and tyrannical and everything they'd loved about their nation was stripped away.

It *can* happen here. I love my country, but not if it becomes a country where the Bill of Rights can be abridged, amended, ignored at will. Blind patriotism no matter what is just that - blind.

[Magical]

11. Imagine...

As John Lennon Sang...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

You see, eventually this (patriotism) nationalism thing is going to be irrelevant. Having lost our reverence for the natural world, Gaia will rise up and destroy the pestilence that is infecting her. This is the true evil, the destruction of the ecosystem that supports all of life.

I grieve the destruction of the natural world, the endless greed of which I am a part, and the lack of vision for our children's future.

That is why I support Dennis Kucinich, the only candidate with the vision to recognize the perilous threats to our ecosystem and our children's future.

[Squeech]

13. Will the real Nathan Hale please stand up?

The short answer is No.

But I would like to qualify that by saying that, while I wouldn't choose to die for my country (and certainly not for Halliburton's dividends or Smirky's poll numbers), I could envision sacrificing myself for the principles on which my country was originally founded, lo these many years ago. (Which is what I think Hale was trying to say, since at the time when they hanged him, we weren't even a country yet, we were still trying to implement the Declaration of Independence...)

I like to think that the United States of America stands out among countries in being based, not on a specific chunk of real estate, nor on a specific family with a presumed divine right, nor on specific clan relationships that are assumed with a given religion or national origin, but on a Constitution that carefully delimits the activities of the government in messing with the lives of the citizens.

Of course, it would be so hard to demonstrate conclusively what it was I was dying for-- all the more so after I was dead-- so I'm not planning to do any such thing. Hope this helps, however.

[LynneSin]

14. Read my sig line - Teddy said it best!!

you're a damn good patriotic person!

[MercutioATC]

15. My vote - your daughter is right.

Patriotism is love of one's country.
Nationalism is believing one's country can do no wrong.

You're lacking nationalism, not patriotism. That's a good thing.

[DS1]

16. Therefore you can not be a true patriot!

/mandatory freeper comment :7